Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
Herpestidae
So put Tarquin as "Has levels in an Unknown Class, possibly one that uses Maneuvers." or something to that effect.
That's a pretty meaningless statement, though.
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Originally Posted by
FujinAkari
We should note that Eugene does not, in fact, lie "all the time."
Indeed. Bear in mind that Eugene is lawful. Rather than a sweeping statement that he "lies all the time", I would strongly prefer seeing a list of instances where he has lied. The only one I can remember off the top of my head was when he missed Roy's sports match to speak to Right-Eye.
It strikes me that both Belkar and Haley lie substantially more often than Eugene does, and we are treating statements by Belkar and Haley as permissible evidence (the occasional joke aside) because this threa would get a lot shorter if we wouldn't.
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Originally Posted by
RMS Oceanic
Sidestep Charge is a pretty good find, and I agree that it looks like what he's doing,
Question: is this the only explanation we could find within the rules, or merely the best-looking one?
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Indeed. Bear in mind that Eugene is lawful. Rather than a sweeping statement that he "lies all the time", I would strongly prefer seeing a list of instances where he has lied. The only one I can remember off the top of my head was when he missed Roy's sports match to speak to Right-Eye.
The only other one I can recall is when he agreed to contact Roy about Darth V, then burned the message.
You could make a case for the Being of Pure Law and Goodness impersonation, but that was more Shojo's idea, Eugene just helped.
Ultimately, I do think it is fair to say that Eugene is perfectly willing to lie and has no quams against it, but I think it is a mistake to assume everything he says is a lie, -especially- when the statement in question is on a detail which the person being lied to is fully aware of the truth anyway.
You can't convincingly lie to me and tell me I have six toes on my left foot, and Eugene can't convincingly lie to Roy and tell him he is the highest level good character if Roy knows darn well he isn't.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
None of this should matter in the slightest. Roy, Elan, Durkon, and Haley could all be level 13, "the field" could be restricted to the space contested by the hobgoblin and Azure City armies before the latter broke, and Roy could still be considered "the highest level good character on the field". He would not be the only highest level good character on the field, but he would still be at the top of the list. Eugene's statement does not preclude ties.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
Kish
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Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic
I've said before it makes sense to revisit our assumptions, so what do you guys think: Should we now assume the disarmee/tripee/graplee not making an AoO means the disarmer/triper/grapler has the Improved [action] feat, or should we continue needing other proof of it?
We should continue needing other evidence.
The absence of an AoO, to which Roy would otherwise have been entitled, is perfectly straightforward evidence of the feat, imo. There was absolutely no reason for Roy to forego his AoO for this round, since Tarquin's the only enemy he's fighting, and a clear and present danger to the party.
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The AoO rules are very much not the sort of thing Rich is scrupulously precise about.
This last comic is itself a clear indication that Rich, indeed, pays attention to the AoO mechanic. And we can't know what feats he actually assigned to the characters, apart from the rare cases when they're openly named in the comic: even with overwhelming evidence, we can only infer.
Even if Rich didn't plan for Tarquin to have Improved Trip, the way he wrote the comic, Tarquin has Improved Trip. And since Rich wrote Tarquin actually tripping Roy as an attack, I'd say he at least looked up what tripping involves in D&D.
BTW, this is totally in line with Tarquin's "intelligent Fighter" concept: remember how he strategically uses Bull Rush and Bluffed Feint coupled with Disarm on previous occasions. The last one is also good evidence of Tarquin having Improved Feint due to him making a bluff check and an attack in the same turn.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
When it comes to Eugene's statement, the relevant question is not "Is it true?" but "Is it true ENOUGH to sting Roy?" I submit that Soon's presence doesn't lessen the sting one bit, simply because Roy's death occurred before Soon's appearance, and because Soon could not be expected to lead the fight, being absent until the throne room was all but overrun. At the other extreme, if Roy were not higher level than Hinjo, then the statement would carry no weight at all; we can safely assume Roy is higher level than Hinjo with Eugene's word as evidence (though it's not the ONLY evidence we have; consider their fights with post-Fall Miko, for example).
When considering the rest of the Order, there's an additional wrinkle, which is that as the Order's leader Roy bears a lot of responsibility for their actions no matter the actual level disparity. That might not weigh as heavily on Eugene's mind in making the statement, as Eugene is less than savvy about relationships of all kinds, but it would certainly weigh on Roy's. This is why I say that Eugene's statement rules out a party member being higher level than Roy, but not necessarily a party member being the same level as Roy.
In any event, whatever the correct interpretation turns out to be, I can't see it putting Roy higher than 14th level at the time of his death. I mean, where could he have gained XP without his party? The fight with post-Fall Miko, maybe...and he slept through the latter half of Linear Guild round 2, so that evens out.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Question: is this the only explanation we could find within the rules, or merely the best-looking one?
Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 was proposed as another explanation for the AoO, but I disagree with it. RG says you resolve your AoO before your opponent strikes, and in the comic it's clear Roy attacks and misses before Tarquin responds, which is the order that Sidestep Charge dictates things happen. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice another explanation for how Tarquin did this.
Speaking of best-looking explanation, what's your opinion on the Arrow Snatching? I initially marked it as the feat and its prerequisites, but then my attention was drawn to the magic item. Is that enough to withdraw the feat entry, or would you say it's better to assume the feat until the magic item can be proven?
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Soon wasn't "on the field" or even the plane until after Roy died.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
RMS Oceanic
Speaking of best-looking explanation, what's your opinion on the Arrow Snatching? I initially marked it as the feat and its prerequisites, but then my attention was drawn to the magic item. Is that enough to withdraw the feat entry, or would you say it's better to assume the feat until the magic item can be proven?
We have seen characters wearing gloves in OOTS. Namely, Thor has been seen wearing gloves, as has, if you want a more human-sized example, the Azurite blacksmith. We also know that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Another example where Eugene lied was where he told his children he met their mother in the library, when it was actually in a bar.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
zimmerwald1915
Excellent point! :smallsmile: I'm used to wondering whether they're wearing rings and stuff, which isn't nearly as apparent.
What do people thing about including Sidestep Charge? Are there any other explanations I've missed?
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
zimmerwald1915
I don't know that you can take that as certain evidence that Tarquin isn't wearing gloves or gauntlets of some sort, though. I mean, we know Durkon is wearing full plate, which comes with gauntlets as per the description, but we don't see those. However, it also comes with a helmet in the description, which he is clearly not wearing, so perhaps I am making a silly argument.
...also, we don't know for sure that Haley isn't wearing gloves of dexterity, just that she is not wearing gloves of dexterity +6. I'd frankly be a little surprised if she had none at all.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
Lothston
I guess what really blew Tarquin's mind was the idea that Elan is actually not keen on engaging him in dramatic 1-on-1 combat, thereby sinking the
"ideal final standoff between father and son" which Tarquin seems to be aiming for.
Well, no wonder Elan isn't keen on engaging him in dramatic 1-on-1 combat, he thinks it's Thog. Tarquin should not be surprised at this.
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Originally Posted by
Kish
Claiming that a character who lies all the time lies all the time is exactly as correct as claiming that his claims should be treated as Word of God. Mm no.
If anyone is still confused by this sentence:
Eugene is, according to some, (a character who lies all the time).
Kish's sentence refers to the act of "Claiming that (a character who lies all the time) lies all the time". It's intentionally tautologous.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
RMS Oceanic
Robilar's Gambit from PHB2 was proposed as another explanation for the AoO, but I disagree with it. RG says you resolve your AoO before your opponent strikes, and in the comic it's clear Roy attacks and misses before Tarquin responds, which is the order that Sidestep Charge dictates things happen. I may have missed it, but I didn't notice another explanation for how Tarquin did this.
Actually, you got that the wrong way for Robilar's Gambit: it specifically says that your AoO comes after the attack that provoked it. I would still definitely go with Sidestep Charge in this case though, because
1. OotS very rarely uses non-core material, much less non-SRD material, so when presented with two possible explanations it's much better to go with the SRD one.
2. What Tarquin did unambiguously looks like a sidestep charge, while the visual cue for Robilar's Gambit is much more subtle (although his stance in the last panel of 850 does look like it might qualify).
3. Tarquin's AC has been shown to be quite high, but I seriously doubt it's not-get-hit-by-a-charging-fighter-while-using-Robilar's-Gambit high.
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Something to note about Sidestep Charge: its description does not say a fighter can take it as a fighter bonus feat. If Tarquin has it, it's in his level 18, level 15, level 12, level 9, level 6, level 3, level 1, or human bonus feat slot. Granted, this doesn't tell us much, but it's something.
As for the dwarf-toss, has the Martial Throw feat from the Miniatures Handbook been considered as a possible explanation?
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
Actually, if you look at most of the arguments, none of them mention XP at all. Only levels. I'm certainly not counting XP here.
Well… when you say things like “where could he have gained XP without his party?”, you gotta understand the reason I say people keep asking about XP.
Oh, and about Roy being level 17+… I really have said that, when we first begun this discussion, but I changed my mind. I still think that he’s level 16+, but I agree that being 17+ is unlikely.
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
There are two questions here: "Is that an attack from Roy?", and "Is it in the same round as the following panels"?
The answer to the first question is unclear. Both characters are in attacking positions--well, except that Roy's sword swing is nowhere near where Thog would be without blocking, whereas Thog's axe is on a path to Roy without blocking.
That’s because Thog is leaning away to avoid Roy’s attack. He is clearly in a defensive position (his upper body inclined backwards, the axe positioned to hold the sword’s movement). Thog's position is pretty much the same as shown in the panel above this one, where he is dodging.
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Originally Posted by
Math_Mage
The same reasoning certainly applies to the latter two panels you cite in #795--Roy making continuous attacks with Thog using his axe to block, and Roy finally breaking through on the third attack. However, the first panel has both characters in entirely different positions, set up so one can't even tell who's attacking.
One can always argue that The Giant is not drawing a single round here, but that would lead to the question: "why isn't Thog attacking back". 'Cause he's not.
Roy is in a different position in this panel because he's drawn in the movement between positions, shifting from the dodge shown last panel to a more aggressive behavior. His dialog reflects that shift: at the same panel, he gives an example of not- opposites (as he was doing last panel), then he presented his closing arguments. His attacks against Thog begins with him yelling "NO! That's not a good point". He will finish this sequence with another furious yell ("NOTHING!").
Each panel shows, closer and closer, a slightly different position of both characters: Roy is increasingly offensive (he's beating down Thog with both sword and words) and Thog, on the other hand, is portrayed increasingly vulnerable (he seems harmless at first, then scared, then hurt). He don't even have a chance to answer (neither with a line or a swing of his axe).
The relative positions of both character also changes: Roy is shown in a higher and higher position each passing panel - which is a visual clue used by the artist to further reinforce the idea of gradual victory over Thog. These gradual changes reinforce the sense of continuity and movement, binding these panels together in a single sequence.