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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
I kept wondering where all the talk of created monsters was coming from. Forgot the pit fiend had that SLA.
This is not my field of expertise (I haven't lead many games at this power level), so correct me if I'm wrong. SRD says SLAs use a standard action unless the spell says otherwise. Create Undead takes an hour and still targets one corpse. Even though the SLA doesn't need the corpse for a material component, it still needs a corpse to target, right? Where is the pit fiend getting these bodies? And it still takes an hour (for EACH undead, targeting 1 corpse at a time) even if it is at-will, because the spell specifies casting time of 1 hour? Provokes AoO, so doing thus before combat is advisable, but giving the pit fiend advance time to create an indeterminent amount of undead before the fight isn't exactly neutral combat scenario.
Unless I've misunderstood the conversion to SLA, looks like the pit fiend must disengage and withdraw to safe distance to use create undead, which is fair given Greater Teleport.
Now, assuming I'm wrong and the pit fiend can create undead ex nihilo as a standard action, the spell says you may attempt to command undead while the monster is forming. This, combined with the instantaneous duration, would suggest to me that the created undead is now a separate monster, rather than a summoned monster (as a virtual extension of the summoner). They can't be dispelled, banished, nor will their existence simply expire with the spell like a summoned creature, and they are not automatically subordinate to their creator.
But I foresee a scenario of: pit fiend spends turn staying out of range, creates morgh, fighter one shots the CR 8, then uses cleave if applicable.
The Pit Fiend does have to have corpses. But the point is that the Pit Fiend is doing things beforehand. If you run into a Cleric, and he has cast Animate Dead in the past, you don't get an EL boost because he had cast a spell before. Likewise, Pit Fiends are allowed to create undead that are literally so easy you don't even get XP for killing them with corpses.
The point is that in some hypothetical campaign, the Pit Fiend will be doing something, have some objective, and if killing a bunch of gnomish villagers and turning them into Mummies is beneficial to his plans, then that's something he's been doing.
Hey, maybe you are even fighting him because you want to stop him from doing that?
The idea that enemies have to be locked in a stasis field and come into being only on the presence of the PCs is just not the way games the game CRs them, at least not in 3e/3.5. If you are in a campaign, and you spend a bunch of time just not doing anything, then the creatures continue with their plans, and if you slowly creep everywhere at 10ft speed silently skulldugging everywhere, then there are probably several hundred more mummies when you finally get there than if you had climbed on a horse and road there, or teleported there, or whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
Beheld mentioned that the CR rules were meant to apply to "monsters created by other magical means." Got a citation to that one, Beheld?
It's literally the exact rules that Cosi cited on page 2 or whatever, that I cited on 2, that I cited again recently, that we are talking about right now while Antho tries to argue that Pit Fiends summoning increases the EL of the encounter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMG 37, literally copied from earlier in the thread
Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
The claim was stunned, and I would generally advise that Beheld often makes false claims. I documented many of them with
the build, there are many more not included, and I eventually gave up on talking to him because of this.
It's funny that you would accuse me of "making false statements" when you are literally lying about your stated reason for refusing to speak to me. Since you yourself claimed it was because I was uncivil.
Of course, the reality is, that I've explained multiple times why your claims were based on either or both of outright lies and your failure to understand what I said, including but not limited to your deceptive omission of important parts of the quote in your quotes. Your continued restatement is nothing but lies at this point.
I will of course, since you are here lying about the reason, bring up that it's not actually because I was "uncivil" that you refused to respond to me. The post in question was relatively civil, certainly, it correctly accused you of making up numbers, but the real reason you refused to respond is because you were laboring under the completely evidenceless conclusion that your fighter could maintain his weapon that is the only possible way he has of doing damage to the Pit Fiend against a disarm.
That evil bad uncivil post was about 95% composed of a mathematical complete analysis showing that you have a .02271851% chance of maintaining your weapon when subjected to an AoO, and then a round of disarms.
You had absolutely no response, so you made up a pathetic lie that you were so offended by me saying that you were annoying that you would refuse to speak to me ever again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
I'm also skeptical about the answer to (3) being "no", since a summoned Ice Devil (for example) is a potent force only marginally weaker than a normal Ice Devil. An encounter against a summoned Ice Devil (only, no Pit Fiend involved) does not seem well described as "Encounter Level 0" and the Encounter Level rules support this judgement.
As has been explained to you multiple times in posts you conveniently declare don't count because I called you annoying once, and you take advantage of to repeat the same lies about the rules over and over knowing they are false:
If an Ice Devil is summoned, and then fights someone, that person is, by definition, fighting an encounter of EL equal to the CR of the thing that summoned the Ice Devil.
Just like if a creature Fireballs you from long range, and you take 10d6 damage and die, you don't say "well the EL of the fireball is zero because it's just a spell effect of a monster."
Summoned creatures are included in the CR of the monster that summons them. That means that if you fight a summoned creature, you are fighting an EL of the summing creatures CR. That is what included within means.
If for whatever reason, you fight only a summon, with no other effects, that is a choice of the creature to not attack you. If you survive the summon, but don't kill the summoner, then you faced an EL of the summoners CR, but you didn't necessarily win or lose and your DM gives you XP based on whether it's fair to say you beat the summoner by accomplishing your goal.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
- It only takes a Standard Action for the undead to be created because an SLA is a standard action.
- It's mostly assumed that the Pit Fiend already animated the undead prior to the match.
- It shouldn't be too hard for the Pit Fiend to find corpses (you can buy them on the black market after all).
Okay, but now we have some kind of practical limit to the undead minions: the pit fiend still has to buy them (or steal them, etc). This is more or less the same process by which the fighter obtains WBL, so the pit fiend is limited by npc wbl (I don't think it's fair game to let monsters spend their own treasure rewards to increase power, like happening to have a gem of trueseeing is one thing, but spending monetary reward to buy one isn't fair).
So we have a practical limit to the undead minions. How many corpses can a lvl 20 npc afford?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
I don't follow this.
Pg 37 of the dmg states quite clearly that the challenge of a summoned creature has already been counted into the summoning creature's CR. This means the printed CR for the Pit Fiend already assumes you are fighting all the creatures it can summon and create as well.
Adding the summoned/created monster's CR to calculate EL is counting their CR twice in evaluating the EL.
Thus, it doesn't matter that they WOULD affect EL if they were independent of the Pit Fiend, they don't affect it if the pit fiend spawned them, because that extra challenge is already counted in.
Arguably, a pit fiend denied access to summoned/created minions would be effectively reduced CR and be a lower EL than the printed Pit Fiend.
More to follow. I've run out of time for the moment.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
Okay, but now we have some kind of practical limit to the undead minions: the pit fiend still has to buy them (or steal them, etc). This is more or less the same process by which the fighter obtains WBL, so the pit fiend is limited by npc wbl (I don't think it's fair game to let monsters spend their own treasure rewards to increase power, like happening to have a gem of trueseeing is one thing, but spending monetary reward to buy one isn't fair).
So we have a practical limit to the undead minions. How many corpses can a lvl 20 npc afford?
Pit Fiends don't have NPC WBL, they have treasure and no NPC WBL.
The DMG explains that monsters use their treasure, if you decide the Pit Fiend can buy corpses, then you have decided it can use it's treasure to buy them.
Also, in your attempt to solve the "problem" of the Pit Fiend spending like 20k on corpses, you have given him 220k WBL to spend on corpses.
Now frankly, I just wouldn't have the Pit Fiend buy corpses. It's a Pit Fiend, if it wants corpses, it finds a village and murders everyone in it to get corpses. This is both going to involve having less than it can afford spending WBL or treasure, and instead gives you both a reason to fight the Pit Fiend, and also a reason to do so quickly instead of taking forever.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Beheld
Pit Fiends don't have NPC WBL, they have treasure and no NPC WBL.
The DMG explains that monsters use their treasure, if you decide the Pit Fiend can buy corpses, then you have decided it can use it's treasure to buy them.
Also, in your attempt to solve the "problem" of the Pit Fiend spending like 20k on corpses, you have given him 220k WBL to spend on corpses.
Now frankly, I just wouldn't have the Pit Fiend buy corpses. It's a Pit Fiend, if it wants corpses, it finds a village and murders everyone in it to get corpses. This is both going to involve having less than it can afford spending WBL or treasure, and instead gives you both a reason to fight the Pit Fiend, and also a reason to do so quickly instead of taking forever.
So be it, but let it be 220k worth of cadavers, not freebie "he looted a village for making undead minions." That limits the results to only how viable the fighter is against pit piends who have done exactly this preparation. Wizards should be compared to the same limitations.
I mean, clearly, no matter what kind of treasure the pit fiend has, it probably murdered and stole to obtain it. Giving it an extra village of corpses is basically giving it free items and gear.
Honestly, a graveyard for a large village, complete with corpses and their possessions buried with them, could easily be valued at 220k. If we want to interpret that as the pit fiend's allocated treasure, it would probably be fair.
But if the monster is supposed to use their treasure, why start hand waving their cadaver supply? Simplicity at the needless cost of accuracy to a more general solution.
Though honestly, I think RAI is that the fiend isn't supposed to start with undead, rather the danger is supposed to be having your fallen allies get up and attack you.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
So be it, but let it be 220k worth of cadavers, not freebie "he looted a village for making undead minions." That limits the results to only how viable the fighter is against pit piends who have done exactly this preparation. Wizards should be compared to the same limitations.
I mean, clearly, no matter what kind of treasure the pit fiend has, it probably murdered and stole to obtain it. Giving it an extra village of corpses is basically giving it free items and gear.
Honestly, a graveyard for a large village, complete with corpses and their possessions buried with them, could easily be valued at 220k. If we want to interpret that as the pit fiend's allocated treasure, it would probably be fair.
But if the monster is supposed to use their treasure, why start hand waving their cadaver supply? Simplicity at the needless cost of accuracy to a more general solution.
Though honestly, I think RAI is that the fiend isn't supposed to start with undead, rather the danger is supposed to be having your fallen allies get up and attack you.
Again, you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
I have no idea what the Black Market price for a 1HD commoner corpse is, but an untrained hireling costs 1sp a day, and you can take them out with a fireball in groups of 50. I bet their corpses don't cost more than 1gp a piece.
So rather than saying "Wait a minute, I think it's a little too much to have between 0 and 588 corpses, depending on how fast the PC(s) get there to stop him. Let's limit him to 220,000 corpses instead that he bought with money he doesn't have."
Why not just say "Hey, yeah, he's a CR 20 outsider that can kill level 1 commoners all day. Let's say that maybe it matters how quickly you respond to the threat and address it. And also let's give him way fewer corpses because running more than a hundred thousand mummies is both a lot of work, and not really adding much to the fight."
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Beheld
Again, you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
I think you are oversimplifying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beheld
I have no idea what the Black Market price for a 1HD commoner corpse is, but an untrained hireling costs 1sp a day, and you can take them out with a fireball in groups of 50. I bet their corpses don't cost more than 1gp a piece.
CBN first mentioned black market listings. I was assuming there is a splat somewhere with the details. BoVD perhaps?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beheld
So rather than saying "Wait a minute, I think it's a little too much to have between 0 and 588 corpses, depending on how fast the PC(s) get there to stop him. Let's limit him to 220,000 corpses instead that he bought with money he doesn't have."
Now you are strawmanning.
My point was, "I think it is too much to give him between 1 and 588 free corpses in addition to his 220k treasure without giving the fighter comparable resources to match.
I'm not advocating for 220k mummies. I'm saying if he has 220k mummies, he definitely doesn't have a Gem of Trueseeing in his treasure pile. He traded that gem for more mummies.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
I think you are oversimplifying.
CBN first mentioned black market listings. I was assuming there is a splat somewhere with the details. BoVD perhaps?
Now you are strawmanning.
My point was, "I think it is too much to give him between 1 and 588 free corpses in addition to his 220k treasure without giving the fighter comparable resources to match.
I'm not advocating for 220k mummies. I'm saying if he has 220k mummies, he definitely doesn't have a Gem of Trueseeing in his treasure pile. He traded that gem for more mummies.
......
Pit Fiends don't have 220kgp in treasure, because they are not NPCs and do not get NPC WBL.
They have a random amount of gold and items based on standard treasure generation. This amount averages 80kgp in total resources.
The number of mummies a Pit Fiend has should always, in all circumstance, be less than the number of corpses he can (probably) afford with treasure. So the only thing you do by making it capped by treasure, rather than in game concerns, is give him more mummies, and give the PC that defeats him less money.
Also, Pit Fiends that go out an kill a village and turn them into mummies are not in fact gaining resources in advance of treasure more than the fighter. Going to a village with Greater TP, and killing villagers with your fireball is not being given resources any more than casting Persistent Image, or Fireballing someone from 900ft away is giving you an HP advantage.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Pleh
CBN first mentioned black market listings. I was assuming there is a splat somewhere with the details. BoVD perhaps?
I looked through the BoVD, and all I could find was body parts, not an intact corpse. Worth noting that the only body part that wasn't priced in Cp, was a human heart (which costs 1 Sp).
Maybe the info I'm looking for is in Libris Mortis?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
- It only takes a Standard Action for the undead to be created because an SLA is a standard action.
- It's mostly assumed that the Pit Fiend already animated the undead prior to the match.
- It shouldn't be too hard for the Pit Fiend to find corpses (you can buy them on the black market after all).
- The Pit Fiend has Diplomacy to make the intelligent undead he creates helpful to him.
In the "Tactics Round-by-Round" section of the SRD, it's acutally only assumed that the Pit Fiend has already activated Unholy Aura, Fear Aura, and Summon Demon prior to combat. Also, It takes 1 hour to use the spell like ability create undead as a spell like ability works just like the spell of that name and a spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. As such, create undead has a 1 hour casting time so it's not going to be casting that in combat.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
AnimeTheCat
In the "Tactics Round-by-Round" section of the SRD, it's acutally only assumed that the Pit Fiend has already activated Unholy Aura, Fear Aura, and Summon Demon prior to combat. Also, It takes 1 hour to use the spell like ability create undead as a spell like ability works just like the spell of that name and a spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. As such, create undead has a 1 hour casting time so it's not going to be casting that in combat.
- It was assumed that the Pit Fiend used Create Undead prior to the match.
- You're incorrect about SLAs activation times:
Quote:
Originally Posted by "Monster Manual Pg. 315
Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise,
Therefore, Create Undead takes a Standard Action to use.
Edit: The SRD contradicts this, but the Monster Manual takes precedence here.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnimeTheCat
In the "Tactics Round-by-Round" section of the SRD, it's acutally only assumed that the Pit Fiend has already activated Unholy Aura, Fear Aura, and Summon Demon prior to combat. Also, It takes 1 hour to use the spell like ability create undead as a spell like ability works just like the spell of that name and a spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. As such, create undead has a 1 hour casting time so it's not going to be casting that in combat.
As we previously discussed, the MM states that SLAs take a standard action. The PHB says (as the spell). By RAW, it would take a standard action for a Monster and an hour for an Archmage.
That said, the entire point of my argument all along has continued to be based on the idea that monsters are existing creatures in the world acting based on their abilities to achieve objectives, so you don't say "well the Roper has to start in the middle of the hallway, not have been able to use previous rounds to hide in an alcove to ambush people!" and you don't say "Well sure, it did take the PC 3 days to creep the miles from the central town to this village 10ft at a time while stealthing, but that doesn't mean the Pit Fiend got to spend those rounds using Persist Image and turning dead villagers into Mummies!"
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beheld
and you don't say "Well sure, it did take the PC 3 days to creep the miles from the central town to this village 10ft at a time while stealthing, but that doesn't mean the Pit Fiend got to spend those rounds using Persist Image and turning dead villagers into Mummies!"
This last one is what gets me; the idea of creeping along 10' per round just so you might be able to ambush someone seems a little much to me.
Edit: Also:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Player's Handbook Pg. 142
The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Edit: Also:
Maybe it's the DMG that says as the spell?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beheld
Maybe it's the DMG that says as the spell?
I checked the DMG and it didn't say what the casting time was. I do know the SRD claims that an SLA has the same casting time as the spell it mimics. Link to the relevant text.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Beheld
Maybe it's the DMG that says as the spell?
This is all the DMG says about SLAs in the glossary;
"Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field)."
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
This is all the DMG says about SLAs in the glossary;
"Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are spells and magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field)."
That's about what I remembered, thanks for the quote.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Edit: Also:
If it hasn't been noted yet, it may be RAI meant for SLA to operate by SRD description.
It seems clear to me that SLAs probably were not intended to allow an hour casting spell to be mimicked in 6 seconds (without metamagic). But whatever RAI, I agree on the ruling of RAW.
Also, I care not one wit the exact value of the devil's treasure. It's more the principle that it has a value (even if an averaged value, which is likewise what WBL is meant to represent).
My point only being that if you give the devil bodies without forcing it to expend SOME resources, then we have left a general solution for a specific one.
How does a "prepared" fighter handle a "prepared" devil?
For a more general solution, only what is printed in the book should really come into play.
It doesn't matter if the general solution often doesn't resemble specific instances. It should resemble the average of the set of specific instances.
We can opt for a more specific solution, but it should not be conflated as a general solution.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
If it hasn't been noted yet, it may be RAI meant for SLA to operate by SRD description.
It seems clear to me that SLAs probably were not intended to allow an hour casting spell to be mimicked in 6 seconds (without metamagic). But whatever RAI, I agree on the ruling of RAW.
That hardly matters, as the core books always take precedent over conflicting sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
Also, I care not one wit the exact value of the devil's treasure. It's more the principle that it has a value (even if an averaged value, which is likewise what WBL is meant to represent).
My point only being that if you give the devil bodies without forcing it to expend SOME resources, then we have left a general solution for a specific one.
I wouldn't care if the Pit Fiend had to pay for some of the corpses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
How does a "prepared" fighter handle a "prepared" devil?
With difficulty it would seem, if this thread is any indication.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
For a more general solution, only what is printed in the book should really come into play.
Why shouldn't the Pit Fiend be played to the best of its ability?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
It doesn't matter if the general solution often doesn't resemble specific instances. It should resemble the average of the set of specific instances.
We can opt for a more specific solution, but it should not be conflated as a general solution.
I was under the impression that the tactics purposed for the Pit Fiend cover a variety of possible assailants.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
If it hasn't been noted yet, it may be RAI meant for SLA to operate by SRD description.
It seems clear to me that SLAs probably were not intended to allow an hour casting spell to be mimicked in 6 seconds (without metamagic). But whatever RAI, I agree on the ruling of RAW.
Also, I care not one wit the exact value of the devil's treasure. It's more the principle that it has a value (even if an averaged value, which is likewise what WBL is meant to represent).
My point only being that if you give the devil bodies without forcing it to expend SOME resources, then we have left a general solution for a specific one.
How does a "prepared" fighter handle a "prepared" devil?
For a more general solution, only what is printed in the book should really come into play.
It doesn't matter if the general solution often doesn't resemble specific instances. It should resemble the average of the set of specific instances.
We can opt for a more specific solution, but it should not be conflated as a general solution.
Again, there is nothing about the Pit Fiend taking actions that is verboten unacceptable cheating. If the Fighter spends 36 years in a training montage because he heard a Pit Fiend was harassing a village, then it's his fault the Pit Fiend kills all the villagers and turns them into mummies.
The Pit Fiend spending actions to find corpses, create corpses, then create mummies is the sum total of all costs the Pit Fiend should have to pay for those actions.
If a monster has a disintegrate at will and a mountain, you don't say that it's unfair for the monster to have tunnels in the mountain that lead to it's lair just because "well the Beholder should have to pay for that mountain!"
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
The Player's Handbook (Core Rules), states that a Spell-Like Ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Monster Manual and Rules Compendium state "Unless Otherwise Noted" as well which directs me back to the spell which hase a 1 hour casting time.
I digress...
I feel like a Fighter, with a Griffon, and an assortment of standard-issue, non-custom, magical gear could beat a pit fiend in a "Fair Fight". Meaning, if neither one had prep time and it was Pit Fiend vs. Fighter I think the fighter could win. In my head, a half-orc or orc fighter with spirited charge, headlong rush, shock trooper, and a valorous lance, two handing the lance and power attacking could deal 200 damage from the power attack alone. That's not specialized for anything but mounted charging so you can hardly argue that the fighter is specialized to fight the creature. That would also fare well against a Balor as well.
If special circumstances are applying for the monsters, special circumstances have to apply for the fighter as well which means the fighter could easily take leadership, which makes this trivial at best. What I mean by that is if you play a fighter intelligently, you're going to take feats and items that cover your weaknesses just like you would have the Pit Fiend/Balor/Planar/etc. cover it's weaknesses.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnimeTheCat
The Player's Handbook (Core Rules), states that a Spell-Like Ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description. Monster Manual and Rules Compendium state "Unless Otherwise Noted" as well which directs me back to the spell which hase a 1 hour casting time.
That's not how it works; it means unless noted in the SLA's description.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
That's not how it works; it means unless noted in the SLA's description.
Excuse me? PHB? "Unless otherwise noted in the ability or spell description"? That seems pretty cut and dry to me.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
That's not how it works; it means unless noted in the SLA's description.
Yes, the exact text is;
"The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."
Not spell description, ability description.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
Yes, the exact text is;
"The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise."
Not spell description, ability description.
Not in the PHB it isn't. The PHB specifically says "a spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.". Page 180 for inquiring minds.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnimeTheCat
Not in the PHB it isn't. The PHB specifically says "a spell-like ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.". Page 180 for inquiring minds.
I am using the PHB entry from page 142. Plus the MM says the exact same thing.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
I am using the PHB entry from page 142. Plus the MM says the exact same thing.
Page 180 of the PHB does say spell description, but it's the only instance of it, and I am inclined to say it is contradicted by other (more numerous) pieces of text.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
I am using the PHB entry from page 142. Plus the MM says the exact same thing.
You mean page 142 that says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB pg 142 Use Special Ability
Using a special ability is usually a standard action, but whether it is a standard action, a full-round action, or not an action at all is defined by the ability (see Special Abilities, page 180).
You mean that quote that references page 180? Page 180 where it says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHB pg 180 Spell-Like Abilities
A spelllike ability has a casting time of 1 standard action unless noted otherwise in the ability or spell description.
It appears this is just a dysfunction. If you want your pit fiends to be doing an hour of work in 6 seconds, I can't stop you. I won't do it though.
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Page 180 of the PHB does say spell description, but it's the only instance of it, and I am inclined to say it is contradicted by other (more numerous) pieces of text.
Here's the text from the MM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MM pg 315
Using a spell-like ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise, and doing so while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.
It doesn't say anything about an ability description or anything like that. Furthermore doesn't specific trump general? The PHB is more specific in this instance.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AnimeTheCat
It appears this is just a dysfunction. If you want your pit fiends to be doing an hour of work in 6 seconds, I can't stop you. I won't do it though.
This is contradicted by the MM, and since the Pit Fiend is from the MM, it makes sense to use its description for SLAs rather than the PHB.
Edit: Would it kill WotC to hire a better editor?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Deer Jesus Christ on a cracker, why can't WoTC format their books better.