Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

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Originally Posted by Manticoran

...Color me super confused.

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If you play Battle-Forged, your entire army must be Battle-Forged. That means you must use the rules for selecting Detachments and Formations, complete with all minimum requirements.

If you play with Unbound, your entire army must be Unbound, where a special exception is made for Formations.

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Doesn't this mean I can take any number of Fast Attack, Elite, HQ, or Heavy Support that I want to, since they can't score anyway, and Tyranids automatically get the "Ideal Mission Commander" benefit just for being Tyranids?

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Wrong. If you are playing Battle-Forged, you are limited to the Detachment specs. By which I assume you mean a CAD. If you want to take multiple CADs, you can theoretically have unlimited slots, but only if you pay your HQ and Troops taxes.

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Or that if I want to take allies that are NOT Troops, there's no reason to take an HQ or Troops from the list unless I want the Troops to be able to score?

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Only if you have to, like when using Detachments, but not when Unbound.

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So technically I could take a LRuss from the... Astra Militarum looks like what Imperial Guard have turned into... and put it in my Army and outside of the "Come the Apocalypse" problems there are no issues?

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Your entire army is Unbound, or none of it is.

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Coming from the very restricted FoCs, you can see why this amount of openness in Army builds is super exciting/terrifying/confusing to me.

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Not really. It's pretty self-explanatory. Unbound lets you do whatever you want. Battle-Forged armies must be organised into Detachments. If you can't organise your units into Detachments, then you are Unbound.

To clarify: Scoring works differently now. Everything scores, but Troops from a CAD/Allied detachment have Objective Secured, that means that if they always control objectives unless the contesting enemy has the rule. Also, you don't get Ideal Commander unless your Warlord is in a CAD, so no you don't get it by ignoring detachments (unless there's a nid rule I missed). Technically any list could have any amount of different factions in it, so long as you can work things out properly (so if your army is Bound, you need to get the proper detachment/formation for it), and yes Nids can have friends now (so long as they don't get too close).

Finally, something to keep in mind is that people tend to be a bit leery of using Unbound rules, and stick with the detachments+formations system, although that is meta/player-dependent, and by the sounds of it you wouldn't be that guy who uses it to be a ****. Still, even without going to Unbound rules, this stuff does open up a ton of options and fun stuff.

Okay, so, in my endeavors to buy in cheap, I've come across a bargain that looks good to me, but it's a fixer-upper since it hasn't been transported in a padded case ever.

Used Tau Army, $400 (US)

Spoiler

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Fire Warriors x78 (Seller is checking for missing figures to bring to 80)
Pathfinders x15 (same with the pathfinders to reach 20.)
Stealth Team x6
Kroot Carnivores x64
Krootox x1
Kroot Hounds x1
Ethereal x1
Shadowsun x1
Darkstrider (Mostly finished Fire Blade Conversion, could pass as either) x1
Riptide x1
Hammerhead x1
Broadside x6
Piranha x4
Drones (various) x24 (Seller has bits for more, unsure of quantity)
Drones (Recon) x1
6th edition Codex
An as of yet unseen bit stockpile.

Is this a reasonable deal for an army with above average damage (Riptide's arm snapped off, about 1/3rd of the infantry have damaged guns or disconnected arms, etc.), missing bits, and range from unpainted to terribly painted? I'm comfortable repairing, stripping, and painting it all, but I'm not sure how to factor those things into the price of an army.

Also, how badly will the lack of Crisis suits hurt my building options in the 500~750 point range? I'm still learning what everything is and how to use it.

How competitive is Unbound against a CAD list? Having your opponent's Troops override your ability to contest points seems like it would be a pretty major drawback, at least based on the scenarios that were common when I was playing.

Also, apparently Tyranids DO have formations, is there some kind of central list to figure out where to find all of these? I see a Leviathan Campaign book, but not sure where else I need to be checking. Found something that seems pretty key to Tyranids in WD41, the Tyrannocytes and Mycolid Spores.

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Originally Posted by Manticoran

How competitive is Unbound against a CAD list? Having your opponent's Troops override your ability to contest points seems like it would be a pretty major drawback, at least based on the scenarios that were common when I was playing.

Also, apparently Tyranids DO have formations, is there some kind of central list to figure out where to find all of these? I see a Leviathan Campaign book, but not sure where else I need to be checking. Found something that seems pretty key to Tyranids in WD41, the Tyrannocytes and Mycolid Spores.

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Note that Unbound Armies can get Objective Secured in other ways, such as taking Pedro Kantor. Also, Unbound Armies can use Formations, which are a specific, more restrictive form of Detachment.

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Originally Posted by Manticoran

How competitive is Unbound against a CAD list?

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Depends how you play Unbound, doesn't it? Generally, the reason to use Unbound is because you want to spam one single unit, and don't want to take any others. Which looks pretty broken on paper, since why would you even bother about Scoring when you can just table your opponent every game? In practice, that's not the case, because your opponents should be building their armies correctly, and in major tournaments where we have seen Unbound allowed, it's still the Battle-Forged armies that win.

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Having your opponent's Troops override your ability to contest points seems like it would be a pretty major drawback, at least based on the scenarios that were common when I was playing.

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Depends entirely on your meta. You have to remember that Battle-Forged doesn't just mean Detachments, it means Formations, as well. There are a lot of good Formations and Detachments out there - the Necron Decurion is one very good example - that don't need Objective Secured to win. You as a player, during deployment, know what your opponent has. Does he have Objective Secured units? Do you not? How 'bout you target down his Objective Secured units first, so that it doesn't matter?

You are allowed to read your opponent's army list - and if they don't have one, you shouldn't be playing against them. This isn't WHFB, and there aren't any secrets. How does your opponent win the game? How does your opponent make you lose the game? What are your opponent's biggest threats? What are your biggest threats? How do you deal with your opponent's threats? How is he going to be dealing with yours?
'Objective Secured' is simply another 'threat' to armies that don't have it. Either you can deal with it, or you can't.

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Also, apparently Tyranids DO have formations, is there some kind of central list to figure out where to find all of these? I see a Leviathan Campaign book, but not sure where else I need to be checking. Found something that seems pretty key to Tyranids in WD41, the Tyrannocytes and Mycolid Spores.

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BoK Formation Compendium
BoK Detachment Compendium

Remembering that Formations may be used in Unbound lists.

...So, I can take the Leviathan Detachment AND a CAD, right? For up to 5 HQ, 9 Troops, and 6 of everything else?

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Originally Posted by Manticoran

...So, I can take the Leviathan Detachment AND a CAD, right? For up to 5 HQ, 9 Troops, and 6 of everything else?

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Yes. Five Hive Tyrants is indeed a list that exists.

Welp. That's gross. From what I understand, FMC have gotten even more dumb than when I was playing last. I never much liked the "Massive number of Monstrous Creatures" lists though, it seemed just so out of character with the unending tide of Dudes I expect to get from my 'nidz. Well, that or Genestealers. I have over 60 Genestealers just because at one point I was running a 1500 point list that was MOSTLY Genestealers.

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Originally Posted by Manticoran

...So, I can take the Leviathan Detachment AND a CAD, right? For up to 5 HQ, 9 Troops, and 6 of everything else?

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As long as you have at least 2 HQs and 5 troops. Not sure why you would though, CADs just seem better than Hive Fleet detachments and you'd be constantly confused about which of your squads had objective secured and which didn't.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

As long as you have at least 2 HQs and 5 troops. Not sure why you would though, CADs just seem better than Hive Fleet detachments and you'd be constantly confused about which of your squads had objective secured and which didn't.

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Or you give the obsec ones a different paint job to the non-obsec ones.

Back on the subject of Orks, the Ork Kill Bursta (IA:A) tank gives them some much-needed ranged D firepower, base cost 400 points. AV14 front, 7HP, IWND, and transport capacity 12 so you can put some Meks in it to keep it fixed.

What do competitive-to-semi-competitive Tau lists look like these days? I've dug my old models out of the box in my room and I'm curious as to how much I'd need to spend to bring them to modern standards.

I've got about forty fire warriors, a bunch of pathfinders, and a box of kroot, plus nine suits (three plasma gun, three missile pod, two blaster and a flamer) and two commanders. (Plus a pair of skyrays/hammerheads somewhere.)

Tau don't seem to have much that can deal with Knights, other than spamming fusion guns. I know I'll need a riptide and some broadsides for starters, but will I need two more riptides and six more suits before I'm playing in the big leagues?

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Originally Posted by Vaz

Incorrect, you can take multiple CAD. Regardless of chapter tactics. Bear in mind that double FoC died after 6th, with FoC's replaced by Detachments (which have FoC's), Formations, Dataslates, and "host" style Detachments.

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I meant Dual CAD, since CAD and Force org are effectively the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

As long as you have at least 2 HQs and 5 troops. Not sure why you would though, CADs just seem better than Hive Fleet detachments and you'd be constantly confused about which of your squads had objective secured and which didn't.

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Because flyrants are incredible and easily the best thing in the Tyranid book, to the point of being the only thing really keeping them competative at the pointy end of things? While your "troops" are 15 points per slot and don't give up VP when killed and can Str8 AP3 against anything, even fliers?

5 flyrants and the required 5 spores are 1275 points. You can fit an aweful lot of stuff into the remaining points value for 'nids, like lictors, mawlocks, hive guard, hoards of gaunts, ripper swarms for DS obsec units, venomthropes for 2+ cover, a VSG to start your flyrants on the table under the bubble etc.

ION:

We played 3 games of the assassinorium game this evening and a fantastic time was had by all. The first 2 games were fairly easy, with no-one dieing and everyone ganking the sorceror, but the 3rd game we tried to race the calidus around to find the teleportarium and didn't find the control centre 'till last, activating every damn cultist and space marine, then getting royally screwed by a turn where we couldn't shoot, sprint or act more than once. I sacrificed my eversor to attract every cultist on the board to allow the other 3 to teleport to the chamber, but eventually fell to a lucky pair of 6's and couldn't FNP either of them away. My teammates were busy being reckless in the other room and got the calidus killed after only putting a single wound on the sorceror and the culexus died to overwatch, with the vindicare and his blind grenade stunning the lord long enough to deal with 1 marine and then pop the lord 2 turns from completeing the ritual.

Huge, huge fun with 5 people, though I think it would still be OK with 2-4, but it strikes me as pretty lacklustre with only a single person playing. Definately one to grab out when you're sinking beers with some mates. A++, would assassinate again.

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Originally Posted by Drasius

I meant Dual CAD, since CAD and Force org are effectively the same thing.

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They're really not. To someone new to 7th, CAD and FOC mean totally different things. A CAD's FOC just happens to look an awful lot like the FOC from 3rd-6th Ed.

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Originally Posted by Drasius

5 flyrants and the required 5 spores are 1275 points.

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You could easily do the same thing with 3 CADs. Or 2 CADs and one of the numerous flyrant formations.

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Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton

You could easily do the same thing with 3 CADs. Or 2 CADs and one of the numerous flyrant formations.

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It's a big deal because it still works in tournaments that allow two Detachments only, and where each Detachment is Unique.

I've been looking through a copy of IA13: WMotLatD and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Ferrus Infernum Dreadnought.

For those unfamiliar with it it's a BS/WS5 Infernal Relic dreadnought for 35 points more than a Helbrute. It can take all the upgrades normal Helbrutes can plus a few extras like dedications to gods, a chance to become a daemon prince if blown up, daemonic possession+, or be turned into a chaos ironclad for the price of two plasma guns.

It's that last one I'm interested in. A Destroyer of Cities Dreadnought has FA13, a Flamestorm Cannon and an assault drill with built it heavy flamer. 3 attacks on the profile and it can pay for a dedication to khorne for Rage and Rampage, which combined with the flamestorm cannon could see a meq unit wiped out each turn it's around.

For just under 200 points is that worth bothering with or would it need a drop pod to have any chance of being useful?

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

I've been looking through a copy of IA13: WMotLatD and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Ferrus Infernum Dreadnought.

For those unfamiliar with it it's a BS/WS5 Infernal Relic dreadnought for 35 points more than a Helbrute. It can take all the upgrades normal Helbrutes can plus a few extras like dedications to gods, a chance to become a daemon prince if blown up, daemonic possession+, or be turned into a chaos ironclad for the price of two plasma guns.

It's that last one I'm interested in. A Destroyer of Cities Dreadnought has FA13, a Flamestorm Cannon and an assault drill with built it heavy flamer. 3 attacks on the profile and it can pay for a dedication to khorne for Rage and Rampage, which combined with the flamestorm cannon could see a meq unit wiped out each turn it's around.

For just under 200 points is that worth bothering with or would it need a drop pod to have any chance of being useful?

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Do you know if it's available for Khorne daemonkin? It sounds interesting.

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I've been looking through a copy of IA13: WMotLatD and I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the Ferrus Infernum Dreadnought.

For those unfamiliar with it it's a BS/WS5 Infernal Relic dreadnought for 35 points more than a Helbrute. It can take all the upgrades normal Helbrutes can plus a few extras like dedications to gods, a chance to become a daemon prince if blown up, daemonic possession+, or be turned into a chaos ironclad for the price of two plasma guns.

It's that last one I'm interested in. A Destroyer of Cities Dreadnought has FA13, a Flamestorm Cannon and an assault drill with built it heavy flamer. 3 attacks on the profile and it can pay for a dedication to khorne for Rage and Rampage, which combined with the flamestorm cannon could see a meq unit wiped out each turn it's around.

For just under 200 points is that worth bothering with or would it need a drop pod to have any chance of being useful?

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Isnt that a lot of points for something that will swiftly die to all the melta/lance weapons people are packing to deal with knights?

Or have i missed yet another meta-shift.

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Originally Posted by The Patterner

Do you know if it's available for Khorne daemonkin? It sounds interesting.

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Sadly not, none of the stuff in IA is until some errata gets pushed out to add them to Daemonkin.

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Isnt that a lot of points for something that will swiftly die to all the melta/lance weapons people are packing to deal with knights?

Or have i missed yet another meta-shift.

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It's only slightly less durable than a contemptor dreadnought and for less points while being more killy against infantry and you occasionally see contemptors getting shuffled around.

It could always be shoved in a dreadclaw in order to close quickly into a place where it can do some damage. Even if the dreadclaw gets blown up the Assault Vehicle rule specifies that the dreadnought could still charge on the following turn.

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It's only slightly less durable than a contemptor dreadnought and for less points while being more killy against infantry and you occasionally see contemptors getting shuffled around.

It could always be shoved in a dreadclaw in order to close quickly into a place where it can do some damage. Even if the dreadclaw gets blown up the Assault Vehicle rule specifies that the dreadnought could still charge on the following turn.

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Im not familiar with how the Dreadclaw works. Is it the one that lets you deepstrike down and then assult out of it in the same turn?
And if yes, how expensive would it then be to erase the single MEQ unit you would most likely be allowed to reach before the shooting started?

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Originally Posted by LeSwordfish

What do competitive-to-semi-competitive Tau lists look like these days? I've dug my old models out of the box in my room and I'm curious as to how much I'd need to spend to bring them to modern standards.

I've got about forty fire warriors, a bunch of pathfinders, and a box of kroot, plus nine suits (three plasma gun, three missile pod, two blaster and a flamer) and two commanders. (Plus a pair of skyrays/hammerheads somewhere.)

Tau don't seem to have much that can deal with Knights, other than spamming fusion guns. I know I'll need a riptide and some broadsides for starters, but will I need two more riptides and six more suits before I'm playing in the big leagues?

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Tau have almost no bad options.

Vespid are still terribad, obviously, and the fliers are fairly meh, but the rest of the codex is somewhere between decent and amazing. Our only real weakness is in hard anti-armour options. What you've got can be a pretty decent list, though not top tier.

Maybe grab an Ethereal for the Fire Warriors?

(Also, magnetise your suits. It's easy to do and lets you switch loadouts.)

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Originally Posted by lord_khaine

Im not familiar with how the Dreadclaw works. Is it the one that lets you deepstrike down and then assult out of it in the same turn?
And if yes, how expensive would it then be to erase the single MEQ unit you would most likely be allowed to reach before the shooting started?

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It's an AV12 on all facings flyer. It doesn't let you assault when it first lands, but you can hide in it and jink to make it disproportionately hard to take down and then disembark on the turn after it landed. It does have Assault Vehicle. It's best use is probably transporting melta-chosen for an alpha strike against vehicles the same way C:SM use sternguard.

Costs three times the points of a rhino to take, but it's quite a step up from the normal chaos transport options, and unlike a loyalist drop pod it can fly around the board doing small amounts of damage to things or transporting units quickly from one place to another.

The other chaos drop pod is the Kharybdis, which costs more than a land raider and carries 25 models. It also doesn't let you assault after deepstriking. Seeing as this book also contains the Storm Eagle, which costs less points and carries nearly as many models and is better armed I'm not sure I'd ever use the Kharybdis.

EDIT: Anyway, my fundamental point about the Ferrus Infernum 'naught is that it's got basically the same statline as contemptors and decimators, but focused on being better at killing than them, though lacking their saves and the decimators healing, while being cheaper than them both by about 50-60 points when built expensively.

Based on some googling a popular load out for decimators is 2 butcher cannons and dedication to nurgle, totaling 270 points, assuming no other upgrades.
Contemptors I'm having a harder time finding common gear for, but even a cheap set up is over 200 points.
A Ferrus Infernum Dreadnought with MoK, flamestorm cannon and an assault drill with heavy flamer is 185 points.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

It's an AV12 on all facings flyer. It doesn't let you assault when it first lands, but you can hide in it and jink to make it disproportionately hard to take down and then disembark on the turn after it landed. It does have Assault Vehicle. It's best use is probably transporting melta-chosen for an alpha strike against vehicles the same way C:SM use sternguard.

Costs three times the points of a rhino to take, but it's quite a step up from the normal chaos transport options, and unlike a loyalist drop pod it can fly around the board doing small amounts of damage to things or transporting units quickly from one place to another.

The other chaos drop pod is the Kharybdis, which costs more than a land raider and carries 25 models. It also doesn't let you assault after deepstriking. Seeing as this book also contains the Storm Eagle, which costs less points and carries nearly as many models and is better armed I'm not sure I'd ever use the Kharybdis.

EDIT: Anyway, my fundamental point about the Ferrus Infernum 'naught is that it's got basically the same statline as contemptors and decimators, but focused on being better at killing than them, though lacking their saves and the decimators healing, while being cheaper than them both by about 50-60 points when built expensively.

Based on some googling a popular load out for decimators is 2 butcher cannons and dedication to nurgle, totaling 270 points, assuming no other upgrades.
Contemptors I'm having a harder time finding common gear for, but even a cheap set up is over 200 points.
A Ferrus Infernum Dreadnought with MoK, flamestorm cannon and an assault drill with heavy flamer is 185 points.

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Single model units are bad in Dreadclaws because there's a 1 in 6 chance it'll just eat the thing.

CheeseGear, are you taking requests for the next 40k on a budget?
I think I remember hearing that Imperial Knights were actually cost effective? I can't remember who said it.
Is this true? A Knight Errant/Paladin seems like it costs a lot, but if I only need like 3-5 of them then it may actually be cost effective.

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Originally Posted by LeSwordfish

What do competitive-to-semi-competitive Tau lists look like these days? I've dug my old models out of the box in my room and I'm curious as to how much I'd need to spend to bring them to modern standards.

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The big issue for most armies, but especially Tau, is that pretty much all of the top-tier armies are different (which is a very good thing, and 5th Ed. actually sucked at the end) and that all Tau special weapons can only be found on Crisis Suits, ergo, competitive Tau, right now, exists as Farsight Enclaves. You pretty much need special weapons to be able to compete, which neither Fire Warriors or Kroot can have. Yes, FE also uses some Fire Warriors, and maybe a unit of Outflanking Kroot, but the main deal is being able to take Crisis Suits as Troops, which frees up your Elites slots for Riptides.

Which brings us to our next problem; Eldar. Eldar, now, are always going to be packing one - if not more! - Gargantuan Monstrous Creature that shoots with dual D weapons. If you put a Riptide on the board, the Riptide is dead inside of two turns. You might be able to survive a bit longer with judicious use of JSJ, but a Wraithknight can Jump, and get angles around LoS blockers fairly easily. The benefit, though, of a Wraithknight in your face, is that now all your Fusion Blasters are in range. Ultimately though, wisdom says to move to only two Riptides, because they're not going to last that long. Especially if the Eldar player also brings a messton of Rending Jetbikes. The important thing to note about Eldar, is that if they're running The 'Host (ditto for the Decurion), they wont have Objective Secured, so Outflank Kroot into their backline all day.

If you aren't willing to shell out for Farsight Enclaves, Tau are making the massive swing back to Kroot - remember that time when there was a worldwide shortage of Kroot? Kroot have Sniper Rounds. That's it. Tau, currently, is showing its age with no Str-D or Instant Death weapons of any sort. So how else are you going to deal with Gargantuans? En masse Sniper fire is pretty good.
EDIT: Disregard. If you need to deal with Gargantuans, move to Farsight.

EDIT 2: No. Disregard that. The idea is that yes, Sniper weapons only Wound Gargantuans on 6s, but when they do, they Rend, denying a Wraithknight its Armour Save. A Pulse Rifle, also only Wounds a Wraithknight on a '6', so there's really no difference between Sniper Rounds and Pulse Rifles, except that Pulse Rifles allows a save.

Alternatively, in the Knights metagame, Fire Warriors are lulzy because they all come with Haywire Grenades and I2, and Stomps don't happen 'til I1.
But, again, this is the problem; Gargantuans or Knights. The only unit that can deal with both effectively are Crisis Suits.

Due to the crippling lack of special weapons, it also seems that Piranhas are making their way into the meta, for 50 Point Fusion platforms, that mostly get ignored. Riptides are big and scary, and Crisis Suits have Objective Secured, so those units get targeted down first, while Piranhas get pretty much left alone and allowed to do their thing. For whatever that's worth. Last, but certainly not least, you've got Sky Rays. Three of them on the board gives you 18 Seeker Missiles, Turn 1. If you see a Wraithknight on the board, FIRE EVERYTHING! and it goes down. Sky Rays are also extremely useful for dealing with Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes at no extra cost, which you need to be able to do. Since all your Heavy slots are full of Skyrays, and you still want Broadsides, a lot of people are also running Tau Firebase Support Cadres, which are just more 'Suits, with Preferred Enemy (Marines) tacked on, which is helpful.

Basically, effective Tau are meta-dependent. They win a staggering amount of games (Torrent of Fire lists them as 55%, which actually means they're still good). But for all their win-percentage, I haven't seen them place in a tournament for while, simply because Tau do not have the capabilities to deal with everything that the competitive meta throws at it. But, on the local level, where you can tailor your Tau to one or two specific opponents, they're really good.

EDIT: Regardless of what you want to do, Sky Rays are very strong. Once they blow their Missile load, they become Markerlight platforms, which you need, because nobody is taking Pathfinders.

So this is my first crack at making a 7th edition list.

Spoiler: Tau 1500

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+++ Tau 1500 (1500pts) +++

++ Tau Empire: Codex (2013) (Combined Arms Detachment) (1500pts) ++

+ HQ (155pts) +

Commander Shadowsun (155pts) [Command-link Drone (20pts)]
····Defender of the Greater Good, Independent Character, Infiltrate, Supporting Fire

+ Elites (404pts) +

XV104 Riptide (255pts) [Ion Accelerator (5pts), 2x Shielded Missile Drone (50pts), Twin-linked Fusion Blaster, Velocity Tracker (20pts)]
····Nova Reactor, Supporting Fire

XV8 Crisis Team (149pts) [Bonding Knife Ritual (3pts)]
····Bonding Knife Ritual, Supporting Fire, Very Bulky
····Crisis Shas'ui (57pts) [2x Plasma Rifle (30pts), Target Lock (5pts)]
····Crisis Shas'ui (42pts) [Flamer (5pts), Twin-linked Burst Cannon (15pts)]
····Crisis Shas'ui (47pts) [Target Lock (5pts), Twin-linked Fusion Blaster (20pts)]

+ Troops (248pts) +

Fire Warrior Team (108pts) [12x Fire Warrior Shas'la with Pulse Rifle (108pts)]
····Supporting Fire

Kroot Carnivore Squad (140pts) [20x Kroot (120pts), Sniper Rounds (20pts)]
····Infiltrate, Move Through Cover, Stealth (Forests)

+ Fast Attack (195pts) +

Piranhas (195pts)
····Piranha (65pts) [Disruption Pod (15pts), Fusion Blaster (10pts)]
····Piranha (65pts) [Disruption Pod (15pts), Fusion Blaster (10pts)]
····Piranha (65pts) [Disruption Pod (15pts), Fusion Blaster (10pts)]

+ Heavy Support (498pts) +

Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship (130pts) [Disruption Pod (15pts), Twin-linked Smart Missile System]

Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship (130pts) [Disruption Pod (15pts), Twin-linked Smart Missile System]

XV88 Broadside Team (238pts) [Bonding Knife Ritual (3pts)]
····Bonding Knife Ritual, Extremely Bulky, Supporting Fire
····Broadside Shas'ui (85pts) [Twin-linked Heavy Rail Rifle, Twin-linked Smart Missile System, Velocity Tracker (20pts)]
····Broadside Shas'ui (85pts) [Twin-linked Heavy Rail Rifle, Twin-linked Smart Missile System, Velocity Tracker (20pts)]
····Broadside Shas'ui (65pts) [Twin-linked Heavy Rail Rifle, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]

Created with BattleScribe

Uhhh, not sure what to say about it. I mostly just like the idea of sticking shadowsun with the kroot to help them survive, I know that's a little gimmicky but I was attached to trying to use her and that seemed like a good option. I redid a lot after reading around the net and the above post, I had more broadsides and a hammer head with no skyrays. I'm mainly looking for something a little generic that I can play with till I have a better idea what I want to do with them. Anyone have any advice or things I'm doing so far wrong as to be unwholesome.

Also I'm kind of confused as to what dataslates and datasheets are but I see people refer to them occasionally, where do I find them at.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

So how else are you going to deal with Gargantuans? En masse Sniper fire is pretty good.

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They only wound Gargantuans on 6s though.

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Originally Posted by Saambell

CheeseGear, are you taking requests for the next 40k on a budget?
I think I remember hearing that Imperial Knights were actually cost effective? I can't remember who said it.
Is this true?

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Provided that you're talking about the Errant/Paladin kit and not the Warden/Gallant/Crusader kit, yes, I did say that and it's true.

5 Knights Errant are exactly 1850. No less. Typically this presents as an ALF with a Knight Detachment of 2 more Knights. It can scale down to an ALF and one Knight, where some of those Knights may be Paladins. Or it can be an ALF and Gerantius if you really fancy him. Remembering that there's no rule that says you have to spend all 1850. If you choose to go into a game with ~1500 of 1850 Points, you can totally do that. That being said, four Knights (ALF+1) fits into 1500 quite nicely too.

In $AUD, Knights Errant are 0.42 per point. Five Knights Errant (remember, not the Warden kit, checking on 5.5.2015 still has the Errant kit for sale on the webstore, no idea how long that's going to last) costs an Australian $775. We know that a not very good 1850 Marine army costs close to $700, and a middling/average 1850 Tau army costs ~$750. Remembering that those numbers are the minimum those armies need to spend, as other army list options cost more currency, or cost less points.

No idea how this plays out in a week, though. White Dwarf gave out rules for the Knight Warden at 375 Points, will the other two variants cost the same? Will GW just blanket make all Knights 375 Points? The Knight Errant and/or Paladin must be 370 Points, to fit five of them in exactly 1850, remember, since Knights don't scale very well. If one of the new three Knight variants are 370 (or less), that's viable, but the numbers shoot upwards, since with the new kit, you're paying extra for parts that you can't use (a la Grey Knight kits). Also, RUMOURS say that there's going to be Knight Relics, which you pay points for. As I've just said, any Knight that costs over 370 Points pretty much ruins the idea.

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Originally Posted by hamishspence

They only wound Gargantuans on 6s though.

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HAHA. Oh wow. I forgot. Okay. Yeah. Tau are in trouble, exactly like they were facing the old T-C'T. Yeah. My bad. Disregard. Competitive Tau (as in, those that face Eldar a lot) are jumping ship to Farsight, or Forge World. In any case, Kroot are being used because there is less and less Objective Secured in the game by the week.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

HAHA. Oh wow. I forgot. Okay. Yeah. Tau are in trouble, exactly like they were facing the old T-C'T. Yeah. My bad. Disregard. Competitive Tau (as in, those that face Eldar a lot) are jumping ship to Farsight, or Forge World. In any case, Kroot are being used because there is less and less Objective Secured in the game by the week.

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Out of curiosity, what does Forge World do for Tau that helps the situation at all? Besides the Tigershark AX-1-0, a Superheavy Flier banned in every meta I've ever seen, Tau don't really get anything out of Forge World that helps the situation. Barring the use of XV9s with Fusion Cascades (which are really just Crisis Suits in the Fast Attack slot as far as S8 shooting per point goes, only more random), which is fringe at best, the only thing that Tau have in Forge World that isn't terrible is Tetras, which while an excellent substitute for Pathfinders, don't help with the uphill battle against Eldar at all.