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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
The greek mercenary leaders killed during parley by the persians after cunassa.
Odoacer and his men killed by Theodoric at the dinner table.
Alberigo dei Manfredi had his relatives murdered at his dinner table using "bring fruit" as a codeword.
Anyone placed in Tolomea by Dante.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Stockholm Bloodbath
There are half a dozens similar ones later on when the power struggle between duke (later king) Charles (IX) and his nephew Sigsimund in the late 1590s of summary executions usually done under prtence of legal examination.
Also interesting but not quite as bloody Håtuna games and their sequel Nyköping Banquet - This Time The Shoe Is on the Other Foot in the early 1300s as sons of Swedish king Magnus Ladulås (died 1290) fought for the Swedihs crown. These last two the principals didn't die, just ended up jailed for various times (not that the 2 guys jailed after the last one survived for long mind).
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Away from my books, so I can't give references, but assassinations at banquets were common enough in Chinese culture that specific counter measures were introduced, which have mutated over the years into table manners.
For example, it's considered rude to put your hands below the table - this derives from showing that you have your hands in sight at all times and are not reaching for a dagger or other weapon hidden out of sight.
*Edit: Just remembered one, although not food related - the attempted assassination of the King of Qin by Jing Ke, the Crown Prince of Yan, which was very loosely adapted into the film Hero.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
The fact that English protocol requires you to keep your free hand off the table now strikes me as very suspicious...
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vinyadan
The greek mercenary leaders killed during parley by the persians after cunassa.
Odoacer and his men killed by Theodoric at the dinner table.
Alberigo dei Manfredi had his relatives murdered at his dinner table using "bring fruit" as a codeword.
Anyone placed in Tolomea by Dante.
Many thanks, Found Odoacer easily enough, but I am having trouble finding Alberigo dei Manfredi and Cunassa, I will try again when I get a chance(cat might be getting sick), but any alternate spellings you are aware of?
@snowblizz also good stuff, thank you
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Away from my books, so I can't give references, but assassinations at banquets were common enough in Chinese culture that specific counter measures were introduced, which have mutated over the years into table manners.
For example, it's considered rude to put your hands below the table - this derives from showing that you have your hands in sight at all times and are not reaching for a dagger or other weapon hidden out of sight.
*Edit: Just remembered one, although not food related -
the attempted assassination of the King of Qin by Jing Ke, the Crown Prince of Yan, which was very loosely adapted into the film
Hero.
For some reason, in all my years, it just never occurred to me that table manners had anything to do with not killing the people you were dining with. I love that, thank you. and the link too, never found that one when I was looking into the king of Qin myself.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wobner
Many thanks, Found Odoacer easily enough, but I am having trouble finding Alberigo dei Manfredi and Cunassa, I will try again when I get a chance(cat might be getting sick), but any alternate spellings you are aware of?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fra_Alberigo
What English wiki has to say, it's not much.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
Great post, I just want to say I agree with all of this.
Sometimes I think even good training can get in the way of other training. I used to do sort of SCA style fighting in groups. After doing HEMA for 10 years, almost exclusively one on one, I tired a couple of group fights with some SCA types, all of whom I could (and did) easily take apart in one on one combat, and I got slaughtered! I think the HEMA one on one training kind of messed up my group fighting instincts, I had too much to think about. The converse is also true probably. This may be why we don't have that much evidence of HEMA type training among military people, it seems to have been more popular with burghers, who would need it for informal duels and brawls.
I remember earlier in another similar discussion of training vs. innate skill, and I was kind of bragging that it took X amount of months of training before a new person could beat me, but we have a kid now who has only been training two months and I have to get into 'tournament' mindset to stay a step ahead of him, which I can barely do. There was a guy like that who came out of the Houston club a few years ago who went on to do real well in the Swedish tournament, I think one of three yanks to do so on Longsword. Some people are just gifted.
G
Wanted to comment on the idea of training getting in the way of other training. This is a very real thing, particularly in the context of Person Man's scenario of the informal vs. formal. A couple of anecdotal experiences of mine with this:
I did Tae Kwon Do, formal point sparring, for a few years. I was good, at least among my dojo. I could hold my own or even win among people with much more experience and rank than myself. I had the following rules because of my rank: no hitting below the belt, no punches to the face (only red belts or higher could), and no grabs, grapples, or takedowns.
A buddy talked me into going to an MMA gym with him. I went and I did pretty well against my first several sparring partners, because I was fast, and I was better at keeping the distance and kicking than they were at closing with me. An old guy saw me and asked me to come spar with him. He schooled me. Repeatedly. All of the bad and ineffective formal point based habits I did, he punished me every time I did them, not maliciously - but he humbled me. So I started going to this gym and picking up their stuff, and it took me a long time to unlearn a lot of things that would have hurt me in a real fight such as:
1. Relying too much on kicks, particularly kicks to the upper body.
2. Not having good follow through or power on my strikes - because in my mind I was just getting points. This took a long time to unlearn.
3. Training myself to get close, rather than keep the distance.
4. Remembering that I can punch people in the face.
5. As we had a self defense approach, lost of practice with improvised weapons and fighting for control of weapons.
Conversely, it was easy for me to apply NEW knowledge, such as:
1. Takedowns
2. Submissions
3. The clinch.
4. Knees and elbows.
So I got better. Now fast forward to the military, where I had to unlearn/learn things again.
I am US Navy, but have only served with Marines. When we do MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program) the curriculum is not bad, but most of the informal training is just practicing grappling, with no strikes or improvised weapons allowed. Also, we rarely train by weight class. So now, because of the rules imposed my favorites techniques (knees and elbows, and improvised weapons) are off the table.
I don't practice MCMAP with my Marines frequently. The reason is, most of the time they are practicing poorly regulated BJJ matches, not MCMAP or self defense. They want to avoid training injuries and the scrutiny they bring, but the end result is the people who train that way are not used to being hit, having to hit people, or having to violently grapple for control of a deadly weapon. I'm not a big guy (only 5'7" and 180 lbs.) and I usually end up wrestling people bigger than me. The tools in my tool box to win that fight is my scrappiness, my speed, and being willing to knee you in the mouth and elbow you in the face until you can't fight back, lol. None of which are allowed. So the problem is this:
Tae Kwon Do did not prepare me to fight like my life depended on it. Even though the younger me was in better shape and "well trained" if he and the current me got in a serious fight, I would demolish the younger me and either kill or put him in the hospital - but the kicker is I would probably do it before he even realized how outclassed he was simply because I am much more aggressive and willing to inflict serious bodily injury than him.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Cunassa is actually Kunaxa in English. You can read the whole of the aftermath of the battle here. http://www.gutenberg.org/files/1170/...#link2H_4_0019 It's generally considered a very good book, although I find this translation very heavy to read. There probably are summaries for Anabasis II and III if you look around.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garimeth
Wanted to comment on the idea of training getting in the way of other training. This is a very real thing, particularly in the context of Person Man's scenario of the informal vs. formal. A couple of anecdotal experiences of mine with this:
.
Great post.
I think one of the biggest problems we have in weapons training is how to react after a hit. In HEMA we are too ingrained to stop fighting after somebody gets hit. Not every club but my club definitely has this problem. The correct thing is if you were hit, to protect yourself so you don't get hit again and back out. If you scored a hit, same thing. But we are used to tournaments so we tend to drop our guard and stop fighting as soon as either person is hit. This leads to a lot of double-hits among other problems, also you shouldn't assume that one hit will disable.
The converse is almost as bad though. In FMA (like Dog Brothers etc.) you see the guys just keep fighting after a hit. This leads them to almost ignore defense and not even worry about the stick as most fights devolve into ground fighting very quickly. This is especially bad if you were trying to train to use Kris or Barong, but even with sticks it's stupid, because in a real fight you probably don't have a fencing mask or gloves so if somebody 'defangs your snake' (smacks your weapon hand) or tags you real good on your head, you are likely to get hurt a lot more than you are expecting.
The bottom line for me is that the most important thing to be trained with weapons anyway is defense. Too much emphasis on offense. I'm not impressed with someone who can score a hit, I want to see a fencer who can protect themselves. That is impressive.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
Great post.
I think one of the biggest problems we have in weapons training is how to react after a hit.
....
The bottom line for me is that the most important thing to be trained with weapons anyway is defense. Too much emphasis on offense. I'm not impressed with someone who can score a hit, I want to see a fencer who can protect themselves. That is impressive.
Both also good points. Even in BJJ or combat submission wrestling the "what to do after a hit" thing is a problem. Take an armbar. In a real honest to God fight, if I get an armbar off on an opponent, best case scenario is I break his arm. That doesn't mean the fight is over, particularly if the person had a weapon they had previously been reluctant to do, if they are on drugs, or if this is a life or death struggle.
With the protecting ourselves portion, I couldn't agree more - and that's also the real key to Person Man's character concept of fighting while outnumbered. Even in MMA when two evenly matched pros fight, there is a lot more defense than offense.
As far as HEMA specifically, while I've never done it myself, I would imagine another problem is capitalizing on your own scored hit. In Tae Kwon Do we would stop after a point was scored, when I started doing MMA I had a hard time getting used to continued aggression to capitalize on the openings. It was like being a boxer that never followed up on his jab. To this day I am still absolutely terrible at the boxing portion, lol.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garimeth
Both also good points. Even in BJJ or combat submission wrestling the "what to do after a hit" thing is a problem. Take an armbar. In a real honest to God fight, if I get an armbar off on an opponent, best case scenario is I break his arm. That doesn't mean the fight is over, particularly if the person had a weapon they had previously been reluctant to do, if they are on drugs, or if this is a life or death struggle.
That leads to a more critical point with armbars and similar techniques:
If you don't immediately break the joint, then what?
What if the pain doesn't make him submit?
What if a particular move just doesn't cause pain to a particular person?
Both are compounded by the longer you maintain such a hold, the longer the person has to move to effect better resistance, or to counter with their own technique.
That is particularly true in translating BJJ or combat submission wrestling to regular fighting, where someone can bite you or go for an eye gouge.
Locks and pain compliance techniques wind up where they are nice in theory, but in and of themselves are useless unless you immediately proceed to full destruction or otherwise exploit the reaction to the pain.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garimeth
more - and that's also the real key to Person Man's character concept of fighting while outnumbered. Even in MMA when two evenly matched pros fight, there is a lot more defense than offense.
As far as HEMA specifically, while I've never done it myself, I would imagine another problem is capitalizing on your own scored hit. In Tae Kwon Do we would stop after a point was scored, when I started doing MMA I had a hard time getting used to continued aggression to capitalize on the openings. It was like being a boxer that never followed up on his jab. To this day I am still absolutely terrible at the boxing portion, lol.
One thing I find in tournaments is that a lot of time, if I am fighting well enough to get hits, I'm in that "in the zone" mode, which the old German fencing manuals call "indes", and I can't really perceive time passing by the same way, actions seem to end before they even happen if you can follow that, and a lot of the time that means I've hit the guy 3 or 4 times before I realize I got a hit, even with the judges calling 'hit!!!"
This is why we have a referee with a stick to keep people apart. There seems to be a 2 or 3 second lag in awareness when you are "indes", you are letting your techniques flow through you and time is really distorted. But it does mean that quite often you do the finishing moves, including even throws and stabbing people on the ground.
Spoiler: Ref stopping a fight after a hit
Show
The hard part to me is making your 'finishing move' include "Abzug" - the safe exit. like cut / cut / stab / exit under guard... because even mutilated they could still lash out. The very best fencers are good at this (like Axel Petterson) but I think a lot of us get sort of frozen when we got a hit, the aggression / adrenaline takes over and you don't want to go backward. Sometimes that means you get hit or just sloppily touched with a weapon after you got a nice kill, and you lose your point.
G
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
A few Danish assasinations/killings:
The murder of Knud Lavard (wikipedia).
Quote:
Canute was the only legitimate son of Eric I of Denmark (+1103) and Boedil Thurgotsdatter but as a minor he was bypassed in the election of 1104. He grew up in close contact with the noble family of Hvide, who were later on to be among his most eager supporters. In 1115, his uncle, King Niels of Denmark, placed him in charge of the Duchy of Schleswig (jarl af Sønderjylland) in order to put an end to the attacks of the Slavic Obotrites. During the next fifteen years, he fulfilled his duty of establishing peace in the border area so well that he was titled Duke of Holstein (Hertug af Holsten) and became a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire.
He seems to have been the first member of the Danish royal family who was attracted by the knightly ideals and habits of medieval Germany, indicated by his changing his title to Duke of Schleswig (Hertug af Slesvig). His appearance made him a popular man and a possible successor of his uncle, but he also acquired mighty enemies among the Danish princes and magnates, who apparently questioned his loyalty and feared his bond with Emperor Lothair III, who had recognized him as sovereign over the western Wends. Whether these suspicions were just or not is impossible to say.
Both Niels and his son, Magnus the Strong, seem to have been alarmed by Canute's recognition by the emperor. On 7 January 1131, Canute was trapped in the Haraldsted Forest (Haraldsted Skov) near Ringsted in Zealand and murdered by Magnus. Ringsted Abbey, one of the earliest Benedictine houses in Denmark, became the initial resting place of Canute Lavard. In 1157, Canute Lavard's remains were moved into a new chapel at St. Bendt's Church in Ringsted. A chapel (Knut Lavards Kapel) was erected at the site of his death during medieval times but disappeared after the Reformation. The ruins were rediscovered in 1883. In 1902 a memorial in the form of a 4-metre crucifix was erected near the site of the death of Canute Lavard.
The blood feast in Rosklide (couldnt find a English description:
Basically Svend Grathe and Knud V each had been elected King of Denmark (for each their part); Svend Grathe had sworn fealty to Frederik Barbarossa to obtain his support, which was given, but on the condition that Knud V was given Zealland as fief, however Svend Grathe broke the agreement and forced Knud to leave. Valdemar (son of Knud lavard, but fostered in the Hvide family together with the later Bishop Absalon Hvide) should be given his fathers title as duke of Schleswig according to the deal. He intervened between Svend and Knud, and got passed that Knud should have Jutland as fief, while Svend the rest.
There was some anti-German nobeles, and Svend was generally unpopular (made laws without the things aproval and such things), and while Valdemar seem to have originally supported Svend Grathe he changed sides to Knuds party in 1154 and they forced Svend Grathe to flee the country. A new peace was established, where Valdemar got all of Jutland, Knud Funen and Zealand, while Svend was given Scania.
In a feast held to seal the peace treaty, Svends men attacked Knud and Valdemar, where Knud was killed by Ditev a from Ditmasken (one of Svend Grathes men), but Valdemar and his foster brother Absalon escaped.
Valdemar married the sister of Knud and defeated Svend Grathe in battle, did crusades in the Baltic and was generally a good king (as in: creating fair laws and leading the country to a prosperous period).
The murder of Finderup lade (from Wikipedia):
Quote:
Legend has it that several nobles swore an oath that they would murder Eric in revenge for personal slights or policies the king enforced that they did not like. Chief among the conspirators was Marshal (Danish: marsk) Stig Andersen Hvide and Jacob Nielsen, Count of Halland. They paid Rane Jonsen, one of the king's companions, to keep them informed as to the king's activities, in order to fulfill their oath.
November 1286 found the king at Viborg, in central Jutland. After a long day's hunt in the countryside led by Rane Jonsen, the king and a few attendants couldn't find their way back to the king's farm at Viborg. Rane suggested that they take shelter for the night of 22 November 1286 in the church barn in the village of Finderup. The assassins, dressed as Franciscan monks, were kept informed as to the kings' whereabouts and waited for everyone to settle down for the night. Once the king fell asleep, they rushed from their hiding places and stabbed and hacked the king to death. Tradition has it that he received 56 stab wounds. The folktale that grew up around this event has Stig Andersen personally striking the first blows in revenge for King Eric's seduction of Stig's wife while Stig himself was off with the king's army. Eric's bloody corpse was discovered the next morning
Other mentioning could be Niels Ebbesens assassination (well, they did beat a drum and proclaimed they did it to avoid the alligation), of Gerhard of Holstein.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
For famous 14 century artists check the below link.
http://renownedart.com/14c.php
You may notice that you got two Flemish painters who are in among the great artists in that century.
Flanders always was pretty much up there when it came to the renaissance and not that much later then Italy.
The difference was that they were more Gothic still in style and they combined the more modern architectural styles with Gothic elements.
There is also a substantial amount of music writers (Pierre de la Rue, Josquin des Prez, Heinrich Isaac, Johannes Prioris, Jacob Obrecht)
Flanders has a slow improvement in the 14th century that is on par with the early part of the renaissance in Italy but then backslides due to a substantial amount of wars for a while.
Late 15th century things are in full swing however and from this point on it produces artists, scientists in all fields going from cartography past mathematics to medicine.
There is composers of some fantastic music which end up influencing other parts of Europe (a certain person took a whole bunch of composers with him for his court...) throughout the century.
And all of this without trying to copy the Italian style but creating its own distinct character and style.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deadmeat.GW
For famous 14 century artists check the below link.
http://renownedart.com/14c.php
You may notice that you got two Flemish painters who are in among the great artists in that century.
Flanders always was pretty much up there when it came to the renaissance and not that much later then Italy.
The difference was that they were more Gothic still in style and they combined the more modern architectural styles with Gothic elements.
There is also a substantial amount of music writers (Pierre de la Rue, Josquin des Prez, Heinrich Isaac, Johannes Prioris, Jacob Obrecht)
Flanders has a slow improvement in the 14th century that is on par with the early part of the renaissance in Italy but then backslides due to a substantial amount of wars for a while.
Late 15th century things are in full swing however and from this point on it produces artists, scientists in all fields going from cartography past mathematics to medicine.
There is composers of some fantastic music which end up influencing other parts of Europe (a certain person took a whole bunch of composers with him for his court...) throughout the century.
And all of this without trying to copy the Italian style but creating its own distinct character and style.
Thanks for posting, great post.
It sounds like you know more about the region than I do, so obviously take what I suggest with a grain of salt, but I gathered that Flanders suffered some decline after the death of Charles the Bold in the 3rd quarter of the 15th Century, or at least once the Hapsburg wheeling and dealing ended up with the Spanish taking the area over. I had been given to understand that this is partly what lead a lot of the painters to move north into Hollland where active resistance to Spanish rule was more entrenched, and ultimately succeeded in reaching independence.
I've been researching the medieval Baltic for about 10 years now, and a little more broadly, the militias of the Free Cities of Central and Northern Europe and the context of the fencing manuals which come out of there. But in studying anything about medieval culture or technology you find first how much everything is interconnected, and second how prominent some places are in the cultural movement. Northern Italy (Florence, Bologna, Milan, Venice, Genoa, Brescia etc.) is obviously one of the most important epicenters of European culture especially from around 1150 to 1550 or so, probably the most important, but Flanders kept coming up over and over as well in my research, even though it is not as well known in the US as in Continental Europe. And even though I wasn't really looking for it. The towns of Bruges, Ghent, Ypres, Antwerp, Lille etc. seem to have been shining lights which developed an enormous number of really key cultural innovations, as you note, not copying the Italians but complimenting them. I think a lot of cultural commerce went back and forth (I may be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure Petrarch found the letters of Cicero in Flanders.), and through some of the key German cities in between (Augsburg, Nuremberg, Strasbourg, Cologne), during the late medieval period. And that is where you find the Late Medieval Renaissance first happening, in those places.
G
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobtor
Valdemar married the sister of Knud and defeated Svend Grathe in battle, did crusades in the Baltic and was generally a good king (as in: creating fair laws and leading the country to a prosperous period).
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there one of these Danish kings who was in a sort of three way contest with two brothers for the 'Game of Thrones', and one of them tried to kill the other two, they united to defeat him, and the one who became king actually gave his brother a position as bishop or something and they remained allies... almost unheard of in medieval primogeniture struggles.
Don't remember who this was exactly though I could look it up I think... maybe it rings a bell?
G
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
I think my favourite power struggle is that Visigothic King who was sent into a coma by an insufficient dose of poison and woke up to find that he had been tonsured and ordained monk in the meantime, so that he had to leave the crown.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garimeth
With the protecting ourselves portion, I couldn't agree more - and that's also the real key to Person Man's character concept of fighting while outnumbered. Even in MMA when two evenly matched pros fight, there is a lot more defense than offense.
Does make sense.
Also: PersonMan. Normally I wouldn't object, but I've been mistaken for Person_Man several times so I'd prefer my name is spelled as a single word.
Quote:
As far as HEMA specifically, while I've never done it myself, I would imagine another problem is capitalizing on your own scored hit. In Tae Kwon Do we would stop after a point was scored, when I started doing MMA I had a hard time getting used to continued aggression to capitalize on the openings. It was like being a boxer that never followed up on his jab. To this day I am still absolutely terrible at the boxing portion, lol.
If I'm reading this right, this would be a potential advantage for the person with 'informal' education, seeing as they wouldn't have any compunctions against following up a first hit with as many as needed to end the fight?
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PersonMan
Does make sense.
Also: PersonMan. Normally I wouldn't object, but I've been mistaken for Person_Man several times so I'd prefer my name is spelled as a single word.
If I'm reading this right, this would be a potential advantage for the person with 'informal' education, seeing as they wouldn't have any compunctions against following up a first hit with as many as needed to end the fight?
Yeah except the untrained guy isn't going to have much chance in a sword fight, at least from what I've seen. Most of the training is very counter-intuitive. It does depend on the weapon though too, longswords and rapiers are hard, single swords or sabers are a little bit easier to pick up.
G
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PersonMan
Does make sense.
Also: PersonMan. Normally I wouldn't object, but I've been mistaken for Person_Man several times so I'd prefer my name is spelled as a single word.
If I'm reading this right, this would be a potential advantage for the person with 'informal' education, seeing as they wouldn't have any compunctions against following up a first hit with as many as needed to end the fight?
I'm not offended in the least, as soon as you said that I remembered reading that in your sig. PersonMan it is!
So I would defer to these HEMA guys when it comes to fencing and the like, as I have experience training with sticks and improvised weapons, but not a lot with fencing or the like.
That said, my guess is that it would really depend. In a one on one fight, I think the advantage goes to whoever is the most willing to do violence or kill, as they are more likely to escalate quickly and then to also not stop until they win. In the outnumbered fight, I think its going to go with whoever is most situationally aware, and has the best movement fundamentals. The movement fundamentals of the formal student are probably better, but the street fighter probably has better situational awareness, unless that was something trained and drilled in the formal school.
But that's all just speculation, really.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tiktakkat
Locks and pain compliance techniques wind up where they are nice in theory, but in and of themselves are useless unless you immediately proceed to full destruction or otherwise exploit the reaction to the pain.
This is why the only people that really know how to fight up close anymore are the people that regularly get into fights. In military circles that means soldiers that regularly get into close combat situations where guns become useless (absurdly dangerous and generally avoided at all costs), or among civilians would criminal gangs. I can tell you right now I'd put my money on the Hell's Angel that gets in a bar brawl every other weekend over anybody that won an MMA title to win a life or death fight. The reason being is the biker is more prepared to actually do real, lasting damage to another human.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beleriphon
This is why the only people that really know how to fight up close anymore are the people that regularly get into fights. In military circles that means soldiers that regularly get into close combat situations where guns become useless (absurdly dangerous and generally avoided at all costs), or among civilians would criminal gangs. I can tell you right now I'd put my money on the Hell's Angel that gets in a bar brawl every other weekend over anybody that won an MMA title to win a life or death fight. The reason being is the biker is more prepared to actually do real, lasting damage to another human.
Absolutely. In my hometown, my MMA gym taught Modern Army Combatives. This was in 2005-2006. We had several recently redeployed soldiers get into some bar fights that our local cops tried to break up, and the cops got choked unconscious and the **** beat out of them.
I attribute it more to the being recently deployed portion than the training, because while MAC is good - its not THAT good. The person who is willing to escalate force further and more decisively is usually going to win.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garimeth
Absolutely... ...The person who is willing to escalate force further and more decisively is usually going to win.
That is pretty much the essence of Clausewitz, and the basis of the rapid mobilisation and deployment plans used by every country in the run up to ww1, that were so inflexible they led to the "war by railway timetable" moment during the opening moves of the Germans in WW1.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garimeth
The person who is willing to escalate force further and more decisively is usually going to win.
I guess it depends on how many are around and will shoot/brain him once they realize he's out for blood.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beleriphon
This is why the only people that really know how to fight up close anymore are the people that regularly get into fights. In military circles that means soldiers that regularly get into close combat situations where guns become useless (absurdly dangerous and generally avoided at all costs), or among civilians would criminal gangs. I can tell you right now I'd put my money on the Hell's Angel that gets in a bar brawl every other weekend over anybody that won an MMA title to win a life or death fight. The reason being is the biker is more prepared to actually do real, lasting damage to another human.
Pretty much.
That is why I constantly stress the psychological element in training.
It is all well and good to stand there and casually discuss how this hurts and that breaks and the other thing maims, but actually doing it is a whole other issue completely.
My go to story:
Back in college, I was sitting around in the TV room, vegetating. There was a fly buzzing about. I figured I'd go for "testing" myself and try to catch it.
And I did!
Snatched that sucker in mid-air.
Then sat there feeling completely full of myself.
Until I realized . . . THERE'S A FLY CRAWLING IN MY HAND!
So . . . yeah . . . never did THAT again.
Then you get into class and they teach you to spear hand an attacker in the eyes.
Ummm . . .
Eyeball goo anybody?
You really expect a person who comes in for a casual workout, a kata loving dojohound, or even a woman looking for rape defense, to actually put their fingers in someone's eyes, pull them out, look at their hand covered in blood and serum . . . and not hurk all over the place?
And when they start a technique like that then recoil when they realize what they are doing and are left completely open to retaliation, then what?
Mind you, I love teaching martial arts for all the exercise and personal development and that stuff.
But if you intend to get violent with it, it is critical to understand what that means, both for the person you hit and for your own mental state when you finish.
I know some awesome martial artists, with talent and knowledge beyond what I could hope to match.
I'd bet on the biker too.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
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Originally Posted by
Vinyadan
I guess it depends on how many are around and will shoot/brain him once they realize he's out for blood.
Well, that's a given. My statement is made with the assumption of a small, but mostly evenly matched even force, or even one on one.
That being said, look at almost any mass shooting. One person willing to do violence can injure or kill a much larger number if that group is not willing to do violence - regardless of their using a firearm or not. Part of it is the essence of being the one expecting or prepared for the violence too. As an example of that look at the Fort Hood shootings. There, as opposed to most mass shootings, you are dealing with a trained population - but Major Hassan still inflicted a bit of damage. He was armed, they were not, but more importantly he knew what was going on whereas they had to process that this was happening somewhere they felt safe.
Conversely, I had a buddy on a patrol in Afghanistan, and their Afghan National Army (ANA) patrol had a Taliban mole accompanying him. He fell to the back of the patrol and tried to shoot one of our Marines, well to be fair he DID shoot him, just not effectively. Regardless, the ANA guy only got off one round before the whole rest of the patrol gunned him down. They were in the tactical headspace - and so reacted much more quickly and lethally.
As an unarmed example I had a buddy that walked in on a ANA guy drilling some policing techniques with a Marines. It was not hostile, but my buddy has serious PTSD. He walks in and all he sees is this ANA guy pointing a (unloaded, no magazine) M4 at his Marine. My buddy kicked the dude in the chest as hard as he could, and then snatched the rifle from him and was about to shoot the guy before the Marines could even explain what was happening.
There is a lot to be said for being the first guy to strike, and being willing to strike hard. I'll fight anyone in the world, as long as I get the first hit and they don't know its coming, lol. And for the record, I am not, nor do I think I am, in any way a badass.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Regarding armor in hot climates:
I'm developing D&D settings that explore non-European cultures and locales, but I'm running into the problem of armor. Most armors get quite hot, even in temperate zones—I could scarcely imagine trying to wear plate in a tropical environment. The Crusaders suffered terribly trying to wear their native garb in the Holy Land. Yet I remember that cataphracts, covered head to toe in scale (on barded horses to boot), were invented in the Middle East, so plainly there is some ability to use heavier armor in the heat.
For those with in-depth erudition or real-life experience of this topic: What are your thoughts and experiences? How practical would it be for a warrior in Mesopotamia to wear heavy European-style armor? Egypt? India? The equator? Are there ways armor could be made less oppressive while minimizing sacrifice of protective value?
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
The Middle East is a variate area, climatically speaking. There are no deserts in Turkey, and, while there are two deserts in Iran, one of which is pretty much impassable, most of the land isn't. So it's very possible that the cataphracts very rarely had to venture into deserts. You can search about Mamluk and Arab cavalry, they might have had some trick. In general, however, people of the desert had radically different tactics from the Europeans. This has many different reasons, among which there certainly is climate, but also different terrain and landscape: enormous plains aren't that common in Western Europe, and those in Eastern Europe tend to make a lot of swamps, while large, flat, sandy deserts are a different deal. They mean a wholly different kind of movement etc.
Anyway, assuming you are interested into single units, a white mantle on the armour and trying to only wear armour when you have to fight and trying to fight at night are the only things I can think of. Arab infantrymen tended to use mail or boiled leather.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
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Originally Posted by
Storm Bringer
That is pretty much the essence of Clausewitz, and the basis of the rapid mobilisation and deployment plans used by every country in the run up to ww1, that were so inflexible they led to the "war by railway timetable" moment during the opening moves of the Germans in WW1.
I think the experience of the Franco-Prussian war added into that, too. Prussia wasn't just willing / able to escalate, they could do so so quickly that their men were fighting, in France, while some French soldiers were still milling around trying to find their units so they could head off to the front.
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Re: Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
VoxRationis
Regarding armor in hot climates:
I'm developing D&D settings that explore non-European cultures and locales, but I'm running into the problem of armor. Most armors get quite hot, even in temperate zones—I could scarcely imagine trying to wear plate in a tropical environment. The Crusaders suffered terribly trying to wear their native garb in the Holy Land. Yet I remember that cataphracts, covered head to toe in scale (on barded horses to boot), were invented in the Middle East, so plainly there is some ability to use heavier armor in the heat.
Cataphracts were more from the area we'd think of as Turkey, Syria and Israel. So its hot, but its also no a desert.
Quote:
For those with in-depth erudition or real-life experience of this topic: What are your thoughts and experiences? How practical would it be for a warrior in Mesopotamia to wear heavy European-style armor? Egypt? India? The equator? Are there ways armor could be made less oppressive while minimizing sacrifice of protective value?
The Mesopotamian flood plains? Not terribly since once you leave the area you're basically into desert in nearly every direction. Egypt outside of the flood plains you're in one of the most in hospitable regions in the world. Like insanely inhospitable, the only place conceivably worse in Africa is Kalahari. The Sahara is the same land area s the entire USA.
The thing to keep mind much of the armour one would consider endemic to the regions of equatorial Africa, South America and South East Asia is that they are driven by resources, cultural applications of war (for example Incas didn't engage in war the way Charlemenge would have). The Chinese dynasties certainly would have used plate armour to a degree, perhaps no full blow articulated plate or plate-and-mail but they used a variety of different armours that aren't that different then European construction other than stylistic differences in fit and finish.