Orcs don't have LA, and in any case many LA +1 races don't have increased CR.
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Orcs don't have LA, and in any case many LA +1 races don't have increased CR.
:thog: thog not orc. thog half-orc.
But I assumed CR 13 for Thog because, unlike Roy, he never died. If he was not level 13 at the time of the Battle of Azure City, he had all the time the OOTS did to mill around the world, gaining XP.
Yes, I do, to a point. As I pointed out in my last paragraph, the amount of XP I have given Roy is based on the fights we are shown he won. It's the absolute minimum that can be quantified. Based on the rules for what grants XP, Roy almost certainly gained more XP than I've assigned him, though probably not the additional XP required to level to 14.Quote:
Originally Posted by sgtpimenta
I don't think you quite grasp the fact that the amount of XP needed to level, once a character reaches even the mid-levels, becomes quite large. To level from [the middle of level] 12 to 13, Roy would have needed 6000 XP. To level from 13 to 14, he would need to gain 13000 XP from somewhere. And given that his fights barely gave him 6000 XP if one is generous about Thog's level, I don't see how you can rationalize getting 13000 XP from story awards alone.
Nobody has bothered, because until Roy was brought back to life it was a useless exercise. We did not and still do not know the Order's starting XP total, though apparently it was somewhere between 28000 and 36000. Roy's Resurrection, however, fixed his XP total at a knowable number, and the XP that various challenges at various CRs are meant to give a level 12 character are laid out in black and white (well, black and sickly yellow) in the DMG.Quote:
And there is the fact that, in the past, we have never been able to count the exact amount of XP gained in the comics... Am I wrong?
As for assigning CRs, well, I've laid out my arguments and shown my work. Giant Stag Beetles don't advance beyond CR 6. Purple Worms need no advancement to pose a decent if under-par threat to a party of the OOTS' level. Traps don't advance beyond CR9. Thog should be Roy's level + 1, which in this case means level 13.
We are presented with three sound effects *clunk!*, *clunk!*, *clunk!*, and then a fourth, different sound effect *CRACK!!*. Roy's sword is in the same position for the *CRACK!!* as it is for the last two *clunk!*s, and there is no blue line indicating he swung again. The *CRACK!!* is probably not caused by a fourth attack, but is rather the sound effect to show Thog's axe breaking.
Roy was higher level than the rest of the Order when he died (c.f. Eugene calling him "the highest level Good character on the field"), but for him to be that much higher level that he comes out higher level even after losing a level from resurrection and missing out on several months' XP gain is stretching it, IMHO.
Fighter 12 / Future Psychic 3
Eugene had Epic level scrying and had been following the order basically since its inception. He is an expert on their powers and abilities at the time he makes this statement, and Roy does not disagree.
I consider the information exceedingly reliable.
The only Blemish against it would be the eventual appearance of Soon, but even Epic Level scrying can't tell you that Soon is going to show up, he wasn't there before the battle and so Eugene wouldn't have known about him.
technically Soon was in the throne not on the field so Eugene just could have meant "the highest level good character that was in a position to be able to fight the goblins" which soon wasnt unless goblins entered the throne room, Xykon could have massacred the entire town and until he stepped in the throne room Soon couldnt fight back
I think Roy actually gained XP while dead. Even if he didn't remember all of it, he learned a lot, gained a new perspective on his struggle, trained with his grandfather, fought those plane-shifting evil adventurers, learned a lot about the nature of the afterlife.
He doesn't hold these memories in conscious memory, but I still think he gained XP and perspective from them.
Elan and Durkon are, and Haley might be. That said, Elan's biggest contribution to the battle was tearing the morale of the Azure City soldiers to shreds, so Eugene might have left him out.
Regardless, if a small number of good characters are all level 13, and all the other good characters are lower-level than 13, then each level 13 good character is also the "highest-level good character" in the bunch. That they are not uniquely so is not relevant to their position at the head of the pack.
Naaah... not only is this blatently against the rules, but it also makes Horace's statement about Roy having to take a feat once he was alive (and levelled up) completely nonsensical. If Roy -could- gain XP / levels in heaven, why wouldn't he have bought the feat there instead of waiting to be alive?
The clear assumption is that Roy can learn in heaven, but can only gain experience on earth. Not to mention, if he doesn't retain the memory, how can it be experience?
He can't level in heaven, but I think he can still gain XP.
And he did retain the essence of the memories, if not the memories themselves. Coming back with a clearer understanding of some things, an idea for a feat, etc.
As far as I know, counting XPs is not a reliable way to track levels in the comic. Is not even required to know some one level. The only way we can tell Belkar is 16+ is his 7 attacks/panel in #768. But I don't think any one could say that just by tracking XP the little shoeless god of war earned in comic. I don't think counting XP is an accurate - or even relevant - way to determine any character level. More about XP later.
Yeah, but that kinda of argument works both ways: assuming that "levels doesn't matters" don't tell us if he's 15- ou 16+. And I think they matter, even for fighters. You said yourself: with 15-, he would have one less attack per round. It's not too shabby. Plus, lots of HP and skill points to buy cross class skill ranks are known to have made the difference in the past. Even Xykon has asserted that power can take the form of skill bonus - and he's a sorcerer.
Sure, we don't know how many skill points were required to wreak the arena - or how much damage did Roy took before getting Thog tired. But we know that they matter. All I'm saying is: the more, the merrier.
The way it usually goes, we see the action and its immediate consequence in the same panel. So when the generic goblin tries to knock Durkon down, the goblin is shown immediately being thrown back. When some one casts a spells, its casting is shown in the same panel that shows its results(flesh to stone, invisibility, heal, etc). Even when Thog uses Roy as a sledge hammer, we can see him bashing Roy against the wall with a vicious CRACK! sound at the same panel that shows the already broken wall.
So, no. I can't see Thog's broken axe as a delayed consequence of Roy's attack shown in the previous panel. Attacks and its immediate results (damage, dodges, parrying, broken things) are shown simultaneously.
The fact that Roy does not remember anything beyond the Big Golden Gate does not means that he has not learned a new cool sword move.
Anyway,I may be wrong, but I don't think that XP works the way you think in OotS-verse. It is possible to level up just by checking one's XP total - long after than the XP has being actually awarded. You don't need to remember it to level up.
Let's not forget that Roy had plenty of time to defeat all those monsters that are just strong enough to really challenge you, and probably earned an unknown amount of XP awarded for completing history-arc quests.
Yet when Roy uses Thog to weaken the structural supports the collapse doesn't happen for five panels.
Rich said it himself, OOTS moves at the speed of plot, if something will look better being in a separate panel, it will be shown in a different panel. While it is rarely the case that action is more comprehendable spread out, it is still an option, and one Rich has used in the past.
Umm... he HASN'T learned it. It don't mean a thing if you ain't paid for that swing. Thats the whole -point-, all the knowledge Roy gained in heaven doesn't and can't go into his leveling process.Quote:
The fact that Roy does not remember anything beyond the Big Golden Gate does not means that he has not learned a new cool sword move.
Don't confuse metahumor with plot :PQuote:
Anyway,I may be wrong, but I don't think that XP works the way you think in OotS-verse. It is possible to level up just by checking one's XP total - long after than the XP has being actually awarded. You don't need to remember it to level up.
There is no evidence Roy did any of that. If leveling in the afterlife WERE possible, why were the IFCC's three most powerful souls all people who went epic while they were still alive? Shouldn't it just be whoever had been dead the longest?Quote:
Let's not forget that Roy had plenty of time to defeat all those monsters that are just strong enough to really challenge you,
Seven attacks in one panel does NOT equal seven attacks in one round. Roy was basically trying to get Belkar to stop attacking him, but it wasn't until he got really annoyed that he just clobbered him to stop the attacks--there's no indication this took only a single round. I'd argue it must definitely have taken longer, because Roy is generally quite level-headed and isn't going to go RAAAAGE in six seconds!
I actually agree with sgtpimenta that breaking Thog's axe and tusk involved a separate attack. The ambiguous "attack" is the first one, not the last one.
However, to answer his other points:
-The fact that levels mean nothing in the arena fights works against your position, because all your evidence that Roy is high level comes from the arena fights. In the fight against Thog, it's because Thog's level is tied to Roy's, so it doesn't matter what level Roy is, the fight against Thog would be equally difficult at any level. In the fight against Belkar, it's because Roy's ability to deal damage in one attack is not at all closely tied to his levels once he has a core feat build; the poor scaling of feats is one of the MAIN reasons Fighter is considered a weak class.
-Most indications are that Roy does not gain XP in the afterlife, and the only point that COULD hint otherwise is an ambiguous comment about having a cool idea for a sword move that he has to try out later. That all but shows he doesn't actually have the feat as yet; it CERTAINLY isn't good evidence that he gained XP in the afterlife and picked up the feat immediately upon rezzing. As a final note, Roy didn't spend a single moment in any of the places pointed out by Roy's Archon, as far as we know.
For my part, I think 7 attacks is enough to get Roy's gander up whether they took place over one round or two. The unit of annoyance is closer to "one attack" than "one second of being attacked". Belkar being 16 is the only useful explanation of why there are exactly 7 attacks in that round--it would be rather awkward for pre-16, 5-attacks-per-round Belkar to reach that exact number. Also, considering that Haley and Belkar have been facing approximately the same challenges throughout the comic thanks to being together for DStP, and Haley is confirmed 15+ to have Improved Precise Shot as of the fight with Bozzok, Belkar being level 16 is entirely consistent with the existing evidence. The only real differentiating factor I can think of would be if one character got a number of permanent negative levels from a wight, as happened comically once to Belkar (and we don't even know if that one was permanent).
Also Eugene did want to make his son feel bad about losing this and as the factual leader of the Order, it does not really matter if he was higher than them, he'd still be the leader of the entire thing.
So no, I do not think it's reliable enough to consider this statement by Eugene to be some actual proof.
It appears to me that this is little more than "Well, Eugene could have been lying."
Which is true, but isn't sufficient to declare what he said was false. He is our in-comic expert, with the means to know the information he is claiming and we have no evidence which contradicts his statement. Thus, the default assumption must be that canon is correct in this instance.
Argh.
..."Canon is correct"...:smallsigh: Eugene's name is not Canon and the default most certainly need not be that Eugene is acting as Voice of God. To refute the assertion, "Eugene said it, that settles it," it is not necessary to declare what he said false. It is sufficient to note that the burden of proof is on the person making the positive assertion, that that positive assertion ("Eugene is acting as the Voice of God") lacks proof, and that the default assumption should be neutrality.Quote:
Thus, the default assumption must be that canon is correct in this instance.
So, if Xykon said "I love you, Redcloak", it'd be true because you claim that Xykon is the one who really should know if that truth or not and if he said it, it must be true?
You'd seriously claim that? Because right now, you claim right the same type of answer and consider Eugene being a source of truth about Roy's level.
I do not discredit Eugene's statement because "he could have been lying" but because he, as source himself, is highly unreliable.
Surely the passage of time flows differently in different panels in a comic, and OotS is no different. Some times, each panel shows long speeches or complete dialogues; other shows a single line (dramatic ones, most of the time). But when showing a combat, each panel often shows a single action or a single round - as well as its immediate result. That's the key word here.
I'm no expert in Architecture and Engeneering, but the demolition of the arena is not not immediate results of Roy's actions. And, even if it was, this scene is more a exception to the point I was trying to make than a good example. If I have to guess, the delayed demolition of the arena serves mainly to create tension, as a form of highlighting the consequences of the previously shown actions. In the other scene, however, Roy is attacking Thog with increasing anger - hence the last attack having both bigger consequence and sound effect.
How do we know that Thog's level is tied to Roy's? Roy pretty much says that's not the case, so I don't think we could use the personal rival rule.
The thing is: Roy is the most all-around competent character in the Order. I find it hard to believe that one low level Fighter could be more competent than other high level classes. And we have seem lots of sittuations in which this rule seems to apply. The arena fights are more important to the actual thread 'cause they are post-resurrection.
He was able to rescue the party all by himself, and solo Miko. He handled both bounty hunters (who have, themselves, defeated half the party) in the bar fight, and was selected as a better warrior than the half-dragon. Let's not forget that he jumped to face Xykon all by himself - being a non-cliche, not-stupid fighter, I figure that he had reasons to believe that he could actually succeed. He was later proven wrong, obviously, but we know him to be competent fighter and a brilliant tactician: implying that Roy tried to deal with Xykon without even the slightest chance of success would be contradictory with which we know about him.
That may be, but I was just pointing out how he could have access to XP. And don't forget about his completed quests and character growth mojo.
But I'm not really all that comfortable trying to justify his XP. We don't know how the whole post-death thing actually works in OotS -it seems to me that it is quite different than 3.5 Rules As Written, but then again, maybe it isn't. But, as people keeps insisting on the "show me some XP source" argument, I keep speculating about it. But knowing, for sure? Impossible. And, as I said before, not really my point.
I'm with FujinAkari in this one. Also, it looks like Roy acknowledge being higher level by saying "With great power comes great blame".
Next you'll be saying that greatsword's level isn't tied to greataxe's level.
What does "competent" have to do with level, in any terms that make the statement that Roy is the most competent character in the Order true? (In purely mechanical terms--that is, skills--Roy is most definitely way behind Haley and quite possibly behind Vaarsuvius and Belkar as well. In nonmechanical terms, Roy's competency has nothing at all to do with his level; he hasn't particularly changed in that regard since he was first level.)Quote:
The thing is: Roy is the most all-around competent character in the Order. I find it hard to believe that one low level Fighter could be more competent than other high level classes.
This is not the way debate works. Burden of proof requires the person making the assertion to provide evidence, such as a direct in-comic citation. That shifts the burden of proof, and makes it the responsibility of the person refuting the assertion to provide evidence. "Nuh uh!" is not sufficient evidence.
This is a proper refutation, questioning the veracity of the source. So, what evidence do you have that Eugene regularly outright misrepresents facts? He is cantancerous as rude, sure, but he isn't dishonest.
If I got beat up and someone said to me "Wow, look at that... all that Navy Seal training and you still get the floor wiped with you!" my response would be "... I've never even been in the navy... :smallmad:" Eugene's barb only makes sense if it IS true, and Roy's lack of retort further reinforces this. He protests that Hinjo was leading the battle, he does not protest the claim that he was the highestl levelled good PC.
Yes...
...no.Quote:
such as a direct in-comic citation.
As Winter asked, if Xykon said, "I love you, Redcloak," would you consider that evidence that Xykon loves Redcloak? If Belkar said Miko would Fall if she killed him--oh oops, some people unaccountably do consider that evidence that Miko would Fall if she killed Belkar.
"A direct in-comic citation" is evidence that Eugene said Roy was the highest-level Good character on the field. Eugene is not Rich. And you have to either chop knowledge in such a way that Eugene knows the exact levels of the rest of the Order but doesn't know Soon is there, or chop honesty in such a way that Eugene's desire to taunt Roy means he can handwave away Soon but not handwave away any other member of the Order, to avoid the assertion "Roy was the highest level Good character on the field" running full-tilt into Soon and getting rejected with as much gusto as the assertion "2+2=17."
Pardon?Quote:
So, what evidence do you have that Eugene regularly outright misrepresents facts? He is cantancerous as rude, sure, but he isn't dishonest.
In addition, do you really want me to quote the entire Shojo-Trial-Thing? Roy's speech to him how he used him? How he unfairly keeps scolding Roy?
If you forgot all that, I'd rather suggest you re-read the entire comic as there's probably much more important stuff you forgot.
Actually, those calculations are much easier.
Raise dead puts you at half a level worth of XP.
Two solo duels against an opponent of your level gives you enough XP to advance a level.
So defeating a rival, Thog, who is of his level, should be enough for Roy to get a level up.
Soon wasn't "on the field". The Guard ghosts are a last-resort Gate defense mechanism; they weren't part of the battlefield fighting for Azure City (which is what was Roy's fight to lose). They're tied to the throne/room and their ability to act is ultra-limited.
I would say Soon's presence doesn't invalidate Eugene's statement at all. And Roy accepts that statement... so, yes, likely true.