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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Lix Lorn
But it can't. If you use TAW, all of your charms are fluffed as eldritch weirdness.
Ok. And, given Luna is supposedly the patron, why is this a downside?
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Originally Posted by
Jade Dragon
No, not really. I would prefer if mortals had formed the Haslanti League on their own. Raksi isn't very interesting, she's just some insane person. Ma-Ha-Suchi is just kind of... there. Some vague and unknown threat of a beastman army.
Raksi is actually pretty damn interesting, if you go back more towards 1ed(or do TAW).
Second Edition portrayals are pretty badly done, though.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Sanguine
... Or to hide in those little pocket dimensions Lunars can create? I call bull.
Isn't there someone in the Core book that did exactly that? Jaguar something-or-other?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Kobold-Bard
Isn't there someone in the Core book that did exactly that? Jaguar something-or-other?
Uh, no. He made himself a tomb. After the Silver Pact was formed and the new castes had been made.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Tavar
Ok. And, given Luna is supposedly the patron, why is this a downside?
Cause that's not what makes me want to play a Lunar. We already have sidereals and infernals for weirdness.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Different kinds of weirdness, though.
And, again, why shouldn't Lunars have ties to their patron?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Because when I go to lunars, that's not what I want to make.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Lix Lorn
Because when I go to lunars, that's not what I want to make.
Every other exalt type has ties to their patron though. :smallconfused:
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Turalisj
Every other exalt type has ties to their patron though. :smallconfused:
And Lunars don't? If anything, mercurial individualist survivor wardens are the most direct exemplifiers of their patron's traits.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Turalisj
Every other exalt type has ties to their patron though. :smallconfused:
This doesn't change my point at all. I've come to expect a set of things from Lunars. That's what I want to be able to do. If a rewrite of Lunars makes it so that I can't do that, it's not a rewrite of lunars. It's a new splat.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Although the Terrifying Argent Witches re-write is neat on its own merits, I have to agree with some of Lix's reservations. (Or maybe we have entirely different reservations, I'm not sure.) It's not quite what I want from of a Lunar Charmset; they feel like Yozi/Primordial Charms written for Luna, or maybe Sidereal Charms. That design philosophy, where each attribute is written around a theme? That feels wrong to me. It's basically how Sidereal Charms are written (which is why we get Larceny Charms that focus on stealing or obfuscating knowledge, and Medicine Charms that deal with zombies and shadowlands).
Don't get me wrong, I like Yozi and Sidereal Charms. But I don't really want Lunars to work the same way. I would love a Lunar Charmset that follows through on what their Excellencies promise and gives a set of extremely flexible, straightforward Attribute-based Charms. Argent Witches don't give me that.
I wouldn't mind seeing eldritch weirdness worked into Lunar Charms too, in the same way that sunlight and blazing righteousness is worked into the general I-am-good-at-stuff of Solar Charms. But the Terrifying Argent Witch set is too much of it. It's like a sandwich composed entirely of pickles; pickles are awesome, but there needs to be some bread and lettuce and stuff in there too.
There are some good ideas in there, and I wouldn't mind pilfering some Charms and maybe the basic shapeshifting mechanics. But as a whole, it's missing something.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
omegalith
And Lunars don't? If anything, mercurial individualist survivor wardens are the most direct exemplifiers of their patron's traits.
Perhaps it's more accurate to say every Exalted type has ties within it's charmset to their Patron. Lunar's done(not even their shapeshifting.)
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Originally Posted by
The_Snark
Although the Terrifying Argent Witches re-write is neat on its own merits, I have to agree with some of Lix's reservations. (Or maybe we have entirely different reservations, I'm not sure.) It's not quite what I want from of a Lunar Charmset; they feel like Yozi/Primordial Charms written for Luna, or maybe Sidereal Charms. That design philosophy, where each attribute is written around a theme? That feels wrong to me. It's basically how Sidereal Charms are written (which is why we get Larceny Charms that focus on stealing or obfuscating knowledge, and Medicine Charms that deal with zombies and shadowlands).
It's more how every charmset except Solars is built around. And even Solars, just their statement is 'X ability to the utmost level of human ability and then some.'
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Originally Posted by
Lix Lorn
This doesn't change my point at all. I've come to expect a set of things from Lunars. That's what I want to be able to do. If a rewrite of Lunars makes it so that I can't do that, it's not a rewrite of lunars. It's a new splat.
So, you want them to be Silver Solars?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
I want them to be animal themed.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
@Snark: That's actually the closest to what I was initially asking about when I brought Lunars up: a breakdown of what TAW is about, given that the project itself lacks an introductory section.
I do like good fan material, the Gates of Hell being a good example of an interesting D&D supplement, but it kinda needs to sell me on it's value before I commit to reading an entire non-canon book's worth of material.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
What kind of introduction do you mean? There's quite a bit of that stuff linked in the hub thread, have you looked into it?
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Originally Posted by
Lix Lorn
I want them to be animal themed.
Ok, what does that mean? We've had 2 editions of animal them, and they were both dross. What would you see done differently so that the theme was, well, not a horrible drag. I guess you'd re-write Luna into something else?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
I'd write mechanics for animals that don't suck, I'd make the lunar charmset vaguely decent, and I'd write fluff that had them doing something. I'd probably use the excuse dragnar gave about the spirit shape being a tribute to gaia. I'd also open it to pretty much any form they can take, though. Spirit shape blood ape? Sounds cool to me.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Tavar
What kind of introduction do you mean? There's quite a bit of that stuff linked in the hub thread, have you looked into it?
The hub just seems to link to history fluff and charms, laid out like the chapters of a book.
Given that I don't consider Lunars to have poorly executed fluff or themes, I was pretty much just asking what the base concept was so I could see if it sounded interesting. So far all I've heard is vague mentions of lovecraftian nightmare imagery and "weirdness".
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Miscellanous Useful Posts
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
yea but on the flipside, I don't see how animals could be that powerful a thematic, it just seems too limited to physical things, I don't see much application in animals for social and mental stuff and well…..there just should be more.
however the vague lovecraftian horror weirdness thing isn't all the powerful and applicable either. :\
to me, until 3e gives us what Lunars really will be, they are just a silver void...
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Lord Raziere
however the vague lovecraftian horror weirdness thing isn't all the powerful and applicable either. :\
It's not really vauge lovecraftian horror. Well, there is that, but most of that is more restricted to Chimera effects.
It's more tied to, well, Witches.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Lix Lorn
I want them to be animal themed.
That's a fairly restrictive theme and one that isn't even connected to Luna.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Tavar
It's more how every charmset except Solars is built around. And even Solars, just their statement is 'X ability to the utmost level of human ability and then some.'
Hmm. I suppose you could argue that just as Sidereals interpret Abilities through the lens of the associated Maiden, Terrestrials interpret them through an associated element, while Abyssals put a deathly spin on everything (when they're not mirroring Solars). I suspect that this is as much because they're trying to differentiate themselves from the basic Solar ability Charms, which Lunars (in theory) should not have to worry about... but now that I think about it, there's no real reason why Luna should have Attribute-based excellence as a theme. Will have to think about that.
But I'm still not satisfied with the design of individual Charms. When I say they're like Yozi or Sidereal Charms, I don't just mean they have thematics beyond Attribute/Ability: I mean they tend to produce esoteric, often highly specialized effects in the same way that those two do. Some of them actually are Yozi Charms by a different name—Hungry Souls Laid Bare and Unilateral Approach Rejection Technique, for instance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
omegalith
@Snark: That's actually the closest to what I was initially asking about when I brought Lunars up: a breakdown of what TAW is about, given that the project itself lacks an introductory section.
Ah. The summary, then, is that TAW re-writes Lunars to be more in line with Luna as presented in Glories of the Most High: a contradictory trickster-deity born from the nightmares of Oramus, maddening and seductive and terrifying all at the same time, holding the Wyld in thrall as the moon holds the tides.
If you like that idea, then by all means check it out. That said, it's only tangentially related to how Lunars were originally presented. If you like canon Lunars—or if you like the idea behind canon Lunars, but think they need fixing—then it may not be to your liking.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Raziere
yea but on the flipside, I don't see how animals could be that powerful a thematic, it just seems too limited to physical things, I don't see much application in animals for social and mental stuff and well…..there just should be more.
First off, most distinction between Humans and Animals is basically false. We're just lucky to have a trait set that allows for advanced tool use, retention of knowledge and cooperation. Setting us apart on an inherent basis is just anthropocentrism.
...Alas, Exalted is an extremely anthropocentric setting. Mostly because of all the superpowers hot glued to us and us alone.
Still, you can find traits worth emulating, traits that contrast and traits that inspire everywhere in nature. Themes like having the strength of ten bears tie in to some of our oldest legends, and the Exalted are nothing if not legendary in theme.
...And in theory, that's just the entry level. Animal forms are alternate shapes that are most similar to our own in substance and concept. After mastering the fundamentals, you can move on to non-organic shapeshifting. Improvised forms, spirits, elementals, mineral aspects and so forth. Unfortunately, the latter isn't touched on enough. There's mention of the primordil war Lunars stealing Behemoth shapes, but that's about as far as it goes.
Leviathan shouldn't be a huge Orca, he's an elder, and should thus be freely combining and flowing between every Sea Monster archetype as the whim strikes him.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
"Though Leviathan has a War Form of a massive humanoid Orca, even by the time of the Usurpation it had been many centuries since he favoured it's use. Nowadays Leviathan's favoured form can simply be described as vast and aquatic. Whether he rises from the depths as a vast maw, a writhing mass of tentacles or some long forgotten Behemoth of the deeps is simply a matter of practicality... Or as in most cases where the his opponent is of negligable threat, of whimsy."
Something like that should be the baseline for a Lunar Elder, or at least the ones that don't make any pretense of still being human.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Turalisj
That's a fairly restrictive theme and one that isn't even connected to Luna.
Sorry, let me adjust that
There should be the OPTION to be animal themed.
Whether it really fits or not, Lunars have been shoehorned into werewolves for two editions. I'm not saying they should stay like that.
I'm saying that were-thing should stay an option.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
I like where all this is going. If I could give White Wolf one piece of inspiration for 3rd edition Lunars it would be Alex Mercer, Blacklight Prototype
No, don't leave!
Mercer is my favorite videogame character by a long shot, and running hypothetical "what-if I had Blacklight" scenarios in my mind is basically a hobby. But even from a non fanboy point of view, let me give you some bullet points about him and see how they stack up to what we've all been talking about:
- Mobility: Alex starts the game jumping about fourty feet up and can sprint nonstop at 60 mph (~90kph)
- Power: Mercer can, from the first, throw cars and kill mortals with a single punch
- Shapeshifting: Mercer can perfectly replicate a targets voice and body and switch into it at will
- Weaponry: Mercer has several "styles" of fighting that involve turning his appendages into weapons. Each style has pros and cons.
- Armor: Mercer can create a temporary shield or a slo, powerful suit of armor
- Intrigue: Mercer can absorb memories of people he's slain, and use their knowledge against them.
- Adaptability: Mercer has a tool for every situation and every situation can be solved with several tools
- Investigation: Mercer can adapt to see thermal images instead of visible, or can see enemies by their infection rating
- Hunter: Heller (Prototype 2) can "sonar" a target to find her across a city
- Evolution: No aspect of Mercer is static. His abilities grow and feats that were legendary at the start of his quest are minor by the end of it.
- Virtue Flaws: Mercer has a hard time with this "compassion" thing, and discovering the truth of his sordid past causes him to accrue limit- culminating in crippling paralysis as his brain sorts itself out.
- Chimerism: Mercer is host to what is essentially a shapeshifting cancer for some time.
That's what I want in a Third Edition Lunar Hero. Shapeshifting Bad@#$ hunter/killer with nigh limitless room for power and a host of martial art styles aimed at their ability to shapeshift. All of the above are done without animal themes, too, so you can have your cake and eat it.
**what Martial Art styles you ask...? Allow me:
Ravenous Claws of the Hunter: by shifting his hands and wrists into large bladed talons, the Lunar is able to slice and dice with deadly speed. This style is best for when attacked by several foes of moderate power, such as a Wyld Hunt, and provides the best all around abilities. Great Master "Zeus" Mercer has often called this style the default for Lunars in Combat.
Crushing Anvil Hammers is a style for smashing armored foes and breaking through think walls. The Lunar can channel his essence into making two large, destructive fists capable of massive damage and ignoring soak. This power comes at the cost of mobility, though, as such weighty attacks to not lend themselves to speed.
Arrowhead Tendril Hunger is one of the few styles that does not utilize dual wielding. The Lunar increases her reach with a bladed weight on an extendable whip, capable of cleaving many foes at once and catching fleeing opponents. Possible the most mobile and deadly style, its secret weakness is its poor performance against armored foes.
Supreme Glorification of Ability style may have been forgotten to time due to a schism in the ranks of the old masters. By focusing essence directly into their existing body instead of modifying it, the Lunar is able to reach heights of strength, speed, and stamina that even few Solars have tasted. The style has not had a champion in hundreds of years... but rumors persist that a secret cabal of Lunars that have rediscovered the techniques, rumors which also speak of their frightening primalcy and immense power.
Solitary Rending Blade often seen as the ultimate style for battle hungry Lunars, practitioners of this style turn their favored arm into a large powerful blade, capable of slicing through stone and man alike, but without losing any of the Lunar's famed mobility. Masters of this style often also employ Wild Wall Shielding Technique, creating a... "unique" lunar take on the tradition of sword and shield fighting.
Encompassing Chains of Flesh is a new style formed by a renegade Lunar warrior. This style seeks to manacle it's foes with tendons of muscle and ropes of vein. While unorthodox, few can escape from such a power, and lesser beings have been known to be pulled limb-from-limb by its flexing power.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Quote:
Originally Posted by
omegalith
"Though Leviathan has a War Form of a massive humanoid Orca, even by the time of the Usurpation it had been many centuries since he favoured it's use. Nowadays Leviathan's favoured form can simply be described as vast and aquatic. Whether he rises from the depths as a vast maw, a writhing mass of tentacles or some long forgotten Behemoth of the deeps is simply a matter of practicality... Or as in most cases where the his opponent is of negligable threat, of whimsy."
Something like that should be the baseline for a Lunar Elder, or at least the ones that don't make any pretense of still being human.
This, by the way, is probably the greatest thing I've read in a long time, Omegalith. I like the idea. Alchemicals become cities, Infernals become Primordials, why shouldn't Lunar's become Titans?
Behemoth , Lord of Land, hasn't been seen in ten life times. It is said that he may be sleeping until he is needed, and that his form is so great that entire cities may be built unknowing on his back. The legends never tell of his martial prowess, for no army withstood the thunder in the earth of his massive footsteps approaching. He is said to resemble a great armored turtle, and may have given birth to such monstrosities as the beast which Mask of Winters calls his own. It is said that Behemoth has never met Zyx, but has kept council to Leviathan in past ages by descending the ocean floor in search for audience. Such meetings can produce Tsunami of epic reach were Behemoth ever careless in his ways.
Zyx, Storm and Fury, is a winged beast so great she casts a shadow dark as night beneath her mighty wingspan. Few have ever seen her, though any might enter her court if they can reach alive the Elemental pole of Air. To this end, Zyx is sometimes referred to as the "Queen Ice Mother" and has been known to give a gift of her potent down to worthy adventurers. Zyx's form is ever mutable, but it is said that she prefers of late to be a six winged serpent, with a hundred rows of talons and a body one mile long. For reasons beyond the ken of those born after the fall of the first age, Zyx harbors a deep resentment of Behemoth, though they have not met..
It is said that if the great Titans Three were ever to join forces, their terrible damage would beholden even Gaia to awe, a feat which Solar Scholars attribute as a "lasting joke" made deliberately by the Incarnae Luna on her lover.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
And what would Solars become? Sidereal? Dragon-blooded? Abyssals?
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
Alright, a bit of a different topic:
I just came from a neat thread over on the White Wolf forums that speculated about the changes that would happen to the 3e Yozis. My question is really one I've had for a while, but this prompted me to think about it.
Do all Infernal Urges explicitly have to end up dealing with "doing the Yozi's dirty work?"
For example, would it be possible to have a Slayer with an Urge of "Dance to your heart's content" or a Scourge with an Urge of "Run onwards forever"?
Because the Devs are saying that 3e is going to have the prospect of Yozi escape absolutely impossible (by canon, at least), and I was thinking about the idea of the Yozi, bound eternally, using Infernals and Akuma to live vicariously in the world, letting them reminisce about the glories of the old days (and, of course, shank those darned Solars/Lunars/Terrestrials/Sidereals because, quite frankly, they "deserve" it.)
I like the idea of a Slayer taking more from the Brass Dancer than from the 16ft tall brass-armored radioactive death monstrosity...
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
I think only Adorjan would waste manpower like that. By and large, akuma and GSPs are literally the only input they have in Creation. Each Infernal should have some definite purpose, regardless of how silly it seems to the Infernal himself. Malfeas certainly might give a dance-related Urge, but it has to benefit him in some way - after all, he has an entire jouten dedicated to dancing, so it's not like he needs some hairless ape doing it for him. Instead, it would be something like poisoning a major city with a literal dancing plague. Even if they can't escape, they're not going to sit by and just let those meddling gods and their dog get away with deposing them.
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Re: General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord
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Originally Posted by
Turalisj
And what would Solars become? Sidereal? Dragon-blooded? Abyssals?
Dragon-bloods are in a different category from the rest.
Solars already sort of become like Sol: humans, but more so and with arbitrary sunlight.
Sidereals become amazing fate-twisting manipulators - again, already handled.
Abyssals, frankly, start out as dead guys who kill everything.