Retiering the classes (PF): Sorcerer, Oracle, Shaman, Arcanist, Psychic

I'd like to point out that skill doesn't necessarily imply optimization. A skilled player can decide to deliberately avoid their gamebreaking options and play a tier 1 caster at a tier 3 power level, either for RP reasons or to make the game more fun for the rest of the players.

I'd still class Sorcerer as tier 2. A STRONG tier 2 on the cusp of T1, perhaps, but still T2. A Sorcerer can do ANYTHING but it can't do EVERYTHING unlike a T1 class like Wizard. The Bloodline abilities are largely irrelevant. You can dumpster dive Bloodlines for arguably useful abilities but even the best ones are usually the Arcana...which if a Wizard feels like they gotta have, cna take a 1 level dip in the class, have the same spell progression, and infinitely better flexibility. Being able to sprout wings and fly for a round/level at 13th is cute and all, but doesn't rally factor into the class' power.

Oracle is a much lower T2. Mysteries (and the Curses attached to them, for the most part) are better than Bloodlines by a wide margin (partly due to being able to avoid picking the garbage ones, unlike Sorcerer where each Bloodline has at least one piece of trash you HAVE to let take up space on your sheet), but it lacks the thing that makes Cleric T1: Access to every spell on its list and the flexibility to swap them out as needed. As an Oracle you're going to be very specialized and unlike a Cleric (who can prepare Restoration, for example, as needed) if you want to cast it you need to dedicate one of your few spells known to a spell you're gong to be casting a few times a campaign most likely.

Both can increase their flexibility somewhat with gold in the form of Scrolls and a Mnemonic Vestment but that just means the Wizard and Cleric respectively are still more flexible AND have 5k gp (plus the cost of scrolls) above in wealth.

Shaman is a strong tier 1. You basically get to cherry pick the best spells from the Cleric, Druid, AND Wizard spell lists on top of being a Prepared Wisdom caster. Most of the Spirits suck, you're stuck with a Familiar (I personally hate 'em), and you're slightly MADer than a Wizard or Cleric (since you actually NEED a bit of Charisma) but I don't think there's any argument that this isn't one of the strongest classes in the game.

Arcanist is in the same boat. Best single spell list in the game, has the best of both worlds as far as prepared and spontaneous casting are concerned, and can get an ability that makes the "prepared" part basically moot (Quick Study). It hard to argue anything but tier 1.

Psychic is the weird one. Psychic casting just breaks so many of the assumptions of the game that it makes it hard to judge. Many of the "foul up the caster" tactics like Grappling or even Paralysis don't actually work since every Psychic spells are purely mental actions. They even have baked into their rules that they can bypass specific material components and can basically use anything with the same GP value or less if they are "emotionally significant" objects which is a situational but very real (if small) boost to how Material components work.

On the other hand, they are also susceptible to some really weird ways of shutting down their spellcasting completely. Most notably, Fear. A simple Shaken condition (imposed by anyone who can make a DC "Lol what is this tiny number" Intimidate check) makes them absolutely incapable of casting spells without metamagic to remove Emotion components.

Their spell list is solid, if not spectacular, and has some pretty lulzy tricks along with it. It does have the easiest "extra life" spell in the game with Akashic Form and the ability to do some crazy stuff with Major Mind Swap. If you want, for example, to permanently be a dragon you can incapacitate it, Mind Swap with it (preferably after stabbing yourself repeatedly, Ginyu style) and then kill or otherwise restrain your original body. Bam, you're a dragon for as long as you want...and without most of the weird headache-y bull**** that comes with stuff like Polymorph Any Object and how that interacts with Type or body specific abilities. If you ever want to be something else, swap with another race or something.

On the downside they are spontaneous casters and due to them being a fairly recent class lack the huge amount of splat support that the other full casters have received to expand their spell lists.

All in all Psychic is probably a solid T2, with potential to go up to T1 with future support for the class increasing its list's flexibility.

I'm pretty sure Psychics get some spells with no emotion component.

(E) Suggestion, for example, does not.

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Originally Posted by Bucky

I'm pretty sure Psychics get some spells with no emotion component.

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Quite a few, actually. Anticipate Thoughts (Meh.), Apport Object/Animal (not much combat use), Bilocation (a spell that seems to go out of its way to specify it can't be used for anything useful), Cognitive Block (really bad), Decrepit Disguise (no combat value), Deja Vu (pretty good for a 1st level spell), Hypercognition (combat useful if you REALLY need to know an enemy's weaknesses), Mind Fortress (the counter to the problem, in a way), Mind Shield (basically 5th ed Shield that scales poorly), Mental Block (actually really good), Mindlink (little combat use), Mindwipe (decent, basically "weird Enervate"), Node of Blasting (easier to use Explosive Runes), Placebo Effect (pretty good actually), Psychic Image (potentially great encounter buster...but the lack of Emotion component doesn't factor in since it's basically a buff spell), Psychic Surgery (useful out of combat), Synapse Overload (psychic Boneshatter, but better), Synaptic Pulse (pretty good), Telepathy (cast before combat, if it factors in at all), Thought Echo (useless in combat), Thought Shield (okay), and finally Tower of Iron Will (niche).

The main problem 3/4 of these are out of combat spells (rarely where you'll have an issue with Emotion components), and only about 1/2 the remainder, if that, are good enough to say "Wow, I want to spend a spell known on that!".

So yeah, I exaggerated a bit, but not by too much I think.

Eh, they only need a couple of spells (say, Intellect Fortress and Greater Synaptic Pulse) to not be useless, even if they're performing like a mere tier 4 for the duration.

@Gnaeus: as I mentioned in the barb etc thread, it might be a good idea to clearly state in the OP that JaronK's original Tier System has been tweaked and that people should read up on the new stuff before voting (provided you intended us to use the same system as in eggynack's 3.5 threads of course). That is, I believe it may impact the discussion and the voting depending on whether people are aware of the changes being introduced by this part of the 3.5 retiering voting instructions :

"A big issue with the original tier system is that, if anything, it was too specific, generating inflexible definitions for allowance into a tier which did not cover the broad spectrum of ways a class can operate. When an increase in versatility would seem to represent a decrease in tier, because tier two is supposed to be low versatility, it's obvious that we've become mired in something that'd be pointless to anyone trying to glean information from the tier system. Thus, I will be uncharacteristically word light here. The original tier system's tier descriptions are still good guidelines here, but they shouldn't be assumed to be the end all and be all for how classes get ranked."

At least in theory, what eggynack says in this post basically means that for example a hypothetical class that is extremely versatile and strong in basically all situations might be T2 despite not reaching game-breaking power within any one specific area. Likewise, I think the following (from the same post) is important to keep in mind:

"And problem solving capacity is what's being measured here. Considering the massive range of challenges a character is liable to be presented with across the levels, how much and how often does that character's class contribute to the defeat of those challenges? This value should be considered as a rough averaging across all levels, the center of the level range somewhat more than really low and really high level characters, and across all optimization levels (considering DM restrictiveness as a plausible downward acting factor on how optimized a character is), prioritizing moderate optimization somewhat more than low or high."

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Originally Posted by Gnaeus

My Votes:
Sorcerer T1. I think the edition changes are enough to break the tier boundary. Specifically, crafting feats are now available, a lot more spells known per level if you include favored class, bonus feats and actual class features all help the sorcerer in the comparisons. Also, Paragon Surge is there if needed.

Oracle T1. (Although bottom). Exactly the same analysis as sorcerer. If you took the favored soul, made it SAD, almost doubled its spells known and let it convert to cures, added 6 powerful scaling spell likes and paragon surge, you get the oracle.

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I really think these two, or at least the sorcerer, should be split into two entries depending on the human FCB and potentially some other choices (Lunar/Lore oracle?) which significantly increases power. Personally, I think for example a human sorcerer with Paragon Surge and a strong bloodline (like arcane) is T1, while say an elf sorcerer without Paragon Surge and with a weak bloodline is probably T2. And while you may try to nail down the theoretical average of the class, it wouldn't illustrate how much the real power of the sorcerer actually differs depending on one or two very specific choices. I'd like to wait on voting before split entries have been properly discussed as an alternative.

As for the two classes I'm personally more certain of:

Shaman: T1. Basically a treehugger-witch-ish prepared caster more versatile than either of its parent classes thanks to especially Wandering Spirit and changeable hexes.

Arcanist: T1. Do I really need to say why?

And finally, Psychic: ? Don't have any experience and IMO far from enough knowledge to vote.

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Originally Posted by Coretron03

Fisrt, since I missed this post, how are you summoning 3 monsters off the summon monster V list? At level 10? At level 5 I'd say the summoner can do what your sorcerer can do but better. If a summoner took the master summoner archtype they would have 2 more feats then you and better spell casting as they would have only 2 less level 1 spells known if you include summon monster spell like ability which lasts 10 times longer with many more uses per day and summon monster 3 access. Instead of invisbility they could take haste for something much more powerful. They lose a bit of power the higher level you get but level 10 they are still powerful. You could probably make a case for them that they hit tier 1 if sorcerers do.

Edit: And they can use alter self better then sorcerers because they are better in melee with a d8 hitdie and 3/4 bab.

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How am I not? Its a 5th level spell, which I get at level 10. I get 4 castings/day if I have a 20 cha. Normal summoners can't do that. Master summoners can get the 3 castings off, but can't do the other bits, as I said, like D Dooring to the scried target while shapeshifted and greater invisible and then D Dooring back out.

I see no conflict with an argument that Summoner is stronger at level 5. Summoner is stronger than a lot of T1 classes at level 5. Chained summoner especially. Level 1 summoner gets an eidolon, 2 spells per day, and about 9 summon monsters. Thats very probably the strongest caster in the game at that level. His weakness is in spells known/spells per day. At 10th level, he gets 5,5,4,2. Half Elf Sorc gets 8/7/6/4/1. If you adjust for summon monster, summoner gets 6/6/5/3/1. (although either one gets some advantages vs. the other. If a sorcerer wants to summon something to walk down a hall to pull a lever, or cast a low level spell effect he doesn't need to use a top level slot.) Sorc has a wider spell list, and stuff like paragon surge. At 15th level, Sorcerer gets 8/8/7/7/7/6/3 and something like 47 spells/day. Summoner gets 6/6/6/5/4/1/1/1 and something like 34 spells/day, assuming you count their SM as a spell of each level known. Chained summoner is brutally strong, which is why they rewrote the spell list. But its not sorcerer in versatility through most of the level range.

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Originally Posted by upho

Personally, I think for example a human sorcerer with Paragon Surge and a strong bloodline (like arcane) is T1

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Has it been ruled that a race other than Half-Elf can cast a spell that states "personal (half-elf only)"?

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Originally Posted by Barstro

Has it been ruled that a race other than Half-Elf can cast a spell that states "personal (half-elf only)"?

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There is a feat which allows three other races to access that spell. But in general, with such a limited access according to RAW, I don't think it should have influence in general on the tier.

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Originally Posted by Gnaeus

It does tho. It's a Polymorph spell and the Polymorph spell rules say you get water breathing if you get a swim speed. It's cited exactly earlier in the thread.

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Point, but that's still self-only. It's a great spell for both of them to take, but something more situational that could help a party member would be easier for the T1 class to branch out for, particularly at low levels - things like Air Bubble or Touch of the Sea would largely be a waste of spells known on a T2 class for instance, but right at the moment you find that you need them, the T1 at least has the option.

Don't get me wrong - In practice, a sorcerer may likely end up being more useful at more tables than a wizard. The sorcerer has a higher floor I think, because playing a wizard effectively requires prepping effectively (and knowing the open slots rule, and striking the right balance of open slots to prepped ones at each level, and specializing appropriately etc.) But tier is harder to nail down - it's a level of optimization somewhere above the floor but somewhere below Uber-Commoner. I just think the mechanics of the wizard lend themselves to theoretically more diverse solutions, particularly in cases where the sorcerer's primary schtick (spammable toolboxes) can be stymied. That's the primary onus behind my rating - that and the narrow nature of some of the PF Sorcerer's stronger repertoire-broadening tricks, like Paragon Surge being race-gated.

I think that Paragon Surge and Human FCB combined might put Sorcerer into the bottom of T1. But I expect very few characters to jump through the hoops to get both, so it doesn't significantly affect my vote.

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Originally Posted by Felyndiira

This is cherry-picking a single spell that the druid happens to get, however, and using to argue something as wide-open as flexibility.

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I chose that particular scenario because it was the most recent scenario from an actual campaign I was involved in where the party was severely inconvenienced for not having any T1 characters.

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Originally Posted by Bucky

I think that Paragon Surge and Human FCB combined might put Sorcerer into the bottom of T1. But I expect very few characters to jump through the hoops to get both, so it doesn't significantly affect my vote.

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It doesn't require any hoops. You just play a half-elf. Half-Elves can take human, half-elf, and elf Favored Class Bonuses.

But Paragon Surge is not the god-like spell it used to be, since the Feat you choose must be the same and have the same choices every time you cast it in a day.

It can be used to get around a specific problem, but unlike before you can't just have that and use all your 3rd level slots to have any spell available for any situation as needed.