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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
Got it this weekend,
I got it Friday, enjoyed the read.
What is the narrative purpose of the ettin encounter? It's the only part of the book that I found tedious. The rest was very enjoyable to read. Was the purpose to show that the ranger was a serious combatant?
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
What is the narrative purpose of the ettin encounter? It's the only part of the book that I found tedious. The rest was very enjoyable to read. Was the purpose to show that the ranger was a serious combatant?
For my money, I think it's meant to introduce the themes from the climax of later in the story. It's a deliberate mirror to the sophistry of... I'll be honest, I can't remember his name and I'm foruming while eating and don't want to get food all over my book. The leader of the Sapphire Guard who kept arguing that what he was doing was totally a Good action, because he was just doing his duty, and it wasn't his fault if the hobgoblins chose to react violently. The general theme of the story is about taking responsibility for your actions and doing what you can to avoid conflict, or dodging behind rationalizations that shift the blame for an outcome you wanted and help accomplish to some other party. I did feel like it dragged on a bit, though, even if I understand its narrative role.
EDIT: Commander Gin-Jun, that was it.
But yeah, looking over this again, I stand by my assessment.
Ettin: I categorically condemn physical violence, but I have no control over the left side of this body. And frankly, why should I be exposed to consequences as a result of actions taken by another ettin head? [...] I don't see any reason my freedom to run in the direction of my choosing should be hampered as a result of his unfortunate choices.
Commander: If they choose to commit violence to avenge their worthless dead, then the weight of that decision rests on their own consciences, not ours.
There's also a parallel theme of power and responsibility. The one ettin head has the power to stop the rampage, but doesn't, because he doesn't really want to stop it, and is only using excuses about personal freedom. Later in the book, when Hinjo and Zhou are talking --
Hinjo: Why should it matter who anyone's parents were?
Zhou: It shouldn't. But it totally does.
Hinjo: Maybe when I'm king I'll figure out a way to make it matter less.
Zhou: Maybe! That'd be really swell. But the thing is, you can make those plans and I can't.
So again, we have the themes of having the power to do something coming with a moral responsibility to use it, which is a very Lawful Good philosophy.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
For my money, I think it's meant to introduce the themes from the climax of later in the story. It's a deliberate mirror to the sophistry of... I'll be honest, I can't remember his name and I'm foruming while eating and don't want to get food all over my book. The leader of the Sapphire Guard who kept arguing that what he was doing was totally a Good action, because he was just doing his duty, and it wasn't his fault if the hobgoblins chose to react violently. The general theme of the story is about taking responsibility for your actions and doing what you can to avoid conflict, or dodging behind rationalizations that shift the blame for an outcome you wanted and help accomplish to some other party. I did feel like it dragged on a bit, though, even if I understand its narrative role.
EDIT: Commander Gin-Jun, that was it.
But yeah, looking over this again, I stand by my assessment.
Ettin: I categorically condemn physical violence, but I have no control over the left side of this body. And frankly, why should I be exposed to consequences as a result of actions taken by another ettin head? [...] I don't see any reason my freedom to run in the direction of my choosing should be hampered as a result of his unfortunate choices.
Commander: If they choose to commit violence to avenge their worthless dead, then the weight of that decision rests on their own consciences, not ours.
Also, there's other mirroring:
Ettin: And frankly, why should I be exposed to consequences as a result of actions taken by another ettin head? He is obviously mentally damaged and not representative of this Ettin as a whole.
Gin-jun: So you defend this savage who has vowed to kill our people?
O-chul: No. I defend the one next to him, who has not.
The question is, in both cases, is it right to hurt the innocent if that's the only way to stop the guilty? Can you separate the two and harm one without harming the other?
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DSCrankshaw
Also, there's other mirroring:
Ettin: And frankly, why should I be exposed to consequences as a result of actions taken by another ettin head? He is obviously mentally damaged and not representative of this Ettin as a whole.
Gin-jun: So you defend this savage who has vowed to kill our people?
O-chul: No. I defend the one next to him, who has not?
The question is, in both cases, is it right to hurt the innocent if that's the only way to stop the guilty?
Good point. These are interesting in that they serve as somewhat of an inversion of each other, wherein the soon-to-be Supreme Leader is portrayed as an innocent, and the Right Ettin Head is portrayed as complicit. It's not the story contradicting itself, though -- it's meant to highlight the difference between being complicit in violence while claiming innocence, and genuinely working for peace. The Right Ettin Head is highlighted as having the ability to help stop the conflict but choosing not to, while the future Supreme Leader is clearly using every means at his disposal to do so, up to and including flat-out mass poisoning. (What's interesting is that the FSL is definitely not portrayed as any Good alignment -- I'd argue Neutral at best and honestly probably Evil -- but the theme here is that the two sides are those who want a war vs. those who do not, not Good vs. Evil, which is an interesting theme in a paladin-centric story.)
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
For my money, I think it's meant to introduce the themes from the climax of later in the story. It's a deliberate mirror to the sophistry of Commander Gin-Jun.
That was my argument in the PDF discussion thread back when. It's a microcosm of the later conflict, foreshadowing what is to come.
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Originally Posted by
DSCrankshaw
Also, there's other mirroring:
Ettin: And frankly, why should I be exposed to consequences as a result of actions taken by another ettin head? He is obviously mentally damaged and not representative of this Ettin as a whole.
Gin-jun: So you defend this savage who has vowed to kill our people?
O-chul: No. I defend the one next to him, who has not?
The question is, in both cases, is it right to hurt the innocent if that's the only way to stop the guilty? Can you separate the two and harm one without harming the other?
That's not a mirror, though; the right ettin head had exactly as much control as the left ettin head did. If the right head honestly did not wholly support and agree with the actions of the left head, the ettin would not be able to do most of its actions. Its excuses for doing so when pointed out (eg "I happen to feel like running in the direction that will enable the right head to carry out its rampage which I claim to disagree with") are nothing more than gaslighting under the guise of innocence. Meanwhile, the goblins who do not want war do not have the direct power to immediately stop those who do; if they did, then the cleric would have no need to murder the Supreme Leader and entourage.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
That was my argument in the PDF discussion thread back when. It's a microcosm of the later conflict, foreshadowing what is to come.
That's not a mirror, though; the right ettin head had exactly as much control as the left ettin head did. If the right head honestly did not wholly support and agree with the actions of the left head, the ettin would not be able to do most of its actions. Its excuses for doing so when pointed out (eg "I happen to feel like running in the direction that will enable the right head to carry out its rampage which I claim to disagree with") are nothing more than gaslighting under the guise of innocence. Meanwhile, the goblins who do not want war do not have the direct power to immediately stop those who do; if they did, then the cleric would have no need to murder the Supreme Leader and entourage.
I would argue that they do serve as foils, though -- the ettin head's sophistry exists in part to show what fake innocence looks like (to highlight the actual innocence of the hobgoblins uninvolved in the conflict), in part to foreshadow the "oh, but I'm not doing anything Evil technically" games of the Commander, and in part to highlight the idea that allowing violence to continue when you have the power to stop it is the same as participating in it. It's a general encapsulation of the themes of the story to follow.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
That's not a mirror, though; the right ettin head had exactly as much control as the left ettin head did. If the right head honestly did not wholly support and agree with the actions of the left head, the ettin would not be able to do most of its actions. Its excuses for doing so when pointed out (eg "I happen to feel like running in the direction that will enable the right head to carry out its rampage which I claim to disagree with") are nothing more than gaslighting under the guise of innocence. Meanwhile, the goblins who do not want war do not have the direct power to immediately stop those who do; if they did, then the cleric would have no need to murder the Supreme Leader and entourage.
I was thinking it's more of a funhouse-type mirror. The dilemma is the same, at least from the viewpoint of the heroes: O-chul was very reluctant to fully engage with the Ettin. The solution is different because the circumstances are different. But that, I think, is the point--to give some depth to the question, and require some thought and wisdom on the part of the one making the decision.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DSCrankshaw
I was thinking it's more of a funhouse-type mirror. The dilemma is the same, at least from the viewpoint of the heroes: O-chul was very reluctant to fully engage with the Ettin. The solution is different because the circumstances are different. But that, I think, is the point--to give some depth to the question, and require some thought and wisdom on the part of the one making the decision.
That's actually a pretty awesome reading of it. I like it.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
What is the narrative purpose of the ettin encounter? It's the only part of the book that I found tedious. The rest was very enjoyable to read. Was the purpose to show that the ranger was a serious combatant?
Aside from how it highlights the story's recurring element of "malice with an indifferent facade" by physically tying it to an actively violent agent....The scene also sets up Zhou's experience with digging graves and avoiding trouble, Saha's general demeanor, and the general group dynamic of the three of them (which Zhou directly lampshades)...so when Hinjo comes along shortly thereafter, Saha stops being "the outsider" without even needing to draw attention to it.
It's a pretty concentrated scene.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Jasdoif
Aside from how it highlights the story's recurring element of "malice with an indifferent facade" by physically tying it to an actively violent agent....The scene also sets up Zhou's experience with digging graves and avoiding trouble, Saha's general demeanor, and the general group dynamic of the three of them (which Zhou directly lampshades)...so when Hinjo comes along shortly thereafter, Saha stops being "the outsider" without even needing to draw attention to it.
Please conjugate the verb "to lampshade" for me so that I can better understand what looks like a good answer.
For all of the other respondents, thanks for the effort.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
Something else I noticed on a reread. O-Chul reasons that the mystery group attacking the goblins is a group of nobles. He later discovers the Sapphire Guard, and even later the fact that they were, at the time, all nobles.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
Please conjugate the verb "to lampshade" for me so that I can better understand what looks like a good answer.
I'm reasonably certain "lampshade" is the verb commonly associated with performing a "lampshade hanging"; where an unlikely story element (a team-forming display that's mostly O-Chul's actions) is addressed as unlikely in the story itself (Zhou's claim that the encounter "brought us together as a team" being disregarded by Saha's "we are not a team")...usually for the purpose of getting the audience to accept it (since the author isn't trying to fool the audience about the plausibility, if the characters themselves expresses doubts of the plausibility).
In retrospect, this might not be a very clearcut/accurate case to use the term...but Zhou going on to name the story roles they fulfill, puts enough narrative self-awareness in the comment that I think "lampshades" is still passable.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Jasdoif
In retrospect, this might not be a very clearcut/accurate case to use the term...but Zhou going on to name the story roles they fulfill, puts enough narrative self-awareness in the comment that I think "lampshades" is still passable.
OK, I guess that fits well enough.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
Please conjugate the verb "to lampshade" for me.
Infinitive: To lampshade
Present: Lampshade
3rd person present: Lampshades
Simple past: Lampshaded
Past participle: Lampshaded
Present participle: Lampshading
(Sorry, I just had to) ;)
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
It took several tries, because it's a swirly font and spread over several panels, but the graffiti behind Lien when she's talking to the paladin Yu reads "Democracy Now!"
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Rogar Demonblud
It took several tries, because it's a swirly font and spread over several panels, but the graffiti behind Lien when she's talking to the paladin Yu reads "Democracy Now!"
Speaking of Yu...what odds do we put on it being short for Yunji?
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Jasdoif
Speaking of Yu...what odds do we put on it being short for
Yunji?
2-to-1 against, at least for me. Could be the case, but names don't seem to be shortened habitually among Azurites in general.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
Yunji's actually a preexisting member of the Sapphire Guard, from a WaXP bonus strip. Spoiler: Very minor book spoiler
Show
She and another paladin named Jiaya were going to go to dinner with Miko, but Miko started complaining about the proposed restaurant's moral character, so they pretended to be dating to get out of it (and are seen actually making out in a later bonus strip.)
I haven't gotten this yet (planning to due to all the positive praise, but I do already have the Kickstarter PDFs), so I'd have to check when I do to see if they're actually the same.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Takver
Lien's parents were fishers, right, and not some kind of Noble Fishers? So in between O-Chul's story and Lien's story, Shojo managed to change the Sapphire Guard to the point where they were actively recruiting outside of nobility.
Yeah, I never made that connection until I read O-Chul's story, back when it first came out. But there was always a story waiting to be told there.
Shojo says in #277 that the Sapphire Guard was formed from "the noblest samurai," with samurai having already been explained as a position in the social hierarchy in #209.
But Lien was clearly working class, from her second major scene in the comics. That was in #473, where she says she worked on the docks cleaning fish as a child. And then in 572f, the bonus comic, she says she'd rather have a boyfriend who works with his hands for a living, not a silver spooned aristocrat.
So when Shojo says to O-Chul, "They're nobles, you know. Every last one of them," it was a major shock for me. I had gotten so used to the thoroughly working class Lien as one of the major Sapphire Guard characters, for years and years, that I totally forgot that the original Sapphire Guard was formed entirely from nobles. And that the transition would logically be more complicated than just them deciding to open it up to commoners at some point.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
One comment to the O'Chul story: I really liked the Mrs Kapoor character in the sense that she is a better Belkar.
I mean, you can tell similar mean jokes with her as with Belkar, since she also is pragmatical and cycnical, yet she fits better into an adventuring group than Belkar. With Belkar, one often ask themselves "Why do they still put up with that a*shole?" and tries to come up with rule of funny or justifications that sound weird, but Mrs Kapoor just fits. I think she is well written.
The whole story was well written - with two exceptions.
I didn't like the scene with the two headed giant much.
And I, just as DaggerPen said, found the Miko thing *really* too "on the nose.
Apart from that, really good story.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
I got it Friday, enjoyed the read.
What is the narrative purpose of the ettin encounter? It's the only part of the book that I found tedious. The rest was very enjoyable to read. Was the purpose to show that the ranger was a serious combatant?
In addition to what everyone else said, not everything needs to be deeply laden with meaning. Sometimes an author might just feel like telling some ettin jokes.
But not even I think the scene is as simple as that. When I first read the scene, I couldn't help but note some real-world parallels with another group who allies with a certain someone while pretending that the actions that someone takes are not their fault, nothing to do with them even though that group did have the power to act against that someone.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Stabbey
In addition to what everyone else said, not everything needs to be deeply laden with meaning. Sometimes an author might just feel like telling some ettin jokes.
But not even I think the scene is as simple as that. When I first read the scene, I couldn't help but note some real-world parallels
... we are not going there, but that is part of why I found that scene tedious. It was clumsily executed if that is what was being made the object of satire.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
I never saw the parallel between any group myself (and wholeheartedly second not going into it even if it is more clear to others), but what about it was tedious? It was two pages, and the problem was both presented and resolved fairly quickly, as well as foreshadowing the main conflict that would later take place.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Stabbey
In addition to what everyone else said, not everything needs to be deeply laden with meaning. Sometimes an author might just feel like telling some ettin jokes.
But not even I think the scene is as simple as that. When I first read the scene, I couldn't help but note some real-world parallels with another group who allies with a certain someone while pretending that the actions that someone takes are not their fault, nothing to do with them even though that group did have the power to act against that someone.
As a friendly note, you may want to tread lightly here. It's my understanding from skimming the How the Paladin Got His Scar thread that this debate derailed that thread into a flame war that resulted in a number of infractions and permanent bans.
But for my two cents here: if the morality in this story at any point reminds you of a real world situation, good. Morality lessons and discussions in fiction are meaningless if they can't be applied to real morality. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's what The Giant had in mind when he wrote the scene, and even if he did, the forum rules still forbid real world politics, etc. The nice thing about fictionalized contexts is that it lets us have discussions about things like the responsibility of power, the scapegoating of an entire group, taking consequences for your own actions, etc. without having to discuss real world hot button issues. If we then apply that critical lens to our own lives, and see opportunities to be improve ourselves, then mission accomplished - but there's no need to get into a flame war here.
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I never saw the parallel between any group myself (and wholeheartedly second not going into it even if it is more clear to others), but what about it was tedious? It was two pages, and the problem was both presented and resolved fairly quickly, as well as foreshadowing the main conflict that would later take place.
For my money - and I say this as someone who liked the message of the book very much and has argued extensively that it serves a clear role in setting up the conflicts of the book - I didn't care for that scene because it was just extremely cartoonish. The rest of the story was full of nuanced moral conflicts between people behaving like people. The right ettin head, however, was behaving in a really exaggerated fashion. I get that OOTS is often a parody, but it felt tonally out of place to me, and more in line with the gags of very early OOTS than the more 3d characterization of the rest of the story.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
As a friendly note, you may want to tread lightly here. It's my understanding from skimming the How the Paladin Got His Scar thread that this debate derailed that thread into a flame war that resulted in a number of infractions and permanent bans.
I reread a good bit of it, actually, and looks like it didn't have any bans and i couldnt see anything that was scrubbed. This wasn't a thorough re-read, though, so I may be off there.
In any event, I wouldn't call it a flame war; it wasn't terribly different (though maybe a little less civil, or a little more intense) than Hilgya threads with The_Weirdo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
For my money - and I say this as someone who liked the message of the book very much and has argued extensively that it serves a clear role in setting up the conflicts of the book - I didn't care for that scene because it was just extremely cartoonish. The rest of the story was full of nuanced moral conflicts between people behaving like people. The right ettin head, however, was behaving in a really exaggerated fashion. I get that OOTS is often a parody, but it felt tonally out of place to me, and more in line with the gags of very early OOTS than the more 3d characterization of the rest of the story.
OK, I can see that. It didn't bother me any since Zhou was fairly oddball and goofy herself throughout, but I can absolutely understand where you're coming from on that.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I reread a good bit of it, actually, and looks like it didn't have any bans and i couldnt see anything that was scrubbed. This wasn't a thorough re-read, though, so I may be off there.
In any event, I wouldn't call it a flame war; it wasn't terribly different (though maybe a little less civil, or a little more intense) than Hilgya threads with The_Weirdo.
I'll cop to skimming the thread, seeing that it was starting to turn somewhat heated, and then taking earlier comments indicating that infractions and possible bans happened at face value.
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OK, I can see that. It didn't bother me any since Zhou was fairly oddball and goofy herself throughout, but I can absolutely understand where you're coming from on that.
Zhou was definitely pretty oddball, but she still had some depth, etc. Obviously, your mileage may vary, and as you said, it was only two pages in an overall great story. I just spoke up because I wanted to represent the point of view which didn't care for the sequence for reasons entirely unrelated to purported real world parallels.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
I reread a good bit of it, actually, and looks like it didn't have any bans and i couldnt see anything that was scrubbed. This wasn't a thorough re-read, though, so I may be off there.
In any event, I wouldn't call it a flame war; it wasn't terribly different (though maybe a little less civil, or a little more intense) than Hilgya threads with The_Weirdo.
OK, I can see that. It didn't bother me any since Zhou was fairly oddball and goofy herself throughout, but I can absolutely understand where you're coming from on that.
While there were no bans, there was a clear warning from a mod to drop that particular issue, after which it was dropped. So probably best to abide by the warning.
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
I'll cop to skimming the thread, seeing that it was starting to turn somewhat heated
Probably for the best.:smallwink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ariko
While there were no bans, there was a clear warning from a mod to drop that particular issue, after which it was dropped. So probably best to abide by the warning.
Indeed. Thanks!
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
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Originally Posted by
Stabbey
When I first read the scene, I couldn't help but note some real-world parallels with another group..
godsflunky's internal monologue: "Uh-oh."
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Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
.It was clumsily executed if that is what was being made the object of satire.
internal monologue: "Yup, here it comes..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ariko
While there were no bans, there was a clear warning from a mod to drop that particular issue, after which it was dropped. So probably best to abide by the warning.
"...Okay, a voice of caution, at least..."
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Originally Posted by
Peelee
Indeed. Thanks!
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*end of thread so far*
"Huh! That didn't go where I thought it was going. ...Well, good!"
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Re: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished - The Discussion Thread (Unmarked Spoilers!)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
I didn't care for that scene because it was just extremely cartoonish. The rest of the story was full of nuanced moral conflicts between people behaving like people. The right ettin head, however, was behaving in a really exaggerated fashion. I get that OOTS is often a parody, but it felt tonally out of place to me, and more in line with the gags of very early OOTS than the more 3d characterization of the rest of the story.
Far more elegantly put than my take of "tedious" so I applaud your eloquence. :smallsmile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DaggerPen
Zhou was definitely pretty oddball, but she still had some depth, etc.
Zhou was, for my money, a well presented case of The Misfit: many stories have misfits in them who finally find their place in life, though along the way try mightily but keep messing up. She does her best, but here best isn't usually very effective. (Until of course near the end when she tries her best and saves a life). In the end, Zhou finds her place in life, or at least a good place for her. That O'Chul takes her along on his journey is yet another aspect of O'Chul recognizing the value in people whom others may dismiss or take lightly. I think that she's placed nicely to add another layer of depth to O'Chul's character and various outstanding qualities.