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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
I think the relevant rule is this one:
Quote:
112.7a Once activated or triggered, an ability exists on the stack independently of its source. Destruction or removal of the source after that time won’t affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to do something (for example, “Prodigal Pyromancer deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source because the effect needs to be divided checks that information when the ability is put onto the stack. Otherwise, it will check that information when it resolves. In both instances, if the source is no longer in the zone it’s expected to be in at that time, its last known information is used. The source can still perform the action even though it no longer exists.
At the time the ability resolves, the Crypt Rats are treated as though they do not exist, as a result of the phasing rules. Therefore, they are not in the zone they're expected to be in at the time (since they aren't in any zone at all), which means we use the last known information to determine if they have lifelink or not as they deal damage.
The last known information is from just before Crypt Rats phased out. At that time, it had lifelink from whatever source, as you mentioned. Therefore, the damage-dealing ability gains its controller life.
Someone yell at me if I got it wrong!
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silfir
I think the relevant rule is this one:
At the time the ability resolves, the Crypt Rats are treated as though they do not exist, as a result of the phasing rules. Therefore, they are not in the zone they're expected to be in at the time (since they aren't in any zone at all), which means we use the last known information to determine if they have lifelink or not as they deal damage.
The last known information is from just before Crypt Rats phased out. At that time, it had lifelink from whatever source, as you mentioned. Therefore, the damage-dealing ability gains its controller life.
Someone yell at me if I got it wrong!
Not a Judge (yet), but this is the way I read it. However, keep in mind that the Crypt Rats are still on the battlefield; they just aren't in a place on the battlefield where we can look at them. The Crypt Rats will also still not have lifelink, from rule 702.5e
Quote:
702.25e Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it’s phased in. In particular, effects with “for as long as” durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.
but it can't be checked to see if it has lifelink right now. The last known information (from when it was phasing out) was that it still had lifelink, because the effect didn't end until the Crypt Rats phased out. Therefore, when the ability resolves and last known information is checked, Crypt Rats has lifelink and you gain life.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Thank you both. Is what I suspected as well but at the time it was 4am and I was just trying to get the idea out of my skull so I could go back to sleep. :smallsmile: Thank you both.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LastCenturion
Not a Judge (yet), but this is the way I read it. However, keep in mind that the Crypt Rats are still on the battlefield; they just aren't in a place on the battlefield where we can look at them.
Well, as per 702.25b, for the purpose of any rule that doesn't specifically mention phased out permanents we treat them as though they don't exist, right? Something that doesn't exist isn't on the battlefield or in any other zone. :smalltongue:
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Guys. I figured it out. Lifelink is not a triggered ability. It does not use the stack. And if it isn't lifelink, but is instead the ability granted by Armadillo Cloak or Spirit Link, the ability is on the Enchantment, not the Creature, so you still gain the life.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Svata
Guys. I figured it out. Lifelink is not a triggered ability. It does not use the stack. And if it isn't lifelink, but is instead the ability granted by Armadillo Cloak or Spirit Link, the ability is on the Enchantment, not the Creature, so you still gain the life.
FYI Phased out permanents take their auras, equipment, and counters with them.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silfir
Well, as per 702.25b, for the purpose of any rule that doesn't specifically mention phased out permanents we treat them as though they don't exist, right? Something that doesn't exist isn't on the battlefield or in any other zone. :smalltongue:
As though they don't exist; they still exist, and they're still on the battlefield, but they're completely invisible to anything that would say "Hey, is there a thing here?" unless the thing would say "Hey, is there a phased-out thing here?" Like, if I'm looking in my kitchen for apples, but you put a bowl upside-down over an apple, I can't see the apple to go "hey, there's an apple here" unless I decide to move the bowl. The apple is still there, I just can't find it.
Unless the Crypt Rats is actually a token copy of another nontoken Crypt Rats, in which case it would cease to exist when it phased out, as per 702.25k.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
@LastCenturion: I know, I know...
"A place on the battlefield where we can't look at them" is a metaphor to help understand how it works, but not that much more precise than what I stated. The rules don't reference a "place", or what being unable to "look at" something means, after all.
What I tried to is point out the effect of the legal fiction we are required to apply; for as long as we're not applying a rule that references a phased-out permanent, the Crypt Rats simply don't exist to us. That means they're not on the battlefield, for as long as we're not applying a rule that references a phased-out permanent. And me leaving out the phrase "for as long as we're not applying a rule that references a phased-out permanent" for the purpose of (relative) brevity I'm hoping is a forgivable sin. I suppose I could abbreviate it to FALAWNAARTRAPOP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Svata
Guys. I figured it out. Lifelink is not a triggered ability. It does not use the stack. And if it isn't lifelink, but is instead the ability granted by Armadillo Cloak or Spirit Link, the ability is on the Enchantment, not the Creature, so you still gain the life.
Like unseenmage points out, Auras attached to a permanent phase out "with" that permanent; it's called "indirect" phasing. They have specific rules for phasing back in - they phase in at the same time the permanent they are attached to phase in; if that permanent can no longer phase in (for instance, if it was a token, and therefore was destroyed upon being phased out) the Aura is phased out forever. (Has some practical application with, for instance, Batterskull.)
That means that Spirit Link will not actually gain you life. When the last known information on Crypt Rats is checked, it checks for abilities Crypt Rats has that may affect the way the damage effect is resolved (like lifelink does). Though it was enchanted with Spirit Link at the time, Spirit Link doesn't affect what abilities the Crypt Rats have.
Though even if the ability belonged to the Crypt Rats natively for whatever reason, for a triggered ability to fire the conditions in 112.6 have to be met, which in this case means the Crypt Rats would have to be on the battlefield - and since they're phased out, they're treated as though they don't exist*, and are thus not on the battlefield for the purposes of 112.6 (though they actually are).
*FALAWNAARTRAPOP
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Yes, it's important to note that it's treated as if it doesn't exist, but it's also important that the object itself -- which is still dealing damage -- is in a zone; it's on the battlefield, and had lifelink the last time its information could be checked, so 702.15d applies (On lifelink: Lifelink functions in any zone. Paraphrased) and the Crypt Rats have lifelink. You gain the life.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LastCenturion
Yes, it's important to note that it's treated as if it doesn't exist, but it's also important that the object itself -- which is still dealing damage -- is in a zone; it's on the battlefield, and had lifelink the last time its information could be checked, so 702.15d applies (On lifelink: Lifelink functions in any zone. Paraphrased) and the Crypt Rats have lifelink. You gain the life.
Huh - 702.15d is not a rule that references phased-out permanents, so for the purposes of 702.15d we also have to treat Crypt Rats as though it doesn't exist and therefore *isn't* in "any zone", as per 702.25b. I'm not sure that rule helps with anything.
112.7a also doesn't reference phased-out permanents, but in contrast to 702.15d, 112.7a doesn't require the source of the damage-dealing ability to be in any zone. It only asks whether it's *in the zone it was expected to be*, and once the answer is No, 112.7a doesn't care where it is or isn't (after all, the ability exists independently of its source), it just asks for the last known information, which is that it *was* on the battlefield and had lifelink.
Anyway, we arrive at the same result, even if we ever so slightly disagree on how we got there!
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Silfir
Huh - 702.15d is not a rule that references phased-out permanents, so for the purposes of 702.15d we also have to treat Crypt Rats as though it doesn't exist and therefore *isn't* in "any zone", as per 702.25b. I'm not sure that rule helps with anything.
112.7a also doesn't reference phased-out permanents, but in contrast to 702.15d, 112.7a doesn't require the source of the damage-dealing ability to be in any zone. It only asks whether it's *in the zone it was expected to be*, and once the answer is No, 112.7a doesn't care where it is or isn't (after all, the ability exists independently of its source), it just asks for the last known information, which is that it *was* on the battlefield and had lifelink.
Anyway, we arrive at the same result, even if we ever so slightly disagree on how we got there!
I guess? I'm still not sure why you're saying (correct me if this isn't what you're saying) that it's not on the battlefield. Whatever.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
By default, it's not, because of the legal fiction established by 705.25b/d. The excepting case - if a rule or effect specifically mentions phased-out permanents - has to apply; only rules and effects that fulfill that condition can treat phased-out permanents as though they exist.
So when the question is one of how to apply 112.7a or 705.15d - rules that do not mention phased-out permanents - as far as those questions are concerned, Crypt Rats can't be on the battlefield, or even exist. We're required to work under the legal fiction that they're not.
That's at least how I understand the rules text.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
But in that same rule you mention -- 702.25d -- it's stated that a permanent phasing out doesn't change zones. It was on the battlefield, and it didn't go anywhere, so it must still be on the battlefield. The rules still see the creature there, it's just that the game doesn't.
I feel like we're never going to resolve this. My guess at why is that we have different interpretations of "does not mention phased out stuff" and arguments over the technicalities. For practical purposes, I don't think it matters who is right; if it's there and nothing can see it, then it's basically not there. If it's not there at all, then it's basically not there.
Also, and a little bit more on topic, I kinda want to play Lantern Control, but I don't really want to pay $1000 for it. Is this (slightly) budget alternative still good?
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Bad deck idea of the day: Flameblade Adept + Shadowstorm Vizier + Drastic Revelation = win?
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
I just realized that one Glorious End can negate the loss of another. That's silly.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Not negate, I don't think - the second Glorious End just prevents the end step of that turn, but next turn both Glorious End triggers will fire. Meaning you'll lose if you only have one Exquisite Archangel or one Disallow. Still, one more turn might be all you need to find that Gideon.
Oh, of course - if you fire the second Glorious End while the first losing trigger is on the stack, it gets exiled. Duh!
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bucky
Bad deck idea of the day: Flameblade Adept + Shadowstorm Vizier + Drastic Revelation = win?
How many cards do you really expect to have by the time you have 5 lands in play? I mean, not that you probably wouldn't kill them anyways, but I think you're more likely to get there with Shadow of the Dead and some discard outlet at this point, no?
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Wow. Everything is different now.
- No small sets
- Core sets are back
- Less Gatewatch
- Less Masterpieces (none in Ixalan)
I look forward to this brave new world.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
I just came up with a ridiculous card concept that wold blatantly never see print: a 1/1 that can win the game with combat damage in one turn.
Spoiler
Show
(name) (mana cost)
(legendary) creature - (subtypes)
Double Strike, Infect
Whenever ~ deals combat damage, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Whenever ~ attacks for the first time each turn, untap it. After this phase, there is an additional combat phase.
Pretty silly, right?
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
enderlord99
I just came up with a ridiculous card concept that wold blatantly never see print: a 1/1 that can win the game with combat damage in one turn.
Spoiler
Show
(name) (mana cost)
(legendary) creature - (subtypes)
Double Strike, Infect
Whenever ~ deals combat damage, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Whenever ~ attacks for the first time each turn, untap it. After this phase, there is an additional combat phase.
Pretty silly, right?
Needs more unblockable.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Eh, just make it cost 1, and give it menace.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
I mean, due to the way you've written it, it only untaps and gets another combat phase after the first time it attacks each turn. So...
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
All right, Wizards. You made some really sick announcements. I look forward to another year of awesome Magic.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shadow of the Sun
I mean, due to the way you've written it, it only untaps and gets another combat phase after the first time it attacks each turn. So...
Two combat phases in a turn is enough for it to be lethal, though. It will deal exactly 10 infect damage in 4 hits.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dhavaer
Two combat phases in a turn is enough for it to be lethal, though. It will deal exactly 10 infect damage in 4 hits.
Exactly.:smallbiggrin:
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Folks, I'm looking for ideas.
I'm working on my next EDH deck, and masochistically have decided on Boros. Rather than strict aggro, though, I want to politic and incite fights between the other players. Any ideas on cards that do such things? I'm planning on cards to introduce the Monarch mechanic, and to pass around something chunky with the Assault Suit strapped to it. There are some curses that will incentivize players to attack one another. Goblin Diplomats and similar cards seem like a bad plan since I can't control where the attack goes.
Pitch me suggestions! Obviously White and Red are preferred, but other colors can suggest new things to look for as well.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Occasional Sage
Folks, I'm looking for ideas.
I'm working on my next EDH deck, and masochistically have decided on Boros. Rather than strict aggro, though, I want to politic and incite fights between the other players. Any ideas on cards that do such things? I'm planning on cards to introduce the Monarch mechanic, and to pass around something chunky with the Assault Suit strapped to it. There are some curses that will incentivize players to attack one another. Goblin Diplomats and similar cards seem like a bad plan since I can't control where the attack goes.
Pitch me suggestions! Obviously White and Red are preferred, but other colors can suggest new things to look for as well.
"Everything attacks" effects like Goblin Diplomats are great if you have a few Ghostly Prison effects to compliment them.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Add in blue, grab Zedru, and use her to play Goatfather.
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Re: Magic the Gathering XXII: Where Puns Go to Die
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Occasional Sage
Folks, I'm looking for ideas.
I'm working on my next EDH deck, and masochistically have decided on Boros. Rather than strict aggro, though, I want to politic and incite fights between the other players. Any ideas on cards that do such things? I'm planning on cards to introduce the Monarch mechanic, and to pass around something chunky with the Assault Suit strapped to it. There are some curses that will incentivize players to attack one another. Goblin Diplomats and similar cards seem like a bad plan since I can't control where the attack goes.
Pitch me suggestions! Obviously White and Red are preferred, but other colors can suggest new things to look for as well.
Why not add Black and use Queen Marchesa as your commander?