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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
javcs
I think Pain Wave lets you pop the 20ft radius aura?burst?emanation?(can't remember what it should be called) of Inflict Moderate and be shaken as a free action 1/round for 1 round per RHD.
My big issue with that is that it doesn't mention a restriction on uses per round anywhere. Furthermore, the current text technically describes a functioning and complete ability, just one that has some weird superfluous bits.
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Originally Posted by
ViperMagnum357
My thoughts have already been laid out, so I will jump on the LA +1 wagon, minus the asterisk. The abusability of the minionmancy is already present in other monsters that could take many levels worth of casting or other features while this one is still buying into the RHD; if this needs an asterisk, so does every other minion creator and most caster lists. (I know we added asterisks to some of them in prior threads, but I would just as soon assume any reasonable DM will use some fiat to quash infinite loops of any kind.)
If there's any monsters that can create infinite free minions and don't have an asterisk I would really like to hear about those.
'Any reasonable DM would fiat those loops' is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to show with the asterisks. They're meant to say 'RAW this thing is broken to the point of unplayability, but any reasonable DM will be banning ability X, so here's a rating without (broken usage of) ability X'.
It's better and easier than having to rate stuff like infinite-spawn shadows that nobody will be allowed to play anyway, and it's also better than making people guess whether a certain rating is including or excluding certain broken abilities.
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Originally Posted by
GreatWyrmGold
Which is weird, because Google can't find any other time those seven characters have been arranged in that order. (To be fair, Ç doesn't seem like it would be that common of a character.)
Ak Çhazar, on the other hand, gets a lot of results about the variant rakshasa...and in a different order than Ak Chazar. Weird.
I wasn't talking about autocorrect or anything, it's just that ' followed by C gets turned into Ç on here rather than 'C.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
I'd say they're worth about LA+0*. At level 17 the SLAs are mostly on par on what a Dread Necromancer gets as spells, even considering the higher CL (but a Dread Necromancer has more uses in total) and both get rebuke undead, so the minionmancery potential is about the same.
OTOH these Rakshasas get +17 BAB, all martial weapons and access to 6ths, so they can make half-passable gishes. Rebuke does give access to some [Divine] feats, like Divine Might, so it's useful even outside minionmancy.
As an aside, DMM only works on divine spells, so these guys are out of luck.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
flare'90
I'd say they're worth about LA+0*. At level 17 the SLAs are mostly on par on what a Dread Necromancer gets as spells, even considering the higher CL (but a Dread Necromancer has more uses in total) and both get rebuke undead, so the minionmancery potential is about the same.
OTOH these Rakshasas get +17 BAB, all martial weapons and access to 6ths, so they can make half-passable gishes. Rebuke does give access to some [Divine] feats, like Divine Might, so it's useful even outside minionmancy.
As an aside, DMM only works on divine spells, so these guys are out of luck.
Other divine feats, such as Divine Vigor, do work though... wait a sec, damn ninjas. Fitting, since the next entry monsters are rogue rakshasha.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
This is essentially a bard with a full BAB and d8 HD, if their class abilities and spells were replaced by sorcerer casting, let alone the DR, SR and tanky stat boosts. I don't see how this could be anything other than +1 LA.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Inevitability
My big issue with that is that it doesn't mention a restriction on uses per round anywhere. Furthermore, the current text technically describes a functioning and complete ability, just one that has some weird superfluous bits.
True - and I'd be fully onboard with anyone going with the instant effect 3/day interpretation.
It's just that I think my interpretation is the best fit with the 1 round per Hit Dice language - and it's entirely possible that it's legacy language from an earlier version of the ability, and there was an editing failure.
At any rate, the ability needed more attention being paid to its contents, whether it's got language from multiple versions of the ability, or was poorly written and unclear.
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If there's any monsters that can create infinite free minions and don't have an asterisk I would really like to hear about those.
'Any reasonable DM would fiat those loops' is exactly the kind of thing I am trying to show with the asterisks. They're meant to say 'RAW this thing is broken to the point of unplayability, but any reasonable DM will be banning ability X, so here's a rating without (broken usage of) ability X'.
It's better and easier than having to rate stuff like infinite-spawn shadows that nobody will be allowed to play anyway, and it's also better than making people guess whether a certain rating is including or excluding certain broken abilities.
They're not exactly unlimited minions. They are undead minions, and as such are massively dependent upon the DM providing bodies in good enough shape to turn into undead.
They're simply free undead creation (when the cost is relatively trivial at their level) - you've still got all the regular limits in controlling the created undead.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
Considering that the regular Raksasha got +3 to prevent access to 9th lv spell. And that this one already lost 5 CL. I think ill put my vote for +0*.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Inevitability
If there's any monsters that can create infinite free minions and don't have an asterisk I would really like to hear about those.
I don't completely agree, this is an issue with monsters like shadows because they have this ability at such low levels; however, by this logic prcs like pale master are broken because they give you free infinite minions. At level 17 having 3/day - animate dead; 2/day create undead; 1/day create greater undead while powerful isn't game breaking in light of the standard use of many level 8 and 9 spells. Especially since these are the abilities it is getting in place of the ability to get 8s and 9s pre epic. Granted with that said I believe the breath of abilities these guys have does give them enough of an edge over standard characters to justify a +1. These are literally necromancer gish in a can that has an advantage over similarly leveled characters but it isn't a massive advantage.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
A human with fell animate spell and some decent timing can raise free minions... by level five. That's without metamagic reduction. It's not infinite free minions, but neither is the rakshasa's SLAs because they too abide by the raise dead limit.
+1 is fine, but no asterisk required.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
Raising 80 HD of Undead normally costs 2000 gp, I don't think being able to skirt that requirement is asterisk-worthy. I'll say +0 for this one.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
According to everything in these threads so far, the asteriks is there to indicate potentially problematic abilities the DM needs to be aware of. Though this rakshasa isn't the best minionmancer, such abilities are generally something that the DM needs to be aware of before allowing the character to play in the game. Therefore, I think +0* is an appropriate rating
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
After reading everyone's position I have to say +0 without the asterisk.
At these levels 'free' spells have effectively been online for the other casters in the party for a while now.
SLAs are cool, but they're still analogous to the spells they emulate.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Luccan
According to everything in these threads so far, the asteriks is there to indicate potentially problematic abilities the DM needs to be aware of. Though this rakshasa isn't the best minionmancer, such abilities are generally something that the DM needs to be aware of before allowing the character to play in the game. Therefore, I think +0* is an appropriate rating
But what is the actual problematic issue this causes? By level 17 most necromancers intent on minionmancy have already figured out a way to get their army for free like pale master's ability, fell animate, and so on and so forth. Furthermore, rakshasa doesn't gain any ability to control any larger number of undead than any other necromancer at the same level they just don't have to go out of their way to get around the cost issue of creating undead. So from a minionmancer point of view the only issue I see is that create undead and create greater undead allow the rakshasa to create beefier minions for free compared to a character with fell animate or free animate dead, which lets be honest is balanced out by the lack of level 8 and 9 spells pre epic.
So then that leaves only the spawn-pocalypse argument which frankly doesn't really hold up, as at a rate of 6 undead a day max this isn't any greater issue than a character with fell animate at the same level. I am just not seeing the * concern here, this isn't a spawn-pocalypse issue anymore so than any other character who can cast create undead and create greater undead.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
liquidformat
But what is the actual problematic issue this causes? By level 17 most necromancers intent on minionmancy have already figured out a way to get their army for free (...)
Or they don't bother even trying to do it for free, since the material component costs are trivial by level 17 WBL.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Inevitability
I wasn't talking about autocorrect or anything, it's just that ' followed by C gets turned into Ç on here rather than 'C.
Ah, that makes sense.
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Originally Posted by
OgresAreCute
Raising 80 HD of Undead normally costs 2000 gp, I don't think being able to skirt that requirement is asterisk-worthy. I'll say +0 for this one.
You could buy a ring of protection for one of your zombies with those savings!
On a serious note, though, the big advantage of not needing material components isn't so much in the initial setup as in the ability to more easily replenish your undead horde. If you're not losing more zombies than you have SLAs, you don't have to worry about getting a consistent influx of onyx. Your zombies go from cheap investments to completely expendable.
Of course, this still isn't a huge advantage; even if you cast all three spells and created the maximum number of undead HD possible (which would involve a ridiculously high attrition rate), you'd save 2,300 gp per day (1,000 on animate dead, 700 on create undead, and 600 on create greater undead). That's not nothing (it's about three CLW wands, for instance), but as noted, that's an extreme case.
Not to mention that, by 17th level, the types of useful undead you can create with those spells are...limited in variety. Mohrgs and devourers are nice, but that's not where most of your savings would come from, and creatures which can be transformed into useful skeletons and zombies aren't going to be very common. You can't improvise a dragon-drawn ship if you don't have a dragon.
TL;DR: It's still useful, especially if you practice tactics that the Imperial Guard would consider wasteful. But they're not game-breaking; you get three smart undead and a gaggle of low-level mooks per day, assuming you wiped out most of your mooks on the previous day.
Mohrg minionmancy is a potential problem, since they don't have a HD limit, but saving less than the price of a 1st-level wand on your zombie horde seed isn't worth that much at 17th level. Besides, once you have a fair-sized army, it gets to be a bit of a pain for the mohrg to kill many people personally without exposing it to undue threat (which is only undue thanks to the scale of the zombie horde).
Though this discussion does give me a plot seed. A 17 to 20th-level necromancer controlling five mohrg generals, each of which has an army of zombies and a few special quirks. Or break it down further; a lich necromancer controls a bunch of vampire necromancer-generals, who control both a personal army of spawn and a few mohrg majors with zombie hordes (possibly with ghast sergeants, though how that works mechanically is beyond me). The players start killing sergeants, which causes the zombies they command to start wandering aimlessly; then they kill some of the majors, causing the ghasts to retreat into the countryside and just prey on passers-by; then they kill generals, causing their spawn and the mohrg-lead armies to start fighting among themselves; and eventually they confront the lich, interrupting some kind of plan that would let it take control of the army once more.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
javcs
They're not exactly unlimited minions. They are undead minions, and as such are massively dependent upon the DM providing bodies in good enough shape to turn into undead.
They're simply free undead creation (when the cost is relatively trivial at their level) - you've still got all the regular limits in controlling the created undead.
You can use Create Greater Undead to turn any single corpse (not any specific corpse, just a corpse in general) into a shadow, wraith, or spectre, which then can turn any humanoid into more of itself. Because technically, only the first undead is controlled by you (the other ones are controlled by their creator), there's essentially no limit on how much you can control.
Could a level 17 wizard do this? Yes. However, a 17th-level wizard could also abuse Split, or turn into a zodar for free Wishes, or do anything else of the many things this thread considers broken, and we don't let that prevent us from putting asterisks on the monsters with those abilities.
So back to your comment, these undead we are discussing are unlimited minions, they aren't dependent on the DM providing powerful bodies in good shape (they are instead dependent on the DM providing large quantities of weak humanoids in one place, which is a given in literally every setting), and they aren't subject to the regular control limits. Add to this that a +5 touch attack that drains constitution is definitely a threat to many CR 17-20 monsters and I'm having trouble seeing how this ability isn't too strong to at least slap a warning sign on the rakshasa.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
liquidformat
I don't completely agree, this is an issue with monsters like shadows because they have this ability at such low levels; however, by this logic prcs like pale master are broken because they give you free infinite minions. At level 17 having 3/day - animate dead; 2/day create undead; 1/day create greater undead while powerful isn't game breaking in light of the standard use of many level 8 and 9 spells. Especially since these are the abilities it is getting in place of the ability to get 8s and 9s pre epic. Granted with that said I believe the breath of abilities these guys have does give them enough of an edge over standard characters to justify a +1. These are literally necromancer gish in a can that has an advantage over similarly leveled characters but it isn't a massive advantage.
Pale master lets you create up to 80 HD of skeletons and zombies for free, with a cap of 20 HD per day. That's not 'free infinite minions', that's a slowly regenerating meat wall that lacks any utility and is simply not a threat (or even an obstacle) to most high-level monsters Meanwhile, the Ak'Chazar lets you create virtually unlimited wraiths, with the only cap being the number of humanoids you can find.
These two are not comparable.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
I feel the need to change my vote. I've been convinced that the asterisk is warranted. I still don't think the ability is problematic at level 17, but for the sake of internal consistency, it should be there.
+0*
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
Ah, infinite minions via proxy.
That argument ... makes more sense. On the other hand, at levels 17+ just about every serious opponent should have magical attacks and the means to deal with incorporeal threats.
Also, that started at level 15 for the prepared casters, and level 16 for the spontaneous casters, who haven't lost casting levels.
Undead created by Create (Greater) Undead are not automatically under the Ak'Chazar's control.
It might merit a *. Still not seeing anything that merits a +1 instead of a +0.
So, on account of infinite undead via proxy (though literally any Evil cleric 15 could suddenly decided to wake up once morning and do the exact same thing), I'm revising from a plain +0 to a +0*.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Inevitability
Pale master lets you create up to 80 HD of skeletons and zombies for free, with a cap of 20 HD per day. That's not 'free infinite minions', that's a slowly regenerating meat wall that lacks any utility and is simply not a threat (or even an obstacle) to most high-level monsters Meanwhile, the Ak'Chazar lets you create virtually unlimited wraiths, with the only cap being the number of humanoids you can find.
These two are not comparable.
For 250 gp a cleric could create virtually unlimited wraiths in the same urban setting at level 16, still not seeing the argument.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
liquidformat
For 250 gp a cleric could create virtually unlimited wraiths in the same urban setting at level 16, still not seeing the argument.
Maybe that means Cleric 16 needs a *, not that this monster doesn't need one.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Randuir
Maybe that means Cleric 16 needs a *, not that this monster doesn't need one.
yes anyone playing a cleric, wizard, druid, sorcerer or many other classes above level 15 should probably be given a * because they can break the game in many different ways least of which is using the create greater undead spell to proxy spawn-pocalypse and dms should be weary of letting them into their games because they will ruin them...
I see the need to have * on shadows and similar creatures with infinite spawn abilities. The fact that every humanoid killed by str damage of the shadow becomes a shadow soon after is a major issue that potentially destroys whole towns and countries.
However, Ak'Chazar can only create one a day at level 17, which by the way is less than other full casters could create per day and at a price of 150-350 gp/creature it isn't exactly going to break the bank in the short term for said character. If at level 17, pc causing the spawn-pocalypse by proxy is a valid concern not allowing them to be an Ak'Chazar isn't lessening the concern which is more of a player specific issue than a * beware of abusibility/game breaking feature of this monster.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
Im going for +0 based on all the arguments. Take or leave the * i dont mind either way, dont wanna be part of that debate.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
liquidformat
yes anyone playing a cleric, wizard, druid, sorcerer or many other classes above level 15 should probably be given a * because they can break the game in many different ways
That's going to make * pretty meaningless, though.
Lots of monsters have cleric / wizard / druid / sorcerer casting.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
Comparing this thing to other gisher, i definitly think it deserves at least +1. Maybe +2
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
Thinking about it a bit more, I think that +0 is probably fine. It's not enough to break into tier 2. It's pretty well optimized for a tier 3, but not that focused. I don't think it needs a * any more than other characters do for having WBL enough to buy a candle of invocation. Infinite spawn is in that same region of TO exploit, and the undead aren't much of a problem used as intended.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
+0, don't think it needs the star. It casts spells with a small discount. By level 15, the PCs should be fighting demons in the demon pits of Demonia, so undead (and corpses) are hardly in plentiful supply.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Flickerdart
+0, don't think it needs the star. It casts spells with a small discount. By level 15, the PCs should be fighting demons in the demon pits of Demonia, so undead (and corpses) are hardly in plentiful supply.
Outsiders leave corpses.
Corpses can be animated.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
They don't necessarily leave corpses.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Nifft
Outsiders leave corpses.
Corpses can be animated.
Not always.
Plus, you still need the material components other than the onyx.
Plus, not all planes have a day/night cycle. Create (Greater) Undead must be cast at night.
Also, it's up to the DM if any corpses are in a useable condition for the spells. Not every corpse will be, and that's without anyone taking reasonable precautions against their corpse being used for necromancy against their will.
Besides, at level 15+? Any outsider with fighting is going to have the magic to slap down an attempt at a spawnpocalypse.
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At any rate, whether or not the Ak'Chazar really merits a DM caution in the form of a * for its SLAs and the ability to spawnpocalyse and have infinite minions via proxy - and that's something that any DM would rightly frown upon, though there are far easier and faster alternatives to do the exact same thing available to more conventional builds - while they are certainly playable out of the box at T3 with minimal optimization, they don't, IMO, need additional LA.
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Re: The LA-assignment thread V: Escape from LA
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Originally Posted by
Caelestion
They don't necessarily leave corpses.
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Originally Posted by
javcs
Not always.
Summoned ones don't count, since the poster said the PC was on the demons' home plane.