Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mastikator
The breath weapon should've been a factor for the rogue. Evasion only applies to dex saves where if you succeed you take half damage. A green dragon's breath weapon is constitution save for half.
The second thing to do is use legendary action to fly 40 feet into the air, if the dragon starts on the ground then after the first player ends their turn the dragon is now 40 feet up.
Hey that's one great call out that could have changed everything. You're right that the Green dragon has Con saves instead of Dex like the rest of them. I missed that completely. In the second combat the Rogue took one breath weapon and passed it's Dex save for no damage when it should have done a Con save for half. I don't remember now what that roll was or if it would have passed the Con save or not, but it potentially could have KO'd the Rogue. The Rogue still had +3 to Con saves + Bless + Ring of Protection + Lucky so there's a reasonable chance it would have passed anyway. The Rogue also has 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer so could have also added 2d4 to that save if needed. I never had to use Favored by the Gods. The Rogue would have survived half damage, but would have rolled a Con check to keep Bless up.
In the first combat, during the Rogue's turn I had it roll Perception to assess it's surroundings as it wasn't close enough to attack anybody at that time. I could have had it do it's Wing Attack against nobody just to fly up, and maybe I should have, but I felt like it was a "get away from me" ATTACK option that didn't make sense with the closest enemies 40ft away. The Barb was 2nd in the turn order and immediately grappled it. I think that was just lucky. Had ANY other character gone next and attacked the dragon, I would have had it fly up for sure.
Yes I swapped dragons last minute rolling a D6 to see what dragon color we fought. Honestly I thought a Red would be too hard so gave the options to face the slightly weaker ones instead.
I'll redo it using a Red next time, and I'll start with much more distance. That will give the party a couple rounds to get going and see if I can come up with a better strategy for the Bard. I can also give the Barb a longbow. The Pyro Sorcerer has Eldritch Blast from Spell Sniper so it can hit from 240ft and also not HAVE to spend all Sorcery points on Transmute Spell. I could even "cheat" and swap out one of her metamagic's for Distant Spell which she doesn't have lol.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
It is worth noting that a breath attack from above is a circle with a diameter equal to the length of the cone (60ft). That is a lot of space to split up - essentially needing each member more than 60ft apart to not have multiple hit. Consider that if the party is that split up, the dragon should probably go in for the kill on one with legendary tail attacks and normal attacks - it probably kills any non-Barb from that alone. If the rest of the party come to try and help, well thats the perfect time to fly up and breath down on them - then come back once recharged, ready to either breath on them all again or pick off the next loner.
The Rogue should still not be able to catch up without Haste - both would have 80ft fly speed without Wing Attack, so no closing. With Wing Attack thrown in its not even close. A light-crossbow attack would be pitiful; even if it beats the 19AC, there is no Sneak Attack to add to it - you are looking at single digit damage IF it lands. If the Rogue does follow solo, a single round of 3 Tail Attacks, 1 Bite, and 2 Claw Attacks is likely to dissuade a second attempt. Also, consider whether you would rule the Rogue is using the wings to fly or if they are just for show - Wing Attack knocking the Rogue prone could be devastating with the former.
The Fighter is using a Longbow; is it still a Strength Fighter? How is it hitting with low Dex, likely no Archery Fighting Style, and Disadvantage against 19AC? Then its, two attacks? Four on an Action Surge. Each hit that does manage to land doing single digit damage.
Barb is still, well Barb.
Sorcerer has some damage output with Fireball - about even chance it fails the Save. Got a few of those in the tank, problem is the 150ft range - the dragon can actually avoid it totally if it gets the distances right, but presuming it doesn't, that is one Fireball for every Breath. So, 14/28 damage average in trade. Distant Spell would help for sure, although, against a Red dragon that means no Transmuted Spell so...
Bard we don't much about. The spell list has nothing to attack with at appreciable distances. Best bet would be if they were a Glamour Bard and took two Level 3 (or lower) spells from another class list - Haste (for the Rogue) and Rope Trick would probably be best, heh.
Actually, if the Bard and Sorc had Haste and Fly (whichever has whichever) and could keep it going (Rope Trick!), then the Swashbuckler Rogue might actually stand a chance here: 60ft Fly Speed from Fly, Doubled to 120ft from Haste, Cunning Action Dash to make it 240ft, Haste Dash to make it 360ft - the Swashbuckler Rogue can maintain a distance of around 180ft from the Dragon hitting and running (flying?), while not suffering opportunity attacks. Mobile can make it up to 420ft, for a comfortable retreat range of 210ft, which puts the Rogue even out of movement+Breath range.
The dragon could Ready actions, though. The dragon may Ready Breaths, but seeing it miss will probably just Ready Bite. If the dragon does do this (and it makes sense it would try to attack the superspeed Rogue chasing it when it gets the chance), then it depends on how many rounds it takes for the Booming Blade + Sneak Attack combo to kill the dragon. Given you have a 55% chance of hitting (+9) against 19AC, and the dragon has ~250hp: you are looking at about 35-40 damage per hit on average for the BB+SA, so say 6 successful attacks, about 11 rounds on average then. Bless would help, but Sorc and Bard are busy Concentrating already. You could Bless yourself (with the 1 Cleric level), but thats an action and you could lose it easily to a Breath that connects or even just a Bite. The dragon only needs about 2.2 Breaths or 3.5 Bites or some combination to kill the Rogue, and it is very likely to hit with the Bites (about a 80% chance) and not terribly unlikely to get the Breath to hit (35% chance) - Bite is preferable. Probably kill the Rogue in 5 rounds easily. Eh, was worth a try.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aimeryan
It is worth noting that a breath attack from above is a circle with a diameter equal to the length of the cone (60ft). That is a lot of space to split up - essentially needing each member more than 60ft apart to not have multiple hit. Consider that if the party is that split up, the dragon should probably go in for the kill on one with legendary tail attacks and normal attacks - it probably kills any non-Barb from that alone. If the rest of the party come to try and help, well thats the perfect time to fly up and breath down on them - then come back once recharged, ready to either breath on them all again or pick off the next loner.
The Rogue should still not be able to catch up without Haste - both would have 80ft fly speed without Wing Attack, so no closing. With Wing Attack thrown in its not even close. A light-crossbow attack would be pitiful; even if it beats the 19AC, there is no Sneak Attack to add to it - you are looking at single digit damage IF it lands. If the Rogue does follow solo, a single round of 3 Tail Attacks, 1 Bite, and 2 Claw Attacks is likely to dissuade a second attempt. Also, consider whether you would rule the Rogue is using the wings to fly or if they are just for show - Wing Attack knocking the Rogue prone could be devastating with the former.
The Fighter is using a Longbow; is it still a Strength Fighter? How is it hitting with low Dex, likely no Archery Fighting Style, and Disadvantage against 19AC? Then its, two attacks? Four on an Action Surge. Each hit that does manage to land doing single digit damage.
Barb is still, well Barb.
Sorcerer has some damage output with Fireball - about even chance it fails the Save. Got a few of those in the tank, problem is the 150ft range - the dragon can actually avoid it totally if it gets the distances right, but presuming it doesn't, that is one Fireball for every Breath. So, 14/28 damage average in trade. Distant Spell would help for sure, although, against a Red dragon that means no Transmuted Spell so...
Bard we don't much about. The spell list has nothing to attack with at appreciable distances. Best bet would be if they were a Glamour Bard and took two Level 3 (or lower) spells from another class list - Haste (for the Rogue) and Rope Trick would probably be best, heh.
Actually, if the Bard and Sorc had Haste and Fly (whichever has whichever) and could keep it going (Rope Trick!), then the Swashbuckler Rogue might actually stand a chance here: 60ft Fly Speed from Fly, Doubled to 120ft from Haste, Cunning Action Dash to make it 240ft, Haste Dash to make it 360ft - the Swashbuckler Rogue can maintain a distance of around 180ft from the Dragon hitting and running (flying?), while not suffering opportunity attacks. Mobile can make it up to 420ft, for a comfortable retreat range of 210ft, which puts the Rogue even out of movement+Breath range.
The dragon could Ready actions, though. The dragon may Ready Breaths, but seeing it miss will probably just Ready Bite. If the dragon does do this (and it makes sense it would try to attack the superspeed Rogue chasing it when it gets the chance), then it depends on how many rounds it takes for the Booming Blade + Sneak Attack combo to kill the dragon. Given you have a 55% chance of hitting (+9) against 19AC, and the dragon has ~250hp: you are looking at about 35-40 damage per hit on average for the BB+SA, so say 6 successful attacks, about 11 rounds on average then. Bless would help, but Sorc and Bard are busy Concentrating already. You could Bless yourself (with the 1 Cleric level), but thats an action and you could lose it easily to a Breath that connects or even just a Bite. The dragon only needs about 2.2 Breaths or 3.5 Bites or some combination to kill the Rogue, and it is very likely to hit with the Bites (about a 80% chance) and not terribly unlikely to get the Breath to hit (35% chance) - Bite is preferable. Probably kill the Rogue in 5 rounds easily. Eh, was worth a try.
Ok I see another way I was messing up. I was giving the Swashbuckler Sneak Attack on the Light Crossbow attack, but reading it again, you have to be within 5ft of the enemy to use Rakish Audacity so you're right, no Sneak Attack.
The Fighter has 20 Str and 16 Dex, and the Defense Fighting Style. It was also both Blessed and Hasted, and often has an Inspiration die too. That's not terrible conditions for a longbow.
The Bard is a Lore Bard, most of her spells are save or suck, and she's loaded with concentration spells. She's extremely dangerous on enemies lacking Legendary Resistance, but with that dragon, I was struggling to find useful spells to cast with her. Outside of Healing Word, Mass Healing Word, and Revivify, she doesn't have a lot of party buffs. Enlarge/Reduce and Polymorgh and I guess Greater Invisibility are it.
The Swashbuckler has 1 level of Divine Soul Sorcerer and almost always uses one of her 2 spell slots on Bless.
You gave me idea that maybe the Sorcerer should twin Haste on the Rogue and the Fighter and not the Barb
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Another thought on the Fighter front, how is it getting 6 attacks in a round? Extra Attack + Action Surge (Extra Attack) + Hasted Attack is only 5.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GeneralVryth
Another thought on the Fighter front, how is it getting 6 attacks in a round? Extra Attack + Action Surge (Extra Attack) + Hasted Attack is only 5.
I was giving him the Hasted attack again on the Action Surge. Is that not correct?
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CTurbo
I was giving him the Hasted attack again on the Action Surge. Is that not correct?
Nope. Haste grants an extra action, but with a more limited option set (and if used to attack, it you can only make one attack regardless of Extra Attack). It's basically a weaker version of Action Surge on the action front. All that said, does it matter? It's 1 out of 6. If you made Haste so it just gave +1 attack on the attack action and you can no longer take the attack action with the hasted action, it probably would still be fine (a buff to martials primarily).
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Ok guys I just re-ran this using an adult red and I think we got incredibly lucky but we killed it on the last turn of the 3rd round.
I started us off in a grassy field area of mostly rocky terrain and the dragon some 300ft+ away. Initial perception checks we learned that it was a dragon, but not what color or how big. The next perception check we learned it was red and huge. We started our prebuffs and the Aasimar did it's transformation thing. The Rogue and Fighter were Hasted, and the Rogue, Fighter, and Sorc were Blessed. The Barb was Enlarged. The Barb's extended homebrewed wild magic table resulted in him having a flying speed equal to his walking speed which I thought was very lucky, but honestly ended up not making as much of an impact as I thought it would. Bard does Inspiring Leader for +13 temp HP
The party scatters pre-Int. As soon as the dragon was 120ft way, it used Frightening Presence and we rolled Int. Only the Rogue and Sorc failed the save and were frightened but only for 1 round.
Party positions - Fighter and Barb in the middle of the field, but Barb is 40ft up, Rogue is flying 40ft to the left, Sorc is 30ft to the right, Bard ran 30ft back. Dragon 120ft ahead of Fighter 60-70ft up.
Round 1
1 Rogue readies action to shoot light crossbow when dragons enters range. Passes save for Frightened.
2 Fighter shoots 5 longbow shots hitting 4 of them. 4d8+12 damage
3 Bard readies action to use all 7 charges of her wand of magic missile.
4 Dragon flies forward taking 1d8+5+9 damage from the Rogue and 9d4+9 damage from Magic Missile. Dragon used breath weapon on Fighter and Barb who both fail save taking 60 damage. Barb accidentally casts Absorb Elements and takes half damage. Nothing exciting happened on the Wild Magic table. The dragon continues it's 80ft movement and is now between the Bard and the Barb and Fighter with the Rogue being about 60ft away. Did NOT recharge it's breath weapon.
5 Barb starts turn 60ft away and flies forward 40ft and hit with 2 hand axes for 2d6+2d4+14 damage.
6 Sorc hits with 1 out of 2 Eldritch Blasts at disadvantage for 1d10 damage and passes the save for Frightened. Moves another 30ft away from things.
Round 2
1 Rogue starts turn 60ft away and uses extra move action from Haste to reach the dragon and hit it with Booming Blade for 2d8+4d6+5+9 damage and then dashes 40ft away.
2 Fighter hits 2 out of 3 longbow shots for 2d8+8 damage. Uses Second Wind for +8 HP.
3 Bard casts Synaptic Static. Dragon fails save but chooses to succeed instead for half of 8d6 damage. Bard runs 30ft back.
4 Dragon flies straight to the Rogue and misses it's bite attack but hits twice with claw attacks for 2d6+8 damage twice. Rogue Uncanny Dodge for half damage of the first hit. Did NOT recharge breath weapon. Dragon takes extra 2d8 from Booming Blade.
5 Barb uses action to dash to reach the dragon, but can't do anything else. Dragon attacks Barb with Tail for half of 2d8+8 damage
6 Sorc hit 4 times with Eldritch Blast for 4d10 damage. Dragon uses Wing Attack against Rogue and Barb, and much to my surprise, they BOTH fail the save, both take 2d6+8 damage, both fall from the sky for 6d6 damage, and are prone. Barb uses Stone's Endurance to cut damage by 10. Rogue drops Bless. Dragon flies 40ft up
Round 3
1 Rogue stands up, moves and dashes toward dragon and hits with 1 out of 2 light crossbow attacks for 1d8+5+9 damage
2 Fighter hits with 1 out of 3 longbow attacks for 1d8+4 damage
3 Bard moves toward the Fighter to get in range and casts Mass Healing Word on the Fighter, Rogue, and Barb for +7HP
4 Dragon flies straight for the Rogue as it's closest and hits the Rogue with all 3 attacks.
5 Barb stands up, flies towards the dragon but can't reach. Hits with Chaos Bolt for 2d8+1d6 Poison damage. Dragon hits Rogue with Tail attack.
6 Sorc moves within 150ft and cast Fireball Transmute damage to cold damage and dragon chooses to save, but was killed anyway.
The Rogue was nearly dead, the Fighter and Barb were at maybe half heath. We got lucky that it never was able to recharge it's breath as that probably would have KO'd a couple of characters.
Dragon tactics were stay in the air hoping to rely on breath weapon more. Hasting the Rogue was a great idea, but the Rogue would not have survived another hit. If the Barb would have gotten another turn it would have reach the dragon and attempted a grapple which would have been interesting. After KOing the Rogue, the dragon would have likely went for the Fighter next and probably could have killed him in one turn.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Again though, you're really just treating it as stand and fight type of combat on both sides. Dragons fly, fast, and have a ranged huge aoe weapon, and this one has 16 Int - it isn't going to stay there trading blows when it can out speed everyone but the Hasted Rogue (which can't retreat far enough away to not suffer the multiattack + a Tail Attack). Also really surprised that with a 60ft diameter circle it can not hit more than two people, but the whole party are all able to attack a high up dragon the same round - it seems like it firing the breath horizontally and then heading into the middle of the group (for some reason?).
Some of the damage also seems off - can't place the +9 on the Rogue's attack, also Fighter seems to have an added damage point per attack but that probably just a +1 Longbow. Fighter should hit about 1 in 4 on average with Disadvantage, maybe 1 in 3, so either getting lucky or again the dragon is staying close for no real reason (it can either just outrange and breath or take on the Rogue essentially solo). If the Dragon recognises a Hasted opponent (which should be obvious to a 16 Int dragon) it is likely to either deal with that opponent first or take out what appears to be the caster (hint, not the Fighter in plate and a Longbow, not the Barb with axes).
Honestly, this dragon is fighting like it has an Int of 6 or is a World of Warcraft boss. It has complete control to outmaneuver the enemy and the intelligence to take out the casters to drop the buffs, after which it is basically uncatchable flying around breathing to death the rest of the party at leisure. Or, fly away and deal with the Hasted Rogue solo (which without Fly doesn't have the speed to retreat safely after a melee attack - and one round of the dragon getting to do it whole attack routine soundly kills the Rogue, two rounds maybe if it needs to use Wing Attack to close), then come back at leisure to mop up the others.
My last analysis, I did forget about Uncanny Dodge - that would double (less any lucky breaths) the number of rounds required to kill the Rogue (because the dragon can only Ready one attack), which should grab a win for the party (likely the dragon flying away after just managing to kill the Rogue rather than risking low HP on potential Longbow crits and low damage but long range spells when it comes in for a breath attack). That said, I also presumed the dragon would always move for the Booming Blade, which is not actually needed as the rest of the party cannot get in range after just a short flight upwards, and it would not be able to outfly the Hasted Fly Mobile Rogue - so why move once reached a decent height, since it can only attack anyway by Readying for when the Rogue gets in close? That would increase the number of rounds the Rogue needs to kill the dragon (or get it low enough to force it to flee after killing the Rogue), so putting it back in the not likely to succeed category (lucky Rogue crits over and over aside, naturally).
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aimeryan
Again though, you're really just treating it as stand and fight type of combat on both sides. Dragons fly, fast, and have a ranged huge aoe weapon, and this one has 16 Int - it isn't going to stay there trading blows when it can out speed everyone but the Hasted Rogue (which can't retreat far enough away to not suffer the multiattack + a Tail Attack). Also really surprised that with a 60ft diameter circle it can not hit more than two people, but the whole party are all able to attack a high up dragon the same round - it seems like it firing the breath horizontally and then heading into the middle of the group (for some reason?).
Some of the damage also seems off - can't place the +9 on the Rogue's attack, also Fighter seems to have an added damage point per attack but that probably just a +1 Longbow. Fighter should hit about 1 in 4 on average with Disadvantage, maybe 1 in 3, so either getting lucky or again the dragon is staying close for no real reason (it can either just outrange and breath or take on the Rogue essentially solo). If the Dragon recognises a Hasted opponent (which should be obvious to a 16 Int dragon) it is likely to either deal with that opponent first or take out what appears to be the caster (hint, not the Fighter in plate and a Longbow, not the Barb with axes).
Honestly, this dragon is fighting like it has an Int of 6 or is a World of Warcraft boss. It has complete control to outmaneuver the enemy and the intelligence to take out the casters to drop the buffs, after which it is basically uncatchable flying around breathing to death the rest of the party at leisure. Or, fly away and deal with the Hasted Rogue solo (which without Fly doesn't have the speed to retreat safely after a melee attack - and one round of the dragon getting to do it whole attack routine soundly kills the Rogue, two rounds maybe if it needs to use Wing Attack to close), then come back at leisure to mop up the others.
My last analysis, I did forget about Uncanny Dodge - that would double (less any lucky breaths) the number of rounds required to kill the Rogue (because the dragon can only Ready one attack), which should grab a win for the party (likely the dragon flying away after just managing to kill the Rogue rather than risking low HP on potential Longbow crits and low damage but long range spells when it comes in for a breath attack). That said, I also presumed the dragon would always move for the Booming Blade, which is not actually needed as the rest of the party cannot get in range after just a short flight upwards, and it would not be able to outfly the Hasted Fly Mobile Rogue - so why move once reached a decent height, since it can only attack anyway by Readying for when the Rogue gets in close? That would increase the number of rounds the Rogue needs to kill the dragon (or get it low enough to force it to flee after killing the Rogue), so putting it back in the not likely to succeed category (lucky Rogue crits over and over aside, naturally).
We're using the Volo's Protector Aasimar which can deal Radiant damage equal to it's level once per round.
The Fighter has a 16 Dex, +1 Longbow, and was also Blessed for the first 2 rounds. It also had 1 or 2 Inspiration dice at one point. It never took a shot with disadvantage. Why would it have disadvantage? It passed the save for Frightened Presence.
The dragon DID focus on the most dangerous opponent which was the Rogue, and the only reason the Rogue survived 3 rounds is Uncanny Dodge which it used 3 times to nullify quite a bit of damage. Inspiring Leader and that one heal from Mass healing Word were critical too. I think the Rogue had 10hp left at the end.
The fast flying dragon was able to stay away from and out maneuver the Large flying Goliath Barbarian who was mostly useless for 2 out of 3 rounds. I still can't believe that both the Barb with Advantage and Rogue with Bless AND Lucky failed the Wing Attack save. I disagree with the ruling that they should fall to the ground prone from that, but went with it anyway ruling in the dragon's favor.
In the end I think the party was lucky that the dragon never was able to recharge it's breath weapon and only hit 2 PCs with Frightening Presence who promptly saved.
The whole point to this exercise was white room combat to the death in which I didn't think the party would win. Yes if I was DMing the dragon in a campaign it would have simply flown away until it recharged it's breath weapon each time, and also would have retreated for good once it got so low on HP.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CTurbo
It never took a shot with disadvantage. Why would it have disadvantage? It passed the save for Frightened Presence.
Longbow range is 150/600ft - the first number is the normal range it operates in, the second number is the range at which it can operate in but under Disadvantage.
Yeah, I mean, if you play the dragon as a brute then it loses most of its advantages. Using its maneuveability to stay away from multiple enemies and engage them on its terms is how such an intelligent creature would act. In this instance it means either separating and dealing with them piecemeal, or only (re)engaging when it can use its huge aoe weapon. It is essentially a fast aerial bomber, not a hippo.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aimeryan
Yeah, I mean, if you play the dragon as a brute then it loses most of its advantages. Using its maneuveability to stay away from multiple enemies and engage them on its terms is how such an intelligent creature would act. In this instance it means either separating and dealing with them piecemeal, or only (re)engaging when it can use its huge aoe weapon. It is essentially a fast aerial bomber, not a hippo.
I wonder how many GMs actually play dragons this way, as opposed to just playing it like a video game npc.
Anecdotally I see a lot of differences in various groups and its not entirely clear to me who has the right of it.
Playing monsters intelligently can be extremely frustrating to certain groups when you hit something that can essentially infinitely kite/stealth/avoid you (as that sets up future incentives to cheese such fight with 1 turn surprise kill tactics), so the answer isn’t completely straightforward if the goal is to maximize the fun factor.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
To be fair, if I was DMing this dragon in an actual campaign, I would have most definitely had it retreat once it dropped so low in hit points. Dragons are not going to willingly fight to the death in 99% of cases. Other than NOT running away when badly wounded, I don't feel like I ran it THAT poorly. It successfully avoided melee range with the Fighter and Barb, and it did focus on the most dangerous character, the Rogue almost killing it.
The point of this was could our party survive an encounter with an adult red dragon and then could they actually kill one. I was very skeptical, but responses were mostly favorable in the party's favor due to action economy. I was surprised our party was able to kill it at all, and we probably wouldn't have had it been able to recharge it's breath weapon.
If I was to run this again as another white room fight to the death, I would maybe have it use it's fire breath, and then retreat until it recharged each time. I also didn't feel right using it's Wing Attack with no enemies around simply to get the extra movement. Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't make sense.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CTurbo
I also didn't feel right using it's Wing Attack with no enemies around simply to get the extra movement. Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't make sense.
Mentally change its name to "Wing Thrust" or "Wing Burst" without touching the mechanics and it'll feel better. 'cos ultimately all it is is a big wave of their wings which results in lots of air and a burst of speed. Calling it an "attack" makes it seem like it's solely an offense thing. Which, it can be, but doesn't need to.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Any 1 v 6 fight is absolutely in favor of the 6 - it really is that simple. However, IF the dragon is clever (hi INT and WIS stats would lead you to believe it is), it ought to take max advantage of its LA and superior fly speed w/ breath weapon and frightful presence to help mitigate the party's numerical advantage.
Personally I always look for good opportunities for my dragons to grapple one PC and fly off with them - it's a nasty option.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
da newt
Any 1 v 6 fight is absolutely in favor of the 6 - it really is that simple. However, IF the dragon is clever (hi INT and WIS stats would lead you to believe it is), it ought to take max advantage of its LA and superior fly speed w/ breath weapon and frightful presence to help mitigate the party's numerical advantage.
Personally I always look for good opportunities for my dragons to grapple one PC and fly off with them - it's a nasty option.
I did this last year. The rest of the Players were a bit non-plussed at first. Note that the soon-to-be-grappled player had told me that he was going to be out for a few weeks, and I stumbled over this idea for how a dragon becomes a threat to the party, but also flies away when the action economy you mention leaps out at him and he's like "this isn't working!"
Dumb luck on the timing.
The other players hunted the dragon down and (through good planning) killed it. Adult green dragon. Yes, the monk eventually got through the LAs and stunned it ... so it goes.
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
"The other players hunted the dragon down and (through good planning) killed it. Adult green dragon. Yes, the monk eventually got through the LAs and stunned it ... so it goes."
IME as the BBED flies away w/ one of the party, the dynamic changes significantly - this isn't just a 1 v 6 fight for the party anymore, this is a can we rescue the grappled PC before the dragon eats them?, and next time we face it it's a 1 v 5 and we all know it will take one of you and end you ...
Re: How many level 9 PCs needed to be able to kill an adult red dragon?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
da newt
IME as the BBED flies away w/ one of the party, the dynamic changes significantly - this isn't just a 1 v 6 fight for the party anymore, this is a can we rescue the grappled PC before the dragon eats them?, and next time we face it it's a 1 v 5 and we all know it will take one of you and end you ...
Yes, the dragon got away and they had to hunt him down. Being able to stop the dragon's escape/flight takes a few particular abilities (given the speed differential and Legendary Saves).
The dragon had no intention of eating the PC (the party did not know this, also, the cleric had access to raise dead) but rather using the hostage as leverage to deal with the party. (That's how I outlined the green dragon's motivations ...). Something like an extortion deal.
One of the neat aspects of the party's tracking the dragon down was how the Barbarian (totem path) used Commune with Nature. A ritual at level 10.
The party had to focus fire on the Warlock (Archfey, Volo's) during the battle (he was riding on the dragon's back).
With the loss of that ally, the dragon needed its lair to help defend itself versus the party.
(They were able to evade or handle most of the minions...good tactics and good use of Suggestion by the bard...).
