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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
While I don't know what to think about not closing donations, at least in the card game's case I think the wrong really is on Evertide. The reason is that Evertide was involved in another Kickstarter project, "Mr Card Game", based on the Kingdom of Loathing game. In this case, too, the Kickstarter was made by Evertide, not the IP owner. The campaign was funded, the game was produced, and it was shipped in bulk to the US (a mistake). And there it remained; international backers never got theirs, with the exception of some who gave more money, because (according to Evertide) it would have been too expensive to mail them over there.
On the 19th of July 2014, Evertide communicated that, in an attempt to gain enough money to send the boxes, they were laying off their people and closing their office. This was a message sent to backers; the public campaign update simply signaled a chance of people in charge of communication.
By then, it had been a year since the Goblins Kickstarter had been completed.
From February to September 2014, Goblins was on hiatus. Unfortunately, the Kickstarter page having been taken off, I can't see what the last updates were, or whether the backers had already begun to simmer. But it doesn't surprise me that it took so long for the Goblins blog to start showing some reactions.
And, if Goblins really broke up with Blind Ferret because wanted a different publisher for the card game... well... damn.
About Tempts Fate, I don't really care about it. It was the result of Patreon not yet being a thing. The idea with webcomics back then was that the comic was free, and you got paid if you did something more than the usual. Once Goblins got stuck with very a very low update rate, however, it would have been absurd to drop the main product for a comparatively uninteresting side story which already had a mandated happy ending. Sure, it's bad business practice, but it also was the result of a concept that was flawed from the start.
Evertide was probably killed by not doing their logistics right, but also by giving too many giveaways. OotS has had a similar problem with giveaways. I think it wasn't uncommon. I don't really think the guy run away with the money, although the whole thing really was not OK. I mean, why didn't he just claim bankruptcy?
About the card game, the page on the Goblins site was updated a few times after it was posted. By now, it looks like it just needs implementation on some sort of online system; probably a large and costly undertaking. But the text also was clear on it being "in no way a guarantee or a promise".
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vinyadan
On the 19th of July 2014, Evertide communicated that, in an attempt to gain enough money to send the boxes, they were laying off their people and closing their office. This was a message sent to backers; the public campaign update simply signaled a chance of people in charge of communication.
By then, it had been a year since the Goblins Kickstarter had been completed.
From February to September 2014, Goblins was on hiatus. Unfortunately, the Kickstarter page having been taken off, I can't see what the last updates were, or whether the backers had already begun to simmer. But it doesn't surprise me that it took so long for the Goblins blog to start showing some reactions.
...
About the card game, the page on the Goblins site was updated a few times after it was posted. By now, it looks like it just needs implementation on some sort of online system; probably a large and costly undertaking. But the text also was clear on it being "in no way a guarantee or a promise".
First comment in the G:AR Q&A thread is May 16th. Kickstarter was launched 5 days later, on May 21. Kickstarters last 30 days, so it ended on June 20th.
Innuendo, (also known as Brad, one of the two game designers), the person that was the main face of the game on the Goblins forum made his last post in the thread on June 28th. LESS THAN TWO WEEKS LATER.
After that point. There was a lot of silence.
On Oct 28th, a comment on a rule rewrite. No official mention of this in the forum. No response to questions asked. That means 4 months of silence, except for one post on the kickstarter that another poster linked to. All communication with backers has basically been thrown out.
Given how active Innuendo was before/during the kickstarter. I'd imagine that people would have started have been worrying before this point.
The thread just died after that mention. No complaints, no mentions. Bad things cannot be discussed on the Goblins forum, so no one said anything in public.
https://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtop...=448&start=100
Quote:
Unofficial G:AR Update
Posted January 23, 2014 at 2:24 pm
"When is Goblins: Alternate Realities coming out?" Short answer... Everyone who backed, should have the game by June. Longer answer... I remember testing the G:AR card game with Evertide Games at Gencon last year. I was so nervous that people would hate the game or walk away bored or worst of all, not even show up to play it. However, I was delighted to find that not only did our player spots quickly fill up, but we had to create extra seats, which also filled up. Everybody enjoyed the game and many of the players wanted to play again.
I was very happy. However, Richard James (the main designer of the game) wasn't as excited. He explained to me that while watching people play G:AR, he'd noticed a number of unbalanced rules that could be exploited by players. Some of these details were easily fixed, but some of them went deep into the heart of the game and would require some hefty redesigns. Well those redesigns are finished and now it's just a matter of finishing the final details, printing out and shipping the massive amount of boxes and loot. I'm really proud of the quality, talent and amount of work that's been pumped into this project and I honestly can't wait for you guys to play it. As a thank you for your patience, Evertide is adding a set of Not-Walter character and action cards to the game for all the backers. If you have any other questions, feel free to send me a tweet and I'll answer what I can. As always, thanks for reading. ~Thunt
On January 23rd. Elli made a post to the people asking her about it. The creators of the game are no where to be seen. She is now the face of G:AR's public relations. She clearly knew something was wrong at this point, otherwise, why make an unofficial announcement?
On the 19th of July 2014, Evertide communicated that, in an attempt to gain enough money to send the boxes, they were laying off their people and closing their office. This was a message sent to backers; the public campaign update simply signaled a chance of people in charge of communication.
I actually don't know where you got that information from, and I'm not sure how to confirm it myself... I'll assume you are correct though. It certainly fits in with the fact that all contact with Elli was cut around the same time.
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Lowtide - Update For Goblins: Alternate Realities
Posted December 3, 2014 at 9:13 am
In July of 2013, Evertide Games and Goblins successfully Kickstarted a Goblins card game/board game called Goblins: Alternate Realities. We asked for $30,000 and received over $182,000 dollars (if you include the $5,300 received through Paypal donations). Well, when I say "we" successfully Kickstarted it, I mean you. It was done with your money and support, after all. Since then, nothing has happened. No one has received their stretch goal rewards and no one has gotten a copy of the game. Over 2200 people generously handed over their money and so now, a lot of people are understandably, angry. So what's going on? Well here's everything that I know on the subject... I haven't heard from Richard James, the head of Evertide Games in four months.
I've been trying to contact him any way I can, including contacting a few other people that know him.
...
“Why did you take this long to reach this conclusion and make this announcement? Four months is a long time.” This sounds so 'excusey', but I've been going through a weird, breakdown kinda thing (words like “weird” and “kinda”, downplay the whole thing and make it seem more quirky and less like a disorder). Four months ago, I was just starting to see my psychiatrist and trying to figure out which meds worked for me and which didn't. I was filled with so much anxiety, I couldn't open my email or answer the phone. Doing business of any kind tasted like panic. Facing concepts like losing $200,000 of money that didn't belong to me, was way out of my abilities.
December 3rd (over 4 months after the project was officially canceled), is the point where Elli started actually checking up on things, and she mentioned that it had been 4 months since the last time she had gotten any information in person about the game.
I'll point out that problems were emerging long before the point that had the kickstarter announce it wasn't creating anything. She also was still making blog posts. She Posted on
-September 15, 2014 (which she also claimed was a relaunch of the comic)
-September 20, 2014
-November 23, 2014 at 8:09 pm
Until, finally, she directly dealt with the kickstarter on Dec 3rd. I'd imagine she had also been staying on twitter, although I can't confirm that. Still, Elli kicked things into high gear after that point.
Seems like I misremembered that rant/apology post. I thought that happened at the same time but it happened on May 8th, 2013, which was two months before the cancelation of the project. I really hate that post, but I made an untrue statement, so I retract it.
Quote:
Lowtide Update
Posted June 11, 2015 at 3:44 pm
...
It's a slow process and it's slowed down the amount of time spend drawing Goblins. I can say for certain, that it will definitely be made available for everyone to play online. Programs like Tabletop Simulator will make that possible. As for G:AR becoming a physical game that people can hold in their hands... I'm doing everything I can, but it's still a big question mark. You can contact me on Twitter for whatever you need (Click here). Thanks
I have tabletop simulator myself. It's not all that hard to make stuff for it.
I don't really know what "this is not a promise" is supposed to be for on the website's card game page. She clearly made a promise. She said she would make it available for tabletop simulator, at least, and that is MUCH easier than making a physical product. I can also check to see if it was done. If it was done. I think that would count as a really good effort on her part.
*checks the workshop*
*searches "goblins" card game*
https://steamcommunity.com/workshop/...textsearch&p=1
Nope. Nothing. What is the hold up? We were told the game is basically done, or so I'm told. Heck, with all the information on the website, it seems like even a fan could have done the work by now.
I hold people to what they say they will do. That's not an unreasonable thing. If you don't intend to do something, then don't say it. If you realise that you can't do something you said you would, say you can't. No one asked for the temps fate comic, but it was promised, so I expect some update on that. If it's abandoned say so, if it's going to be finished, then when? How many years do you want to keep people wondering? That isn't fair to anyone.
The thing is, Elli is perfectly willing to do stuff, if there is enough pressure to do so. It's not wrong to hold people accountable for what they say in an effort to get what you were told.
EDIT: I don't have any experience with photoshop so it would be a lot harder for me than others that even have a basic use of that kind of program. I've done next to no image editing, so I'm not the best choice.
However, if I wanted to make a basic recreation, all I would need to do is the following.
1. Copy the cards that are provided on the website.
2. Divide the compilation images into seperate images.
3. Upload to the game (makes a test card)
Yea, I could copy and paste all the cards into the game, and then upload the game to the workshop. I don't even need permission or anything either. That's the beauty of workshop, I can just load it myself. So, certainly doable. I wonder why no one has done it.
Personally, I'm not inclined to do Elli any favours. It would be a lot of work, for something I don't want to play. Plus, I'm sure it would be a subpar presentation. There is a difference between doing something, and doing it well. Besides, I'm not upset about the card game not existing, I'm mad over making promises that are not kept. Me fulfilling a promise someone else made kinda goes against that. Like, why don't I draw the last Temps Fate page then? Same answer, not my responsibility.
Even if I did, I doubt she would thank me for it. After all, she's ignored people that are much bigger fans than I am when they showed off their work to her. We've butted heads to often. I'm not the kind of fan she wants to associate with.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
why don't you volunteer to upload it to tabletop sim then? get on twitter and ask Elli (or probably Danielle would be better) directly if they'd be willing to let you convert the cards from image files into an actual playable game?
Assuming there's nothing else that needs to be added, they may take it. at the very least you may be able to get some more information on it.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tomaO2
I have tabletop simulator myself. It's not all that hard to make stuff for it.
It is if you're a perfectionist, as Ellipsis very much is.
Quote:
The thing is, Elli is perfectly willing to do stuff, if there is enough pressure to do so. It's not wrong to hold people accountable for what they say in an effort to get what you were told.
The first part of this is an unhealthy attitude for a fan to have towards a creator, and the second part is empty moralizing. You don't hold people accountable by pressuring them, or criticizing them, you hold them accountable by bypassing their authority in favor of a higher authority. Say, if a boss is abusing an employee, you can hold him accountable by reporting it to a manager higher up. Unless you count the police, and I don't, there is no higher authority here. Not only can you not hold Ellipsis accountable in this situation, there is no such thing as holding her accountable. What you call by this name is something purely psychological, a strong feeling you act on. I won't speculate. I'll just say that, whatever this is that you're putting so much effort into, it's not a matter of morality.
Quote:
I'm mad over making promises that are not kept.
There it is. Yes, it's wrong to break a promise. However, if have to perform a deep, thorough investigation to support your idea that a promise has been broken -- if you have to perform that investigation to support the idea that a promise was made at all -- it starts to look like empty moralizing. I'll back up some.
Quote:
She clearly made a promise. She said she would make it available for tabletop simulator, at least, and that is MUCH easier than making a physical product.
Saying that you will do something is not making a promise. It just isn't. To make a promise is to say "I promise that..." or otherwise make the promise explicit. Otherwise, you're just stating an intention, a goal or a plan. Stating a goal is not making a promise, even if you state that goal in a very confident or absolute way.
If you're passionate about something, as you clearly are about the comic, it's fine to feel betrayed or devastated by the turns it takes or the actions the creator makes. What's not fine is to believe that those feelings come from a matter of right and wrong.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
I'm really not sure we want to throw the "perfectionist" label on someone who has basically never actually managed to meet a single obligation they make for themselves. Especially not as an excuse. You'd think a self proclaimed perfectionist would actually make a little more effort into actually doing the things they say they'll do.
Full stop. Thunt/El has taken money several times for things and then not delivered on them. Sometimes because they make poor decisions (card game/animation). Sometimes because they simply don't want to bother with them any more (Tempts fate).
You simply don't get to take money in exchange for promising goods or services and just not deliver them. Especially for reasons like incompetence or sheer unwillingness to keep your word. It doesn't matter if you think it's understandable that they're too incompetent to get the job done, or that you think it's understandable that they don't want to finish the projects they took payment for. The fact of the matter is that when you take someone's money for something, you have a moral and legal obligation to provide that something, or else you're a thief. At best a con-(wo)man. Let's not act like it's shocking or absurd that people aren't crazy about those who steal their money. El deserves every bit of criticism they get for this stuff.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anteros
I'm really not sure we want to throw the "perfectionist" label on someone who has basically never actually managed to meet a single obligation they make for themselves. Especially not as an excuse. You'd think a self proclaimed perfectionist would actually make a little more effort into actually doing the things they say they'll do.
Whenever I see perfectionist - I'm reminded of the old quote "Perfect is the enemy of good".
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Anteros, right now I don't have the emotional resources to debate multiple people at once, so I'm going to await Toma's response and focus on that. Your accusation has subtle but important distinctions with those of Toma, such as the fact that you accuse her of thievery, where Toma accused her of breaking promises. Thus, responding to you would require a lot of extra effort, which I don't feel I can provide right now. I'm writing this so you know I'm not simply disregarding you.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
my angle on Thunt/Eli is quite simple:
Some people are just natural Bad Luck Magnets.
No matter how many resources are thown at them in the shape of money, time, effort or whatever
some people are just unable to come out on tops.
The results of Thunt/Elis projects look like they are just that.
Fascinating to watch, but nothing I‘d ever throw money at.
No accusations of intent, laziness or whatever required;
just the realization that it’s going down the drain no matter what.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
I don't think it's bad luck, I think it's poor decisions that do her in.
And also a tendency towards airing her dirty laundry in public. I read a few webcomics. Goblins is just so much drama. The number of times I just visited the Front page looking for a new strip and was greeted by her private problems is beyond counting for me. Toma did a great job there, I mean it!
And this was there from the beginning. The first Goblins Thread was started by herself on this board, and explicitly mentioned how hard it is on her to support her family by now doing the comic full time. Some stuff about treading water with the kids on the shoulders. So thanks everyone for reading, along those lines.
I get why Toma is upset, it's not just broken promises, or lies, it's being held hostage emotionally by the author of a work you are trying to follow, because you like it for what it is. This alternating between sycophantic gratitude and unabashed soliciting. And she has made sure that the comic is inseparable from her private drama. Not simply because he is working trough stuff from his past (his mom's, actually), but because from technical side you can't escape. Come for the comic, stay for the slice of life drama style blogging.
I think Dragonturtle is going through hell on a daily basis, only to become part of goblins Front page a few years down the line. I really want to read the comic, in spite of think it's not very good, but that is a piece of work.
Fascinating to watch though, I#ll concede that point.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
I have never read anything from her unrelated to the comic except second hand in this thread, honestly it isn't all that hard to separate the drama. Engaging with it is an active decision you make each time you read the posts in question and I recommend you stop choosing to engage if engaging bothers you Daywalker.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ibrinar
I have never read anything from her unrelated to the comic except second hand in this thread so honestly it isn't all that hard to separate the drama. Engaging with it is an active decision you make each time you read the posts in question and I recommend you stop choosing to engage if engaging bothers you Daywalker.
I was referring to what she does with her landing page. Right now there is a donation drive. In the past this page even featured a blog, where he (she was a he then) would write in detail about the trouble with her ex-wife and son. This is the space where she used to communicate with his fans about the comic, and since I'm a very fast reader, I've often picked up the gist before I knew. There also used to be a link to his twitter, that also showed tweets and where there was enough drama of its own.
I haven't talked about the time of his breakdown yet, when he "quit" his job, effectively telling his readers they were causing him all this anguish, while simultaneously using them as therapists. He chose to announce that with a nightmarish drawing, rendering some kind of broken puppet or something in lovingly morbid detail. This is one point where everyone reading was concerned, there are others. If you only ever encountered drama in this thread you have a very specific way of reading or weren't there from early on.
I chose to stop it, but that doesn't change the fact that she tries to shove it down anyone's throat any Chance she gets, sometimes succeding with me too, and it will always be with the same melange of tear jerking reality tv mentality. Also, I've been reading the comic for a long time, and Toma's post hit a nerve.
In effect, we were talking about what like and don't like about the comic, and the point is that to me this drama is part of that discussion. As it seemingly is to others, too.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Daywalker, the same thing applies as I said to Anteros. You make different points, and I don't have the wherewithal to address those too; sorry.
Now that I've slept on it I may have done half of Toma's work for them. The things Toma listed aren't promises, because vehemence is not explicitness. However, Kickstarters are explicitly promises. I figured they were other people's promises, though -- the scam artist for the cards, the animators for the pilot -- so their violation doesn't count as promises broken by Ellipsis. Ellipsis gave them the right to make promises in her name, foolishly.
HOWEVER. If I authorize another person to make a promise in my name, does that then count as my promise? At first I thought, "Of course not." After mulling over it some, I'm no longer sure.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarchic Fox
Daywalker, the same thing applies as I said to Anteros. You make different points, and I don't have the wherewithal to address those too; sorry.
Now that I've slept on it I may have done half of Toma's work for them. The things Toma listed aren't promises, because vehemence is not explicitness. However, Kickstarters are explicitly promises. I figured they were other people's promises, though -- the scam artist for the cards, the animators for the pilot -- so their violation doesn't count as promises broken by Ellipsis. Ellipsis gave them the right to make promises in her name, foolishly.
HOWEVER. If I authorize another person to make a promise in my name, does that then count as my promise? At first I thought, "Of course not." After mulling over it some, I'm no longer sure.
That's not a promise in someone else's name, though. We're talking about a common deal wherever intellectual properties are involved.
For example, I write a book about Supercows, and then a publishing house named CowTide tells me that they want to publish my book, so we sign a contract where:
- I authorise them to publish my book (I give them publishing rights over my IP)
- They accept to publish it, and grant me payment (e.g. royalties)
- We make it clear that, if they do not publish within two years, the IP publishing rights will revert back to me (a normal thing to do, by the way).
My mum is very proud and really wants to read the book. However, after two years, CowTide has not yet published. The rights revert to me.
Does my mum have a right to be mad at me?
Well, no, not at all. CowTide didn't keep their end of the bargain. I did everything I was supposed to.
From this point of view, it's very good that it was Evertide doing the Kickstarter. There's no confusion about who got the money.
Evertide made a promise in their own name. If Hasbro promised to make a line of toys about the life of John Cena, and then the toys failed to materialise, I don't think anyone would accuse John Cena.
But here the problem isn't even that Evertide promised to create the game and then didn't. No one expects a firm to stalwartly adhere to their promises*, if it would send them out of business. The problem is that Evertide didn't send any refund and instead disappeared into the night with the money that had already paid for making the product. And this is a double damage, because there is a loss of face for Goblins, and it also means that hundreds of thousands of dollars that could have gone into Goblins merchandise are now living in a new home instead. In Indie land, this is huge.
Now, a creator is always supposed to drum up attention towards whatever new thing is being done with the IP. Publishing houses generally expect the author to do so, especially when they are very small. You are to show the company doing the product as a shining jewel of professionalism to your fans, because you are supposed to trust the company (why to choose them, otherwise?) and to convince your fans to pay.
Now, this is normally based around the principle that there is a product. If something that doesn't depend on the IP owner sucks, then it's not the author's fault. For example, someone else publishes my book, but the binding is superbad. People like my book, but they don't like the physical book. That's not my fault. Haspro makes little hazelnut-sized heads of my characters, but, instead of many different cows, they all look like Silvester Stallone? That's Haspro's fault, not mine.
However, if I persevere and keep doing stuff with Haspro and I keep getting horrid results, so that the toys for the following book don't look like Stallone's head, because now they look like Stallone's crotch instead, then people will start saying, "yea, that's his fault for sticking with them, I'm not buying this crap" (unless they are collectors). And this will happen in both cases, if I really made a second contract, or if the first contract already foresaw that they would make the toys for both books.
I really don't remember where I was going with this, but I guess that there are many shades of responsibility, and that crowd mentality also has its own, and it's a pity not to let people who want to give you money do what they want, because they feel let down and moderately angry.
*Here I want to distinguish between promises (like, "I promise..."), contracts, and statements of intentions. A firm should never make direct promises ("I promise I will deliver the book!"), instead it should make unspecified promises ("we promise our costumers that we will make every effort to keep to our obligations"). Contracts are always binding, we all know that, except in cases regulated by law. Statements of intention are how firms should announce new projects ("we are proud to announce...", not "we promise...").
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daywalker1983
I haven't talked about the time of his breakdown yet, when he "quit" his job, effectively telling his readers they were causing him all this anguish, while simultaneously using them as therapists. He chose to announce that with a nightmarish drawing, rendering some kind of broken puppet or something in lovingly morbid detail. This is one point where everyone reading was concerned, there are others. If you only ever encountered drama in this thread you have a very specific way of reading or weren't there from early on.
I'd forgotten about that post. It really bothered me. It's like a mix of wanting to abandon responsibility for her own poor decision making while simultaneously attempting to create as much of an explanation for those poor decisions as humanly possible. It makes sense in theory - if you can't handle the criticism of the minority then ignore them and do things your own way. But don't write a novel whose sole purpose is attempting to pander to that same minority for approval. Hell, I'd say step 1 is don't do that.
@Anarchic Fox
Don't feel obligated to respond or anything - I know you've said the conversation coming from multiple angles is more than you have energy for, but I wanted to say something about your post that was directed towards toma02 - specifically that I don't understand the point you're trying to make. You seem to understand what he's saying but are focusing on pedantic details to try and undermine those points rather than responding to them. You don't have a message - you seem to just want to argue because he chose a term you disagree with. Far as I know there's no rule that says a promise has to start with a declaration of being a promise - that seems like a very strange argument to make to me.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
I also don't care if people don't respond to my posts. Certainly not everything I say merits a response.
For me, I don't give Thunt/El the benefit of the doubt I might extend to some others for a few reasons. Partially it's because it just keeps happening. If every project you touch has the same problem, at some point you have to look at the common link and stop making excuses.
The other reason is that we know that she's perfectly willing to just give up on things she took money for simply because she doesn't want to do them. There's absolutely no reason to not finish things like Tempt's Fate when you've already taken the money for it. She just doesn't feel like it, and doesn't feel like keeping obligations is a priority. That's a problem for me. I'm not willing to extend the benefit of the doubt in other scenarios because she's already lost that privilege.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Typewriter
Far as I know there's no rule that says a promise has to start with a declaration of being a promise - that seems like a very strange argument to make to me.
Performative language is an interest of mine. If you're curious about its academic theory, the best place to start is How to Do Things with Words by J. L. Austin, although Grice and Cavell have also done valuable work in the field. To summarize about two whole chapters of that book, yes, a promise has to be explicit in some way. Saying "I promise that..." or following something with "That is a promise." are common ways. You could also ask somebody "Is that a promise?" after they make a bold declaration, and if they say yes, then it's a promise. (And if they say no, you know they're full of it.) You can also use related terms, like "vow" or "swear" or various legal terms. However, omitting that explicitness means something isn't a promise, no matter how emphatic, decisive, vehement, or unconditional it is.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Right, so if someone asks "can I borrow some money, I'll pay you back next week", it's okay for him to then say. Oh, but I didn't say "I promise to pay you back next week, so it's okay to not do so".
I don't think so. It's not like people can ask for clarification either. If Elli says she will do something, no one is in a good position to ask "is this is a promise"? Shall we ignore Bethesda and all those ridiculous Fallout 76 claims? I don't know if they specifically said they promised this would happen or not but people expected it all the same. There are countless examples like this. I just don't think this issue worth fighting over.
If you are just explaining how language works, than that is interesting enough, I suppose. On the other hand, if you are trying to use that as an argument as to why Elli didn't promise what we thought she did, then it doesn't really work. Anyone that feels like they were let down won't be persuaded by an argument like this. Arguing on a technicality like whether or not Elli made an actual promise just feels like needless rules lawyering.
...
Okay, Anarchic Fox, I don't think it's especially good for me to keep arguing about this stuff, so I try to limit myself to just one or two replies after I make critical posts. If I can't make my case, in that amount of time, with whomever I am arguing with, then I probably can't do it at all. A hard, hard lesson for me to learn was to just let things go. If what I say resonates with others, then a good discussion can come out of it, if most argue against, then it's important to not continue to harp on about it, since that just upsets everyone.
And I don't mind of other people want to pick up my points and make a response for me, I consider that to be great. I see some good replies in the forum right now, so thanks for that! I appreciate the people that are backing me up.
Still, you mentioned several times you want my thoughts, so I'll give them. I don't think any of this will change your mind or anything. But here is how I see it.
Just to note, I'd rather not reply again. I know you will point out what you think I am wrong on, but I think it's better if I take a step back for a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarchic Fox
It is if you're a perfectionist, as Ellipsis very much is.
I won't deny that her art has consistently gotten more difficult to draw, and she keeps making more work for herself. Forgath is absurdly detailed. I also watched her back in the day on livestream, so I do have an idea that it takes a lot of work. Does that make her a perfectionist though?
I think a much better example of a true perfectionist is the webcomic, Earthsong. This is a comic story that was rewritten from scratch THREE TIMES.
As Crystal Yates improved, she would look back at her old drawings and say "not good enough", and then restart it. She would then delete her old work. That's a true perfectionist. Honestly, I liked the art from the second version better than the final work.
For Elli, I dunno, after watching her for so long, it feels like she uses perfectionism as an excuse.
Even back in book 2, she was always talking about how her art improvements meant that she couldn't update like she used to, and her book 1 stuff came pretty fast, and it's not like the art was horrible. Yes, there was a learning curve, but even midway through book 1, it was pretty decent. Even the earliest pages weren't really bad, or anything.
Still, she got a lot of support with the "perfectionist" argument, especially since she was still working full time as a... casino blackjack dealer, I believe. A better than decent job to have. Perfectionism was also the excuse with the Temps Fate stuff. The original fundraiser was very simple art, whereas the last, unfinished, one she went to the mat for, until she burned out and gave up. When she created the Temps Fate game, she said it wasn't good enough, AFTER SHE WAS ALREADY TAKING MONEY FOR IT, so she created a new system, that ultimately never happened.
She also said, time, and time again, back in the day, that her perfectionism wouldn't allow her to do single page updates. That was literally her reason for not doing that, until she finally gave up, and ended up doing single page updates anyway. So why the hell did I have to get chewed out by everyone for telling her to do it?
To me, Elli is more of a person that likes to reach for things beyond her grasp, fail at doing so, and then make excuses, while getting mad at anyone that complains about it, only to go off and sulk for awhile, maybe trying to ignore that the issue was even ever was a thing. She is never satisfied with her best, it has to be better than her best, and when it's not, she gives up on it. She also seems to have issues working with others, as was seen by going through two assistant artists and the deal that fell through with LFG Productions. I a lot of the issues for that boiled down to not working on keeping an update schedule too.
Keep in mind too, this isn't a hobby, this is literally her job. A job she gets paid for in Patreon. A thousand bucks+ for every page posted. Everyone was excited when she quit, but the update uptick never really panned out, and I just don't get how the hell she has been supporting herself all these years with such a low output. Like, she doesn't even have books to sell like OOTS does. She only ever made two physical books of Goblins. There should be 5 or so out by now.
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The first part of this is an unhealthy attitude for a fan to have towards a creator, and the second part is empty moralizing. You don't hold people accountable by pressuring them, or criticizing them, you hold them accountable by bypassing their authority in favor of a higher authority.
Another way of saying fan is customer, and customers are supposed to be catered to. Even when they are making unreasonable demands. Elli is trying to sell a product, Gobins, to the public. Elli is also the boss, so it's only natural to complain to Elli (the boss) if you feel something is substandard in the product or service.
If I can't criticise someone for failing to keep promises, then I also can't praise someone for doing the same. Say what you might about Dominic Deegan, but that comic never missed an update. Say what you want about the Giant, but when he did his kickstarter, he made sure that the books, the main thing he promised, was delivered. You can quibble that various bonus things were not finished, like some sponsored comic stories, but the important stuff got the focus. He also kept a very good chart that listed every single promise he made for that kickstarter and what was, and what was not finished.
I definitely do not regret giving money for the OOTS kickstarter. Rich showed himself worthy of backing, and I would say so to anyone. Elli doesn't have a good record on that though, and if she sponsored/started another kickstarter today, I would absolutely tell everyone to not give a dime to it.
Praise where it is earned, and criticism where it is not. I'm not going on about rape culture that got so much hot water back in the day. This comicmix contest just blew up with arguments.
https://www.comicmix.com/2012/04/06/...rt-vs-goblins/
Also, how ironic is it that people complained again and again on the art. Just a constant refrain. I'll admit though, Gunnerkrigg Court has some images that are absolutely gorgeous in a way that Goblins has never managed to replicate. Goblins is an ugly sort of world.
This incident was way back, months before OOTS even had a forum on goblins. Woman was totally reaching for things to complain about. I didn't care about that stuff, so I never bring it up. I also don't really care that Goblins, today, deals a lot with body dysmorphia. It's not really preaching at me, unlike, say, Sinfest is. So I think it's fine. I'll judge the story on it's own merits, and not mix that with the Author's personal views.
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There it is. Yes, it's wrong to break a promise. However, if have to perform a deep, thorough investigation to support your idea that a promise has been broken -- if you have to perform that investigation to support the idea that a promise was made at all -- it starts to look like empty moralizing. I'll back up some.
I'm a little confused by the wording here, but if you are saying that I'm spending too much time looking for stuff the complain about then I disagree.
It's literally written in her blog. I don't need to investigate anything. I read all this stuff as it was being promised. I sometimes need reminders, so I go back to refresh my memory, but I was literally there for EVERYTHING. Every broken promise, every mental breakdown, and all I needed to do with read the main page of the Goblins website.
I'm not putting the level of work you think I am into this.
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Saying that you will do something is not making a promise. It just isn't. To make a promise is to say "I promise that..." or otherwise make the promise explicit. Otherwise, you're just stating an intention, a goal or a plan. Stating a goal is not making a promise, even if you state that goal in a very confident or absolute way.
If you're passionate about something, as you clearly are about the comic, it's fine to feel betrayed or devastated by the turns it takes or the actions the creator makes. What's not fine is to believe that those feelings come from a matter of right and wrong.
As I said in the top of my post, I don't care to argue the quibbles on what is a promise or what is a statement of intent. That is not an argument that can win me over. I don't feel like I'm nitpicking. My biggest criticisms are on honest promises, and things that had actual money exchange hands on.
Missing scheduled updates is more of an annoyance then something I consider really bad, but at the same time, why would a person keep telling people they want a weekly update schedule and consistently not deliver? So, it's still worth of criticism, but it's more of a reminder when included with other things that are being more annoying. That sort of thing is common. If someone is mad about X, they will likely also bring up Y and Z.
This time, the catalyst for my complaining is the new update on the Goblins animation, which is still nowhere near finished. In fact, the IndieGoGo crowdfunder seems to be begging for more money, offering discounts on bonus items so that they can get a bit more cash for the project. Combined this with the fact that she's still running a Go Fund Me that is currently at $21,118, and counting.
Both these things involve money. I don't think anyone can argue that creating the Goblins Trailer is not a promise, and it is, at least, rather inconsiderate to not thank the people that donated so you can get the facial surgery you asked for, while bragging about your new face on twitter. She got the money she asked for, did the surgery, so why hasn't there been an update? Where is the gratitude?
Why the heck is there a link to her transgender twitter on her comic anyway? Why does she want to give her readers such ready access to her "personal" twitter. I'm glad that she did make a seperate twitter (which is honestly better than some comic artists can manage), and we are warned that this is her transgendered twitter, so I not truly upset about it. That said, I just feel like it shouldn't be a link at all on her comic blog. It's just another small example of how she has real issues with separating work from life.
I complain about that, and say that this is another example in a long line of bad behaviors, which I will talk about.
If any of these issues would be corrected. If Elli started updating weekly, then I wouldn't complain about it. I'm perfectly willing to forgive offenses. If Temps Fate was done, I would say thanks and stop bringing it up. Same with the trailer.
I would honestly like to have more positive things to say. I really would.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Thank you for responding! I will concede right away that you know far more about the comic and its history than I do. I have no idea what goes on in its forums or Twitter accounts. I did support some of the Tempts Fate drives, but none of the Kickstarters, because I felt all three were silly. So I am drawing on a much narrower slice of information than you are.
I felt bad after my post for feeling provoked, and writing without sufficient consideration, but I commit to things I say, even when I say them unwisely. Please be aware that I prefer to write in a nonlinear pattern, so I will be addressing your points out of order. If my intent veers from what it was originally, that's because there wasn't much intent there at all, and I'm trying to make good out of an impulsive, unwise reply. I live up to my username.
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Originally Posted by tomaO2
Just to note, I'd rather not reply again. I know you will point out what you think I am wrong on, but I think it's better if I take a step back for a bit.
Okay, I'll try to make my points cogently, without expectation of further replies.
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Does that make her a perfectionist though?
A perfectionist is not someone who produces perfect work. A perfectionist is someone whose art suffers from their desire for perfection. I'm a perfectionist too, which is why I've only managed to produce a dozen comic strips in my entire lifetime. Now, just after this you started talking about "true perfectionism," which might be a thing, but for me "perfectionism" is a wholly negative term.
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It's literally written in her blog. I don't need to investigate anything. I read all this stuff as it was being promised. I sometimes need reminders, so I go back to refresh my memory, but I was literally there for EVERYTHING. ...I'm not putting the level of work you think I am into this.
Oh. I would have had to do deep digging to find the stuff you did, so I assumed it required considerable effort. I admit that's my mistake.
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This time, the catalyst for my complaining is the new update on the Goblins animation, which is still nowhere near finished.
I have no idea what's going over there, so I can't address it.
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Why the heck is there a link to her transgender twitter on her comic anyway?
In queer communities there is the notion of visibility. Letting strangers know that you are transgender gives them a (hopefully positive) example of a transgender person, where before they may have only had stereotypes and boogiemen. Similarly, sharing personal gender struggles may help others empathize with those struggles. Some queer people outright claim that there is a moral responsibility to be visible, to not hide who you are. I don't agree, myself.
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Right, so if someone asks "can I borrow some money, I'll pay you back next week", it's okay for him to then say. Oh, but I didn't say "I promise to pay you back next week, so it's okay to not do so".
No, it's not okay. I mentioned in the post two above this one (please read it too for additional information) that there are various other terms and phrases that also invoke a promise. "I'll pay you back" is one such phrase, which is why "payback" has such a rich meaning. However, the example you gave that provoked me was this one:
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I don't really know what "this is not a promise" is supposed to be for on the website's card game page. She clearly made a promise. She said she would make it available for tabletop simulator, at least, and that is MUCH easier than making a physical product.
"This is not a promise" means that it is not a promise. Not only did Ellipsis not use language that invokes a promise, she explicitly disavowed its being a promise. Just as you make a promise by explicitly indicating that it is a promise (or equivalent), you can make something not a promise by explicitly disavowing it.
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As I said in the top of my post, I don't care to argue the quibbles on what is a promise or what is a statement of intent. That is not an argument that can win me over.
I'm not sure I've ever won anyone over with my arguments. However, hopefully I will explain enough to make you see that these distinctions are not quibbles, but part of an important and often neglected aspect of language. Chomsky split the study of language into phonetics, morphemics, syntax and semantics. Performativity, which is what you do with words, should be the fifth item on this list, because what you do with words cannot be reduced to what you mean by them.
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Another way of saying fan is customer, and customers are supposed to be catered to.
This is untrue. There are ethical and unethical ways to behave towards one's fans, true. I believe the Erfworld guy behaved unethically towards his fans, in that he treated their vibrant fanfiction culture as a resource to be exploited for his own profit. I'm on the fence about whether Ellipsis has behaved unethically, or just unwisely and unhealthily. However, the ethics of a business in relationship to its customer is entirely different than the ethics of a creator towards their fans. Just look at the fact that, while a customer might steal from a business, a creator might (if Anteros is correct) steal from their fans.
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I'm perfectly willing to forgive offenses.
Are you sure about this? By which I mean, have there been other occasions on which someone has offended you this much, and you've forgiven them? I had some strife with the creator of Nature of Nature's Art, because he had a Patreon commitment he was not honoring. I could not get the hint across in private, so I fought him in public. He removed the Patreon commitment, so I accomplished my task. However, I am still dealing with the guilt of how far I went in that fight. The point of this story is your passion as a fan may not be as easy to resolve as you think.
It doesn't happen so much in this last reply, but in the previous ones I saw you practicing telepathy on Ellipsis. Here are some examples... well, ****. I just went looking for examples, and it was other people who pretended to know what is going on in her mind. This was one of those times when a thread blurs together in my mind. Sorry about that. However, I did find this:
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The fact is, I hate this comic in a way that I can only feel because I used to love it.
Yeah, that's clear now. Hopefully my words here will do a slight amount to turn you away from that hatred.
I've thought recently about the relationship of fan to creator. Over at NofNA I wrote this:
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Originally Posted by Anarchic Fox
When I was young, I thought I would be the one with fans, and that my struggle would be to treat them with patience, firmness and understanding without hiding from them or exploiting them as most famous creators do. But no, it turns out it's the other way around. I'm the fan, and my task (outside physics) is to provide intellectual support for others.
Note that distinction. I don't think Ellipsis is one of the creators that exploits fans, I think she's one that hides from them, despite her visibility.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Completely unrelated to the above, here's a line from the current Goblins comic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goblins: Life Through Their Eyes
Touching the axe kickstarted something in me. I'm becoming more demon all the time. I don't know what I'll be when this finishes.
Kickstarted, you say? An odd choice of words in a world without motorcycles.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarchic Fox
Completely unrelated to the above, here's a line from the current Goblins comic.
Kickstarted, you say? An odd choice of words in a world without motorcycles.
You can kick a horse and make them move so the expression doesn't seem that out of place to me. But then again I didn't know it had anything to do with motorcycles.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarchic Fox
Performative language is an interest of mine. If you're curious about its academic theory, the best place to start is How to Do Things with Words by J. L. Austin, although Grice and Cavell have also done valuable work in the field. To summarize about two whole chapters of that book, yes, a promise has to be explicit in some way. Saying "I promise that..." or following something with "That is a promise." are common ways. You could also ask somebody "Is that a promise?" after they make a bold declaration, and if they say yes, then it's a promise. (And if they say no, you know they're full of it.) You can also use related terms, like "vow" or "swear" or various legal terms. However, omitting that explicitness means something isn't a promise, no matter how emphatic, decisive, vehement, or unconditional it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarchic Fox
I'm not sure I've ever won anyone over with my arguments. However, hopefully I will explain enough to make you see that these distinctions are not quibbles, but part of an important and often neglected aspect of language. Chomsky split the study of language into phonetics, morphemics, syntax and semantics. Performativity, which is what you do with words, should be the fifth item on this list, because what you do with words cannot be reduced to what you mean by them.
You're trying to say that this isn't a quibble but you're ignoring the actual usage of language that people have in favor of academics in an attempt to make a point. What that point is I'm still not certain because you seem to completely understand the points that are being made and are not disagreeing with them - you're just fixated on 'correcting' the language that other people use. If that's not a pointless, pedantic, quibble then I don't know what is. That being said I will attempt to avoid using the word 'promise' if it's going to cause the conversation to veer away from the actual points that are being discussed.
As far as Elli being a perfectionist - I think that the idea is laughable personally. There's a fine line between someone procrastinating and someone being a perfectionist and the two are often conflated with one another (and indeed - one can lead to another). Elli doesn't display any degree of perfection in anything she does - her artwork has improved over a period of years as makes sense, but the way she's always presented herself to her community is that of anxiety and fear. She doesn't strive to meet her goals, she doesn't change her behavior to reflect her limitations. She commits to things, then she worries about the appearance of those commitments, then doesn't do them. She makes a declaration of intent that looks good and draws positive feedback, asks for some money, and then never follows through.
It reminds me of myself, to a certain extent. I'm a programmer and I have often had a tendency to stall when I encounter a problem or something I don't understand. I'll work on something for 80 hours but then when I hit a roadblock I'll simply freeze and do nothing. Sometimes for an absurd amount of time. I would tell myself, and those I work for, that I'm having this problem and that I'm trying to fix it but really I was frozen. Anxiety that I would fail to do my job, fear that I wouldn't be able to figure something out would just stop me in my tracks. I eventually met, and worked with, someone who was a true perfectionist and he blew me away with just how good he was at his job. Not just because he was smart but because he never stopped working to meet his goals. If he promised a delivery he would work extra hours to make it happen and if he failed to meet the delivery he didn't just give up or abandon the project - he would continue to work until he got it done. He would write and refactor code to continually make it better. He, single-handedly, took my team from a 90's era software development cycle to an incredibly modern agile development team that's one of the top in our local industry. When he felt restricted by our equipment and office space he put together a business case and presented it to higher ups in the company for why it needed to change. When he felt held back by our management he put into motion a change to our team structure and then left our company for another one.
I learned a lot by being exposed to someone like that - most importantly I learned that I don't get credit for wanting to do something the right way if I'm not working towards that goal. That's why I, personally, don't consider Elli a perfectionist - she uses her desire to do something 'right' as an excuse to just constantly quit on anything. An excuse to not adhere to a schedule. That being said - I don't fault her for all of it. Her fan base is wiling to support her despite the fact that she 'quit' and refuses to adhere to any sort of schedule - if that's what she wants to do then that's fine because it works. I do have a problem with her attempting to disguise it as 'perfectionism' and I do think that her failure to deliver on commitments (tempts fate, Kickstarter stuff) is a fault of hers. I actually backed, and then cancelled at the last minute, my pledge to the Goblins game because I just don't trust her. When that fell through she wasn't even at fault because the person who actually ran the drive is the one who was culpable but she was so worried about her image that she actively went out of her way to make it her problem just so that she could simply stop at the alleged last minute. She seems to care more about having the image of a perfectionist than actually working or delivering liking one. The fact that many of her big speeches come shortly before some sort of campaign where she wants money is also suspicious AF in my opinion but if her base is willing to support that then, while it makes me think less of her, I don't fault her for taking advantage of that.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anarchic Fox
Saying that you will do something is not making a promise. It just isn't.
No, just literally no. I defend Ellipses and this comic a lot and I plan to keep doing so for as long she plans to keep making but even devoid of any wider context this specific statement right here is a bad take of historic proportions.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Typewriter
I eventually met, and worked with, someone who was a true perfectionist and he blew me away with just how good he was at his job. Not just because he was smart but because he never stopped working to meet his goals. If he promised a delivery he would work extra hours to make it happen and if he failed to meet the delivery he didn't just give up or abandon the project - he would continue to work until he got it done. He would write and refactor code to continually make it better. He, single-handedly, took my team from a 90's era software development cycle to an incredibly modern agile development team that's one of the top in our local industry. When he felt restricted by our equipment and office space he put together a business case and presented it to higher ups in the company for why it needed to change. When he felt held back by our management he put into motion a change to our team structure and then left our company for another one.
They wouldn't happen to be interested in Healthcare Informatics and still be in contact with you?
:smalltongue:I kid! I kid! This is not a recruitment center.:smallbiggrin:
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Typewriter
As far as Elli being a perfectionist - I think that the idea is laughable personally. There's a fine line between someone procrastinating and someone being a perfectionist and the two are often conflated with one another (and indeed - one can lead to another). Elli doesn't display any degree of perfection in anything she does - her artwork has improved over a period of years as makes sense, but the way she's always presented herself to her community is that of anxiety and fear. She doesn't strive to meet her goals, she doesn't change her behavior to reflect her limitations. She commits to things, then she worries about the appearance of those commitments, then doesn't do them. She makes a declaration of intent that looks good and draws positive feedback, asks for some money, and then never follows through.
You are right there. I think I know where this idea comes from, though: I'm going out on a limp here, but I think I read somewhere that the placement of the little white dots in the goblin's eyes when angry are done by hand. Each time, each panel, every last instance. This is reportedly the case because the goblins pages naturally exist also in HD, and the eyes still have to look good. If she isn't satisfied with the dots she won't post the page. It's just an example.
There are cases where this has probably led to work never being finished.
You are on point: Wanting something to be good is not the same thing as it actually being done well, and this has taken the guise of being a perfectionist. I think it's wrong priorities once again.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
@Typewriter, I think that there is another keyword that you want, and it's "drive".
On the extreme level, it's the difference between daydreaming and doing things. In your case, it's the difference between giving up or procrastinating and keep approaching and working on an unpleasant problem. (BTW; I think your problem is pretty common.)
A perfectionist can lack drive and end up worried of spoiling his perfect plan by putting it into act at the wrong time. Or he can have drive, but not adapt the project size to his drive. This is why I have critiqued the choice of the colour armour for Minmax, as it's a drain of mental resources. And you can also be hit by the unforeseen: I think Goblins ended up being emotively far more demanding than expected.
But of course, at this point, you have the "perfectionist in his thoughts", and the "perfectionist in his acts", and they are completely different beasts.
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Originally Posted by
Lissou
You can kick a horse and make them move so the expression doesn't seem that out of place to me. But then again I didn't know it had anything to do with motorcycles.
Sure, just be careful about the kickback :smallbiggrin:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Willie the Duck
They wouldn't happen to be interested in Healthcare Informatics and still be in contact with you?
:smalltongue:I kid! I kid! This is not a recruitment center.:smallbiggrin:
"Healthcare Informatics made me the man I am today!"
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dragonus45
No, just literally no. I defend Ellipses and this comic a lot and I plan to keep doing so for as long she plans to keep making but even devoid of any wider context this specific statement right here is a bad take of historic proportions.
Id like to add that holding people accountable for explicit promises only opens a whole other can of worms. If you say you'll do it, do it. Don't let your mouth write cheques your ass can't handle.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Willie the Duck
They wouldn't happen to be interested in Healthcare Informatics and still be in contact with you?
:smalltongue:I kid! I kid! This is not a recruitment center.:smallbiggrin:
If I could convince him to go anywhere it would be to return to us :P. Actually, about 6 months after he left, our plan to replace our manager finally came to fruition and the new manager immediately reached out to him to offer him a new job but his current place recognizes how much he does and actually pays him appropriately for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daywalker1983
You are right there. I think I know where this idea comes from, though: I'm going out on a limp here, but I think I read somewhere that the placement of the little white dots in the goblin's eyes when angry are done by hand. Each time, each panel, every last instance. This is reportedly the case because the goblins pages naturally exist also in HD, and the eyes still have to look good. If she isn't satisfied with the dots she won't post the page. It's just an example.
There are cases where this has probably led to work never being finished.
You are on point: Wanting something to be good is not the same thing as it actually being done well, and this has taken the guise of being a perfectionist. I think it's wrong priorities once again.
I think it's definitely fair to say that Elli cares a lot about the quality of her artwork but that seems to be the only part of it that she really cares about. Her writing hasn't improved, she doesn't care about schedules, she doesn't even care about her fans unless it's to convince them of something or ask them for money.
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Originally Posted by
Vinyadan
@Typewriter, I think that there is another keyword that you want, and it's "drive".
On the extreme level, it's the difference between daydreaming and doing things. In your case, it's the difference between giving up or procrastinating and keep approaching and working on an unpleasant problem. (BTW; I think your problem is pretty common.)
A perfectionist can lack drive and end up worried of spoiling his perfect plan by putting it into act at the wrong time. Or he can have drive, but not adapt the project size to his drive. This is why I have critiqued the choice of the colour armour for Minmax, as it's a drain of mental resources. And you can also be hit by the unforeseen: I think Goblins ended up being emotively far more demanding than expected.
But of course, at this point, you have the "perfectionist in his thoughts", and the "perfectionist in his acts", and they are completely different beasts.
Drive is definitely a fair factor to bring up and a lack of it is definitely something that can turn perfectionism into procrastination. Elli often does seem to have drive but it always seems to change focus to whatever she's most interested at any given time and abandoned when she moves on to something else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daywalker1983
Id like to add that holding people accountable for explicit promises only opens a whole other can of worms. If you say you'll do it, do it. Don't let your mouth write cheques your ass can't handle.
While I do disagree with Anarchic Fox I will say that I don't think he was trying to say that someone should be let off the hook just because they didn't explicitly promise to do something - I think he was just trying to highlight a different interpretation in the terminology and meaning of specific words. It's an interpretation that I don't think many agree with (or care about) and one that causes a bit of confusion as to the point that he's trying to make but I don't think he's trying to imply that Elli is faultless just because she never explicitly said, "I promise..."
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tomaO2
I won't deny that her art has consistently gotten more difficult to draw, and she keeps making more work for herself. Forgath is absurdly detailed. I also watched her back in the day on livestream, so I do have an idea that it takes a lot of work. Does that make her a perfectionist though?
Not really. People that claim they are perfectionists are often anything but.
They just drown themselves in extra work to avoid and get sidetracked into oblivion. I remember Erfworld author claiming to be that, despite always running out of funds, always promising too much and always underdelivering.
Forget perfectionists. Just get **** done.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
-D-
Not really. People that claim they are perfectionists are often anything but.
They just drown themselves in extra work to avoid and get sidetracked into oblivion. I remember Erfworld author claiming to be that, despite always running out of funds, always promising too much and always underdelivering.
Forget perfectionists. Just get **** done.
I do see a lot of similarities between the two authors. I don't think Ell is as quite the same as Rob though. It was pretty clear for a long time that Rob had lost their passion for Erfworld and was only in it because they needed the income. With Ell, I do feel like she legitimately wants to provide the best product possible. She just lacks the stability and self discipline to do it.
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Re: Goblins XVII: The shocking end of the story arc
Maybe it's already been noticed but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnJXHcmwbn8
"The little girl will be missing her doll. We should return it to her."
:smallbiggrin: