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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
I don't really watch streams either.
Day 9 was better back in sc2, where he was actually someone you could learn from. He's a good entertainer but a terrible HS player, watching him is so frustrating.
Other than that, I know most of the big names and have probably caught them once or twice, but really, when I watch something game-related (which is kinda rare; I'd rather just play) I'm usually catching a tournament, either on twitch or youtube (of HS or Heroes of the Storm, the only other game I play)
Obvious shout out goes to Trump, who was the big guru back when I started (as for many of us)
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nerocite
If you think arena is free from the tyranny of druids...
Spoiler: You're wrong
Show
When you think about it, it's basically Firelands Portal Plus.
Firelands Portal: 7 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a 5-mana minion
Ultimate Infestation: 10 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a slightly subpar 5-mana minion, gain 5 armor, draw 5 cards
In other words, you're basically paying 3.5 mana to draw 5 cards and gain 5 armor.
That's really good.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
I'm trying to make a Secret Mage deck for the Lich King, using the Kabal Crystal Runner exploit on T1. Any pointers besides that?
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Molten Giants are a good option, too. If he doesn't have Obliterate, smacking him for 16 on turns 3-4-5-6 nets you the win. Add Echo of Medivh.
I suppose if you go Kabal Lackey + Counterspell you could try an Exodia mage with Thaurissan instead of the quest. Aside from requiring a Doomsayer on 7 his offense is pretty limited.
Note: I don't care much for the single player content, and have actually only beaten the Lich King once (with the Jade druid deck I mentioned). So take my advice with a grain of salt. I also never finished Heroic me in any adventure.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandariel
Molten Giants are a good option, too. If he doesn't have Obliterate, smacking him for 16 on turns 3-4-5-6 nets you the win. Add Echo of Medivh.
I suppose if you go Kabal Lackey + Counterspell you could try an Exodia mage with Thaurissan instead of the quest. Aside from requiring a Doomsayer on 7 his offense is pretty limited.
Note: I don't care much for the single player content, and have actually only beaten the Lich King once (with the Jade druid deck I mentioned). So take my advice with a grain of salt. I also never finished Heroic me in any adventure.
Lackey+Counterspell stops the spell, Lackey+Mana Bind allows you to send it right back at him. I'll try out the Exodia Mage chassis when next I get a chance. I'm not sure I have the molten giants tho.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Beat the Lich King with my buff priest again. Haven't tried any other classes yet - not sure I've got the cards.
In terms of streamer, I enjoy watching 10 minute HS videos while I'm making dinner or doing the dishes. It's the ideal length.
I used to really enjoy Amaz and I still tend to watch his youtube posts, but I've gone off him a bit. He's more salty than he used to be - goes on about unfair, that card should be banned, etc.
I like Hafu. She's fun and actually seems to be enjoying herself. And that's why I like Kibler - I love his attitude. He always has fun: even if he's getting reamed he's just like 'wow, they've got a great deck, how cool!' And I like his deck creating ideas.
I used to watch Noxious. I can't stand Trump - he just grates.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
It is amazing how unfun druid makes the game :/ Done playing now. Maybe they will start trying to balance the game after jade rotates out.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Legoshrimp
It is amazing how unfun druid makes the game :/ Done playing now. Maybe they will start trying to balance the game after jade rotates out.
I am feeling rather justified in my argument from pre-expansion right now - the problem with Jade Druid wasn't the Jades as such, but rather Jades + really good card draw from Auctioneer. With Ultimate Infestation providing a guaranteed really good Auctioneer turn, Jade goes out of control even more than it already was.
Of course, Spreading Plague was still a really dumb card to give them. Yes, lets give the best lategame deck in the game one of the best delaying cards in the game. What could possibly go wrong??
I'm happy just chilling in Arena until things clear up. With the sheer amount of Druids on ladder right now, I really can't see Blizzard letting this stand. They'll take a long time like they always do, but something is gonna get hit with the nerf bat.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rodin
I am feeling rather justified in my argument from pre-expansion right now - the problem with Jade Druid wasn't the Jades as such, but rather Jades + really good card draw from Auctioneer. With Ultimate Infestation providing a guaranteed really good Auctioneer turn, Jade goes out of control even more than it already was.
Of course, Spreading Plague was still a really dumb card to give them. Yes, lets give the best lategame deck in the game one of the best delaying cards in the game. What could possibly go wrong??
I'm happy just chilling in Arena until things clear up. With the sheer amount of Druids on ladder right now, I really can't see Blizzard letting this stand. They'll take a long time like they always do, but something is gonna get hit with the nerf bat.
Yeah, UI is powerful, but it just makes an already powerful endgame even better.
Spreading Plague was the worst card they got. Jade was kept in check by aggro/zoo overwhelming them in the early game, and winning before it gets too out of hand. Spreading Plague is basically play one card, gain two rounds against any aggro/zoo deck. Two rounds gives Jade the time it needs to stabilize and gets into a dominant board position that aggro has no way to realistically recover from.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rodin
I am feeling rather justified in my argument from pre-expansion right now - the problem with Jade Druid wasn't the Jades as such, but rather Jades + really good card draw from Auctioneer. With Ultimate Infestation providing a guaranteed really good Auctioneer turn, Jade goes out of control even more than it already was.
Of course, Spreading Plague was still a really dumb card to give them. Yes, lets give the best lategame deck in the game one of the best delaying cards in the game. What could possibly go wrong??
I'm happy just chilling in Arena until things clear up. With the sheer amount of Druids on ladder right now, I really can't see Blizzard letting this stand. They'll take a long time like they always do, but something is gonna get hit with the nerf bat.
I don't think they even run auctioneer anymore, no need with so much other card draw.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CarpeGuitarrem
When you think about it, it's basically Firelands Portal Plus.
Firelands Portal: 7 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a 5-mana minion
Ultimate Infestation: 10 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a slightly subpar 5-mana minion, gain 5 armor, draw 5 cards
In other words, you're basically paying 3.5 mana to draw 5 cards and gain 5 armor.
That's really good.
Another way to look at it is that they took Starfire, and then stapled on Shieldmaiden and Sprint for only 4 more mana. No matter how you slice it, it's a nutty card, especially on turn 6 with Innverates.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nerocite
Another way to look at it is that they took Starfire, and then stapled on Shieldmaiden and Sprint for only 4 more mana. No matter how you slice it, it's a nutty card, especially on turn 6 with Innverates.
or they took old ancient of lore, gave it both effects, deal 5 damage, and draw another 3 cards. for 3 more mana.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Don't people tend to complain that 10-mana cards are bad because they should be massive, decisive plays? It seems like UI fits that bill.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Don't people tend to complain that 10-mana cards are bad because they should be massive, decisive plays? It seems like UI fits that bill.
I feel people attribute the problems of Jade Idol to UI. The 10 mana card is very okay. It is just the synergy with Jade Idols that is extremely unhealthy for the game.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Don't people tend to complain that 10-mana cards are bad because they should be massive, decisive plays? It seems like UI fits that bill.
IMO, it would still be playable at "draw 3 cards", it's that good. Possibly even "draw 2 cards".
I think it tips way too far to the side of "massively powerful 10-mana card". Plus, there's the factor that you can Innervate/Wild Growth it out, and it automatically gives you back the card advantage that you lost when playing them, while also cycling into your deck heavily.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Don't people tend to complain that 10-mana cards are bad because they should be massive, decisive plays? It seems like UI fits that bill.
I think it's a combination of
Jade Druid was already a pretty good deck.
Ramp lets them get around the whole "dead card for first 9 turns".
Draw lets them get around the "oh noes I spent all my cards on ramp now I have nothing to play".
Jade Idol allows them to ignore "oh whoops I drew 16 cards in 12 turns now I'm about to deck out.
Them getting several other strong cards this expansion.
Any one or maybe two of these things would be A-ok. But all of them at once, where most other decks haven't gotten much significant boost is too much.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rosstin
Congrats!
For streamers:
Savjz / Kibler / Dog for the semi-serious decks; they're generally pretty positive too. I usually watch these streamers if I'm watching Twitch and they're on.
JustSaiyan / Zalae / Strifecro / Firebat for the general good analysis of their play and to try to get better.
Hafu for arena and for the cute Twitch emotes for my Twitch Prime sub.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandariel
Obvious shout out goes to Trump, who was the big guru back when I started (as for many of us)
funny thing, I just faced him today on my phone using my quest warrior deck, and beat him by making him give up. small world huh?
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Not to pop your bubble, but there are a lot of users named Trump, so it's unlikely you played the real streamer. The surest way would be to check his past streams and see if you can find your game, but frankly I wouldn't care too much about it.
(Bonus: Maybe you beat Donald Trump!)
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandariel
Not to pop your bubble, but there are a lot of users named Trump, so it's unlikely you played the real streamer. The surest way would be to check his past streams and see if you can find your game, but frankly I wouldn't care too much about it.
(Bonus: Maybe you beat Donald Trump!)
*shrug* oh well. still feels good, even if only by proxy way, for either of them.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Don't people tend to complain that 10-mana cards are bad because they should be massive, decisive plays? It seems like UI fits that bill.
There's a difference between a 10 mana card, and 10 mana worth of effects. 10 Mana cards usually do one thing very well (like Mind control, Pyroblast, ect). So, they're only good in the situation where that one thing is exactly what you need to do.
10 mana worth of effects are more versatile. If you have 10 mana worth of effects in your hand, then you can mix and match the effects you need, or have played them earlier.
Consider Ultimate Infestation. We can basically "Build" ultimate Infestation by combining several cards.
Starfire (6 mana), deal 5 damage, draw a card.
Arcane Intellect x2 (4 mana), Draw 4 cards.
Shieldmaiden (6 Mana), 5/5 gain 5 armor.
So, Ultimate Infestation gets you the same effect as playing 16 mana worth of cards. Normally, that would be fine. 10 Mana cards are limited by the fact that they take your entire turn, and are unplayable before turn 10. But, Ultimate Infestation doesn't do one thing, it does 4 things. It's a generalist 10 mana card with 16 mana worth of effects, all of which are generically good, non-situational effects.
Pyroblast is only good if the one thing you want to do this turn is deal 10 damage.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Ultimate infestation is a card that surrenders tempo, that's why it's okay. Especially if the other field doesn't have anything with 5 or less health (as is common around turn 10). Like, a 5/5 on turn 10 is weak. 5 life on turn 10 is weak. 5 damage on turn 10 is weak. The card itself is strong if you play it and wind up even or ahead on tempo because they have something important with 5 or less health and can't kill you, but it's awful if they have a significant board. In some other environments, it would be entirely unplayable because killing one guy and gaining 5 health would ensure you died the next turn.
A big part of the problem, as well, isn't ultimate infestation itself, but the fact that one of, if not the premier aggro decks in the format right now is also druid. If you keep a hand with strong early and midrange plays and build your board aggressively early, you can make Jade lose the game while ultimate infestation sits in their hand as a worthless card (example: warlock playing turn 4 mountain giant, turn 5 faceless taunt copy). But if you keep a hand of reasonable starting and midrange cards, you might get rolled over by aggro druid buffing it's guys before you draw your removal. Whereas if you keep your removal, the control druid gets that extra turn or two build up and can safely play ultimate infestation to restock. It's the fact that a different archetype that requires a different mulligan exists that is offering them the time to make ultimate infestation good.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
How the heck is removing a 5 health minion and playing one of your own at the same time "bad tempo"? Where I'm from, that's called Firelands Portal, a.k.a. the reason why Mage dominated Arena (which is ALL Tempo) back in Karazhan.
Sure, it's not absolute maximum tempo. But it's still quite decent tempo while encompassing a heal AND the single best card draw effect in the game into it.
Druids are a problem right now because they're able to mana ramp up fast, dump their hand on the board faster than their opponents, and then maintain tempo while refilling their hand.
UI isn't the only thing making Druid nuts right now, but it's certainly a major contributing factor. Some combination of the below needs to be addressed:
Ramp
Jades, particularly Idol
Ultimate Infestation
Spreading Plague
Honorable mention: Auctioneer, as a card that would replace UI if it becomes bad.
The whole combo together is what makes it utterly nuts. Druids get more mana than other classes. They aren't punished for spending the time getting that, because Spreading Plague. They aren't punished spending the cards to get that mana, because Ultimate Infestation (and before that, Auctioneer). Once they have more mana and cards, they have the best way to take advantage of that in the game with Infinite Jades.
Some part of that ladder needs to be kicked out. Jade Druid without card draw isn't that threatening. Ramp Druid without early game protection can be countered by aggro decks. Ultimate Infestation is less crushing if it's actually played on turn 10 instead of on turn 5 or 6.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
I'm feeling like what they should do is just go ahead and nerf Innervate for good.
Either "refill 2 of your mana crystals" or "next minion you play this turn costs 2 less"(like Prep) would safely and uniformly reduce druid's power level without losing his identity. Innervate would still see play in 100% of druid decks, too.
Either that, or make spreading Plague cap at 3 or something
Also:ultimate infestation is not bad tempo: it's a really strong effect in every sense: it draws you five cards and puts you in a perfect position to use those cards. It's Firelands portal, except it also protects you from other minions because of the armor, and it lets you reload.
Just to clarify, I don't think this card is overpowered or anything: it's absolutely fine IMO. It is balanced by its mana cost, simply. Nobody goes around counting the stats that N'zoth routinely pulls and complains it's bigger than Ultrasaur, after all.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandariel
I'm feeling like what they should do is just go ahead and nerf Innervate for good.
Either "refill 2 of your mana crystals" or "next minion you play this turn costs 2 less"(like Prep) would safely and uniformly reduce druid's power level without losing his identity. Innervate would still see play in 100% of druid decks, too.
Either that, or make spreading Plague cap at 3 or something
Also:ultimate infestation is not bad tempo: it's a really strong effect in every sense: it draws you five cards and puts you in a perfect position to use those cards. It's Firelands portal, except it also protects you from other minions because of the armor, and it lets you reload.
Just to clarify, I don't think this card is overpowered or anything: it's absolutely fine IMO. It is balanced by its mana cost, simply. Nobody goes around counting the stats that N'zoth routinely pulls and complains it's bigger than Ultrasaur, after all.
Except you have to build around nzoth. So you are already making sacrifices in terms of deck building. What are you sacrificing to run UI?
Also sure if you remove other parts of druid UI wouldn't be nearly as strong, but some part of druid needs to get nerfed really soon.
The only reason why the win rate isn't higher is because they are facing other druids a significant portion of the time.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gandariel
It's Firelands portal, except it also protects you from other minions because of the armor, and it lets you reload.
Just to clarify, I don't think this card is overpowered or anything: it's absolutely fine IMO. It is balanced by its mana cost, simply. Nobody goes around counting the stats that N'zoth routinely pulls and complains it's bigger than Ultrasaur, after all.
If Firelands portal cost 10 mana, it would be bad tempo. Drawing cards (excepting the particular draw of innervate into wrath) also is not a tempo play. Playing arcane intellect or Nourish is a tempo loss the turn they're played. I stand by the evaluation that average firelands portal with 5 life added onto it is a tempo loss when you increase the mana cost by 3. UI is only a good use of 10 mana if you're not in a position to get killed when you're playing it, and it won't solve the problem if you're badly losing the board, or if their only guy out has more than 5 life.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarion
If Firelands portal cost 10 mana, it would be bad tempo. Drawing cards (excepting the particular draw of innervate into wrath) also is not a tempo play. Playing arcane intellect or Nourish is a tempo loss the turn they're played. I stand by the evaluation that average firelands portal with 5 life added onto it is a tempo loss when you increase the mana cost by 3. UI is only a good use of 10 mana if you're not in a position to get killed when you're playing it, and it won't solve the problem if you're badly losing the board, or if their only guy out has more than 5 life.
Sure it doesn't literally say win the game, so it is a tempo loss for a 10 mana card. It just doesn't matter because most of the time it is played on turns with 6-8 mana. Honestly it is probably more likely to be played at the same time as firelands portal a lot of the time. Because of ramp druid gets essentially free mana. So a 10 mana card is facing 7 mana cards.
Also sure it isn't always the best tempo play, but it is never going to be really bad tempo either, and it makes up for being the single best card draw in the game.
Edit: Even if it was a bad tempo play it has huge advantages otherwise, especially since druid has the tools to survive a few bad tempo plays. They play it before turn 10 most of the time so even if it is bad tempo for a 10 cost card, it is actually more like a 6-8 cost card in practice. I also think spreading plague might be one of the best anti aggro cards in the game.
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Got my golden Mage (with Khadgar but it flipped to Jaina for Golden). So, now four golden heroes in the following order: Warlock (mostly zoo, some combo Renolock), Warrior (Tempo, Dragon Warrior), Hunter (Midrange, aggro), and Mage (Mech, Gunther, Secret).
I got completely wrecked by a Secret Mage the previous day. I got my Jade going and managed to get both Counterspells out before I hit my UI turn. He puts up another secret and I use my UI... and it's Mana Bind XD
If you think Ultimate Infestation is broken at 10 mana, imagine it at 0...
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Re: Hearthstone 20: What is your Quest?
Wow, this brawl is pretty crazy.
Druid turn 1: Play a 7/11 Taunt, an 8/7 with summon 2 2/2's deathrattle, and a 9/7 taunt. Oh, and ramp to four mana crystals.
Cost 20 health, but still.