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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
I think Part of the reason Dwarves have stayed so constant since Tolkien is that their preferred lifestyle, living underground in vast mines, has little in the way of a parellell with an human cultures. Yes Elves may live in trees, but "Living in Trees" is an easy step to "Living in Forests".
Plus, "Fantasy Dwarf" is almost as much a character as it is a race or culture. Built right into the archetype you have a Look (Beard, armor), a Profession (Miner/Blacksmith/Soldier), a home (Underground), and a Personality (Somber, focused, drunk). Put all that together, and you've got a Dwarf, take it away, and you've got a short human.
Discworld explored this with the idea of Dwarven Cultural Orthodoxy, and any dwarf that strayed away from the traditional dwarven stereotype being considered "Not really a dwarf".
Dragon Age is an interesting example of this. In the first game, your Dwarven companion was Oghren, the Dwarfiest Dwarf ever to Dwarf. He drank too much, Lived underground, had a beard, and fought with an axe and heavy armor. They dropped the obligatory scottish accent, but kept plenty of Gruffness.
In Dragon Age II you have Varrick, who is about as far from Oghren as you can get. Where Oghren was gruff and crude, Varrick is a silver-tonged storyteller. He wears leather armor, wields a crossbow, lives in a port city, isn't particularly focused on mining, Smithing, or Killing Things. Varrick is totally clean-shaven, eschewing the idea that all dwarves have beards.
But the thing is, is Varrick really a dwarf? We know he's a dwarf because he is short and says he's a dwarf. But since our cultural perception of the "Fantasy Dwarf" basically consists of one character: A Somber, Alchoholic, Bearded Miner/Blacksmith/Axe-wielding warrior, can we really deviate from that before making Dwarves just another flavor of Human.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
DA dwarves are a different species, so yes, yes you can. That said, there isn't much about DA that is very original. Well put together sure, but original not so much.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
The dwarves of the Hollow World Basic D&D setting break the mold pretty badly, been surface dwelling (for a given value of surface) sheep herders in lederhosen.
Whether it's a good portrayal or not I leave as a question for the reader.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
My favorite almost-dwarfs that aren't dwarves in some major way:
M. Weiss & T. Hickmann had an exercise on "coming up with alt interpretation of dwarves" thing going on in the Death Gate series. Out of four possible worlds, only the magma world sounds like regular dwarves (and they're extinct). In Floating islands world, they're more like gnomes than dwarves (which isn't much of a change, admittedly), but in the water world, they are the voice of reason, and as such while still feeling dwarfish, they are also distinctly different.
On the other side of the spectrum, there is the Belgariad series. Yes, technically there aren't any dwarves, but there is a race of people living inside a mountain that are shorter than everyone else and massively strong (when they work at it). Their most gifted people can walk through solid rock (but not other substances like, say, sand) and detect caves at a distance. They are also deeply religious. YMMV, but I'd say the are the most dwarfishly undwarfish non-dwarves I've ever read about.
Other than that, I have to say that DA dwarves did feel un-dwarf-like in their lip-service to honor being just that, lip-service. The rigid caste system and utter heartlessness made for a very different kind of dwarf. There is something about their backstabbing culture that felt very alien to me. But, again, YMMV.
Grey Wolf
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
Edit: Wikipedia says that the Legolas-Gimli relationship was "Tolkien's reply toward "Gentile anti-Semitism and Jewish exclusiveness".". Basically, a reply to the alienation of the two groups. I think that that is INCREDIBLY telling as to Tolkien's own views: why must we be divided into two groups? Why cannot we just be "people"? Why must we be divided into "Jew" and "Gentile"?
I think that was the whole point he was trying to make.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
BRC
Discworld explored this with the idea of Dwarven Cultural Orthodoxy, and any dwarf that strayed away from the traditional dwarven stereotype being considered "Not really a dwarf".
then again, you don't need to be born a dwarf to be a dwarf, apparently
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
dehro
Then again, you don't need to be born a dwarf to be a dwarf, apparently.
The first Discowrld novel I read was Night Watch and while it is still a favourite, Captain Carrot was very confusing at the time as they kept referring to him as a dwarf yet also referred to his great height, even compared to human characters.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
GenericGuy
My homebrew setting Dwarves are Chinese (is that different or racist?).:
Are they short, craftsman, likes to hit things with axe, or have beards?
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
Also, Dweomer. I mean, the game itself stresses that they weren't really dwarves in any sense and that it was entirely a mistranslation as I recal.
Which is to say, they were Dwarves In Name Only (But not even that, really.)
Stupid Dinos.
One of the two explanations is that Dwe (deep) was mistranslated as short, so they were the short folk. The other is that a race of giants were the first to encounter the Dwemer and named them Dwarves because they seemed so small in comparison.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
And, of course, going by real world etymology, Dwemer and Dwergr sounds very alike.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
Although not normally known for originality, Terry Brooks's Shannara series scores a few points here. Dwarves in that world are usually claustrophobic, meaning the whole "live underground and do lots of mining" that you usually have with typical fantasy dwarves goes right out the window. Unfortunately, dwarves rarely if ever play much an important role in the Shannara stories, because Brooks prefers to focus on his elves, which are much more stereotypical elf.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
How about Elderscrolls Orcs? They're dwarf expy (Smithy, heavy armor and rank-and-file soldiers). I still count them as "Dwarves)
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
R.A. Salvatore makes use of powries, or redcaps, in his Demonwars Saga. He treats them as dwarves, almost, but they're vastly different from his other depictions of dwarves. His powries are seafaring, savage, and strong, but wiry, not bulky. Redcaps are so named because they dye their caps with their victims' blood.
Michael Scott Rohan has a series, The Winter of the World, with dwarves that are more akin to duergar, only not generally evil. Actually, they're explicitly mentioned to be a bit Neanderthalean, which is an interesting spin to put on it.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Feytalist
R.A. Salvatore makes use of powries, or redcaps, in his Demonwars Saga. He treats them as dwarves, almost, but they're vastly different from his other depictions of dwarves. His powries are seafaring, savage, and strong, but wiry, not bulky. Redcaps are so named because they dye their caps with their victims' blood.
Well redcaps and powries are mythological creatures (actually same creature, just different names) in their own right, so I don't think they count as 'different' dwarves.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Weezer
Well redcaps and powries are mythological creatures (actually same creature, just different names) in their own right, so I don't think they count as 'different' dwarves.
I'm aware that they're the same thing. That's why I said "or redcaps". Otherwise I would have said "and redcaps".
I also mentioned he "treats them as dwarves, almost". My point was that he treats them as an actual race, with dwarfish tendencies and habits (without making them out to be stereotypical dwarves), rather than portraying them as discrete and "elusive" magical creatures, as fairies, brownies, and other such mythological creatures usually are. Which is relevant to this discussion, I think.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
He actually calls the "evil dwarves."
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
t209
How about Elderscrolls Orcs? They're dwarf expy (Smithy, heavy armor and rank-and-file soldiers). I still count them as "Dwarves)
TES Orcs are also Elves. :smallamused:
(Orsimer)
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Kinslayer
TES Orcs are also Elves. :smallamused:
(Orsimer)
They're elves but their traits (minus the beserker and outcast before Daggerfall) are similar to dwarves. They have axe, Lawful Society (follow the rule), and respected black smiths (Orcish armor considered the best).
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
t209
They're elves but their traits (minus the beserker and outcast before Daggerfall) are similar to dwarves. They have axe, Lawful Society (follow the rule), and respected black smiths (Orcish armor considered the best).
Of course! And the bears from the Golden Compass? Totally Dwarves. :smalltongue:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XdP6Lp2ceq...s400/iorek.jpg
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Psyren
I think part of the reason is that there are so many other "short races" for the other personality archetypes. Say, you want to change up your dwarves by making them outgoing and friendly? You start out doing that and before you know it, you've ended up with Gnomes. Or you want your Dwarves to be outdoorsy and woodsy instead of subterranean miners? You start out and then you end up with Halflings. So then you say "fine, let's make them rustic and parochial" - then you end up with Hobbits. Or you say "I'll make them even more dour, downright xenophobic and suspicious - you do that and finish up with Duergar. And so on.
This is the correct answer. The concept of "fantasy dwarf" itself has somehow got ingrained into popcultural subconsciousness as beard+axe+drunk+gruff+underground. Whenever people try to stray from it, the end result becomes "not really a dwarf". Conversely, if you happen to build a world where centaurs are the hard working, hard drinking, dour, suspicious miners and optionally berserk warriors with hidden hearts of gold, merely saying "Centaurs are the dwarves of this world" to anyone will instantly make them know all of that.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
Anthropomorphic Wombats combine traits of Hobbits and Dwarves in the excellent, but now ended, webcomic Digger.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Hazzardevil
In media there are various kinds of elves and orcs, each Author generally changes them for his/her own world, can anyone tell me why this doesn't seem to be the case for dwarves?
If it helps a little, in The Witcher dwarves are basically a mix of standard dwarves and Jews and Gnomes are Dwarven-Elven hybrids.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Grey_Wolf_c
I have to say that DA dwarves did feel un-dwarf-like in their lip-service to honor being just that, lip-service. The rigid caste system and utter heartlessness made for a very different kind of dwarf. There is something about their backstabbing culture that felt very alien to me. But, again, YMMV.
Yeah, my mileage varies here. I think the DAO Orzhammar dwarves are indeed one of the best "changed dwarves," in that they're not the typical Gimlis, but they're still very recognizeable as dwarves.
Their lip-service to honor is akin to Worf's culture shock when he saw the fabled traditions of his ppl that he had used as his own existential pillar since childhood, hardly ever taken seriously by Klingons IRL. "That's not what I read in books!!" Same deal with DAO dwarves. Same deal with major religious institutions of Earth. It is the natural progression of a rigid social structure.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Dallas-Dakota
I will really recommend the book The Dwarves by Markus Heitz.
While it does use a lot of basic stereotyping, the main protagonist is a Dwarf with a lot of subcultures and character growth(Not only for him!). It's a awesome book.
The actually interesting part of the Dwarves series by Heitz is how he sets up a very traditional fantasy world scenario in the first book and then book for book mercilessly deconstructs it.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
Half the dwarves in my world are Sea-faring...granted half of them are also standard mining and smithing underground dwarves, but I'm halfway different! :smalltongue:
They're also communists and subsist primarily on fungus, the gnomes do not approve of this.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
Because people can make fun of elves for being green and spindley, but the dwarf with a mug of ale, an axe, and plate mail just... sticks.
Maybe it's because many franchises use "elf" as another word for "fey creature that could be a pixie, fairy, eladrin, elf, tree-spirit, hippie, or elf".:smalltongue:
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
Ravens_cry
The dwarves of the Hollow World Basic D&D setting break the mold pretty badly, been surface dwelling (for a given value of surface) sheep herders in lederhosen.
Whether it's a good portrayal or not I leave as a question for the reader.
Well it gets a thumbs up from me, although I'd preffer they wouldn't wear the lederhosen.
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Originally Posted by
Traab
Id say ravenclaws are the tinker gnomes. The ones always inventing and researching everything they can without caring much about the consequences. The most standard type of elf is one that does know a lot, tons of wisdom and such, but I always pictured the stereotypical ravenclaw as the bookworm that learns for no other reason than to learn. No thought about applications of the knowledge, just assimilating every fact they can get their mitts on. Not very elvish really.
But yeah, slytherins are definitely drow. Both the best and the worst. After all, while most drow are evil bastard dedicated to attaining more power and control at whatever the cost, they also have numerous morons in their ranks who trade off family names to get what they want. Plenty of ambition, but no real cunning.
Brb writting a Draco Malfoy fic where he dual wields scimitars, which also act as wands !!! , and has a pet panther :smallbiggrin:
Yes Slitherin are Drow but I can make a case for Ravenclaws as elves, firstly there is a very strong trend to have a type of elves Eladrin Blood Elves who only care about magical knowledge separate from their more wise eartly brethren, secondly the Ravenclaws secondary attributes i.e outside of being nerds are if I remember my HP fanfic being aloof and being the girls you date before your True Love tm revels herself again very elfish and thridly when people try to rwrite Good! slitherin they generaly come up with a more anti heroish Ravenclaw which swaped out some of his academic smarts for more street smarts.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
People never seem to want to change the "core personality" of dwarves. They are always stubborn, wealthy, greedy, miners, smiths, and warriors.
Even in works of fiction where they appear to be different than normal, such as the Elder Scrolls with their Dwemer, these core traits are apparent. I guess it's just hard to picture dwarves as anything but those traits.
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
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Originally Posted by
hamishspence
Warhammer's Chaos Dwarfs have a strong element of this- right down to the beard shapes.
Don't forget Elderscrolls Dwemers (More like underground dwelling elves). THey have babylonian culture too. (Their beard remind me of carvings in Babylonian buildings.)
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Re: Why do the Dwarves never change?
I'm in the process of creating a campaign setting for E6. In it, the Dwarven thane was overthrown several decades earlier. The blacksmith guild united and took control of the production of the new Dwarves' Republic of Understone. Their new flag is charcoal grey with a red hammer and pickaxe crossed at the center. Most clerics are now exiled because the DRU doesn't recognize the bourgeoisie authority of the Gods.
Also, Ale has disappeared in favor of Mushroom Vodka.