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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I agree with veti; people's willingness to take Tarquin at his word is mystifying.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
You people are so...so...so mindlessly vindictive.
So Tarquin has already won. Why is it that the only way to counter this is to murder him and his legacy in increasingly brutal and/or ignominious ways?
**** Tarquin losing. I just want Elan to win. What's the best revenge, again?
(Besides, the only way to make Tarquin lose is to lead him to the realization that he's been playing the wrong game all this time. You don't do that by completing his narrative and killing him off.)
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
I agree with veti; people's willingness to take Tarquin at his word is mystifying.
Generally, when characters reveal their plans, intentions and viewpoints, in is not only for their in-universe listeners, but also for the audience, so that they get a better grasp of the character's personality. Yes, the characters, especially villains, may subtly deceive, but they will not outright lie with a sincere face.
Consider Redcloak here. How many people think he lied to Tsukiko about his plans? And he had every reason to lie (like, so she won't spill the beans to Twelve Gods in her afterlife). Yet somehow it's obvious he didn't and it was the real deal.
Why should Tarquin revealing his plan be any different?
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
You know what would be cool? If Tarquin killed Xykon via deus ex machina, winked at the viewers, and then drove off in a luxury car with two European models while screaming "I win everything! Take that, forum hatedom!"
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2323mike
Why should Tarquin revealing his plan be any different?
Because Tarquin is, as the saying goes, a lying liar who lies. That is part of his characterization - he is manipulative, insincere, and always has a Plan E. It would strike me as at least mildly jarring if he freely admitted everything to Elan - who, son or not, is his antagonist - in the first place, and all the more so if what he was admitting was that - at least until Elan came along - he did not have a backup plan.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Well, Tarquin has a soft spot for Elan. Despite being used to a life of manipulation and deceit, Tarquin still thinks Elan is
a) highly competent hero
b) leader of his party
c) the more active one in his relationship with Haley.
Tarquin has his weaknesses. The horrible judgement of both his sons is one of them that will probably bite him later.
I don't think it's unlikely that he opened up to his long-lost, highly charismatic son that understands and lives by the rules of drama (maybe Elan is the very first person in many years that shares Tarquin's flair for dramatic? Malack certainly doesn't).
Also, what possible aim wanted Tarquin to achieve by lying to Elan about his plans? To freak the hell out of him?
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2323mike
Also, what possible aim wanted Tarquin to achieve by lying to Elan about his plans? To freak the hell out of him?
Let me clarify: I think Tarquin is certainly being honest about his plans to take control of the continent, and almost certainly about his intention to tell "the best story ever" with Elan. What I'm questioning, though, was whether becoming posthumously known as a famous villain in song was his plan all along - as he indicates - or whether it's something he's come up with after meeting Elan. I don't think he was ever planning to be killed by some random do-gooder like he claimed.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
IMO Tarquin, however savvy he is, doesn't know how he could effectively defy death. He knows he is going down eventually, so he wants to make the most out of it. Before he met adult Elan he just thought he might be, at worst, killed during some sort of peasant rebellion. And at best he would die of old age as the unofficial Lord of the Western Continent. Even the worst scenario was satisfactory for him then, and now it just got better with Elan.
But he admits this all: "If I win, I get to be a king", after all.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2323mike
Also, what possible aim wanted Tarquin to achieve by lying to Elan about his plans? To freak the hell out of him?
What he achieved by saying, "Even if I lose, I win," is obvious whether it was the truth or a lie. Elan believed (as do the people on the forum who take what Tarquin said as gospel truth) that there was no way he could truly defeat Tarquin, even if the entire Order was able to kill him.
If Tarquin had said, "If your adventuring group kills me...well, yeah, then I'll be sad about having lost," Elan's path would have been clear and the forum would have had many fewer people arguing that Tarquin had already won.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ti'esar
I don't think he was ever planning to be killed by some random do-gooder like he claimed.
Of course that wasn't his plan. A villian would have to be pretty incompetent to plan to fail.
What Tarquin is doing is accepting the possibility. Rigging things so even if he loses and is killed, he has a consolation prize that he can live with accept. As Tarquin sees it, there are two things that can happen.
1) Tarquin rules for the rest of his natural life and enjoys all of the luxury that comes with it. After he dies, he goes down in history as the man who ruled the Western Continent with an iron fist.
2) Tarquin rules until some adventurer is finally able to best him and enjoys all of the luxury that comes with it. After he is killed, he goes down in history as the man who ruled the Western Continent with an iron fist.
Both are wins in his eye. Sure, the first one is better since he gets to live longer, but he knows he isn't going to live forever. He isn't about to lich-ify himself like Xykon or find some other method to live forever (and if he intended to, I'd say it's well within his power to have already have done so).
By the rules Tarquin has chosen to play by, he has already won. The only way Tarquin loses is if he dies and is forgotten (which would be... difficult to say the least). And even then, he arguably still wins because he's already ruled with an iron fist and enjoyed all the luxury that comes with it for quite some time.
This doesn't mean that he can't be beaten... It doesn't mean the order can't defeat him and move on... It just means that they have to play by their own rules to do so. (For example: Dethrone him, prevent him from coming back and who cares whether he is remembered or not?)
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
TheSummoner
A villian would have to be pretty incompetent to plan to fail.
Well, if it's your plan and it works doesn't that mean you are competent? Failing is only incompetent if your plan is to succeed. Well, you know what I mean. :smalltongue:
But no, I'm pretty sure T's plan is "Get power, live comfortably, leave a legend behind." The big snag I see is that he can't realistically expect to get all three; if he steps out to rule openly he gets his legend but either loses his power or ends up devoting the entire rest of his life to fighting a losing battle to hold onto it. Even if Elan kills him, who will even know that he wasn't some random serial second-in-command? Kind of a serious flaw for such a skilled schemer.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
What he achieved by saying, "Even if I lose, I win," is obvious whether it was the truth or a lie. Elan believed (as do the people on the forum who take what Tarquin said as gospel truth) that there was no way he could truly defeat Tarquin, even if the entire Order was able to kill him.
If Tarquin had said, "If your adventuring group kills me...well, yeah, then I'll be sad about having lost," Elan's path would have been clear and the forum would have had many fewer people arguing that Tarquin had already won.
I don't see how Tarquin would not choose to believe in his no-defeat standpoint. Most of the villains (as well as some fans and haters out there) choose their belief in order to what sounds convenient to them.
Imagine Tarquin being depressed after (or shortly before) his death. Like "I am totally dead now; oh man, this sucks so much, despite I lived the life I wanted for 99% of my lifespan and I was going to die in 20 years, tops, anyway." Doesn't sound like him :smalltongue:
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Oops, didn't mean to do that.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ti'esar
Kish's argument is that Tarquin's no-defeat standpoint does not exist in the first place, not that he's (for some reason) choosing not to believe in it.
:smallconfused: How come that a standpoint that was already expressed doesn't exist?
Even if Tarquin made the scenario up to avoid being attacked by the Order (however ridiculous that seems to me), wouldn't he be better off if he actually started to believe it?
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
2323mike
Outside Time Travel, there is no way how to make Tarquin lose in his own game.
That's an exaggeration.
Can Tarquin "win" by losing, becoming The Protagonist in a sort of legendary tale? certainly yes, but he needs to be defeated openly, with a vast audience, with someone (preferably Elan) telling The Story, and so on...
Kill him now, in the desert, and sing the poem about The Lich and The Gates, and Tarquin will only be a missing general, that soon will be forgotten.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
By the way, I don't believe I've actually stated my personal opinion on Tarquin, so for the record, I like him plenty. He's had interesting effects on Elan's character development and remains pretty funny. He's a horrible human being - one who, underneath the style, is not just evil but petty in a really unpleasant way - and I'd like him to get what he deserves, but I don't feel any vindictive need for him to see everything crumble around him and realize he was wrong (I do hope we get to see him realize he's not at the center of the story).
The chief and only thing I dislike about Tarquin as a character is the constant forum controversies he seems to stir up, like this very thread. The Tarquin arguments don't even have the merit of being thought-provoking like some of those on Redcloak, or (to a lesser degree) V and Miko. They're just petty, and it doesn't help that both sides seem to have the same exaggerated attitude towards his competence. So in that respect, I do look forward to his dying or otherwise leaving the comic.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
You guys are forgetting that Elan did have some sort of secret plan to usurp Tarquin without him winning (or maybe not.) I always assumed that Elan's plan was to exile Tarquin to the desert after slapping on an imroved mark of justice for good measure.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
the only way Tarquin gets defeated is if he is redeemed. Then he follows Redemption=death and loses everything.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I can see why some people would hate Tarquin because he seems to always be ready for anything. Personally, I like that about him exactly because he seems near impossible to truly defeat. Makes me curious about how he will be defeated, or just waves away that whole stuff and go back to his own schemes. Don't really care what will happen to him, either he lives or not, just enjoying him for now.
Nah, the one I'd really want to see bashed for good is Nale. The Linear Guild was fun at first, but at this point, their constant return is more than a hassle to me and I was disappointed that Belkar didn't get to finish him off.
Oh, but I look forward to when Tarquin will realize that Elan is, in fact, barely competent in anything, even as a bard, and usually need guidance for most of what he'll manage to accomplish. This ought to be fun ! :smallamused:
Might be he's demise in the end. :smalltongue:
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2323mike
:smallconfused: How come that a standpoint that was already expressed doesn't exist?
Even if Tarquin made the scenario up to avoid being attacked by the Order (however ridiculous that seems to me), wouldn't he be better off if he actually started to believe it?
...Sure he would. Tsukiko would have been "better off" if, in her last few seconds of life, she had convinced herself that being eaten by wights was what she always wanted. Xykon would be "better off" if he convinced himself that no longer having a sense of taste is the goal he should always have been working toward, not having power.
What people would be better off believing is immaterial to what they actually do believe. Each individual reader must decide whether Tarquin's claim that he'll take it philosophically if/when he dies is believable or not. Without waving it around as though the mere fact that he said it makes it authoritative.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
...Sure he would. Tsukiko would have been "better off" if, in her last few seconds of life, she had convinced herself that being eaten by wights was what she always wanted. Xykon would be "better off" if he convinced himself that no longer having a sense of taste is the goal he should always have been working toward, not having power.
What people would be better off believing is immaterial to what they actually do believe. Each individual reader must decide whether Tarquin's claim that he'll take it philosophically if/when he dies is believable or not. Without waving it around as though the mere fact that he said it makes it authoritative.
Conviction itself can only go so far. In theory anybody can believe in anything, but most of the time such convicion would break the character. However, Tarquin is one of the most genre-savvy characters in the comics, he designs Evil Ovelord handbooks and knows rules of drama. It is perfectly appropriate for him to construct and maintain the viewpoint he expressed to Elan.
One can, of course, dismiss it as basically any other general assumptions of the comics: like that Belkar will die before the end of the year, V is going to be posessed by the IFCC at some point etc. But I personally accept what appears the most probable scenario.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Isn't that funny? I also accept what appears to be the most probable scenario--only when I look at what that is, I see Tarquin going, "Argh, no!" when he's defeated.
Tarquin's word just doesn't carry the authority you're trying to have it carry. Not because he's genre savvy, not because the philosophy he expressed is beneficial to him if he holds it, certainly not because he had no obvious immediate benefits from expressing it, and not for any other reason you're going to come up with either.
Quote:
Like "I am totally dead now; oh man, this sucks so much, despite I lived the life I wanted for 99% of my lifespan and I was going to die in 20 years, tops, anyway." Doesn't sound like him
No. Because it sounds like a classic straw man.
What does sound like Tarquin is, "Argh, I CAN'T LOSE! NOO!" Tarquin is the man who taught Nale to seek petty revenge for quasi-imagined slights; he was mystified that Elan wouldn't want terrible revenge on anyone who dared to defeat him. The fact that he's not quite as crazy as the son he raised to be a less-competent copy of himself doesn't mean his ego is less massive than your average black hole.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Personally, I want Tarquin to fall in a climactic fashion. Probably with an extreme effort on the part of the order. The catch is that it will take place in the middle of nowhere, possibly at Girards gate, and as a he was anything but.
Alternately, I think it would be interesting if he died saving Elan. He clearly demonstrates that he cares for his sons in his own way, and I think it would be very interesting if it is shown that he values his family over his own Legend.
Either way will work for me, but I really want to see him fight Redcloak at some point. Both are really Genre Savvy villains, who are a hude threat.
Lord out
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I still don't get why Tarquin draws so much hate from so many people.
As I mentioned before in another discussion almost exactly like this one, I find it refresshing to read about a character who isn't constantly being defeated as much by their own mental or psychological issues as by their enemies. What's wrong with competency!?!
Proud Member of the Tarquin fan club!
(I guess I need to petition TheGiant for a Tarquin smiley next)
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I personally hope that whatever happens to Tarquin involves Elan Dressing up as Tarquin and screwing up his whole tyranny scheme. Given how Elan has a tendency to hold the opposite of the touch of Midas (Where Midas touched everything and turned it to gold, which became his burden; Whatever Elan touches tends to go to hell, ultimately ushering his victory) I imagine under disguise of Tarquin, he could simply do what he does best and make his father lose everything that he worked so hard for (You know, probably with in a day's time).
I don't know what exactly. but it still is a dream of mine.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
Tarquin's word just doesn't carry the authority you're trying to have it carry.
...
... and not for any other reason you're going to come up with either.
So you aren't going to take Tarquin's words for granted. OK. Whatever.
Seems just wierd to me that you assume a man with a black hole sized Ego doesn't pamper it further by adopting No-Matter-What-Happens-I-Win ideology.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2323mike
So you aren't going to take Tarquin's words for granted. OK. Whatever.
Seems just wierd to me that you assume a man with a black hole sized Ego doesn't pamper it further by adopting No-Matter-What-Happens-I-Win ideology.
His ego demanded he say that. And possibly it demands that he believe it, I don't know. That doesn't mean he'll stick to it if/when he's actually losing.
Let me give you two examples. One is from the actual comic but involves Start of Darkness spoilers. The other is hypothetical.
Xykon said that it was better to be a brain in a jar than to let yourself die, and that if you die you're a loser. Spoiler
Show
However, this does not go with his actual behavior when he was alive. He was thinking about leaving a legacy after his death. With some of the most powerful magic in his world, he wasn't thinking about immortality at all. The only reason he ever became a lich, was because Redcloak suggested it as an alternative to living out his waning years in Lirian's prison.
So why did he say it? Because his philosophy changed after his death? Maybe, but mainly because the point of what he was saying was to Score On Spliced-Vaarsuvius. If that involved saying things he believed, or things he didn't believe, not really the point.
Now, the hypothetical. Suppose that Haerta ruled over a continent with an iron fist for a thousand years (assume she extended her lifespan, or even became a lich). Suppose, after those thousand years, she was slaughtered by a group of good-aligned adventurers who systematically destroyed every trace of her legacy. Suppose she got into an argument with Tarquin about which of them was a better tyrant, and she said, "My rule lasted for a thousand years!"
Do you suppose Tarquin's response would be, "All right, you win"?
I sure don't. No, he'd come up with some card to play. And maybe he'd come up with a card other than, "But you lost at the end, and I won't lose!" But I would not be at all surprised if that was the card he played.
And that that contradicted what he told Elan?
Irrelevant. Because the point of what he said to Elan was to demoralize Elan, which it proved very successful at. And the point of what he said to Haerta, similarly, would be to serve his ego--not to communicate anything genuine other than, "I, Tarquin, am superior."
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
...
I see your point. You basically say Tarquin's Ego > Tarquin's Savviness, while I think it's the other way around.
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Because the point of what he said to Elan was to demoralize Elan, which it proved very successful at.
Consider next-to-last panel of the strip with his speech. If Tarquin's intention was to mindscrew Elan, he would have his smug, triumphant expression there. But Tarquin appears to be mildly surprised instead, which implies Elan's fear and despair is not exactly what he expected.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Honestly, who cares if he becomes a legend? Big deal. Dead is dead.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bulldog Psion
Honestly, who cares if he becomes a legend? Big deal. Dead is dead.
Which is the best way to look at it if you want to defeat him and call it a victory. If you play by Tarquin's rules, Tarquin wins regardless of outcome. Play by your own and don't give a second thought to whether or not Tarquin calls it a win or a lose.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kish
Xykon said that it was better to be a brain in a jar than to let yourself die, and that if you die you're a loser.
Spoiler
Show
However, this does not go with his actual behavior when he was alive. He was thinking about leaving a legacy after his death. With some of the most powerful magic in his world, he wasn't thinking about immortality at all. The only reason he ever became a lich, was because Redcloak suggested it as an alternative to living out his waning years in Lirian's prison.
So why did he say it? Because his philosophy changed after his death? Maybe, but mainly because the point of what he was saying was to Score On Spliced-Vaarsuvius. If that involved saying things he believed, or things he didn't believe, not really the point.
Spoiler
Show
Personally, I think it's entirely silly to even speculate that Xykon's philosophy didn't genuinely change after his undeath, given that the transformation in his personality was a Big Dramatic Moment in SoD.
Such speeches as the one Xykon gave V are meant to fulfill two narrative purposes: they serve the character's immediate motivation (score on spliced V), to be sure, but they also tell the reader about the character's more fundamental motives.
Similarly, while it would make sense purely as an event within the world for Tarquin to create this no-lose scenario simply to appease Elan, it doesn't make sense from the perspective of the author illustrating Tarquin's character to the readers.
One other point: Tarquin's scenario is fundamentally based on the idea of keeping score over a long period of time to determine whether he 'won' or not. His reasoning is that he has won over so much time that whether he wins or loses now doesn't really matter with respect to his total accumulated past victories. That doesn't mean he doesn't want to win now. Economic concept of marginal outcomes: more victory is better. If he loses here and now, he can be frustrated about the immediate loss (the "Argh, no!" reaction you mentioned), while still being philosophically content with the total sum of victories he has built up. That's not a contradiction. So the outcome you describe can be explained without requiring Tarquin to lie in any sense about his no-lose scenario.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
what i would love to see from a good story perspective, is to have tarquin panic.
tarquin is written as the villain who is always in control, always has backup plans, uses everything to obtain new knowledge, and when he will eventually go down, he will probably do so while congratulating his enemies on how well they did it.
so basically, as he explained to elan, he'll think of himself as a winner no matter how it ends.
the only way elan would really *defeat* him, would be by psychologically breaking tarquin. i want to see him run around in blind panic, i want to see him beg for forgiveness/his life. i want to see him broken and ashamed.
mind you, not because i don't like him, he's one awesome magnificent bastard, but because it would be the ultimate demise for someone so much in control, to be running in blind panic.
it would be one hell of a challenge for rich to let this happen in a believable way, but should he try to do so and succeed, then he's the best writer ever in my book:smalltongue:
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
So I guess Taquins ultimate plan is just an adjustment of personal goals:
"Mwahahahaha! I always wanted to be tortured for three days before dying! I win!"
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
It's all moot really until we see how Tarquin reacts when he's over a barrel- even Xykon's known to panic when he's facing defeat.
And as for Tarquin's 'I win either way' plan- doesn't really matter how much land you conquer or long you stay in power when you're going to Hell (the existence of which is common knowledge in D&D) for eternity or as close as matters.
Turns out demons would rather use your soul as stress toy/toilet unblocker than debate the limitations and realism of the alignment system.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I really, really want Tarquin to suffer a horrible defeat. But not because I hate him: he's an awesome villain, and I enjoy seeing him. He's witty, affable, totally evil, but great fun. I want him to get beaten because he's a love-to-hate villain and I'm legitimately curious about his defeat/demise.
For one, assuming Elan beats him (which is implied by the Unseen Plan of Comic #836), he'll be proud he lost in a father-son duel, even if it involves no combat.
For another, the very premise of his defeat has to nullify the decades of evil rulership under his belt. My only guess is that it destroys his credibility, possibly by convincing the public he performs depraved acts of lust with deceased livestock or something humiliating.
Mario Lanza, a Survivor writer, said that one player getting crushed by an old lady in a challenge was the best thing to happen to him, because it cemented his villainy. If he won, people wouldn't see him as a good villain. The same applies to Tarquin: If he wins, nobody will be able to say he was a villain, because villains winning is too depressing.
Tarquin is a good villain, and it'll be bittersweet to see him get thrashed (actual thrashing optional). We'll lose a great character, but it'll probably be awesome.
TL:DR-Yes, he should be bashed in, but only because good villains must lose to be good villains.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
konradknox
I think Xykon would actually respect Tarquin as a fellow evildoer, especially one with a solid working evil scheme
Would Xykon recruit Tarquin? I suspect the answer is"yes" - Xykon was happy enough to recruit Tsukiko and probably enjoys the thought of Redcloak having a rival.
Would Tarquin sign up? My guess is "yes, but only on a temporary basis". To join Xykon for a while, because he's too powerful to say no to and because it might be fun, is one thing. To permanently subordinate himself wouldn't be acceptable.
Tarquin versus Redcloak, while both are employed by Xykon, would be an interesting political battle, though perhaps too much of a repeat of Tsukiko versus Redcloak.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davidbofinger
Would Tarquin sign up? My guess is "yes, but only on a temporary basis". To join Xykon for a while, because he's too powerful to say no to and because it might be fun, is one thing. To permanently subordinate himself wouldn't be acceptable.
Of course Tarquin would sign up. He signed up with Baron Tyrinar, with the Empress of Blood, with Nale, and with many nameless others.
Signing up to be a subordinate and advisor is what Tarquin does.
And once he helped the Order of the Stick defeat Xykon, he would sign up with Roy next.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay R
Signing up to be a subordinate and advisor is what Tarquin does.
A small correction: what Tarquin does is sign up to be a subordinate and adviser to a pre-handpicked patsy. If Tarquin sees Xykon in this light he's setting himself up for a fall, just like everyone else who's underestimated Xykon.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Why has no one else realized that by explaining his plan to Elan, Tarquin has effectively guaranteed the success of his secondary plans. Tarquin has two major goals here.
1. Rule in power and luxury for as long as he can (Impossible to thwart because it has already happened.)
2. Be remembered as the ultimate villian (certainly seems to be working, judging from the amount of data on this thread :smalltongue:)
But seriously, it does seem that explaining the whole thing to the bard makes Tarquin's true story more likely to be remembered.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I think what really got to Elan was the line "I'll inspire a thousand more leaders to follow in my footsteps. And it'll all be thanks to you, my boy."
So I was thinking what sort of victory condition would Elan be considering here? What's his list of priorities?
1) Wants to limit further evil in the world by preventing Tarquin inspiring new generations of ruthless warlords.
2) Obviously wants to shut Tarquin down as soon as possible so that horrible tyranny doesn't continue in the immediate future.
but also
3) He doesn't really want to kill/do other bad things to Tarquin either. Elan's not that sort of guy. He saved Nale when it mattered. Sure he attacked Tarquin but that was in the heat of the moment. Whatever his plan is it's probably going to be something that does as little harm to his dad as possible and would definitely at least avoid causing undue distress to him insofar as it's possible.
I say he wants to redeem Tarquin and/or at the very least twist his reputation from a fearsome badass tyrant to something positive and heroic. Set something in motion where Tarquin is remembered in history as the real tragic hero of the story. The one who gave his life defeating the Empress so that the people would live free. Something to inspire future generations to follow this false example of the selfless hero Tarquin.
Where does Durkon come in? I dunno. Maybe he wants Durkon to slap Tarquin with a Geas so that he plays along with the plan or something.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
An interesting question is: Why exactly do so many people hate Tarquin so much? I mean, Tarquin is a villian, but he's one of the lesser villians as far as Evil is concerned, compared to skrell like Xykon or Redcloak or Kubota. It seems to me that he's about the same level of wrong as Nale, and there doesn't seem to be a huge section of rabid Nale-haters on the forums (though maybe I just missed them post.)
So in answer to the title question, No, I don't want Tarquin to get bashed in. I want Tarquin to make the jump from Evil Lawful to Lawful Good, establish a fair (though probably still harsh) regime, and live happily for many years until he dies of old age.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
ReaderAt2046
An interesting question is: Why exactly do so many people hate Tarquin so much? I mean, Tarquin is a villian, but he's one of the lesser villians as far as Evil is concerned, compared to skrell like Xykon or Redcloak or Kubota. It seems to me that he's about the same level of wrong as Nale, and there doesn't seem to be a huge section of rabid Nale-haters on the forums (though maybe I just missed them post.)
Nale probably gets a pass because he effectively punishes himself, by his staggering overall incompetence. It's impossible to take Nale seriously.
Kubota - is very comparable, but he was only ever a bit player and, in the approved minor-boss mode, he died pretty much as soon as he came into direct contact with our heroes. There was no need to hate him, because he was never successful.
Redcloak has basically had a whole dump of karmic retribution already, thanks to Xykon.
I'd say people do "hate" Xykon at least as much as Tarquin. The reason we don't feel the need to say so very often is because - well, nobody disputes it. (For values of "nobody" that include a mostly-quiet handful of people with dubious SAN ratings, you know who you are.) And since he's the main villain of the story, we assume he's going to get his comeuppance at, but not before, the grand finale.
But Tarquin has admirers. His self-justifications have been so eloquent that some people have actually swallowed them, at least in part. Hence much more debate, and that makes the "hate" - louder. Then there's his smug "I've-already-won" schtick, which means that we know the iron laws of karma must smack him down with a particularly ferocious intensity. Otherwise, nothing makes sense.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ReaderAt2046
An interesting question is: Why exactly do so many people hate Tarquin so much? I mean, Tarquin is a villian, but he's one of the lesser villians as far as Evil is concerned, compared to skrell like Xykon or Redcloak or Kubota. It seems to me that he's about the same level of wrong as Nale, and there doesn't seem to be a huge section of rabid Nale-haters on the forums (though maybe I just missed them post.)
Yeah. To me, the comic is for comedy's sake. Tarquin, in his own way, contributes to the comedic effect. Thus, I don't understand the bitterness towards him.
Of course, Xykon is the funniest character in the whole strip. So, I hope Xykon does what he wants. Not because of any plot device, but rather because he is funny.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Actually, there is a moderately-sized segment of Nale-haters on the forum. They pop up whenever he's doing well, which is why we haven't seen much of them lately.
Also, ditto veti.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I also think the reason Tarquin gets so much hate is not because of what he does in comic, but because he has a lot of fans and admirers in audience and haters think that is simply wrong. Also, the fact that he has yet to make a dumb mistake doesn't help either.
In terms of evilness, I think Nale is much more Evil than Tarquin is. I would peg Tarquin somewhere between Kubota and Bozzok. Kubota is very close, except he was willing to sell his soul to get the power he wanted. Bozzok is a merciless mob boss, but does not indulge in cruelty.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
VariableNature
But for Tarquin, he doesn't seem to have an "I lose" condition. From the plan he detailed to Elan, he seems to have planned for everything. He's essentially the "perfect" bad guy, and that just rubs me the wrong way.
So. Too long didn't read version: I like Tarquin as a character. But I don't like that he seems to have no weaknesses.
I think that he has no lose condition because he, in a sense, has no win condition either. His plan cannot fail because it has already succeeded. He has lived for many years in proseperity, raised two sons (at least, he probably has more running around from all his various romantic conquests), and has succeeded at telling Elan, and thus the readership of this comic, all about his successes, and is perfectly ready to die when his time comes. His plan cannot be thwarted because it has already succeded.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
Water_Bear
[COLOR="Blue"]Even if Elan kills him, who will even know that he wasn't some random serial second-in-command? Kind of a serious flaw for such a skilled schemer.
That's why he told Elan his plan. Now everybody knows what really happened.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
ReaderAt2046
That's why he told Elan his plan. Now everybody knows what really happened.
If by "everybody" you mean "the audience", then sure. But in-universe? The people outside his adventuring party who know his plan are Elan, Roy, Haley, Belkar, Ian, Geoff, Ivy, possibly Durkon, and everyone Ian and Geoff told who is still alive.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I think It's going to be a whole Star Wars reference (seriously)
With 2 obvious references and one obscure (one rebel against a force of an EMPIRE), its safe to say instead of getting killed, He redeems himself by saving Elan from the Emperor(ess). That way instead of a badass villan, you got a (badass) hero
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Rebuttal, point 1: the Empress is incompetent, lazy, and pliable, especially to Tarquin. He's already "saved" Elan from the Empress - and Malack - once by whispering a few words in her ear. She is also comic relief, and thus not a legitimate threat to Elan in the same way that Palpatine was a legitimate threat to Luke.
Rebuttal, point 2: Vader's redemption is seen as cheap and easy by many observers. Tarquin going for, still less being conned into, cheap and easy redemption doesn't jive with either his character or the Giant's discussions of what redemption is or what it's worth (see Soon's speech to Miko and any V thread).
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I actually like Tarquin. I'm not going to fangirl over him or join his fan club or anything, but I find him to be interesting and entertaining. However, he has this idea of Elan being this huge hero more along the lines of Roy than how he really is. I would like Tarquin to realize all of Elan's buffoonish tendencies and lose his faith in him. Then, I want Elan to defeat him in some unorthodox, deliightfully Elan-ish way. This would either be Tarquin's "ultimate defeat" or it would restore his pride in his son and he would die happy. Probably the second.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
I don't want Tarquin to be defeated at all. He's the most complex and interesting character in the story so far IMO; I don't think he needs to be defeated because "bad guys always lose". Sometimes, the bad guy winning (or at least not losing) is just as satisfying and effective story-wise as the good guys overcoming the odds.
Would 1984 have been as chilling had the last few chapters been about Winston breaking free of miniluv and single-handedly taking down the Party? No, the point of the story is to paint a portrait of a terrifying future - "a boot stomping on a human face, forever". If the good guys won it'd detract from that. Similarly, I think Tarquin doesn't need to be defeated because it would benefit the story to set aside the traditional (hell, it's almost law by this point) "bad guys must be defeated" mentality. It'd do them, and the story, good to realise you have to pick your battles, and you can't win all of them.
So yeah. I'd like Tarquin to continue to add complexity whether it's by not being defeated at all, by continuing to aid the protagonists where their goals don't conflict with his, or anything at all that isn't yet more "bad guys are bad, must always be defeated and can never have depths". Tarquin isn't like most generic mini-arc villains, so I see no need to have him defeated like one.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
Chloe Seven
I don't want Tarquin to be defeated at all. He's the most complex and interesting character in the story so far IMO; I don't think he needs to be defeated because "bad guys always lose". Sometimes, the bad guy winning (or at least not losing) is just as satisfying and effective story-wise as the good guys overcoming the odds.
Would 1984 have been as chilling had the last few chapters been about Winston breaking free of miniluv and single-handedly taking down the Party?
You make an interesting argument, but I think (based on my own instincts and what I've read on this forum) that you're in a very, very small minority there.
'1984' is a horrifying dystopian novel about an extreme case of totalitarian government enabled by technology. 'Order of the Stick' is a mostly-lighthearted fantasy about an epic quest to save a world. Those two genres are about as far apart as you can get.
So - sure, Rich could buck convention by allowing a blatantly Evil-with-a-capital-E-no-matter-what-he-says-about-it villain to roam free. And the Oracle could be completely wrong about Elan's happy ending, and Belkar could join Tarquin's party and live another 80 years, and Xykon might lose interest in the gates and retire to torture souls on the Astral Plane and be taken out years from now by some wizard we've never heard of.
All of that could happen - but it's not going to. Do you think it should?
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
zimmerwald1915
A small correction: what Tarquin does is sign up to be a subordinate and adviser to a pre-handpicked patsy. If Tarquin sees Xykon in this light he's setting himself up for a fall, just like everyone else who's underestimated Xykon.
This.
Sadly, I doubt Tarquin is going to commit that mistake; he's to careful ans savvy.
I think Tarquin plans will break apart because of Malack, when the latter discover what is really going on with the Gates (I doubt he would like the idea of a SOUL destroying weapon that could threat his own god being put in the hands of either the Dark One or mere mortals, Tarquin included).
The other blind spot of Tarquin is Elan, which he considers a leader and talented adventurer despite all evidence. If Tarquin makes plans counting on Elan being smart, he is screwed.
And of course, Xykon could kill and turn Tarquin into a Death Knight outright upon meeting him, without allowing Tarq any time to appraising what he's getting himself into.
I personally think Tarquin is too genre-savvy to try to use the Snarl once he learns about it. The Snarl is one of those things that always screws the flamboyant cackling villains he despises.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
To the OP: I really like option #2.
Anything will be ok, though, as long as he's defeated and humiliated.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Oh I agree that 1984 and OotS are very different things. I was just pointing out an (admittedly extreme) example of how narratively, a Bad Guy Wins scenario can be extremely interesting and further a story.
That said, I'm not saying Tarquin needs to win. I'm just saying he doesn't need to lose, either. He can contribute so much more to the story than just being the disc one final boss or an instance of the Worf Effect to show how badass the Order has gotten (or Xykon/Redcloak).
I'm not a writer, so these are some pretty trite examples, but they're examples anyway: Tarquin teaming up with the Order in an Enemy Mine situation against Xykon and the Order deciding he's more useful alive, Tarquin pulling a Vader and offering to let Elan rule with him if Elan is so horrified by how Tarquin runs things, Tarquin points out that even if the OotS defeats him his allies are still doing the exact same thing in other empires and the OotS can't stop them all, etc etc etc. Like I said, I'm not a writer, so apologies for the clichés, but the point is there's other stuff that can be done with Tarquin.
It's a very subjective thing, but personally I'm getting bored of the certainty that things are going to go the same way (bad guy losing). It's fiction, terrible things can happen and offend our sense of justice and morality without anyone actually being harmed, so I don't know why the good guys always have to win.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Anyone think Tarquin will die saving Elan's life? Because a Vader-style "You were right about me" moment would be just as dramatic as a father-son duel... especially if it's in the service of saving the world and his son at the same time.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Yes. Yes. Oh god, yes. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
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Originally Posted by
Gondolin42
Anyone think Tarquin will die saving Elan's life? Because a Vader-style "You were right about me" moment would be just as dramatic as a father-son duel... especially if it's in the service of saving the world and his son at the same time.
I don't think Elan's had a "I know there's good in you" speech to Tarquin though (yet?). So he can't be right.
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Re: Does anyone else really want Tarquin to get absolutely bashed in?
Tarquin saving the world from Xykon would be pretty epic. Especially if it was actually Elan that did it, and Tarquin just gets the credit.