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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I don't know if anyone has thought of this, but perhaps the fight with Ansom is being saved for the actual printed book. It was said that the book would contain action stuff that isn't needed to understand the story, but is cool.
A page of Ansom falling while Bogroll punches him in the face isn't necessary to understand the story, but it's cool.
Seeing him pwned on the ground is needed to understand the story.
So that's my logic in all of this. I may actually buy the published book then, and I've never bought any webcomic books before.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
A quote from a recent movie/not so recent comic book seems to suit the situation for Parson:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach
None of you understand. I'm not locked in here with you. You're locked in here with me.
A quick offscreen death for who had up to then been an important character seems quite surprising, but it suits a character like Ansom.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Oracle_Hunter
That sir, was
one massive Chekov's Gun!
I, too, was shocked to find Ansom
and Bogroll dead. Well done! Too bad Sizemore couldn't grab the Pliers though.
EDIT: Hey, Red Warlord survived the 4Chan! More surprises! :smalleek:
Redhead was not a part of the 4Chan only the Duke Nozzle and the Blue Warlord
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
surtt
I am sitting here in shock and disbelief.
Thinking Amson somhow is still alive.
Same as I would if someone really died.
I am not complaining.
It was masterfully done.
I 100% agree.
My first thought was "They BOTH died?!". You will be missed Bogroll! And killing Ansom offscreen was totally unexpected. I think that it was a very interesting move but I can see how other people are upset about it.
While I was still in WTF mode over the 2 deaths, they go and blow up the city! I was totally shocked. Amazing strip! Yeah it was a massive Chekhov's Gun, and somehow it was still completely unexpected! Awesome!
And the OOTS strip was pretty amazing too. I wouldn't be surprised if the forums explode for quite a while over these two strips :)
Edit: I know there's been all sorts of speculation on who the pliers are attuned to, but I'm kinda thinking that Spoiler
Show
maybe Jillian and Vinnie show up next turn and Jillian (or maybe Vinnie) picks up the pliers and swears to avenge Ansom's death and finds out that the pliers are attuned to her (or him). Depending on what abilities the Pliers grant to the one who is attuned to it, it could quite likely be another huge threat to Parson and Co.
And yeah, somebody pointed out that Sizemore is probably going to be pretty shaken up because of what Parson ordered him to do in this strip... Poor Sizemore :(
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
All I can say is...
Holy booping boop!!! :eek:
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Well, that's ONE way to get Charlie to not take the city.
After all, he got into this fight to MAKE money, not spend it rebuilding a city...
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
And so Parson killed his only friend. Was it worth it to get rid of one pompous fool?
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Wow. That was more than I'd expected. I feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Its now become a real war story. Ansom was just too "larger than life" and seemingly necessary to the plot to have expected such a swift, permanent defeat.
I love it!
And the volcano?!
Ruthlessness indeed.
Doesn't look like Parson's worried about the cooalition. He appears to be digging in for the big fight against Charlie.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pendell
Not so.
Heroism is a matter of myth, not of fact.
Ansom died through treachery. Of such stories legends are made. Remember Captain Kirk? He couldn't be defeated fairly, so whoever-it-was killed him sneakily. Same with all the outlaw ballads I can recall. The protaganist is always betrayed , because he's just too damn awesome to lose in a fair fight.
War is one thing, but legends are another.
I imagine they'll make legends about Ansom, the way we Americans make legends about Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson. The fact that these romantic, dashing figures were eventually beaten by prosaic, unromantic realists is something that is only remembered in history books.
For there to be legends about Ansom, someone would have to survive to tell what happened (the Archons don't seem to be the type.)
Legends are, generally written by the winners; the point about heroism being a matter of myth and not fact is because it doesn't have to be true. Robert E. Lee was lucky enough to be fighting a civil war, so he could survive and the the victors didn't really have to grind his name into the dirt. You rarely hear stories of British heroism during the revolutionary war, though.
Parson can make the legend of this story about how Ansom's pride got him killed by a lowly twoll. Heck, he can make the legend of this story about how Ansom treacherously tried and failed to stab him in the back during a parley if he wants to -- who is going to say otherwise? Heroism is just a matter of being the only one left alive to write the stories.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hatu
Well, for starters I'd have preferred if Ansom hadn't suddenly become stupid enough to accept a knave's surrender all alone, deep in enemy territory at the knave's own insistence, much less within arms reach of said knave. That would have helped.
He wasn't alone, he had the archons with him... as for why they did not assist, it is possible that Ansom fell below the zone crossing line, and thus fell where the archons could not follow to catch him or attack... Had Parson tried to use crossbowmen on Ansom, the Achons would have toasted them... if not, Ansom always had the option to will his carpet to retreat had attackers showed up; he saw Parson out there alone, if Parson fought him one-on-one Ansom would meet the challange and win, if more enemy troops showed up, Ansom would see them fast enough to tell his carpet to retreat... Bogroll's attack was surprising in that not only was it point back, but it was suicidal
not to mention with the foolamancer gone, Ansom would not know they could use foolamancy... he looked at the situtation and saw it as Parson put himself in as much danger as he himself, if not more so; espeically since Parson would never pull off a one-man attack and Bogroll's victory is thanks to the fact that it was a suicde attack which Ansom would not expect Parson himself to use
Ansom is a man of pride and rules, he is what one might call "lawful stupid"... when an enemy surrenders in a hopeless situtation, or when you make a deal of anykind you expect others to follow the rules as you would... think of the american revolution in how the british fought versus how the americans fought...
Quote:
Secondly, if Ansom's final demise was going to depend entirely on Charlie's forces suddenly wanting him dead after they had just saved his bacon for the second time in a row, I'd like to know why.
This however ASSUMES that their was anything charlies archons could do to save him... they can't cross battle zones into the courtyard, and thus if Ansom falls into the courtyard zone, the achons are unable to follow, and we don't know exactly where the courtyard zone and the airzone border
Quote:
Thirdly, I'd prefer if Ansom's final defeat didn't just happen because it was suddenly time to wrap up the Ansom storyline. Why on earth did Parson wait until this point to pull this trick? Why didn't he pretend to surrender after Ansom turned the tables on Wanda and broke into the city? There doesn't seem to be any reason this wouldn't have worked just as well then, and it would have made defending the courtyard a lot easier if it had worked. If it hadn't worked then, Parson would be no worse off than if it hadn't worked now.
because the trick would have been less likely to work... Ansom might have been skeptical if Parson surrendered when he still had the majority of his forces intact. Parson used that trick at the time when he was really against the wall, when Ansom thought he was against the walls... the way Ansom saw it parson had played his final hand and was totally out of options...
Furtharmore, the trick goes well with the timing of collapsing the city... Just loosing their leader would spoil their moral a bit, but the coalition would still fight on... but destorying the city right after that and causing them massive casualties and damage, along with having numerous leadership units croaked, would make them feel like they were in a hopeless position
in fact, had Ansom croaked before the attack on the courtyard, the coalition might have decided to wait 1 turn before attacking the courtyard and thus have charlies aid in the courtyard fight... remember, parson knew ANSOM would attack the courtyard without waiting because of his pride; he could not be sure that the other members of the coalition shared his pride... with the loss of their leader, the coalition might have been more willing to wait until charlie could join them, which would have screwed Parson completely... parson NEEDED them to attack right away
Quote:
Finally, I think having Ansom die to a single attack and a long fall is both utterly incredible and pathetically anti-climactic. We just saw Wanda survive a long fall after an assault from an Archon army that could have captured the entire damn city (including Wanda). But now Ansom dies to a fall after an attack from a single unit. How am I supposed to take this as anything other than plot armor being selectively applied? The fact that half of his defeat was off-camera just makes it worse.
Wanda took ZERO damage from the archons... the damage she took was 100% falling damage and it was enough to bring her to the near brink of death... Ansom on the other hand not only took the falling damage but also has additional damaged from the crushing weight of a twoll landing on top of him, followed by possible hits bogroll might have gotten in before croaking
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alexei P
And so Parson killed his only friend. Was it worth it to get rid of one pompous fool?
He wasn't one pompous fool. He has shown himself to be very capable to adapting to Parson's tactics, and is clearly bestowing massive leadership bonus to his forces.
Bogroll would have died with the rest of them when Ansom disbanded the city. He would have died a gopher and a body double.
He chose to serve his lord Hamster and died a hero. (Probably Jetstone's third most villified citizen of GK.) The real test for GK is whether they remember how one lowly twoll changed EVERYTHING and gave his life for theirs. Or if they just forget about him.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
This one was unexpected...
It's sad that Bogroll is dead, but it would have been surprising if he had survived. Well, he survived...but only once. About Ansom dying offscreen, I like it. He died like just another normal human, without much attention (from the reader, his army would pay more attention of course).
It would make a terrifying sight - the enemy warlord making a suicidal move just to throw your guy off the tower...and AFTER that hell breaks loose...just nice.
The irony is, that Bogroll got his heroic scene...
this is what I like about this comic - they are not using stereotypes.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
That was... abrupt. I half-expected Ansom to die on the spot, but I did think that we would see Bogroll get in a few swings before he went down. Given that Red is kneeling next to Ansom, I'd imagine that she was the one to take Bogroll down (if indeed he was standing after that fall. He did level twice, so is possible).
A few other tidbits - I didn't see any archons in this strip. Author blooper, or did Charlie use his teleport ability to get them out of there? I daresay the second option is the correct one; I doubt that Charlie wants to get into a fight with Parson by staying when he can leave and extend job offers later.
Second, we officially have uncroaked marbits!
Third, this solves a major problem that Parson was going to have on his turn. The problem was that if Ansom entered the tower or the dungeon, then the corpses from this turn would be in different hexes. If only one hex could be uncroaked, that would limit the total number possible to be uncroaked. Unless they just moved all the bodies:smalltongue:
Lastly, it is pretty uncertain whether Red will get away with the pliers. She would have almost full move, having started from right outside the city. If she survived the collapse of the tunnels... I am sure we will find out soon. Guess it depends on whether Parson orders cleanup operations.
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Erfwold 145, The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Sorry I didn't see it since it wasn't stickied and I thought you could delete threads, could someone please delete this?
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hatu
Well, this was everything I was hoping Ansom's defeat would not be: contrived, abrupt and utterly unsatisfying.
Very disappointing.
-H
Contrived? Contrived? Do you even know the meaning of that word? This is the exact opposite of contrived. This was not only simplicity at it's finest, but Bogroll's attack on Ansom itself was foreshadowed.
In no way was this "labored" or "artificial".
Whether you found it satisfying or not is your opinion and you're entitled to it, but don't toss around words that don't apply.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zael Zuran
Bogroll would have died with the rest of them when Ansom disbanded the city.
But then, Ansom would have been the killer. Not Parson.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I guess now is when we enter "Erfworld: The Aftermath of Gobwin Knob?"
You know, I think a klog would be in order soon.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
That was Booping Awesome! It was sudden and shocking, but every part of it was heavily foreshadowed. Actually, I had expected Parson to collapse all the tunnels the first time Jetstone filled them with troops. Good thing he didn't. Brilliant, brilliant storytelling.
Soooo, it sounds like those Arkenpliers are buried under tons of rock! I guess that means it'll take a lookamancer to find them and a dirtamancer to get them--or lots of guys with picks and shovels.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
My money is on Ansom being uncroaked. You know, the version that takes several turns to accomplish and lasts practically forever.
And maybe then he'll be terminated for good by the Arkenpliers. Just another common undead to re-croak during a battle...
But I also think that Charlie is being set up as the main villain. Or antagonist, rather. He's the only one who's a real match for Parson.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
the only part of the ansom being the murderer not parson is that parson would ALSO probably be dead.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Great page. Really brought back that "Parson wins in spite of everything" feeling to the strip, which had been absent for a long time.
I'm extremely surprised that most of you don't seem to realize that Ansom HAD to die both offscreen, and abruptly. He is not a villian, a hero, or a main character. He's a caricature, and a hint as to the scope of the conflict.
This is a character and idealogy study, and Ansom did not possess enough personality to last forever. Stanley may not, either. I wouldn't count anyone out, as far as turning into a major villain.
The particular venue, a turn based strategy game in which the most barbaric and unimaginable things are just things you put your cursor on, is probably both the inspiration, ironic tone, and conclusion of the entire story.
And don't forget Zamussels....I'd love to write some stuff, but I wouldn't want to taint the possibilities.
BTW on Sizemore, he collapsed the escape routes before collapsing the city. That entire sequence could have taken 15 minutes, as far as we know. There's no reason to believe he's a Dirt God.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
I was under the impression that Sizemore was cooking off pre-made spell defense's that allowed for collapses. Much like Wanda did to all those fliers. Now I wonder how many survivors are left in the ruble.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
my take is good riddance, but a shame for Bogroll and such a sudden end. i'll be even more ticked if it's "lol, we know foolamancy too" and Ansom's actually feeling better than when Bogroll hit him. tired of Parson's repeated failures
don't necessarily take Ansom as the main villain in the long run. there's several arkentools to find, and Stan may start up a crusade of sorts for them.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
raekuul
I guess now is when we enter "Erfworld: The Aftermath of Gobwin Knob?"
You know, I think a klog would be in order soon.
Ohhh, it's not over yet.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slayerx
He wasn't alone, he had the archons with him... as for why they did not assist, it is possible that Ansom fell below the zone crossing line, and thus fell where the archons could not follow to catch him or attack... Had Parson tried to use crossbowmen on Ansom, the Achons would have toasted them... not to mention with the foolamancer gone, Ansom would not know they could use foolamancy... he looked at the situtation and saw it as Parson put himself in as much danger as he himself, if not more so; espeically since Parson would never pull off a one-man attack and Bogroll's victory is thanks to the fact that it was a suicde attack which Ansom would not expect Parson himself to use
Given that Parson had tried Thinkomancy tricks when the Archons were doing their DDR thing, I'm not sure it is reasonable for Ansom to pay no mind to the possibility of magical chicanery. But that's not really the central issue: even though Ansom got a Twoll when he expected Parson, he still voluntarily put himself within arms reach of an enemy whom he considered to be of the basest character. Why would he do that? I understand that he is prideful, but he could have accepted Parson's surrender at a time and place of his own choosing. I mean, how exactly would Parson have refused if Ansom told Charlie to have Parson meet him in the courtyard?
As for the Archons, they were next to him in appearance only. In order for Bogroll to have attacked him, Ansom must have been in the Tower sub-zone, and we know the Archons cannot leave the Airspace zone. If anything had gone wrong, there's nothing the Archons could have done about it from a combat angle (assuming Charlie hadn't been hanging Ansom out to dry). If Parson/Bogroll himself could fly into the airspace zone, then Archons could have lent him support, but that is not what happened.
Really, this whole thing only works because Ansom falls for the most painfully obvious trap I can imagine, the sort of moronic trick I'd expect the Legion of Doom to pull on the Superfriends. If Ansom is really that guileless, how can I take Parson seriously as a skilled warlord? He barely managed to beat someone who thinks he owns the Brooklyn Bridge. That's not something to brag about on your resume.
Quote:
because the trick would have been less likely to work... Ansom might have been skeptical if Parson surrendered when he still had the majority of his forces intact. Parson used that trick at the time when he was really against the wall, when Ansom thought he was against the walls... the way Ansom saw it parson had played his final hand and was totally out of options...
Furtharmore, the trick goes well with the timing of collapsing the city... Just loosing their leader would spoil their moral a bit, but the coalition would still fight on... but destorying the city right after that and causing them massive casualties and damage, along with having numerous leadership units croaked, would make them feel like they were in a hopeless position
Pfui. What changed between Ansom trumping one of Parson's plans and Ansom trumping another of Parson's plans? Other than author fiat, why must forcing Parson into the dungeons (where he appeared to be safe from the DDR and could still fight on) signal the end of the war? It seems to me that if Ansom was gullible enough to walk into an obvious trap after he had secured a beachhead, he would have walked into the trap once he survived Wanda's attack and had breached Gobwin Knob's walls. The only thing that changed between those two situations is that the author revoked his Hero Death Battle Exemption card, but presumably the characters didn't actually know that.
And I disagree that this coincides well with the collapse of the city: it has nothing to do with that. Had Parson killed Ansom after the outer walls fell, he might not have needed to collapse the city at all. If the RCC ended its turn, Parson could try any other plans he had, knowing he could still collapse the city at any moment should the need arise. If the RCC pushed on, they would not have had Ansom there to DDR them to victory. It sure seems to me as though killing Ansom earlier had nothing but upside.
Quote:
in fact, had Ansom croaked before the attack on the courtyard, the coalition might have decided to wait 1 turn before attacking the courtyard and thus have charlies aid in the courtyard fight... remember, parson knew ANSOM would attack the courtyard without waiting because of his pride; he could not be sure that the other members of the coalition shared his pride... with the loss of their leader, the coalition might have been more willing to wait until charlie could join them, which would have screwed Parson completely... parson NEEDED them to attack right away
Actually, this is another problem. Parson makes a big show of how they'd be doomed if Ansom didn't attack on this turn. But how on earth am I supposed to believe that when we now see him collapsing the city and (presumably) devastating the RCC forces in it? If Ansom had camped inside the outer walls HE might have survived (if he stayed on his carpet), but his army wouldn't. And given how easy it was to lure him into a trap, I have an even harder time believing his presence alone would be the difference between the Archons failing to capture the rubble and the Archons succeeding on their next turn.
So what difference did attacking this turn make? AFAICT, it didn't matter in the slightest. It was just a contrived line to add some tension by making it look as though Ansom's tactics made a difference.
Quote:
Wanda took ZERO damage from the archons... the damage she took was 100% falling damage and it was enough to bring her to the near brink of death... Ansom on the other hand not only took the falling damage but also has additional damaged from the crushing weight of a twoll landing on top of him, followed by possible hits bogroll might have gotten in before croaking
Why would Wanda not have taken any damage? The Archons fired on her, and it was already established that they were strong enough to capture all of GK by themselves. If all of them opened up on a mere fraction of GK's forces (as they did), I would expect them to do some serious damage. Indeed, I find it rather hard to believe that Wanda survived in the first place.
The idea that she survived without a scratch while her mount was incinerated seems too unlikely to consider without some evidence to back it up. Wanda does seem to have some sort of shield around her in Panel 9 of page 121, but the shield is gone by the time she's falling in Panel 10. I think she took some damage there.
Meanwhile, we have Bogroll attacking Ansom by himself. Bogroll is clearly less powerful than Ansom, since killing Ansom leveled him twice. I find it hard to believe that Bogroll's attacks hit harder than all those Archons. So we have to assume that either the fall was much longer than Wanda's, that Bogroll landed on him and squished him, or both.
But either way, I find it very unconvincing. We know nothing of how falling damage works in Erfworld, but we've already seen people survive extremely long falls: if this fall is supposed to be dramatically worse because of its height, I just wind up wondering why Ansom flew up that high in the first place, much less to treat with an enemy on his own. If Bogroll managed to crush him to death in the fall, I think we should at least have seen some of the struggle to call attention to that fact. It makes Bogroll's sacrifice that much more meaningful, and makes Ansom's death look like less of a handwave.
I understand that there's no accounting for tastes, but I'm just disappointed by the way this has gone. As I feared, Parson's first victory over Ansom is also his last.
-H
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Woot!
Seriously, that's my response. I mean, it sucks that Bogroll died... I hope that somehow there'll be a way to bring him back. Maybe Charlie will need information from an insider?
I don't have any issues with "abrupt". I'm glad to know that he's well and truely dead, because (a) there's only so much of him that I can take (b) the next significant issue is Charlie, who may be unaligned now that the one he made a deal with is croaked.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
The collapse of the city was a shock but not entirely unexpected. Sizemore mentioned the defenses that would make it possible way back here. What got to me... was the expressions of the Uncroaked when watching Parson's face as he gave that order. They were terrified.
Parson just scared the boop out of a bunch of Uncroaked. That should say a little bit about how happy he isn't right now.
Also, I have the feeling that Parson may not be entirely sure that the dungeons themselves will survive the fall of the city. Which is a quite good reason for telling the casters to assemble right next to the portals to the Magic Kingdom. Back door indeed. And very, very ruthless.
Wonderful page. And even so I still get the feeling that it isn't quite over yet. We'll see.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hatu
Meanwhile, we have Bogroll attacking Ansom by himself. Bogroll is clearly less powerful than Ansom, since killing Ansom leveled him twice. I find it hard to believe that Bogroll's attacks hit harder than all those Archons. So we have to assume that either the fall was much longer than Wanda's, that Bogroll landed on him and squished him, or both.
Bogroll is a garrison unit, effectively a defensive structure from a mechanical standpoint. It's not so odd for those to be unusually strong even when their level is low or whatever. (Which they pay for, of course, by not being able to move.) Bogroll's sole purpose, basically, is to be able to beat up on dangerous things and take their hits at the same time.
Meanwhile, while Ansom was tough, we haven't seen any indication that he was amazingly strong in personal combat -- he was a leader and a warlord, not a heavy unit himself, so at least some of his bonuses from leveling up are going to go more into making his stack stronger rather than, say, being able to beat up Twolls singlehandedly. It was a match-up that favored Bogroll in some ways, even with his lower level.
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Re: Erfworld 145 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 132
"there are 4 known arkentools" we know of three (-dish, -hammer, -pliers)
the unseen fourth is out there as well as any that aren't currently known, this battle is showing us the major players in the titan's game and the board isn't fully set yet...
I agree when TB4GK ends, we're probably going to see erfworld: book 2 quest for the arkentools or something equally as inspiring for the title (unless parson goes home with a job well done)