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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Yes, that should work; but the issue here is action economy. Empower Combat, Awesome Blow / Throw, Gobbler, and grab each require a standard action and cannot be used in spell combat.
So for a Magus, it's probably easier to achieve these effects with the Rock Whip or Battering Blast spell.
I agree; It is still a suboptimal build to a standard operating magus. I was experimenting with the possibilities of Empower Combat, considering that the ability seems to be the main draw to the archetype and has a unique angle at enhancing combat maneuvers. If only the Spell Maneuvers feature worked for any combat maneuver, then that build would be a bit more considerable in action economy.
EDIT: Excellent guide, by the way.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
I searched the thread and couldn't find any discussion about it, but is there any reason Mischievous Tail isn't on the feat list? It lets a character's tail be treated for all purposes as a free hand except that it can't wield a weapon or shield. As far as I can tell, this would allow a magus to sword and board or even two-hand their one-handed weapon with their main hands, leaving their tail to do the casting, since combat casting and somatic spells only requires "one hand free". On the other hand, it does require Grasping Tail as a prereq, and the DEX cost is a bit steep for a STR build without Artful Dodge, so it can add a bit of feat expense.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Regarding spells picked via Spell Blending or the lv19 feature, do you think Calcific Touch is worth mentioning? It's once per turn only, so you cannot expect to kill something within two turns, but it's still Dex damage with no save, self-serving since the reduced Dex will make subsequent touches easier, the slow rider, if the target fails the save, is a nice bonus, and it's a melee touch attack too, so it can crit without spending an arcana or feat on Close Range. The once per turn limitation is quite annoying, but I'd say the spell is worth considering even so.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brandenfascher
is there any reason Mischievous Tail isn't on the feat list? It lets a character's tail be treated for all purposes as a free hand except that it can't wield a weapon or shield. As far as I can tell, this would allow a magus to sword and board or even two-hand their one-handed weapon with their main hands, leaving their tail to do the casting
I'm not convinced that would work. Spell combat states that it's "like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." So since Mischievous Tail cannot wield an off-hand weapon, arguably it can't be used for spell combat either.
The damage bonus from two-handing your weapon is clearly not worth three feats (it's less than weapon specialization, which by itself already isn't very good). Rather than getting an AC boost from a shield, it strikes me as more effective to use your tail to hold a metarod; which a tiefling can do without spending feats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaos Jackal
Regarding spells picked via Spell Blending or the lv19 feature, do you think Calcific Touch is worth mentioning? It's once per turn only, so you cannot expect to kill something within two turns, but it's still Dex damage with no save
While it's certainly a stylish spell, you can generate the same effect cheaper with Frostbite + Rime Spell and/or Enforcer.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
I'm not convinced that would work. Spell combat states that it's "like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast." So since Mischievous Tail cannot wield an off-hand weapon, arguably it can't be used for spell combat either.
I interpreted that phrasing differently, such that it was illustrating an example of comparison and contrast, like this: "This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is [instead] a spell being cast." (with bold for emphasis and clarity brackets being mine), and I don't think it means to classify spell-casting as what the game tends to term as weapons as they can't be wielded as such. Then I understood that the following sentence stated the ability's actual requirements for the casting hand: "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components)...".
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
The damage bonus from two-handing your weapon is clearly not worth three feats (it's less than weapon specialization, which by itself already isn't very good). Rather than getting an AC boost from a shield, it strikes me as more effective to use your tail to hold a metarod; which a tiefling can do without spending feats.
I guess was talking about races that would need to spend a feat for Grasping Tail anyways, and with Dex builds it's just one more feat on top, though those builds are stretched as it is. However, I see your point in that managing spell-casting action economy takes priority in the gish build.
The pseudo improved steal and improved disarm also seemed like a nice addition to the feat too, but i guess I just realized those maneuvers wouldn't work with the feat while holding a rod or anything with the tail... I suppose you could disarm the enemy wizard's rod and use it against him... I wonder if a magical tail Kitsune could get some mileage out of it though.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brandenfascher
I guess was talking about races that would need to spend a feat for Grasping Tail anyways
Ah, I see what I missed. The grasping tail feat from ARG has prerequisite "race: tiefling" and the same feat from planar adventures does not.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
From Chronicle of Legends, the Magus's new capstone gives you two more pluses when enchanting your weapon; which is decent but nothing special. A better option is to take Perfect Body to boost your strength or dex by eight points. And really, the most fitting capstone for a Magus is With This Sword, which changes your weapon into a 100,000-gp artifact.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
From Chronicle of Legends, the Magus's new capstone gives you two more pluses when enchanting your weapon; which is decent but nothing special. A better option is to take Perfect Body to boost your strength or dex by eight points. And really, the most fitting capstone for a Magus is With This Sword, which changes your weapon into a 100,000-gp artifact.
Interesting, are these additional options related to an archetype, a region, or are they free for all?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Selion
Interesting, are these additional options related to an archetype, a region, or are they free for all?
Free for all, except that the kensai, myrmidarch, and puppetmaster have their own fixed capstone and cannot pick these.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Would it be worth it to take a 1 level dip in Wizard for an Eldritch Archer to gain access to the Admixture school power to use with Snowball?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim41
Would it be worth it to take a 1 level dip in Wizard for an Eldritch Archer to gain access to the Admixture school power to use with Snowball?
Well, as an EA you probably shouldn't be using snowball. It's more effective to ignore ranged spellstrike and instead cast buffs or area spells instead.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Here's something I've always wondered - there are multiple hybrid classes, and multiple types of in-class multiclasses (I think it's called multiclass archtypes?) - so what would it take to start with a Wizard (or better, an Arcanist) and put the Blade Adept archtype to shame by building a hybrid based on the Magus and following the spirit of ye olde Battle Sorcerer from 3.5? There are rules for it I believe?
EDIT: Nevermind...of all the possible hybrids attempted, no one would touch Arcanist/Wizard and Magus...
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KellKheraptis
EDIT: Nevermind...of all the possible hybrids attempted, no one would touch Arcanist/Wizard and Magus...
Indeed. And aside from balance issues, the magus and its archetypes are already in themselves basically hybrids of arcane full casters, so mixing up the same components again would make for a rather conceptually indistinct new class, to say the least.
That said, I think there's still room for some distinct and potentially very flavorful new archetypes mixing magus components with those of other classes in unique ways. Like say an alchemist-magus with "alchemical strike" instead of spellstrike and clockwork-/alchemy-based features instead of spells. Or a mystic-magus gishing with element-based martial maneuvers, glyphs and spells. Or maybe a hunter/summoner-magus with a unique magical mount.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
upho
Or a mystic-magus gishing with element-based martial maneuvers, glyphs and spells.
Mage Hunter *cough*suelarcanamach*cough* is already kind of that, just as a prestige class instead of an archetype.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cieyrin
Mage Hunter *cough*suelarcanamach*cough* is already kind of that, just as a prestige class instead of an archetype.
Well, sure there are some similarities: the magus' spell combat and the MH's "swift-cast with strike"-stance are both gish action economy enhancers, the MH also cast from the magus spell list and has access to maneuvers. But I believe there are both room for significant differentiation within those features, and plenty of other features which would make the "mystic-magus element-master" distinctly different.
Importantly, the MH has no element related features at all, but instead a bunch of very different anti-caster/-spell related ones. And on top of that, the MH is a PrC with some very specific enty prereqs. I'd actually be far more concerned about the mechanical and conceptual similarities a magus-based bladecaster build could have.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
I would be tempted to adapt the Battle Mage homebrew for this - it's basically the Battle Sorcerer done right, and includes a special that gives ye olde duskblade channeling (as it's written for 3.5). I'll keep that to its own thread, obviously.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Added capstones from Chronicle of Legends, note on VMC + Phantom Blade, and Occultist dip.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
So, as my game is reaching a major point, I thought I'd post my own build here, for advice and suggestions.
Spoiler: The build
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12. Rolled stats, starting Str was 16->18 from race. Str ASIs, Wis is buffed from item.
Archetype: None (Bladebound wasn't allowed to me for narrative issues)
Current level: 8
Race: Human
Racial abilities: bonus feat, extra skill points
Racial class bonus: +1 Arcane Pool, +4 hit points
Skills: Fly 3, Intimidate 1, Knowledge Arcana maxed, others as needed, Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft maxed, Swim 1
Traits: No traits allowed, unfortunately
Arcana
- 3.Familiar
- 6.Flamoboyant Arcana
Feats
- 1.Combat Casting; Toughness (race, bonus)
- 3.Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Estoc
- 5.Improved Initiative; Intensified Spell
- 7.Improved Familiar (faerie dragon, emissary archetype)
- 8.Lunge (Combat Casting retrain)
Spells
Basically all that I need. Depending on the fight, I've got SG and Frostbite for damage, Duelist's Parry, Mirror Image and Displacement for defense, Glitterdust/Web, Haste if our NPC bard isn't around, Fly, Monstrous Physique I and Dispel Magic. These are my most commonly used in-combat ones, but I've had plenty of opportunities to borrow or study other spellbooks, so I have around 15 spells inscribed per level; all the utility and situational tricks I might need out of combat is there.
Items
- Wands of Shield, Infernal Healing
- Scrolls of Invisibility, Obscuring Mist, Glitterdust
- +2 Estoc
- +2 Breastplate
- +2 Cloak of Resistance
- +1 Ring of Protection
- +2 Headband of Wisdom
- Pearl of Power lv1
- Pearl of Power lv2
Spoiler: Thoughts
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Items are generally handed to us, rather than purchased. We're mostly allowed to freely buy consumables, but for weapons, armor and slotted items, we generally gotta make do with what we're given. At some levels this brought us way below WBL; at others, rather ahead. It's also why I don't have a keen weapon, or why I don't wear a Belt of Giant Strength rather than a Headband of Wisdom.
I am aware that Toughness isn't exactly excellent, but at the game's start, outside of my magus, we had an unchained Knife Master rogue, an archer ranger (who was also playing her first ever tabletop RPG, PF or otherwise) and a sorcerer of the "Why aren't there any more blasts for me to learn?" type, meaning that I was forced both to do most of the melee tanking as well as manage whatever limited BFC I could. Extra HP were helpful, especially when I had to spend more slots than I'd like on Glitterdust and Grease and never be certain I'd have enough for Shield or Mirror Image, particularly at lower levels.
By now, it's only me and the rogue left; the sorc and ranger dropped out. The party is usually aided by a bard NPC of equivalent level, which thankfully means I don't have to add support to my roles as much, and at times by a (blaster, damn it) cleric NPC or guest players that usually play martials thrown together within 5 minutes, but I'm still the one usually beaten on by the BBEG. At least I have more spell slots, so I can leverage my defenses better, and will hopefully retrain out of the feat.
The familiar is another consequence of that. With only two PCs (and formerly two very unoptimized ones), there's not much variety to go around with skill checks, and a faerie dragon basically grants me a reroll for every Wis or Int check, buffs mine with at-will Guidance from Emissary, and can aid our (very limited) BFC through Silent Image and Grease, as well as stuff like throwing tanglefoot bags. So far, I haven't regretted the versatility and utility of Improved Familiar, though I had doubts at first.
The plan is to pick Blind-Fight, either through an ioun stone (GM's a bit weird on what items can be found/purchased) or through the aforementioned Toughness retrain, so I can qualify for Eldritch Assault at lv9 and pick it alongside the Accurate Strike Arcana. Later on I wanna pick Rime Spell and Empowered Spell so I can qualify for Spell Perfection, as well as Spell Penetration, and perhaps Extra Arcana for Spell Blending/Close Range if I get an ioun stone so I can retrain Toughness for it rather than Blind-Fight. Outside of that, I'll probably go with the Maximized Magic and Quickened Magic arcanas (perhaps some more Spell Blending instead of Maximized Magic if I can get a Book of Harms).
Any glaring flaws or needed improvements? Any ideas on future progression?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chaos Jackal
So, as my game is reaching a major point, I thought I'd post my own build here, for advice and suggestions.
Looks solid overall. I suppose you're only using an estoc because you got one as a random drop? Because you could use a rapier or scimitar instead and retrain out of the EWP feat. Or buy a Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid, which does the same thing. You could also consider retraining Imp Initiative; while it's a good feat, you have a lot of competition there. You should probably save a feat slot for Dimensional Agility and Aerial Roll...
You should get a higher fly skill, the aim is to get +14 so you automatically make your checks. Spellcraft / arcana / sense motive look like they're already high enough so you can skip them for a few levels.
And get more consumables, especially since you can't buy regular magic items. HTH!
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Nah, I just decided I could as well go with an exotic when we started since I had a bonus feat to "spare". Sure, 1.5 extra damage per attack is worse than the already mediocre Weapon Spec, but you know, flavor and whatnot. Helped at the first levels as well when we had some dueling tournament and martial exhibition sessions where my character was allowed to enchant the weapon but otherwise could not use magic. Estoc gaining the increased Str from two-handing it was a neat boost.
Perhaps I'll switch it over to a thornblade or just retrain out of it entirely, as you suggested, though; as you said, I'm a bit tight on feats, and Aerial Roll in particular can save me a lot in resources, since I can't exactly drain my pool over one fight only with Flamboyant Arcana.
Dimensional Agility I'm a bit torn on however. While I do see its merits, and admittedly it's quite strong, early on 4th-level slots are kind of a commodity (especially with Black Tentacles and Greater Invisibility available), and while an 800ft pounce is impressive... just how often will you need 800ft, or 500ft, or even 100ft? Out of combat you don't need pounce, and in combat it feels like, most of the time, Bladed Dash/Storm Step are enough. I dunno, Dimensional Agility seems a bit more situational than expected.
Yeah, Fly could use a boost. I was under the mistaken impression for a while that the spell would grant an additional +4 for good maneuverability, alongside the caster level bonus, before realizing that this only applied to natural flight speed. It's been left kinda low, but now it's a definite priority. Consumables are also getting an eventual increase; turns out, isolated island chains full of pirates and rebels don't offer much in the way of magic item shops. One would expect the bastards to have at least a few wands stolen or something...
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
I love the guide, but just wanted to leave a comment on Divinatory Strike, as I just finished playing a character in PFS with it (and have seen a few other characters with it when I was playing someone else). I found that as a Dex based character (Sylph Magus, so yeah I had like zero feats to play around with), with only reactionary and an ioun stone to boost initiative beyond that, I was going first a decent amount, or at least soon in the order. With Dex to damage only with the scimitar, my attack routine wasn't likely to change regardless of DR, and with the number of skill points you get with int boosts, I had all of the monster knowledges covered, some better than others. Between the 15-20 crit range, the high number of attacks with spellstrike, quickened spells, and haste, the "This ability works even if the magus has already attempted a Knowledge check to identify the creature" line applied quite often, and proved quite useful, especially against powerful monsters that don't go down in the first round, have multiple special abilities, or are of a much higher CR than you causing the one free knowledge check from seeing it to fail if rolling low, such as unique enemies at CR+4 (19+level is not an easy check to roll, but getting a natural 20 helps). Several times this was the only way we were able to identify the monster. I'm not rating this as excellent or anything, but I definitely can say it although it is situational (especially because some enemies can't be crit), it was useful most fights, and does exactly what it says it does, which is let's you be the knowledge house of the party, as the Int-based character is wont to do. If there was a rating in your guide between okay and good, I would give it that.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krogania
I love the guide, but just wanted to leave a comment on Divinatory Strike, as I just finished playing a character in PFS with it
Thank you for your post. Frankly, I am surprised that it happened often that, after your full attack with at least one crit, the enemy is still standing.
I suppose the arcana could be rated yellow, for parties that don't have a dedicated knowledge character AND that regularly face high-CR enemies. Even then, a buff like Investigative Mind (10m/l roll twice on all knowledge checks) strikes me as more practical.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Is there a first party way for a Magus to pick up a single Rogue Talent, or bardic music, without multiclassing?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grim Reader
Is there a first party way for a Magus to pick up a single Rogue Talent, or bardic music, without multiclassing?
The best I can come up with is using Spell Blending to learn Summon Monster VI, and summon a Lillend Azata; or Summon V + Expanded Summon Monster feat to summon an Ostiarius; or maybe play an Entwined Syrinx.
Does variant multiclassing count? By spending two feats you can get Bard Song at level 7.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Thanks. The thing is, I am planning a Magus for a 3.P campaign. It is unlikely to go to 20, but I am still planning the character as if it did. I am looking at Magus/Sublime Chord/Eldrich Knight. So the issue is where to get the required Bardic Music. There is a Rogue Talent that will fake it, or I need the music itself. I could do variant multiclassing, but the problem is, you can't just stop that when you got what you want, it keeps going. So it would cost me 5 feats in total. I think I'd just as soon drop the 10th leave of Magus in favor of Bard.
Fighter Training is nice, but not 5 feats nice. The level 4 spell would be nice but Sublime Chord takes care of that.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grim Reader
Thanks. The thing is, I am planning a Magus for a 3.P campaign. It is unlikely to go to 20, but I am still planning the character as if it did. I am looking at Magus/Sublime Chord/Eldrich Knight.
Right. In that case, I would go Magus 9 / Argent Dramaturge 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / EK 9; or maybe Eldritch Scion Magus 8 / People's Oath Paladin 2 / Sublime Chord 1 / EK 9.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Hey, it's probably going to take a while for it to see play as I just got robbed of phone and laptop, but I could use the distraction so here goes.
I was building a character for an Egyptian-themed campaign and decided to go for Magus, as I've always wanted to play one. For race, an eagle reflavored Strix, a nice Rá connection.
I am thinking of going for a DEX build, maybe even to help a bit as scout (as I can fly). There's probably going to be a fair bit of exploration and RP, so I am also thinking of ways to contribute there too.
For now, I've got (rolled stats, pre-lv up adjustment, the +2 are racials):
STR 13
DEX 16+2
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 12
CHA 12-2
Lv 6 Strix (Dayguard) Bladebound Hexcrafter Magus.
Feats: Intensify Spell, Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, Deadly Agility (B)
Traits: Metamagic Master or Magic Lineage for Shocking Grasp, ???
Arcana: Arcane Accuracy
Hex: ???
Thoughts? Suggestions? I've got "about 10k GP" to spend as I last heard it from the GM, and MiC is in play.
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TotallyNotEvil
I am thinking of going for a DEX build, maybe even to help a bit as scout (as I can fly). There's probably going to be a fair bit of exploration and RP, so I am also thinking of ways to contribute there too.
If you want to help with scouting and exploration and RP, maybe you shouldn't head for the damage-optimized "spam shocking grasp all day" build?
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Re: Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
If you want to help with scouting and exploration and RP, maybe you shouldn't head for the damage-optimized "spam shocking grasp all day" build?
I do want to play a Magus, tho :smalltongue:
I'm thinking of adding Stealth through a Trait, and still undecided on the Hex.
But I figured it wouldn't hurt to see if the playground had any neat ideas for feats or something which I've missed.
This GM's combats are all pretty brutal.