Legend of Korra, Book 4: Too Graphic for TV

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Originally Posted by MLai

What I don't understand is that the 2 writers obviously understand the concept of anti-villains of misguided motivations, based on what they've been doing in ATLA and LOK. And they obviously know how to write. And they obviously want to tackle more complex subject matter for their aging audience.

So why is it so ****ing difficult for them to write a single arc where y'know, the villain may actually have a point, that is already set up by the worldbuilding they themselves have written? It's as if some masterful writer writes the first few episodes for each villain of each season, and then the Writing B-team comes in and ruins everything. And that point you have to actually work to write the villains wrong by going against the good flow already set up. But boy, do they know how to work. They got that work down to a science.

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It's one thing to endow all characters with apparently sympathetic motivations and legitimate politics, and its quite another to write a story where the "hero" or more accurately, the protagonist, fights antagonists with genuinely sympathetic motivations. As to why they don't:

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Originally Posted by Reverent-One

The most obvious answer is that they simply don't want to write that sort of arc and instead they want the villain to be a real bad guy and not have a point. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of media has definite good and bad guys.

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Its much harder to write a story where neither side is "evil" and fans can genuinely disagree about the correct course of action.

It is important to note, however, that in both the case of the Equalists and Unalaq, the creators thought they did have a point and wrote it into the story. That is why in season 2 Republic City has a democratically-elected (non-bender) President and why Korra keeps the gate opened after Harmonic Convergence.

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Originally Posted by Morty

Yes, I wouldn't expect much of Kuvira. She's been pretty good so far, but in the end she'll be proven evil and every good guy and gal will abandon her.

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I think it may be a matter of people here are expecting these stories to go into more mature themes than just about anything in anything resembling Korra's genre and it does. We are arguing if it would be a better story if they made Amon the voice of the oppressed even as he inflamed ethnic hatred, and Unalaq was doing spiritually necessary work even as he may have been going a little too far because these notes do already exist.

However, for Korra to go even farther, and remove the villain label entirely, to resolve the conflicts in the show with morally ambiguous choices by Team Avatar, is something that is simply untried, untested, and usually not even contemplated. The fact that so many people are even thinking about that sort of story is a testament to what Korra is, and it did all that on what is nominally kids show.

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Originally Posted by Reverent-One

The most obvious answer is that they simply don't want to write that sort of arc and instead they want the villian to be a real bad guy and not have a point. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of media has definite good and bad guys.

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That's my hope - that they keep playing to their strengths.

Spoiler: New episode

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So we have Korra with bits of metal still in her, going up against an extremely talented metalbender eventually.

Earth style bloodbending calling it now.

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Originally Posted by dehro

Spoiler: kuvira

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she keeps going from actually having a point to proving that's totally not what she's about. If she really was being all about the people and so on, she would have no reason at all to threaten Suyin and her city who are living in a relative utopia compared to the rest of the Kingdom. The fact that she's threatening her mother in law to be makes no sense from any standpoint other than to prove she's evil and drive the point home with the viewers. Her supposed to be genius fiancée is rather disappointing in this picture... Bolin is same old same old, picking his allies like a stupid person, because if Kuvira is manipilating bandits, I find it hard to believe he yet again manages to be oblivious to it all.. Anyway, Suyin's city is in no way a danger to kuvira's rule, so attacking it would be purely out of spite and thirst for power.. We get it, she's evil.

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Spoiler: Kuvira and her belief system

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You do not seem to understand Kuvira, she believes she has a divine right to rule. This Divine Right is not because she has a certain DNA or a certain family tree like the European Divine Right of Kings but instead the similar but very different China belief in the Mandate of Heaven. With this belief god chose the king/emporerer since they were the best, most talented, most skilled individual they were endowed by heaven a true son of heaven. Now this son of heaven in China is not literally a genetic demi god but instead a spiritual demi god kinda like a pope or other religious figure head.

Kuvira believes the Earth Queen got her just deserts for she let corruption remain (the earth bandits aasami and korra fought in season 3 as well as three tiered system of Ba Sing Se.

Suylin by constrast Kuvira is furious at she may have created heaven on earth with Zaofu but Suylin did not step up when hell descended on the earth kingdom. Suylin instead was isolationist and let needless people suffer and die unnecessarily. In Kuvira's mind Suylin is a mass murderer for she did nothing!!!

Thus Kuvira believes she needs to rescue Zaofu from itself and take control. Only by Suylin stepping down can a future tragedy be prevented sure everything looks peachy but when the going gets tough Suylin in leadership will only harm the citizens of Zaofu.

Kuvira believes she has an obligation to help people, literally a duty to do so.

Kuvira believes you should take freedom from people not for the sake of taking freedom, but because absolute freedom allows you to make [b]self-destruive[/I] actions. When you show that you can not be allowed to make truly wisely decisions you then surrender your self authority to decide. Kuvira does not see her camps as prisons but more like mental institutions. Furthermore she will not kill you unless she must for you are threatening others killing you then will be like a rabid dog. But if possible she rather restrain you and re-educate you it is not your fault you are not enlightened.


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Now why she uses bandits? She truly does not use bandits for an extended amount of time. One week or less per city. If there were bandits that attacked longer than that they were not her liege soldiers. That said she is not afraid to use subertufuge and a fake bandit attack to show the people that they need her and by bonding together with her they can form a stronger unit.

To use a metal analogy one piece of metal is weak, bendable, brittle but by bonding them together you can form chain mail or a metal alloy that is stronger than its parts.

Or use a military analogy. Individaul soldiers without discipline or order is a mob. Soldiers part of a regiment by contrast are useful and more capable. She believes she should be on top for she is the most capable..

That's an interesting theory, Ramza, but I don't think we've seen anything supporting it in the actual show.

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Originally Posted by Hyena

That's an interesting theory, Ramza, but I don't think we've seen anything supporting it in the actual show.

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QFT
.. whilst I agree it is an interesting interpretation that may hold some merit in the future should Kuvira give an indication that the motivation for her action comes from that direction, there is literally NOTHING so far that indicates this to be the case or supporting this interpretation. By contrast, everything we DO see on screen supports the fact that she's a, not at all subtly written, manipulative egomaniac criminal with a thirst for power and a considerable share of personal charisma who has inserted herself in the picture as an alternative to ineffective leadership.... practically textbook comic villain/dictator. Let's also not forget that aside from the poor districts in Ba Sing Se, the entirety of the earth kingdom was not hampered by the ineffective leadership at all, being often ruled by competent individuals such as Suyin, Bumi and other local authorities. Were it not for the chaos caused by Zaheer's actions and by Kuvira her own machinations (of which the effects we DO see on screen), the situation of the earth kingdom wouldn't be half as bad as it is, thereby not allowing her to gain so much support... pretty much the same tactics used by Amon, if with a different target.
To seek further interpretations behind her actions when nothing on screen hints that there should be one is somewhat futile. The villains on this show have all been rather straightforward in their depiction of themselves as manipulative evildoers with a plan... whilst their actions may on occasion have been misterious or hide their true goals, their motivations have always been rather directly spelled out on screen.

I like how Kuvira's just so petty about the whole suite thing

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Originally Posted by LaZodiac

I like the interpretation that Kuvira isn't evil, but is a villain. She's binding all of the Earth Kingdom under herself directly, but not because she's got any evil plot or anything. She just legitimately thinks she'd be a better ruler and it'd be better for the entire nation to stand united. She'll do anything she can to ensure they all get under her control, because after all her control is the best control, why would anyone want to be out of it. And like, to be FAIR, she IS doing good work here, we can plainly see that the Earth Nation is in pretty big chaos right about now.

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She seems LN, borderline LE. She's definitely not chaotic; she likes order and uniting a country. But her means seem neutrally apathetic at best.

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Originally Posted by dehro

Spoiler: kuvira

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she keeps going from actually having a point to proving that's totally not what she's about. If she really was being all about the people and so on, she would have no reason at all to threaten Suyin and her city who are living in a relative utopia compared to the rest of the Kingdom. The fact that she's threatening her mother in law to be makes no sense from any standpoint other than to prove she's evil and drive the point home with the viewers. Her supposed to be genius fiancée is rather disappointing in this picture... Bolin is same old same old, picking his allies like a stupid person, because if Kuvira is manipilating bandits, I find it hard to believe he yet again manages to be oblivious to it all.. Anyway, Suyin's city is in no way a danger to kuvira's rule, so attacking it would be purely out of spite and thirst for power.. We get it, she's evil.

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Spoiler: B4E3 Kuvira

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Kuvira isn't keeping Bolin in the loop about her plans, which means he is being manipulated, however, going after Zaofu isn't undiluted evil enough to make Kuvira perfectly clearly evil. After all the "Earth Kingdom" isn't really united if there's a big metal pimple holdout on the land. I think we have ways to go before all is revealed. I imagine Kuvira is going to engineer biological agents with the spirit vine.

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Originally Posted by Ramza00

Spoiler: B4E3 Kuvira and her belief system

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You do not seem to understand Kuvira, she believes she has a divine right to rule.

Kuvira believes the Earth Queen got her just deserts for she let corruption remain (the earth bandits aasami and korra fought in season 3 as well as three tiered system of Ba Sing Se.

In Kuvira's mind Suylin is a mass murderer for she did nothing!!!

Only by Suylin stepping down can a future tragedy be prevented sure everything looks peachy but when the going gets tough Suylin in leadership will only harm the citizens of Zaofu.

Kuvira believes she has an obligation to help people, literally a duty to do so.

Kuvira believes you should take freedom from people not for the sake of taking freedom, but because absolute freedom allows you to make [b]self-destruive[/I] actions. When you show that you can not be allowed to make truly wisely decisions you then surrender your self authority to decide.

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Spoiler: Kuvira's belief system B4E3

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I see no reason to read more into Kuvira's belief than that she is the strongest, most qualified, leader. She needs no deeper philosophy than what she espoused. She actually seems very unlikely to invoke "the spirits" (and no one ever speaks of heaven or "the divine" in Avatar). She believes in consolidating her power. There are notes in the story that this she does good for the people and that perhaps she thinks her power is good for the people, but I doubt that Kuvira cares much about the common people in the end.

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Originally Posted by Reddish Mage

Spoiler: B4E3 Kuvira

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Kuvira isn't keeping Bolin in the loop about her plans, which means he is being manipulated, however, going after Zaofu isn't undiluted evil enough to make Kuvira perfectly clearly evil. After all the "Earth Kingdom" isn't really united if there's a big metal pimple holdout on the land. I think we have ways to go before all is revealed. I imagine Kuvira is going to engineer biological agents with the spirit vine.

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Spoiler: B4E3 Kuvira

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Quite so. She's using the threat of force to get the Metal Clan to cooperate. It's a bit more direct than with the villages, but it's the same basic principle: intimidate those who stand in the way of unification, because everyone who stands against the grain weakens your unity. If Unity is her prime value, then she's more than willing to crack down on "dissendents".

She has an objective: make the Earth Kingdom strong and unified. She has a means: consolidate every part of the Earth Kingdom under her power. She has a motive: the instability and rampant chaos in the Earth Kingdom after the death of the Queen. In an interesting way, I think she's the polar opposite of Zaheer: she sees anarchy as tyranny, because those who don't possess power are at the mercy of those who do. For her, government and order seem like ways to guarantee the freedom of the oppressed. Or, at least, that's the line she can feed.

How much of that she believes is unclear, I think, but she could very well think of herself as a provider of stability and security that people dearly need, because in her worldview, freedom comes from stability.

Never mind that consolidating everyone under an iron fist is not that conducive to freedom, that's besides the point. :smalltongue:

Spoiler: S4 Ep3 lots and the eagles solution

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So doing the most logical thing instead of the best story telling thing...on the subject of trace metal. but why can they not get Katara up there with Toph and Korra? The easy solution to the problem is to restrain and blood bend Korra while Toph removes the metal.

I an kinda curious about why Kuvira is so set on keeping Bolin on her team though, clearly she values his contribution higher than almost anyone else we have seen so far.

And i wonder if its either because he has turned into some strange earth bending progegy, or if its because he is the outward face of her entire movement, used to generate goodwill..?

On a side note, Torph is bloody hilarious :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

I an kinda curious about why Kuvira is so set on keeping Bolin on her team though, clearly she values his contribution higher than almost anyone else we have seen so far.

And i wonder if its either because he has turned into some strange earth bending progegy, or if its because he is the outward face of her entire movement, used to generate goodwill..?

On a side note, Torph is bloody hilarious :smalltongue:

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Haven't seen the episode so this is all I can comment on. Remember guys, Bolin used to actually be a pretty high level thug for a gang in Republic city. Mako was the face, Bolin was the heavy. Dude's actually legitimately great at bending he's just surrounded by people who are leagues beyond him. And he's a Magma bender now, dude's kind of awesome.

AND he'd make a good face for the organization, having been a former movie star and guy who saved the world three times.

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Originally Posted by Ramza00

Spoiler: S4 Ep3 lots and the eagles solution

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So doing the most logical thing instead of the best story telling thing...on the subject of trace metal. but why can they not get Katara up there with Toph and Korra? The easy solution to the problem is to restrain and blood bend Korra while Toph removes the metal.

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Yes, but I highly doubt Katara would want to bloodbend again, even if it IS to help the Avatar. She hated having to do it that first time, and that actually WAS to save Aang.

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Originally Posted by Razanir

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Yes, but I highly doubt Katara would want to bloodbend again, even if it IS to help the Avatar. She hated having to do it that first time, and that actually WAS to save Aang.

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Spoiler: another reason not to do it

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also, there's no way to tell if it would work or rather do more damage.
the risk would be to end up pulling a fantastic 4 kind of situation, where two forces (her being held in place by katara and Toph scraping bits of metal sludge through her frozen solid body) would contend with one another... add Korra's own strength and physical reaction, and she might well break into pieces or do some serious damage... kind of like how Von Doom was playing around with his chemistry 101 lesson.

Spoiler: Spoiler

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It sounded to me more like Korra was bending the metal in her body at the same time Toph was causing damage, which then caused her to move rather than her moving causing the damage.

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Originally Posted by Ramza00

Spoiler: S4 Ep3 lots and the eagles solution

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So doing the most logical thing instead of the best story telling thing...on the subject of trace metal. but why can they not get Katara up there with Toph and Korra? The easy solution to the problem is to restrain and blood bend Korra while Toph removes the metal.

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Doesn't help if Korra still can't pull herself together mentally.

I just hope they don't Worf Toph into Kuvira...

Spoiler: also...

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Wouldn't using the roots to keep tabs on everything be more of a waterbender trick?

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Originally Posted by Razanir

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Yes, but I highly doubt Katara would want to bloodbend again, even if it IS to help the Avatar. She hated having to do it that first time, and that actually WAS to save Aang.

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Also not being a member of Yakone's bloodline, Katara can only bloodbend during a full moon, which only happens around once a month. If there's just been a full moon, they'd have to wait nearly a whole month to treat Korra with bloodbending, it's just not reliable even if Katara was inclined to use it at all. Even after learning it from Hama, she only got one opportunity to use it again in The Southern Raiders.

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Originally Posted by Fjolnir

I just hope they don't Worf Toph into Kuvira...

Spoiler: also...

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Wouldn't using the roots to keep tabs on everything be more of a waterbender trick?

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Well tree's also are kind of earthy in a way, but then again what's to stop earth benders from bone bending and such the earthy bits in ones living body? *shrugs* They're getting a little bit sloppy with what each element can and cannot do though. The writers are treating metal bending like being able to bend metal itself now, rather than the earth impurities in it.

I also really enjoyed Toph, although I hope she doesn't stick around too much longer. I'd never considered her and Kuvira going up against each other, I hope they don't do that.

I do like the fact that according to Toph

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neither of her daughters are all that good at metalbending

Considering she could probably still fold one of the antimetalbending mechs from the first season?

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Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem

Spoiler: B4E3 Kuvira

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She has an objective: make the Earth Kingdom strong and unified. She has a means: consolidate every part of the Earth Kingdom under her power. She has a motive: the instability and rampant chaos in the Earth Kingdom after the death of the Queen. In an interesting way, I think she's the polar opposite of Zaheer: she sees anarchy as tyranny, because those who don't possess power are at the mercy of those who do. For her, government and order seem like ways to guarantee the freedom of the oppressed. Or, at least, that's the line she can feed.

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It would be an interesting foil to Zaheer if Kuvira actually believed it.
With equal screentime, we could have been shown Kuvira as an ultimately good person, or a person who is dedicated to social order, or the patriotic ideal of the Earth Nation as a great force. But the actual depiction of her is as a person only interested in personal power, and who treads the path of extreme order (dictatorship) in order to achieve personal power.
Amon (and Zaheer) may have been mishandled but at least he did believe in his ultimate goal.

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Originally Posted by MLai

It would be an interesting foil to Zaheer if Kuvira actually believed it.
With equal screentime, we could have been shown Kuvira as an ultimately good person, or a person who is dedicated to social order, or the patriotic ideal of the Earth Nation as a great force. But the actual depiction of her is as a person only interested in personal power, and who treads the path of extreme order (dictatorship) in order to achieve personal power.
Amon (and Zaheer) may have been mishandled but at least he did believe in his ultimate goal.

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I'm not sure how you would have liked Zaheer to be handled but your analysis of Kuvira here is on point. It would be interesting if Kuvira was a true believer in some sort of extreme authoritarian philosophy, but she doesn't seem very philosophical, she seems to believe only in her own power.

She is meant as a foil for Korra, and she is a good one, as Korra has been made to doubt her own power.

Overall the handling of Zaheer was alright, but towards the end the writers started feeling that they've been making him look too good, and started having him kick puppies in order to make sure we braindead viewers understand that he is eeevil.

For example, there is absolutely no reason for him to plan to kill all of the airbending disciples even after his demands were met. Or beat the crap out of Tenzhin; as a martial artist there are much cleaner and faster ways to incapacitate your opponent after he's already been rendered defenseless. He went ghetto on Tenzhin purely for evulz.

In fact, if I was handling Zaheer, the only real change I would make is basically to make him refrain from killing or causing serious hurt except where it was his aim (Earth Queen and Korra). I would have included a couple of fights where for example maybe he had the chance to kill/ hurt someone like Bolin or Kya, but instead chose not to. Or maybe even for example save Bolin from falling to his death, etc. It would also help keep his possible intentions on Korra mysterious, and make it more impactful when it's revealed that he wants to kill her.

Spoiler: Theories on why

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Toph can listen to the swamp.

Theory 1:

Cloudbending exists. I'm not sure how much of it was Aang and Katara working together and combining the elements, but it seems plausible that airbenders and waterbenders could individually bend clouds.

Lavabending exists. It seems to be a similar combination of earth- and firebending. We've seen earthbenders do it own their own, and we might have seen firebenders as well. Although to be fair, the only firebenders we've seen do it have been Avatars. But that list includes Unnamed Fire Avatar, so it seems plausible that it's a firebending technique as well.

Perhaps there are similar combinations for other elements. Water/Earth could be mudbending, of course. But with this theory, I could also see communicating with plants and the earth as being a joint water-earth technique.

Theory 2: Perhaps it's just a skill available to anyone who's really spiritual. They never actually said she was plantbending like Huu.

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Originally Posted by Razanir

Theory 1:
Theory 2:

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Theory 3: Plants communicate to each other and to insects via sounds that are inaudible to normal humans.
http://www.livescience.com/27802-pla...ith-sound.html

Theory 4: She's gained Global Blind sight due to enlightenment as an old swamp hermit.

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Originally Posted by MLai

Theory 3: Plants communicate to each other and to insects via sounds that are inaudible to normal humans.
http://www.livescience.com/27802-pla...ith-sound.html

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no. this has been one of those fringe ideas since forever and no, livescience is not a good source.

did anyone else notice:

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they just broke the rules by having kuvira metal bend a gold medallion?

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Originally Posted by LaZodiac

Theory 4: She's gained Global Blind sight due to Toph being that awesome and the only way to improve awesome is with more awesome.

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Corrected for you.

So lets be honest. Toph vs Amon. Sure Amon can blood bend her like Yakone did but if Toph was in the crowd when Amon was having one of his rallies no one would know why suddenly Amon is below the Boulder on the Bender scale. If Mako and Korra and acquire chi blocking costumes so can Toph and Toph does not need to actually see in such getup. Top brings new meaning to the campaign ending with "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies."