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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
I've taken to rereading the comic over the past few days. I have to say that it really flows together pretty well until Parson decides to go to Jetstone via Magic Kingdom. That's when everything starts becoming visibly overwrought and convoluted. And the very long multi-way conversation in front of the portal happens.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
Morty
I've taken to rereading the comic over the past few days. I have to say that it really flows together pretty well until Parson decides to go to Jetstone via Magic Kingdom. That's when everything starts becoming visibly overwrought and convoluted. And the very long multi-way conversation in front of the portal happens.
That's because it made zero sense for him to go to Jetstone. The only reason he was going there was to give troops the CW bonus. His measly, +3? bonus. By the time he got there, the battle was basically over. Yeah, he got to kill the double of King Slately, but at the cost of Jack. It's pretty obvious that there was no hope to save Spacerock with the forces Jetstone had, or they would not have retreated (Maybe that math changed with the death of the stack of red and green dragons, or the death of all the archons, but at the time Parson went through the portal, those forces had left).
You'd basically have the situation where a bunch of Red Dragons would survive the inferno and anything not a red dragon would be dead. It was a bad choice, not one of the supposed tactical genius that is Parson Gotti.
There's a whole mini arc about him not wanting to send anyone to die in a situation he wouldn't go into himself, but that would make him a decent warlord, not a good Chief Warlord. He can't fight all the battles directly, and is smart enough to know that (hell, if he studied history he should know the power of delegation).
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
Yes, it really feels like a contrived way to get him into Jetstone so Charlie can spring his trap and put him in a bind. Now of course if the food fight plan had gone off without a hitch, it would have been dull. But the alternative was a lot of conflict that felt like a meeting where everyone wants to either decide something or leave, but someone always brings up one more thing.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
To think that all of the current plot mess would have been avoided if Maggie hadn't stuck her nose in.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
NEO|Phyte
To think that all of the current plot mess would have been avoided if Maggie hadn't stuck her nose in.
True, the GM would have taken Parson into custody, Jetstone's inferno would have resolved itself, and we probably never would have gotten to the plot thread where Claud died and the action figure moved bombs under the temple. Definitely wouldn't have gotten to the "GK is invading the MK" arc.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
More that if Maggie hadn't Suggested that Stanley make Parson CW, he wouldn't have had cause to head for Spacerock in the first place to be in a position for the GMs to snag him. Hard to say how different the battle of Spacerock might have gone if they'd had a chief warlord on site for the duration, perhaps no fire breaks out to reach inferno status.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
I think part of Book 2's problem was also that it was all taking place over the course of a single turn. It turned into a big, tangled mess of a clown parade, partly as a result of trying to stretch a single turn of battle over a full book. Obviously, there were other problems, but the fact that Erfworld's immutable structure meant that only a few big, concrete Events could happen meant that Rob had to turn up the "reacting to Events" and "discussing Events" dials in order to compensate to keep Book 2 from being thirty pages long.
And then Rob developed a taste for having those dials cranked up so high, and that's how Books 3 and 4 happened.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
The idea of "how do you win if it's the enemy's turn and they've got you dead to rights" is a good one, and the kind of challenge Parson is supposed to excel at. But it got really bogged down eventually and there were no fewer than three situations where one side places the other in a no-win situation, but then they turn it back.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
Yeah, it kinda degenerating into a Yu-Gi-Ho episode where both sides keep going "You just activated my trap card!"
My most hated moment was probably when it turns out that green dwagons are just balloons filled with explosive gas so just puncture a hole in one, add a little fire, and they all blow up in a chain reaction. Doubly so when GK's own commanders fail to see it coming despite supposedly having plenty of experience with dwagons, while it's the enemy caster (which are supposed to be tactically inept) that comes out with the strategy to take them out.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
deuterio12
Yeah, it kinda degenerating into a Yu-Gi-Ho episode where both sides keep going "You just activated my trap card!"
My most hated moment was probably when it turns out that green dwagons are just balloons filled with explosive gas so just puncture a hole in one, add a little fire, and they all blow up in a chain reaction. Doubly so when GK's own commanders fail to see it coming despite supposedly having plenty of experience with dwagons, while it's the enemy caster (which are supposed to be tactically inept) that comes out with the strategy to take them out.
Yeah. That was incredibly stupid along the lines of "let's burn down the garrison we are in off turn"
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
To be fair, Sylvia was a few bricks short of a load and convinced she's invincible. Also, this overwrought sequence did bring us some good moments, like Slately gearing up and heading out to fight. Some development from a character who'd until then been a stubborn, conceited ass. And it didn't even involve casters linking, so that's a plus.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
Morty
To be fair, Sylvia was a few bricks short of a load and convinced she's invincible.
See, this is just another scenario showing just how powerful the maphack table was. It would've allowed Hamster/Stanley or somebody else with some bit of sanity to notice that Sylvia had several screws loose in real time and prevent her from getting a good chunk of their own army blown up or burned down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Morty
Also, this overwrought sequence did bring us some good moments, like Slately gearing up and heading out to fight. Some development from a character who'd until then been a stubborn, conceited ass. And it didn't even involve casters linking, so that's a plus.
Considering that Slatlley heading out to fight personally ended up getting him killed and thus almost ending his own side (if not for his dittomancer's quick thinking and faster casting), he was still a stubborn, conceited ass to the bitter end. Also it was more power creep in caster side since turns out dittomancy can replicate a side's unique ruler well enough to keep the side running and didn't even cost that much juice.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
deuterio12
Considering that Slatlley heading out to fight personally ended up getting him killed and thus almost ending his own side (if not for his dittomancer's quick thinking and faster casting), he was still a stubborn, conceited ass to the bitter end. Also it was more power creep in caster side since turns out dittomancy can replicate a side's unique ruler well enough to keep the side running and didn't even cost that much juice.
Well, now that we have towers we don't even need real rulers.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
tigerusthegreat
Well, now that we have towers we don't even need real rulers.
I wonder if the towers end up doing to their rulers what Olive did to Judy of Haffaton.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
MReav
I wonder if the towers end up doing to their rulers what Olive did to Judy of Haffaton.
Now that would be interesting. It would remove the "Keystone Army" aspect from erfworld, which always seemed like a particularly boring aspect.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
tigerusthegreat
Now that would be interesting. It would remove the "Keystone Army" aspect from erfworld, which always seemed like a particularly boring aspect.
The Keystone nature would still exist in my scenario, they just have to find the drugged out and helpless rulers while dealing with a hostile tower.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
MReav
The Keystone nature would still exist in my scenario, they just have to find the drugged out and helpless rulers while dealing with a hostile tower.
Get a dirtmancer to make a cave, shove the comatose ruler inside then close any entrances. Now you can't destroy the side at all if you lack a dirtmancer of your own!
Although something basic that nobody in Erfworld seemed to do was having an heir and hiding them in some secondary city that rarely sees trouble. Seems like every side with an heir just kept sending said heir to the most dangerous locations possible. Like Slatley popped a crapload of princes and somehow managed to get them all croaked.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
deuterio12
Get a dirtmancer to make a cave, shove the comatose ruler inside then close any entrances. Now you can't destroy the side at all if you lack a dirtmancer of your own!
Although something basic that nobody in Erfworld seemed to do was having an heir and hiding them in some secondary city that rarely sees trouble. Seems like every side with an heir just kept sending said heir to the most dangerous locations possible. Like Slatley popped a crapload of princes and somehow managed to get them all croaked.
My guess is that Rulers and Heirs get some kind of stat bonus, which makes it very useful to use them in combat.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
tigerusthegreat
My guess is that Rulers and Heirs get some kind of stat bonus, which makes it very useful to use them in combat.
Yet casters are even more useful than any simple static bonus, but most sides keep theirs at the capitals and only use them in combat when their backs are against the wall (and sometimes not even then, many rulers seemingly just going "welp we're screwed, you casters go the safe magic kingdom while us muggles are stuck here").
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
I'm really not interested in picking apart every action characters take and proclaiming them dumb. Slately's decision felt like a good character moment to me, that's it.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
deuterio12
Yet casters are even more useful than any simple static bonus, but most sides keep theirs at the capitals and only use them in combat when their backs are against the wall (and sometimes not even then, many rulers seemingly just going "welp we're screwed, you casters go the safe magic kingdom while us muggles are stuck here").
I think that boils down to rulers not understanding magic very well. The two characters who understand the implications of magic best are Parson and Charlie and they've managed to break the whole comic through the 4th wall.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
It's clearly part of it, but remember that most casters can't affect things outside their current hex. That's a severe limitation which means you have to risk them every time you use them (and it's dangerous to risk them.)
Charlie has the Arkendish to cheat that rule, plus his normal units are also casters, plus (as a caster) he understands the Magic Kingdom better than most rulers is therefore better at taking advantage of it, plus his unlimited Thinkagrams makes him better at taking advantage of the MK anyway since he can dial up a caster any time he pleases at no cost.
Parson has the Arkenpliers (which are so good you can't justify not having them at the front), plus many of the situations he's encountered have either been at his capital or in the MK, making using casters both easier and more important.
Like, clearly Jetstone could have been using its casters better, but I can understand their decision to not send their Dittomancer or their Healamancer to the frontlines. They provide *some* benefit at the capital, especially in an emergency (the Dittomancer saved the side, after all), whereas if you send them to the front line they're just going to die eventually.
Also, the magical expertise provided by casters is important, too. Even if Jetstone didn't totally take advantage of it, keeping their casters home as advisors does have advantages, potentially ones that outweigh the benefits of having them on the front.
Finally, remember that unless you pay to go through Charlie or a Thinkamancer, you must have a caster in your capital to communicate with the Magic Kingdom (and you really, really need a caster familiar with its social dynamics to accomplish anything from that.) Not that most kings are any better at utilizing that, but it's another argument for keeping your casters safe in the capital.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
Morty
I'm really not interested in picking apart every action characters take and proclaiming them dumb. Slately's decision felt like a good character moment to me, that's it.
What's exactly good about recklessly risking one's side?
Actually that's quite a disturbing trend among royal rulers that they'll rather suicide and bring their whole side down with them one way or another when their backs are against the wall. Slatley wasn't even the first nor the last, there was the Unaroyal queen before and then Vinnie himself both choosing death by portal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aquillion
Not that most kings are any better at utilizing that, but it's another argument for keeping your casters safe in the capital.
That just goes back to the previous question of why play it so safe with casters while sending every last heir to the frontlines.
To summarize it:
Casters that are important but not essential: PROTECT AT ALL COSTS!
Heirs that work as extra lives for your side: ATTACK UNTIL THEY DIE!
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
You can choose to pop a heir whenever you want. You can't do that with casters. It's only been pressing to us because of weird circumstances. I mean wasting a heir is bad, sure, but ultimately it just costs you money, and that's a reasonable risk in exchange for leveling your heir (which produces a higher-level overlord that will, presumably, get more loyalty once they're in charge.)
And yes, I know they can hire from the Magic Kingdom. They don't, presumably due to concerns over loyalty (not entirely unjustified given MK politics.)
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aquillion
You can choose to pop a heir whenever you want. You can't do that with casters. It's only been pressing to us because of weird circumstances. I mean wasting a heir is bad, sure, but ultimately it just costs you money, and that's a reasonable risk in exchange for leveling your heir (which produces a higher-level overlord that will, presumably, get more loyalty once they're in charge.)
And yes, I know they can hire from the Magic Kingdom. They don't, presumably due to concerns over loyalty (not entirely unjustified given MK politics.)
Money isn't infinite. If anything, most sides seem to always be having problems in that front, including the ones that have an actual moneymancer. And as you yourself point out, you can also throw money at the Magic Kingdom to get caster. And caster loyalty isn't a problem because even casters popped by your own side aren't that loyal in the first place (cough thinkmancer club cough). Don believed Bunny to be super duper loyal, and how did that end up for him? Even better, with the MK you can pick the exact type of caster you want to buy and they'll probably come with a bunch of levels to boot, while popping a random caster gets you, well, a random type and only lv1.
Plus you can level up heirs just fine at the safety of your capital by feeding them prisioners to execute.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
Well it was nice getting three updates in a row. Probably wont hear anything until october.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
deuterio12
Money isn't infinite.
Not in Erfworld apparently, and Charlie has most of it, so it's no wonder the rest are suffering for the lack.
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
halfeye
Not in Erfworld apparently, and Charlie has most of it, so it's no wonder the rest are suffering for the lack.
By that standard Charlie also has infinite juice, but basically every other caster has to make do with limited mana pool. Charlie being a cheater is kinda his main sthick
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
Don't degrade Charlie like that, he may be the antagonist of this story, but I respect the hell out of him. There is a HUGE difference between getting more juice as opposed to smuckers.
He rightfully scammed every penny from other schmucks. He worked himself to the bone for years and years. Constantly selling himself, constantly negotiating, planning, scamming in ways that were always technically within his code of conduct. It was a dangerous line, because if he went too far, then he would make enemies of other kingdoms, and being seen as a threat is horrible for business. Plus, he did it as a drug addicted cripple. Even with the Arkendish, it's a workload that I could never imagine being able to replicate.
Unlike with juice, there is no printing press that Charlie can just get running to give himself infinite money, and his expenses can easily outstrip his income if people stop hiring his services. Have a little respect the hard work Charlie put in to make the money he did!
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Re: Erfworld Thread XI: Finally, it's HAMMER-TIME!
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Originally Posted by
tigerusthegreat
Well it was nice getting three updates in a row. Probably wont hear anything until october.
All this emphasis on her being a writer and the problems and thoughts thereof feels a bit autobiographical...
The 3D look seems fine until there's a person in the shot, at which point it goes all uncanny-valley. This could be used for a few shots in text updates, but it isn't going to work for the entire comic, and it's going to be unworkable the moment they have something strange or unusual they want to show.