That would have to be one helluva trailer.
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It can be done.
Except that in the case the actual fans who actually saw the movie loved it: Cinema Score found an average rating of "A" for The Last Jedi, the same rating that The Force Awakens got. That's a non-self-selected sample of people taken in the movie theater itself, ensuring the sample is taken only from people who actually saw it. People in this thread keep citing the "user" reviews on MC/RT. Those are self-selected samples, rendering them near-meaningless as a means of sampling the viewership.
Actually, RT/MC user reviews are even worse than normal self-selected samples, because they don't take their sample from people who saw the movie. Anyone can create a free account on Rotten Tomatoes or Metacritic, and leave a review for any movie, whether they have seen it or not. Anyone can then create multiple RT/MC accounts and leave multiple reviews for a movie they haven't seen. A bot could create thousands of fake accounts and leave negative reviews.
Over in the video game world, there are actual documented cases in which a large number of people who have never played a game leave negative "user" reviews on Metacritic. This phenomenon results in a large discrepency between the Steam user revers and the Metacritic user reviews. Steam reviews are also self-selected, but they at least manage to take their sample only from people who have actually purchased the game and played it for at least five minutes. Metacritic can't even manage that much.
CinemaScore is far from perfect. For one thing, it only samples from people who see a movie opening weekend, who tend to be the most enthusiastic about a movie. This creates a grade inflation where an "A" is good, an "A-" or "B+" is mediocre, and a solid "B" is bad. Looking at the example you give, Batman vs Superman got a B from CInemaScore, while Justice League got a B+. All three Nolan Batman movies got A ratings, as did the 1989 Batman. The worst in the Batman franchise was the 1997 Batman and Robin, with a C+.
However, despite its flaws, Cinema Score is the only non-self-selected sample of real audience members who actually saw the movie. It may not be perfect, but all the other measurements we have of audience opinion are outright horrible.
Most importantly, CinemaScore is the only measurement of audience opinion which has a strong correlation with box office multiplier, which is what Disney cares about. They got a strong opening weekend, and a high cinema score rating. That's a strong indication that the overall box office numbers will be really high, regardless of what a self-selected sample of social media and forum users think.
The shield of Star Killer base has a refresh rate that was exploited in a suicide mission to skip through it by warping through. Dropping out a nano-second too late and you're deep inside the crust, warp through a nano-second wrongly timed and you smear across the shield.
Doesn't invalidate anything about the Death Star blowing up Alderaan, nobody ever says that Alderaan has such a flawed planetary shielding. There's absolutely no evidence that warp technology could've been used to destroy Alderaan.
Edit- don't get me wrong about Star Killer base. It's stupid as all hell for many reasons, but this is not one of them.
Edit: My laziness has overcome my hatred and sense of outrage over this movie's treatment of my childhood. I won't be posting in this thread anymore.
Yeah, I was disappointed enough by Into Darkness that I didn't see whatever the latest one is (also the entire 'gay Sulu' thing, I'd have been much more comfortable with say a LGBT Chekhov). Since then I've watched a lot of TOS and some TNG, and I noticed what was missing from nu-Trek.
There's no spirit of adventure. There was always something new, a new world, a new problem, a new discovery. Maybe that disappears in DSN or something, but Star Trek began as an adventure in the stars, exploring new worlds, going where no man has gone before.
This. The Extra Credits video on how a video game series can go downhill can also be applied to films.
So people liked The Force Awakens, because even if we thought it did nothing new it was at least still recognisably Star Wars. Sure, we picked it apart and complained about it ('Rey is a Mary Sue'), but I've met few people who wouldn't watch it again if offered (I nearly did, but I had coursework I needed to finish instead). We were then promised that The Last Jedi would be different, and draw less elements from Empire than TFA did from ANH (which was really the basic plot structure and some archetypes).
Then we got the adverts, and they looked like adverts for an awesome movie, promising a massive revelation that'll change the Star Wars universe for ever. So we bought the tickets.
Spoiler: I wanted this in the open but it kinda spoils the filmWhat we got was a two hour space nonbattle, an attempt to burn the franchise to the ground so they can make a new version, and a half hour battle on a planet which, for all it's faults, was the only Star Wars section of this Star Wars movie. Any response we give in the 'we didn't like it' won't register to Disney because it was called Star Wars, and therefore we bought tickets.
Now if this film had been called Fall of the Resistance and been marketed as the beginning of a new Science Fantasy universe, I'd have probably enjoyed it quite a bit more. But it wasn't Fall of the Resistance, it was Star Wars, and therefore it's most important factor in what fans will think is 'is this Star Wars'.
Plus that massive revelation we were promised? Never comes. I was expecting something like 'the original Jedi texts say that Force users should never formally organise' or 'cutting yourself off from emotion can also be a path to the dark side', but we got 'the Jedi will continue', which is a nonrevelation. We'd called that from the point the title was revealed.
EDIT: note that there is nothing wrong with liking TLJ. It's just that to a lot of us, it's not Star Wars and feels like it's trying to be Star Wars.
Also, a Star Wars movie that is 2.5 hours of pure arse would be interesting. Can we get Finn facing away from the camera at all times?
The Phantom Menace was heralded by critics and movie goers alike on the week of its opening. Hype can make bad movies good and good movies bad.
I absolutely agree that the people posting negative reviews are not trolls, they're disgruntled fans some of which got worked into the hype, some are wearing rose tinted glasses. The Last Jedi is by no means a perfect movie, it has issues with tone and pacing and certain scenes that aren't necessary and don't fit into the rest of the movie. Some bits are over too quickly and others feel like they drag.
It also suffers from spectacle creep, not as much as The Force Awakenes, but still it's there.
Overall thought the movie was a lot of fun, lovely music by John Williams: Check, Lightsabers: check, Gratuitous Space battles: check, hijinks & adventure: check & check. Will most likely see again in theater even.
Spoiler: Spoilery Thoughts/ImpressionsBits I particularly enjoyed
-Chewbacca and the Porgs were some of my favorite bits.
-"Rebel Scum" - There were cheers in my theater on this one, I may have been one of them (I can neither confirm nor deny said allegations :smallwink:).
-Luke as a bitter fallen hero, yes please. Especially after Yoda and Obi-Wan were portrayed as ultimate paragons of virtue (at least in the OT). I like my characters with some depth.
-Yoda being his quirky self with Luke, priceless. Bout fell out of my chair honestly.
-Complete subversion of expectations with how Luke will effect things. Waterlogged X-wing just waiting to be raised and used for a Big Damn Hero Entrance, complete red herring. Which also made for a nice bit of foreshadowing of the Astral Projection bit, since Luke more often than not travels by X-wing, and is shown arriving departing in one when he does.
-Possible setup for a neutral/grey Jedi Order
-Snoke's throne room, the whole aesthetic of it was just spot on for me. It felt malevolent and inhospitable and just looked fantastic.
-Science implications aside, hyperspace projectile scene was fantastic. The dead silence afterwards and just knowing that the boom was coming and it was going to be loud had me all kinds of on edge.
-I use humor as a coping mechanism myself, so having the humor amid the serious bits fit for me, its something I do myself.
Bits I didn't
-Backstabby McHackerface somehow knowing about the cloaked ships and the FO instantly knowing where to look for them.
-The continued incompetence of the bad guys. All they had to do was properly blockade backup Rebel Base and the rebellion starves out.
-The juggling of the idiot ball. There was absolutely no reason to not clue in everyone when there were so few rebels left to start with. Especially when they were all on the same.damn.ship.
-The whole light and dark rising to match the other and the implications thereof. Leads into eternal conflict territory for the setting, making nothing seem like it matters much.
-The bombers weren't B-wings. Probably my biggest let down of the movie, I was like yes! they finally brought back B-wings, zoom out, why?!?
-The inconsistent science bits. Can't signal for help from the flagship, can get a hold of whoever wherever doing whatever in a shuttle craft.
Random thoughts
-I was under the assumption that the red guard were using vibro weapons (see Force pike), which are known for being able to go toe to toe with lightsabers. It's also why they weren't full on glowing laser swords.
-For Rey & Poe I feel like they did mix & match with Han and Luke for their character designs, with Poe getting the short end of the stick. Well acted, but I hated Poe the character.
-Ending felt a bit like a cosmic reset button, left me with a bit of here we go again, much like the ending of Dance with Dragons did.
-On the burning the past to the ground bit, much as it felt like the movie talking directly to the fans with that bit, it was presented by the bad guys as the right choice. When have the bad guys ever been right about what is the right choice?
I'm sure there's more, but I think I've novelized enough at this point.
SpoilerI hated the aesthetic of Snoke's throne room. Star Wars has always been fantastic on set details. Then we have this huge homage to RotJ, and Snoke's throne room is.... red. Just flat red. There's a window thing off to the side, by the flat red. It looks like a low-budget B-movie "set." What the hell. It's so aesthetically boring.
Also, Backstabby McHackerface heard Poe tell Finn about the ships before he opened the door. Also, the ships weren't cloaked.
SpoilerI liked it better than Palpatine's black on black with a healthy side of shadow throne room. Was nice to see an evil lair that had proper lighting and an actual color scheme.
Didn't catch that bit with Backstabby McHackerface, daughter had fallen asleep in my lap by that point, so was partially distracted in keeping her from falling to the floor XD
SpoilerI don't think that's the case. It isn't for me anyways. I'm not being a purist about this, though I am making the claim that the character of Luke was mangled in this movie for the sake of story.
But that might be fine if we see why Luke thought killing his nephew might be necessary. We didn't see that. He just tells us he thought Ben was too far gone and he considered murdering him in cold blood. That's out of left field for *just about anyone* let lone a hero that redeemed arguably the greatest villain in cinematic history. So an explanation is needed to justify it.
That's about the only part where I think anyone lazy enough might accuse me of being a purist or a fanboy. Beyond that, the plot was awful. We're sitting there watching one ship chase another ship, ineffectually. For hours. Just two ships, in a franchise saturated with space warfare, slowly cruising forward, with both sides telling the audience "there's nothing more we can do, we can only move forward/keep chasing". It's contrived and boring and lazy.
The character development in this movie is bizarre. Poe is the guy you call when you need to meet Max Von Sydow and recover a super important piece of secret information. He's the guy you call to defend the rebels on Takodana, and the guy that leads the attack on Starkiller base, the super duper game-changer solar system destroying weapon of doom. Poe takes that thing down.
He also happens to be the guy with the stones to fly up to a Dreadnought and stall so that you can evacuate your planet, and also agree to use super space nitro to fly into the Dreadnought's personal space and destroy its cannons.
But this entire movie he is getting torn down for being brave and competent. What did you think Poe was going to do when it's revealed that your plan is to evacuate everyone on transport ships, in plain sight of the First Order? He says they'll be sitting ducks, and you just look at him and order him off the bridge. So the guy that takes action, the guy that is called upon to do the impossible, this is the guy you're keeping in the dark, and then you're surprised that he stages a mutiny and concocts an insane plan to evade the First Order's trackers?
The thing is, this could have been an interesting plot. The ship just moving forward is incredibly stupid and boring. But Poe having to stage a mutiny to make sure Finn's and Rose's plan goes off is interesting and exciting. No one is really wrong here. The admiral is not a hero (at the time) so she doesn't think like Poe. She's in a tough spot and trying to do her best in a situation that is totally screwed. Meanwhile, Poe thinks they can get out of an impossible situation if they can pull off an even more impossible stunt. That's how he sees things. He doesn't give up. He will try anything. Two different sides, neither one right or wrong, both fighting for the same thing, but against each other. That's interesting.
What they gave us instead is a contrived set-up where we're supposed to think Poe is reckless, even though the admiral gives us no indication that she has a *good* plan to deal with the fact that they are close to running out of fuel. Instead, it looks like she's lining them up to get slaughtered. For his heroics, he gets slapped, and he gets shot with a stun gun. At least with Leia and the dreadnought it was a little more in the air, since they evacuated early and she scrapped the plan last minute. Poe could have obeyed orders but instead, knowing the lethality of the dreadnought, he went through with the plan and the writers made it a pyrrhic victory. But even this should be a discussion about following orders, not heroics. If she hadn't abandoned the plan, Poe would still be flying into a dreadnought and dodging cannon fire and TIE fighters to pave the way for the bombers. He wasn't doing anything beyond what they already agreed on. He was just doing it even though he was told they were no longer going to.
It's just ****. You've got time and resources. Do it right. We've already seen Finn being accused of cowardice and desertion, but it gets rehashed in this movie. And Rose is accusing him of it even after they've infiltrated the capital ship to take down the trackers (I know where the escape pods are, Oh I bet you do!). Even if you're taking this as Finn's arc and he has to prove his heroism, this gets taken from his as well (just like Poe, just like Luke) when Rose intervenes and instead saves him.
Nothing really occurs in this movie. The First Order is tracking the rebels, and the rebels are in danger, and they get away at the end of the movie. And we introduced Luke, and he's an *******, and he dies. Remember how the entire plot of Force Awakens is that we have to complete this map so we can find Luke and bring him back because he is the key to beating the First Order? Well we found him and he stalled Kylo Ren before dying. The end. Did he train Rey? No. He was scared. Because he tried to kill a little boy once.
Sorry, nothing to like here.
SpoilerWhere are they going to go with Episode 9? Ren and Hux don't have the skills or temperament to run the FO, and Ren's already been decisively defeated by Rey twice. There's no more NPCs to kill because they've all already been slaughtered.
SpoilerThrawn shows up to fill the power vaccum in the FO. Thrawn sends Kylo Ren to Korriban to properly train as a Sith. Rey, Finn and Poe restart the rebel alliance. Shenanigans, hijinks & epic climatic space battle ensue. Rey takes out Thrawn, Rebels win. Kylo shows up in the stinger at the head of a force of sith. What? A wookiee can dream :smalltongue:
SpoilerHere's the thing. This is even more subjective than other things people have brought up, so you are absolutely not wrong. It's your opinion, you can't be wrong. And I do agree with you that having a different color scheme was a nice touch. I was just wanting more detail than just the color. The Emperor's throne room was nowhere near practical; it had bottomless pits, catwalk railings with no visible way to get onto or off of them, computer terminals underneath therostrumpodiumdais, circular terminals with no visible way to comfortably get into them, etc. But it wasn't flat. The black on black with a healthy side of shadow had a whole lot of detail, which made it seem more real.
SpoilerOnce.
ETA: Actually, not even that. They've stalemated twice. Certainly wouldn't call their battles decisive.
Spoiler
Palpatine's throne room was more interesting furnishing wise I agree. I think part of that was that it was a makeshift throne room, what with the whole surprise overseeing of the last bits of construction for Death Star 2: Revenge of the Deathstar, and all that. Really all of Palpatine's "thrones" were re-purposed from something else (office chair, senate seat, leftover construction materials). Snoke's throne room felt like a real throne room for an evil bad dude, instead of here's where I hang out so it's my throne thing Palpatine had going on. I was actually surprised by how much Snoke's digs worked for me, with red being one of my least favorite colors.
SpoilerThat's being incredibly charitable to call the fight on Starkiller base a "stalemate". He didn't touch her even once. She hit him in the leg, the arm, physically overpowered him, disarmed him of his lightsaber, and strikes him a final time in the face. How is this a stalemate? Snoke even tells us in The Last Jedi that Rey defeated Kylo.
Now, in the Last Jedi, sure, they don't actually fight. But Rey marches onto his ship, confronts his boss, defies him, arguably gives Kylo the resolve to betray his master, then defies Kylo. She matches him in force power in the battle for the lightsaber, then recovers before he does and escapes his ship.
Both movies have done a terrible job of depicting Kylo Ren as a serious and credible threat to the good guys.
ETA: She even appears to save Kylo's life in the fight with the Guard when she tosses the lightsaber to Kylo as he struggles with the last remaining bad guy.
Saw it and was conflicted on the film by itself and loathed it as a part of a trilogy
SpoilerFor all that it dragged the plot a bit I liked everyone's character arcs with the partial exception of Luke's. I liked Luke's redemption and scene at the end but his flight in the first place and the causes thereof fly wildly counter to his story in the original trilogy. I almost would have preferred that they replaced him with Jorus C'boath or unmentioned Jedi survivor #437 rather than derailing Luke like that.
I enjoyed the space battles for all that they didn't make sense because I go into Star Wars films expecting World War 2 aircraft/naval battles IN SPACE, and they were visually appealing.
I loathed what this film did as part of a larger series, killing Snoke and leaving Kylo and Hux as the primary villains of the set leaves me completely un-invested in the series going forward. I just can't credit Kylo as an effective villain, petty and dangerous on a personal level, yes. Capable of running an interstellar war machine? Not so much.
SpoilerIn TFA, yes, she did all that while he was grievously wounded. I also suspect that his conflict over just killing Han played a small part into that as well. Regardless, you are absolutely correct in that they are not depicting Kylo Ren as a very good threat.
Spoiler: @Peelee and ThorgrimNow that you mention that thorgrim, I think that is how Snoke confirms the defeat, in the context of Han's murder.
That doesn't bode well for Kylo then, because if his inner conflict is a weakness, well... he still has it. He couldn't kill his mom. I don't think he would have killed Snoke if not for Rey leading him to that decision. And for the second time he is not interested in killing Rey so much as bringing her over to his side.
So I'm not sure what Kylo wants and I don't think he knows either. The title scroll of Episode VIIII should read "Kylo Ren has totally gotten his **** together and has more resolve than anyone in the galaxy and is totally dedicated to killing everyone that disagrees with him, even if they are Rey..."
Thanks for correcting my roman numerals lol. I was looking at it like "this is wrong" but couldn't figure it out :smallbiggrin:.
Spoiler: Off TopicishI've only read three chapters and need to dig out my copy of Heir to the Empire (the Luke bits actually bored me), but Pellaeon and Thrawn made a much more interesting villain duo to me than Snoke/Kylo or Kylo/Hux.
In his appearance Thrawn bleeds character that Smoke seems to lack, and is immediately established as a threat to the heroes via showing his tactical brilliance. He doesn't have to be big and imposing or shouty, he just has to be able to calmly reveal plans that feel like they could actually work, and rely on practical applications compared to super weapons. Thrawn would never have built Starkiller base because he knows that he'd probably get more use out of the equivalent hundred capital ships (because remember, SKB had to be both developed and built, both of which take a large number of resources).
Pellaeon is then the perfect compliment to Thrawn in a way that is missing in the ST. Pellaeon is must as competent a commander as Thrawn, but is much less skilled as a strategist. But he learns, and even before that he proves his worth as a captain. But he's also relatable, a soldier who's truly devoted to the Empire, and never gives the impression that is not with the best of impressions. In some ways he's like Luke might be of he'd gone to the Imperial Academy instead of becoming a Jedi and hero of the rebellion.
Spoiler
The sad bit is, Snoke could have been good, but we get like 2 scenes with the guy and i dont really get a feel for him. Hux is just a screaming lunatic with no tactical sense (really, no picket ships? You know Star Destroyers have Trench Run Syndrome) and Kylo is just a sad angry kid with no actual motivations and barely any training.
My god, Daala and Isard where leagues better villains than those three.
SpoilerI wanted desperately for Kylo to show some... agency. Like when Snoke was dressing him down in the throne room the first time, I wanted Kylo to simply stand up and walk to the nearest guard and murder him. Fight the rest and kill them to a man, and tell Snoke not to speak to him that way in front of anyone. Just give me something to show that Kylo is more than a mewling adolescent trying to find his way, that he stands for something, even if it's just pride.
But... nothing.
I'm not sure what they can do in the next movie to make him menacing. He was at the beginning of TFA, for me at least, but that's it. Any suggestions? I feel like without the proper build-up, it will be like Anakin igniting his lightsaber against the younglings (though Kylo did kill Han Solo ((or Han ignited the lightsaber himself :smallamused: ))).
I mean you're not wrong, but neither is he.
It always amazes me how bad the empire's is in not just tactics, but protocol. If you have six squadrons of fighters you should have at least a squadron's worth of fighters on standby to launch the moment you exit hyperspace as escort. The dreadnoughts are actually incredibly poorly defended by point defense guns even in the stats and fan groups were pointing that out from the word go.
How it should go is that as soon as you drop into realspace, you get fighters in the air, even if they're just hovering around percieved weakpoints like your rear arc or underbelly.
Oh! Okay, yeah, that makes perfect sense...and now that I think about it, it would make a lot more sense to just send the one suicide bomber, but maybe they do it the way they do because that one ship could be taken out by itself, and so they still might have to send more people? But wait, if you're travelling lightspeed, how could they shoot you down?
...I was a happier man when I didn't think this was a problem. :smallfrown:
SpoilerKylo's adolescent temper is his defining character trait, though. I went to middle school with a kid who actually acted out with the same degree of frequency and lack of concern for others; his was a case of severe Asperger's coupled with a family who simultaneously gave him whatever stuff he wanted but little in the way of emotional support, and considering what's been said about Han and Leia's lives, maybe Kylo had a similar upbringing?
Also, did him killing Snoke and half of his guards not feel like agency to you?
For the sake of consideration that multiplier is about 94 meters long. An average rebel blockade runner is like 130 meters. The average Gozanti is about 65 or so if I remember right, with the Scum and Villainy variant crime lords like to use in the rebellion era being like 20 percent longer due to a refitted front end.
So give or take all it takes is one civillian cargo freighter run by a couple of astromechs and you can bring down an imperial star destroyer. If you somehow need extra mass it has slots for cargo so just load it up with heavy metals. So with a full load one should be able to just punch through the whole thing.
If you wanted to disable the destroyer, all you would need is a few Y wings with ion torpedoes. Their proton bombs would be capable of destroying any lighter craft escorting it and going ship to ship against fighter escorts with their pintle guns.
Spoiler: Throne room guardsSo, I only saw that fight once, but my impression is that no less than 4 of them went after Supreme Leader-killing Kylo Ren, and only 2 went after the prisoner Rey. If my memory is correct, then, Rey "saving" Kylo is just a matter of her finishing off her guards before he finishes off his.
Here's the problem with using the Supremacy's overall relative size to the Raddus for gauging the hyperspace ram tactic's effectiveness: the Raddus (3.4 km long) rams its opponent not along the 60 km major axis, but off-center along the 10 km-ish minor axis (maybe 8-9 km along the impact trajectory). That drops the penetration multiplier down all the way to around 3 or so (the Raddus did over-penetrate its target, but we don't know by how much) assuming similar densities between the two warships. Something that also completely obliterated a Dreadnought about the size of the Supremacy's wound? Proton bombs thrown at critical systems by a bomber only 30m long.
I think the hyperspace ram is fine as it was presented in the film: suicidal tactic for a ship that's usually better off running away (and it usually can run away, since it still has its hyperdrive) and requires a distraction in order to work at all since otherwise the target might shoot out the engines before the hyperdrive finishes charging.
Saw it. Loved it. Not much else to say other than that though. Interested in what's to come next.
Spoiler: Kylo Thoughts, VERY spoilerHere's what we know about Ben's upbringing.
Raised by 2 heroes of the Republic. People always telling stories about what they did, how awesome they were. His grandfather's a legendary badass (horrible person, but strong, and people respected his power) who has similar larger than life stories everywhere.
He's strong in the force. Really strong. Combined with the stories about his parents and grandfather many people likely expect him to do great things.
He was sent to his Uncle Luke to be trained in the force. But particularly with Anakin's fall, Luke fears the influence of the Dark Side.
So he's being told to turn away from the power he sense when he feels like people around him are expecting him to do great and strong things, like he needs to be STRONG, it's his birthright, he comes from a line of LEGENDS. And now he's being told to turn away, to hide his frustration.
He's also being influenced by Snoke. My impression is that influence takes the form of stoking his frustrations at being "held back from the power that's his to claim."
Then he wakes to Luke standing over him, lightsaber drawn. His parents shipped him off to his Uncle, his Uncle has turned on him, he's living in the shadow of his Grandfather's strength
and fearful respect. He has nothing. He lashes out at Luke, and burns the place down.
So now he goes off to Snoke, all good, right? Well, Snoke doesn't really go in for the comforting thing. Highlighting his mistakes, his wavering control. Even in this new life Kylo Ren doesn't have the respect he seeks. The First Order crew is laughing at him, Snoke's belittling him, he WILL be strong, he WILL be feared, he WILL prove his strength to the parents he feels abandoned him!
When he once again meets his father, he expected to be angry. To show how strong he had become. But instead he sees his dad. He sees the family he thought had abandoned him,
reaching out. and when the killing blow comes, it doesn't leave him with the feeling of victory he expected.
Snoke, of course, belittles this "weakness." This display of emotion outside of being a cold killing machine. Riding on the coattails of his grandfather's reputation, trying to look cool in "that stupid mask." And Kylo lashes out in response, destroying the link he had made to his grandfather, the symbol of who he was "supposed" to be.
Angry, lost, he's connected by the force to Rey. She has power. She's been abandoned. Her reaction when he shares the story of Luke shows that she understands the feeling of betrayal.And the Force has linked them, surely there's a reason.
And then it turns out Snoke was using him, using his suppressed desire to belong, to draw Rey to him. Didn't even have the courtesy to fill Kylo in, just considered him a pawn to throw around. He turns the lightsaber to his true enemy.
And then, after the battle, he tells Rey what he knows. She was abandoned by her parents like he felt abandoned by his. He still feels the shadow of his relatives, his past, the expectations and pressures he put on himself due to that. But he's done Rey a favor. She doesn't have that weight. She's strong on her own merits, not due to heritage or destiny. Both split from their family, they have each other. Together, they can rule the galaxy, she just needs to join him, and he'll finally have someone who respects him.
And then she declines, and Kylo falls back into violent lashing out. Needs to just go in and wipe the Rebels out. The Falcon shows up, his FATHER's ship, and he has more attention put on shooting it down ("they really hate that ship"). Uncle Luke shows up, the man who BETRAYED him, who was supposed to PROTECT him, and the rage becomes blinding.
Saw it. Loved it. Felt the themes were extremely strong everywhere. The story was a big deconstruction of what didnt work with Star Wars; the hangups fanboys have over this verse.
I will come back for future argumentation about this later when i.will have the time to write all down.
Btw. Casino's plot was over so damn fast, i dont see whats the big hangup.
In WWII the Kamikaze fighters would suicide into aircraft carriers to take them out. Aircraft carriers remained useful despite this specific weakness and battle groups were formed around the idea of protecting the aircraft carriers. Star Destroyers are somewhat analogous to aircraft carriers as they are used to carry enormous numbers of TIE fighters.
How come those who liked the movie do not have much to say in detail, while those who hated it can detail every twist and detail they hated.
What is the difference between a “fanboy hangup” and legitimate criticism of the movie I wonder. I wait with bated breath...
Star Destroyers are Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, troop transports, and Portable Missle Silos all in one. Star Destroyers where the Empires "Rocks fall and everybody dies" weapon.
The idea was that their shields where so powerful that it just removed tons of ships from the equation period.
Well, This guy didn't like it
Since it's a very spoilery review I'll try to snip out the critical bits.
On a subplot:Quote:
Originally Posted by Federalist Review
Rey + Luke:Quote:
a dangerous and needlessly complicated mission that ultimately goes nowhere. All this culminates in a series of climactic confrontations, each one louder and more CGI-laden than the last.
But enough with the story, let's talk execution!Quote:
Meanwhile, the desperate Rey (played by Daisy Ridley in one of the few competent performances) attempts to persuade the self-exiled Luke Skywalker (Mark Hamill, in the other competent performance) to return to the fight.
...Quote:
If You Thought the Story Was Bad, Check the Execution
Even a cursory reading of the above reveals a plot so convoluted and bloated as to exhaust the potential viewer. (It is also the reason for the film’s impossibly inflated running time of an excruciating two and a half hours.) But the story is further laid low by the stunning incompetence of its execution.
To name a few of its many flaws: The script is laden with clichéd dialogue that is, at times, simply excruciating. [subplot] and their entire quest ultimately leads nowhere, leaving the plot thread dangling before the perplexed viewer and wasting almost a half-hour of screen time.SpoilerLuke's angry alienation is reinforced at every point before he inexplicably has a change of heart and shows up to save the day.
The entire story is based around a slow-speed pursuit between ships capable of light speed. All of this is semi-explained through remarkably long monologues that fail to move the story forward but continue ad nauseum.
The plot is further degraded by its pointed failure to follow up on the various story points set up by its predecessor, the wonderful “Force Awakens.”
Perhaps the most egregious misstep, however, is the film’s ridiculously campy humor, which debases and degrades the proceedings to a remarkable degree. The picture is filled with childish attempts at “Guardians of the Galaxy”-style jokes, like a bad prank phone call between Poe and a First Order ultra-fascist, Luke tossing a light saber indifferently over his shoulder, and an exposition-laden conversation with a tangential character that takes place, for some reason, in the midst of laser-gun duel.
The Ewoks also appear in spirit in the form of the Porgs, a bizarre cross between owls and penguins whose only purpose is being cute and silly and selling merchandise. The problem with this is not merely that the jokes are bad (which they are) but that they make the entire film seem to be a self-referential spoof akin to “Spaceballs” (if less successfully humorous).
The Star Wars films always had funny moments, but they rarely descended into outright camp. “The Last Jedi” seems to be enjoying undermining itself, as if telling the audience “Look at all this silly space opera, and look how silly you are for paying to watch it.” The result is an insult to the intelligence that would be more grating if the rest of the film were not equally so.
That pretty much matches what I've seen in the fan review. Still, there are some here who like it, and good for you! I just ... think I'll give this one a miss.
ETA: Russ Douhat has a more positive opinion. Essentially, as far as he's concerned, the triangle between Luke , Kylo, and Rey are some of the best human interaction story he's ever seen in a Star Wars movie. All three actors do a terrific job. The rest of the movie, however, can be safely ignored.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
Spoiler"Who are Rey's parents?! She has to be a Skywalker! Or a Solo! Or daughter of Kenobi! Or Anakin Reborn!"
See, the hangups regarding the ingrained idea of Divine Rights, where what makes you special is the blood in your vein. Nobody can arise out of nowhere; its all about sons and daughters of Lords and Princesses.
Rey is a nobody. Thats hard to accept to the audience, because we have been conditioned to accept that in Star wars, what makes you special is which bloodline you come from.
So where are the rest of the Knights of Ren? Also, why haven't they taken down the moron Kylo in sheer annoyance? Maybe they are off on their own campaigns and are smart enough to conduct them without Snoke constantly holding their hands and telling them what to do. "But Snoke, why are you always here watching me instead of the other Knights?" "Oh little Kylo, you are the "master"<cough cough> of the knights and I need to bask in your awesomeness and when I am with you I feel like we get more little things accomplished than your "lesser"<cough cough> knights" "Oh golly gee, Snoke, you really like me?" "Yes yes like are like a son to me that I should have drowned when he was a baby." "What was that?" "Oh nothing, you have bread crumbs on your face."
The Imperial guard battle was actually pretty good, I rate it up there with Darth vs Lukes throne room battle and the fight vs Maul. I still think their helms look pretty silly but the rest was pretty cool. I like how it at least deflects indirect lightsaber blades even if it doesn't stop direct hits. Yes armor actually does something in the Star Wars universe.
I loved the Snoke/ Kylo interaction in the early movie, "take that ridiculous thing off." At least someone said it. I really didn't like Kylo's helm. It wasn't near as cool or foreboding as other sith lords from the past plus it really did sound like he was talking with marbles in his mouth.
This was a terrible film and an even worse component of a trilogy.
TLJ took pretty much every one of TFA's major problems and either completely failed to address them or compounded them massively. The origins of Snoke and the First Order and why any of this is happening and how we got from the end of ROTJ to this point that were so utterly absent from TFA - still absent, only now there are additional plot developments that make them much more important and they are still completely ignored.
Spoiler
Whether or not one think's Snoke's backstory is important his relationship ship with Kylo Ren prior to TFA absolutely is, since Snoke seducing Ben Solo to the dark side is the trigger for all of this. Yet there is nothing presented on this at all. Nothing. Even though they had the perfect opportunity to show so of it simply by having a scene where Rey looks into Kylo's head.
The movie continually buries characters under the weight of a ten thousand ton idiot ball and unfolds events that make absolutely no sense as a result.
Spoiler
Why in space does the Vice Admiral not explain her plan to the troops? She could have done this at any time. 'We're going to flee in realspace to reach this hidden base and then we'll sacrifce the cruise to pretend we all died. That's the plan. Any commander worth anything would have understood that restoring morale was important at that point and there was no information security issue that would lead you to not tell them.
The various First Order commanders make one horrible tactical choice after another. Honestly - whether or not it's a good idea for the universe to allow cruisers to use jumping to lightspeed as a suicide attack method if that sort of attack is possible it's not new and you should have plans for it. Especially given that a suicide attack was the most likely move for the resistance to make when their fuel runs out. Also- the other two rebel frigates/cruisers absolutely should have made suicide attacks of their own. Why didn't they?
A huge portion of the run time is taken up by a plotline that accomplishes absolutely nothing.
Spoiler
Look, I actually like Finn. John Boyega seems talented and committed, can't wait to see the new Pacific Rim with him in it, and Rose is fine and its nice to see an Asian character in Star Wars (she is the most substantial Asian character in the entire franchise to date which is kind of amazing to think about). However, absolutely nothing they do between leaving the ship and landing on the salt planet amounts to anything at all (heck, it's not even clear that Phasma dies as irrelevant as she is). Nothing. You could cut that whole plot out and it wouldn't matter in the slightest. That's a huge chunk of movie that isn't necessary and also serves to undercut Poe's character for now good reason. Considering that the movie is too long in general it's just embarrassing.
The movie doesn't portray Star Wars combat believably.
Spoiler
- The opening battle sequence involves dropping un-powered bombs in space. We have objects falling downward in an explicitly zero-g environment. This is quite possibly the most blatant disregard for the laws of physics in space fantasy or science fiction that I have ever witnessed. Ever. I wanted to throw things at the screen. It was positively embarrassing and whoever approved that shot should never be allowed to work in those genres ever again.
- Suicide attack via hyperspace jump is, like the jumping in beneath the shields move in TFA, a very bad choice. Yes it is possible to rationalize ways around it. People up-thread are arguing about it. But this is an established franchise with forty years of history. They would have known going in that this would be massively controversial and would anger passionate fans. And it was totally unnecessary. They could have just have the Raddus execute a ramming attack in realspace to cover the transports to much the same effect. It's a moment that gut punches that fans for no reason.
- Rey getting taken on board un-scrutinized in a pod that could have been a bomb was just ridiculous. I can't even.
The ending leaves us with nowhere to go for the next film.
Spoiler
- The resistance has been reduced to between 10-20 people on the Falcon after the rest of the galaxy specifically failed to rally to try and save them. How to you start from here. At the end of ESB there was still a Rebel fleet - because the evacuation of Hoth succeeded where as the evacuation in this movie was a failure, sorry but 99% asset loss is a military obliteration people - and there was a clear goal in going to save Han. This movie leaves the heroes in total limbo having to rebuild from the ground up against a largely undamaged enemy.
- Since we switched villains from Snoke to Kylo mid-stream we have no idea what the goals of the antagonists are either. Snoke has no backstory at all (a major problem in its own right) but Kylo at least implies he's a Sith somehow. So he wanted to conquer the galaxy because that's what Sith do. Weak, but buyable. But Kylo's in charge now and what does he want? He wanted to kill Luke, but he got that even though he doesn't know it yet. There's absolutely nothing to go on here. We don't even know the motive of the First Order as a whole or what their role in the galaxy even is. That's a holdover problem from TFA that needed to be solved but this movie just made it worse. The casino sequence has no First Order presence, nothing to indicate the state of the galaxy at all. What are the stakes here?
- They killed Luke but left Leia alive. Let's get brutally real for a second. Carrie Fisher's dead. Mark Hamill is very much alive. Leia cannot play a significant role in Episode IX, period. Luke Skywalker could have. Additionally, they should have re-shot the cruiser sacrifice sequence to have Leia make the suicide attack in order to have Laura Dern's Vice Admiral Holdo fill the role of Rebel commander in the next movie. The Vice Admiral was a lousy character, but any character with a living actress is preferable to one without.
Overall The Last Jedi is a movie that makes a ton of preventable mistakes for no good reason that buries some good moments it does have under a pile of mess.
Oh, I was agreeing completely. Maybe I should have posted the Friday "damn" gif instead?
Spoiler
Except Obi Wan. And Yoda. And Han. And Poe (the Mary Sue-est of all the Star Wars. I really, really hate Poe). And the Emperor. And Amidala. And... Well, I guess everyone who matters and isn't a Skywalker.
Anyway, I'm still ecstatic they did that.
No not at all. :annoyed:
Actually this part is more of a literary con job than "Fan Hangups":
Spoiler: On Why Rays Parents Mattered
I personally never liked the whole "Bloodline Carries the Force" thing. I wished anybody could be a force user, and just like a martial art some people just had the knack for it more then others.
However Rays Parents where completly important for another reason:
It was a promise as to why she is so massively powerful. TFA promised an explanation for why she was so powerful.
I assumed maybe she had repressed memories and that she was super duper trained beforehand or something, or somekind of experiement.
Others assumed "Well maybe shes so powerful because Anakin?"
And one would think in theory that making the bloodlines thing unimportant would be a good thing: Well sorta.
Like a Senetor Payrise mixed in with a bill to raise park funding, this movie cheats by equating one terrible thing with another:
Rey hasn't become any better then the Anakin Bloodline because she is JUST another Anakin. A spontaneous fart of the force, better then everybody else who came before her with no merit or hard work on her end. But Anakin was at least a subversive character.
This doesn't serve to make Bloodlines less Important, it just stresses that the force at random can make a super duper overpowered person on a whim.
In fact its worse then bloodlines, It just means how powerful you become is based on the roll of a die.
And even if we take at face value the movies explanation (I expect retcons): That she was born out of a balance.
Well then shes STILL JUST A REACTION TO THE SKYWALKER BLOODLINE.
In simple point, the movie bamboozles you with one theoretical thing, whilst doing it in a way that denies you its promise ie:
"Hey you promised me Icream, I paid for it!"
"You don't need any icecream, its unhealthy and you and you could do some excercise instead!"
Well OK, good for the attentiveness but I still paid money for it. Its not Mr Miagis life lessons if he first takes the pay. It just makes him a jerk.
The National Review also gave this one a similarly bad review, including claiming it “insults are intelligence.” I wonder if there is a reason why political conservatives in particular hate it.
These reviews are not saying that the movie is just a miss and a mess, but that they actively undermine the very things that make a Star Wars movie great. Other reviews refer to the themes TLJ discards as “idols” and TFA leftovers, these reviews find great import in what is being discarded.
Finally, that accusation is an insult to our intelligence is probably the most biting. The Federalist details it as saying the movie enjoys undermining itself as if its telling us how silly this space opera is (and how silly you are to watch it).
TLJ is clearly disrupting core themes, but there is something to be said about just how profane it becomes[SPOILER=Jedi and other idols]Luke is explicitly saying its time for the Jedi religion to die, then Luke intends to literally burn the equivalent of the original bible, only to have Yoda do it for him.
The Jedi religion is a fantasy, but I cannot help but to think the notion is meant to have some import about real life themes of historical and religious import.
The dialectic doesn’t even have a point of view that respects the substance of what is being destroyed. Luke’s mistake isn’t so much his desire to get past these things, but in how seriously he goes about destroying and demeaning them. Yoda comes along to essentially say that its all alright, none of it really matters. Yoda, the voice of wisdom, encapsulates the casual way the movie speaks about not just the Jedi religion, but all its core themes, often just before it either figuratively or literally burns them down.
What I am speaking of is not just one scene or even Luke’s character, the entire film just goes from one built-up assumption to the next, from Snoke being a big deal and powerhouse, to Rey having some sort of familiar connection, just to tear those things down one after the next. Even the new plot is fundamentally an exercise in undermining traditional narrative. Poe and Finn’s mission basically just gets a lot more people killed in the end. Rey’s mission just allows Kylo Ren to take over the First Order.
In the end, despite the blundering of the heroes (and the villains) it really doesn’t matter. The new rebellion will live on, a new Jedi order will rise, and the villains will just continue to do their thing.
The kids in the end basically seem to suggest the level of sentiment the movie has for the franchise, Star Wars will continue to be a fantasy for children across thegalaxyEarth to play with, but any desire to look for meaning in its themes beyond it being just another fantasy about good fighting and triumphing over evil is an exercise in folly./SPOILER]
Spoiler: Rey's parentage
The problem with Rey's parents being nobodies is that her potential parentage was the only available hook left to tie her into the story. By confirming that her parents were of no importance and had no significant impact on her character Rey is left as a bizarre blank slate protagonist who the Sequel Trilogy is happening to, rather centered upon. TFA had already closed out all other avenues.
- Rey comes from nowhere - Jakku is an unimportant planet doing nothing.
- Rey comes from nothing - she's a junk scrounger.
- Rey has no major ideological ties - whether the First Order or the Republic or the Hutts or anyone else controls the galaxy doesn't mean squat to a junk scrounger on Jakku. Life will go on. She has no personal commitment to or even opinions on how the galaxy should be governed (contrast this with both Finn and Poe who very much do have such connections and opinions).
- Rey has no ties to the Jedi Order. TLJ has her deeply committed to fighting for something that she knows only as a fairy tale.
- Rey's moral foundation is a blank. This is a major problem. Rey is portrayed in both TFA and TLJ as an extremely ethical person. She is kind, generous, and selfless. This is pretty much the exact opposite of what her background as a cutthroat junk scrounger would lead us to expect (we would expect someone with her background to resemble the codebreaker).
- Rey is a clone of Luke is pretty much every way except the disposition of her parents. Young idealist from a dead-end desert planet with a background in a lousy career that nonetheless provides her with a foundation of deeply practical skills. Only Luke was guided by the good old-fashioned American farm values instilled in him by Owen and Beru Lars (Luke's ideological foundation fundamentally the same as Superman's and prior to TLJ so were his ethics). Luke was pulled into the galactic conflict because of who his father was - that's the reason R2 and 3PO were sent to Tatooine in the first place, because Obi-Wan was watching him, and that's the reason he became more than a moderately important Rebel officer.
Rey, by contrast, enters the story because she finds BB-8 effectively at random. Snoke says the Force chose her, but why did it choose her and no someone else? Why didn't it choose Finn? Or Poe? They're both far more invested candidates. Had Rey been given important parents/grandparents that would have provided justification for why, out of all the quadrillions of people in the galaxy, the Force chose her. Heck, she could have been given unimportant but morally upright parents who instilled her with a grand sense of ethics (like they could have been random Alderaanian charity workers or something) and that would have at least provided some justification for her as the 'righteous woman' champion of the light. Instead, we're left with 'random' and while random may be realistic, random does not make for compelling storytelling.
Again, imagine if TFA - which teased this - had made Finn the chosen champion of the light and not Rey. The former child soldier turning against his masters to bring justice to the galaxy - that's at least poetic and certainly superior to what we have.
Also I the amount of having cake and also eating it in this movie is simply immense:
The time to start a New Trilogy with new values would have been at the Force Awakens.
I BEGGED for that sort of thing and was sorely disappointed when it was a rehash.
To say "We so clever because we start anew", is insulting because you have spent 3 movies wallowing in the past and in nostalgia value.
They made the whole universe make less sense, burn down every piece of logic or development in order to do a soft reboot, and NOW you want applause for doing something "new" (In the most lazy way of new)?
Heck in 6 months you want me to clap for the guy who ultimately accomplishes nothing and is such a terrible parent his own son kills him.
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones Disney.