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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
Yes. Things consequently break down when you either have the 15-minute workday, or something that allows you to repeatedly stop, refresh, and continue on with the full complement of spells without doing untoward--unless criminal investigations and the like are aided by sleep-deprived wizards for some reason.
Well, the sleep-deprived alcoholic investigator is kind of a thing...
To be honest, I feel like D&D just isn't built for that kind of story in the first place. I mean, you can adapt it to it, but it's not the best suited. I realize many people have run many games with that focus; I just don't understand why they chose to use D&D for it.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
How are you supposed to run an ongoing investigation such that abilities limited per day aren't going to be considerably stronger? :smallconfused:
By having an investigation in which those spells aren't particularly useful? Seriously, give me a scenario here where the fact that the wizard can refresh their spells daily where in the spells are made more powerful by the fact that they're refreshed once per day and wherein having a different refresh mechanic would solve the problem.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Craft (Cheese)
The balance can only be maintained if the same narrative timescale is kept all the time. This is effectively the solution offered when people say "Just throw random encounters at the players" or "Give them a short time limit." If this works for you, great, but I find it unsatisfactory because not all scenarios are best played at the same pace, and I shouldn't have to worry about one player becoming disproportionately powerful when the pace relaxes.
Yes, exactly. The 15-minute work day isn't (always) a player behavior issue that can be solved with some sort of gentleman's agreement. It's a severe restriction on the sorts of adventures you can run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BayardSPSR
Well, the sleep-deprived alcoholic investigator is kind of a thing...
To be honest, I feel like D&D just isn't built for that kind of story in the first place. I mean, you can adapt it to it, but it's not the best suited. I realize many people have run many games with that focus; I just don't understand why they chose to use D&D for it.
Ummm... I think it'd be insane if that's all you use D&D for, because it's not a tool made for that task.
However, peppering the normal exploration of dungeons and dangerous wilderness with investigations and intrigue should always be an option for an ongoing campaign.
I find pacing to be a much bigger issue for long-distance wilderness travel than investigation, though. It faces similar issues with daily resource management.
-O
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
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Originally Posted by
1337 b4k4
The problem here is that you are comparing two vastly different things, assuming the DM will run them exactly the same way and that the players will approach them exactly the same way and concluding that things are broken because of that. If you play a corruption investigation the same way you play a bandit raid, quite frankly, you're doing it wrong, and not in a "your vanilla is worse than my chocolate way" but in an honest "you seriously aren't doing what you're supposed to do" way.
I don't see how. I'd run the investigation scenario by going around the table and asking each player what their character is doing. I'd run the combat scenario by going around the table and asking each player what their character is doing. The combat is more structured due to initiative order and a strict action economy, but fundamentally they're both the same.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
Yes. Things consequently break down when you either have the 15-minute workday, or something that allows you to repeatedly stop, refresh, and continue on with the full complement of spells without doing untoward--unless criminal investigations and the like are aided by sleep-deprived wizards for some reason.
Have you read Dresden? :smallwink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1337 b4k4
By having an investigation in which those spells aren't particularly useful? Seriously, give me a scenario here where the fact that the wizard can refresh their spells daily where in the spells are made more powerful by the fact that they're refreshed once per day and wherein having a different refresh mechanic would solve the problem.
In a scenario where spells directly effect the performace of a wizard in an investigative capacity? Which is pretty much always...
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1337 b4k4
By having an investigation in which those spells aren't particularly useful? Seriously, give me a scenario here where the fact that the wizard can refresh their spells daily where in the spells are made more powerful by the fact that they're refreshed once per day and wherein having a different refresh mechanic would solve the problem.
Because any refresh mechanic that gives Wizards the ability to use a spell on a more regular basis would be obliged to weaken the individual potency of these spells? The result, therefore, is that a wizard can't, on day one of the investigation, just prepare whatever spell might be handy (if they have literally any enchantment and divination spells available in the final thing, them) and spam it without thought for resource conservation, because you don't have to stretch your limited slots over four or five encounters. Hell, just one of these spells could make a huge difference, so if you can freely spam them because they don't have to be conserved so much...
If a day of investigating takes about as long as one combat or similar, it's pretty much impossible for the wizard to run out of spells and then not have a chance to refresh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wamyen
Have you read Dresden? :smallwink:
I have no idea which book comes first. It's kind of gotten in the way. :smalltongue:
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
A pretty common scenario in RPGs is that you have to guard a caravan traveling from A to B, which gets attacked or otherwise in trouble at several points in the middle. This trip should take several days or weeks. This means that in any system with daily resources, the players can unload everything they have on each battle encounter, which is probably not what you want as a designer.
A simple mechanism that would work to counter this is having "daily mechanics" run on something like willpower instead, and willpower refreshes whenever your character accomplishes something important.
2E's lengthy spell memorization times are also a mechanism that helps against this. 4E RPGA adventures counter this by simply having every scenario take only one day, or by preventing the group from resting for some arbitrary reason.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
I have no idea which book comes first. It's kind of gotten in the way. :smalltongue:
Storm Front
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wamyen
In a scenario where spells directly effect the performace of a wizard in an investigative capacity? Which is pretty much always...
So do you have an actual scenario or do I just need to keep guessing at what you have in mind until I find the real goal posts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
The result, therefore, is that a wizard can't, on day one of the investigation, just prepare whatever spell might be handy (if they have literally any enchantment and divination spells available in the final thing, them)
So in other words, if you give your spell casters access to all the spells, in direct contradiction of the rules (a restriction which has admittedly waned since the days when D&D played correctly), then the game breaks. I suggest not giving your casters access to All The Spells (tm).
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
A pretty common scenario in RPGs is that you have to guard a caravan traveling from A to B, which gets attacked or otherwise in trouble at several points in the middle. This trip should take several days or weeks. This means that in any system with daily resources, the players can unload everything they have on each battle encounter, which is probably not what you want as a designer.
A simple mechanism that would work to counter this is having "daily mechanics" run on something like willpower instead, and willpower refreshes whenever your character accomplishes something important.
2E's lengthy spell memorization times are also a mechanism that helps against this. 4E RPGA adventures counter this by simply having every scenario take only one day, or by preventing the group from resting for some arbitrary reason.
Another way is to replace daily refreshing with scene refreshing. You could say the caravan journey is all one scene, even though it takes several days, so you can't unload all of your spells every encounter.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
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Originally Posted by
Craft (Cheese)
Another way is to replace daily refreshing with scene refreshing. You could say the caravan journey is all one scene, even though it takes several days, so you can't unload all of your spells every encounter.
Yes, but that's strictly an out-of-character construct and some people just don't like that. Willpower does the same thing from an in-character perspective.
I should point out, though, that numerous RPGs do have spells that last until the end of the scene as a duration mechanic, and that works pretty well. One RPG has the explicit duration of "until it stops being funny" listed in the rules (i.e. Paranoia).
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1337 b4k4
So in other words, if you give your spell casters access to all the spells, in direct contradiction of the rules (a restriction which has admittedly waned since the days when D&D played correctly), then the game breaks. I suggest not giving your casters access to All The Spells (tm).
They don't NEED all the spells. Charm or Dominate Person on their own would be a HUGE boost, they just prepare them as much as possible. And spam them at everyone even the slightest bit suspicious, who then gets quizzed.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
I strongly support the "weaken spells" camp, to be accompanied by pumping up what skills and mundane class abilities can do. If all classes use similar formulas for powers*, if casters get power along the lines of a Warlock, and noncasters power along the lines of a Swordsage, then we have Balance, and we don't need to worry about time constraints and going nova and 15-minute adventuring days.
*I know, I know, 4e did this and we complained, but there is a middle ground between 3e spells and "all powers are hit X targets for Y damage with Z rider effect."
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
They don't NEED all the spells. Charm or Dominate Person on their own would be a HUGE boost, they just prepare them as much as possible. And spam them at everyone even the slightest bit suspicious, who then gets quizzed.
And then find themselves run out of town, or even killed for it. The victims of such spells are often aware of such after the fact. Someone forcefully dominating people is going to be reported to the police. And certainly the corrupt politician is going to prosecute such a crime to the fullest extent of the law.
And to drag this back to D&D Next, Charm Person has a 1 hour duration, allows a saving throw and states they regard you as a "friendly acquaintance". Conspirators will keep secrets, even from their friends.
Dominate Person also has a mere 1 hour duration, also allows a saving throw and fails if you issue any orders which are obviously self destructive, depending on how deep the conspiracy goes, admitting your involvement (or that of others) could indeed by very self destructive.
In either case, after an hour, you can be sure that the target will be rushing to the authorities.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1337 b4k4
And then find themselves run out of town, or even killed for it. The victims of such spells are often aware of such after the fact. Someone forcefully dominating people is going to be reported to the police. And certainly the corrupt politician is going to prosecute such a crime to the fullest extent of the law.
And to drag this back to D&D Next, Charm Person has a 1 hour duration, allows a saving throw and states they regard you as a "friendly acquaintance". Conspirators will keep secrets, even from their friends.
Dominate Person also has a mere 1 hour duration, also allows a saving throw and fails if you issue any orders which are obviously self destructive, depending on how deep the conspiracy goes, admitting your involvement (or that of others) could indeed by very self destructive.
In either case, after an hour, you can be sure that the target will be rushing to the authorities.
You mean that the last order you give isn't 'forget the last hour so you can truthfully claim innocence'? :smallconfused:
Charm Person is basically the quickest way to persuade someone to get drunk so they do start spilling secrets. Probably still better to use Dominate. Or Suggestion. Or anything else from the entire school... :smallsigh:
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
1337 b4k4
And then find themselves run out of town, or even killed for it. The victims of such spells are often aware of such after the fact. Someone forcefully dominating people is going to be reported to the police. And certainly the corrupt politician is going to prosecute such a crime to the fullest extent of the law.
...
In either case, after an hour, you can be sure that the target will be rushing to the authorities.
Unfortunately, as none of this is supported in the rules, we can't rely on this reliably happening in practice.
If the DM has to go out of their way to balance things, things aren't balanced.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
You mean that the last order you give isn't 'forget the last hour so you can truthfully claim innocence'? :smallconfused:
What makes you think the spell does that? Most people do not have the supernatural ability to forget things when ordered, and neither Charm nor Dominate gives them this ability either.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
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Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
What makes you think the spell does that? Most people do not have the supernatural ability to forget things when ordered, and neither Charm nor Dominate gives them this ability either.
But people can forget things, and it's a supernatural compulsion to follow orders. I don't see why it couldn't make them forget.
Worst case scenario is that they go and get very, very, very drunk. Eh.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
But people can forget things, and it's a supernatural compulsion to follow orders. I don't see why it couldn't make them forget.
By that logic, you could also make them fly by ordering them to.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
But people can forget things, and it's a supernatural compulsion to follow orders. I don't see why it couldn't make them forget.
Sure, I theoretically have the ability to forget. I also theoretically have the ability to play a piano concerto, but I'm not going to be able to actually do that without years of training.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
I'm sure someone's published a mind-probing spell somewhere. Worst-case scenario? Short-term memory wipe spell to make them forget you were ever there.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
By that logic, you could also make them fly by ordering them to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grod_The_Giant
Sure, I theoretically have the ability to forget. I also theoretically have the ability to play a piano concerto, but I'm not going to be able to actually do that without years of training.
So... you're telling me that people don't forget things all the time? This is not teaching a new skill. This is not even instructions to do something beyond the body's capabilities. It's basically just a magical command to not remember something. Unless the person being interrogated has an eidetic memory, there is no way that they can fail at failing to remember something.
Dominate Person's only restriction is that it can't be something self-destructive. That doesn't mean that it has to be achievable, does it? Dominate, interrogate, instruct to forget. They spend the rest of their domination not thinking about it and getting as drunk as possible. Give them some gold too, if you want to make sure.
There's all sorts of ways to achieve the goal of making one person forget.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
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Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
So... you're telling me that people don't forget things all the time?
Not at will, no.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Raineh Daze
So... you're telling me that people don't forget things all the time?
People forget how the rules work all the time, yes. Especially when doing so makes their character stronger :smallamused:
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grod_The_Giant
Not at will, no.
... which isn't important, it just needs to be within their capabilities. It's very easy to not remember something. Consider it unimportant. Have them spend the next hour on much more important-seeming things that consume their entire attention. Make 'em drunk immediately after.
Hell, combine that last one with then knocking them out and pouring the rest of it down them and even if they do remember, nobody will believe them. Pretty much flawless interrogation for one spell slot, and you can repeat it all day long. :smallsigh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
People forget how the rules work all the time, yes. Especially when doing so makes their character stronger :smallamused:
There are rules for memory? :O
... I mean, I know that 3.5 had Autohypnosis, which can give perfect recollection, but aside from that.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grod_The_Giant
Not at will, no.
But if spells like this are by definition acting against a person's will, does that matter?
Honestly, fail to see how whether or not they remember actually matters to the point, which was that spells are strong. I think.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
People often forget things. But you can't really forget something deliberately, and I've never assumed that Dominate (never mind Charm) could let people do things that they could not otherwise do on purpose.
As an example, if eating something makes you throw up, always, and someone Dominates you into eating that something and keeping it down? You're still going to throw up. You will try to keep it down. You will fail.
At best, you can do things like try to get drunk enough to forget, as you mentioned, but that's not generally going to do wonders as far as forgetting what happened before you were drunk, plus it's kind of unreliable at the best of times.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
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Originally Posted by
Friv
At best, you can do things like try to get drunk enough to forget, as you mentioned, but that's not generally going to do wonders as far as forgetting what happened before you were drunk, plus it's kind of unreliable at the best of times.
Get 'em drunk immediately after before they have time to think about it and let the short-term effects of alcohol do the rest. Just make 'em drink fast. :smallamused:
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
Clearly the solution is to gut the entire Divinination and Enchantment schools. Probably also want to get rid of a lot of Conjuration, Illusion, and Necromancy as well. Any spells that you don't remove put a big taboo over using, so anyone working even in an official capacity gets chased after with torches and pitchforks if they use the spells. That will show those magic users for trying to use their spells!
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Re: D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
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Originally Posted by
Seerow
Clearly the solution is to gut the entire Divinination and Enchantment schools. Probably also want to get rid of a lot of Conjuration, Illusion, and Necromancy as well. Any spells that you don't remove put a big taboo over using, so anyone working even in an official capacity gets chased after with torches and pitchforks if they use the spells. That will show those magic users for trying to use their spells!
Despite the sarcasm, this does have part of a suggestion--gut the schools. But not just them; gut the full set. Except probably Evocation, that one doesn't need to be torn to shreds so much. It shouldn't be the situation that a single spell has so much potential, and you can spam it all day long, and then rest and basically accomplish an entire investigation single-handedly just by using one thing. :smallsigh: