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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
This is debatable given the laughable gate strategy proposed. There's been some good planetar tactics. The "Surprise the fighter via gate trick" is not one of them.
It'd be nice if you could back up your argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
No, he's aware of the direction an enemy is coming from and is lying in wait of said enemy. The Planetar thinks he's ambushing the Fighter but he's walking into a prepared situation. This is a neutral confrontation. Initiative is rolled normally and it dies. Going by your logic, again, waiting for enemies from a position of strength and if the enemies likewise know where you are the other party in the defensible position are going to get surprised despite knowing exactly where their opponents are coming from. This is laughable.
The only thing that's laughable is your insistence that the Fighter will be aware of the Planetar because he saw the Gate spell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
It is unless characters in D&D are so brain dead that all conventional military tactical knowledge is invalid. If characters, in universe, are that stupid suddenly it makes complete sense why despite their magical prowess the planetar would prefer to use a great sword in combat. In which case it also dies.
It doesn't matter because that's not how the rules work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
After initiative is rolled the Fighter goes first because the Planetar wasted it's time going through a gate and walking into a prepared fighter. The Planetar is dead and doesn't cast anything.
No, the Planetar takes a free action to step through the Gate and surprises the Fighter. You don't get to be aware because you saw a spell a split second before the Planetar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Or the player has seen it before because his fighter is level 20 and such spells have been common for a long time at this point. Again, identifying what portal or what gate might be beyond the fighter but it tdoesn't take a rocket scientist to know "Portals usually lead to other places and creatures use portals to ambush and snack on yummy fighters."
Metagaming, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
He's ready for a creature to step through the gate. Maybe not the planetar itself but a creature nonetheless. He knows something is coming through and is prepared to take action. The planetar dies a glorious albeit very depressing death.
Care to quote some rules to back up your argument?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
- The planetar does?
How is the Planetar metagaming?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
- Probably average or slightly above average. Guess what? Average people aren't as dumb as you think they are especially when they're as experienced as a level 20 fighter.
That doesn't really matter, as none of what you're describing works via RAW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Sure but we're not talking all the time. There's a very obvious portal up.
The Planetar is taking a free action (no time at all) to step through it, so that's moot. Also, the Planetar is invisible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Spellcraft isn't needed. A portal is a portal. Especially in high magical settings like D&D where even the layman knows what a portal is. Again, he doesn't know it's a Gate or what version of Gate and therefore doesn't know the level of the creature coming through but the fighter has no reason not to assume, given his career, and how many monsters he's fought up until this point to not assume something is stepping through.
That's not how RAW works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Better tactics or try harder.
You've yet to list a valid critique of my stratagem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
No it prefers using suicidal strategies like gating into a waiting fighter who can end him in a FRA.
You really don't get how surprise works, do you?
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Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Using meta game knowledge in favor of the planetar.
Using spells RAW, is metagaming?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Out of fairness you would assume it'd be mutual.
It really won't help the Fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Or the fighter laughs at the planetar's terrible tactics?
How is the Fighter going to counter the Planetar's tactics? Besides your repeated misconceptions about how surprise works?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Quite the contrary. Most things in the world are so outclassed by it that the default tactics work just fine. Even if the ability is at will, it does not necessarily imply no effort. The tactics and abilities attempt (and fail, apparently) to reflect the nature of the creature in question. You choose to ignore this and go by your own judgement, rather than the rules. Do not fault others for not making the same choice. I don't fault you for yours. They are not what a creature with those abilities would do against a powerful opponent. But most of its opponents are not powerful.
So the Planetar would only use those tactics against foes who aren't threatening; typical tactics != RAW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I see no indication that this would be the case. Surprise round is a round in which only some creatures may act, not an extra round inserted into timeline (AFAIK, feel free to quote rules otherwise). I edited my thoughts on this on my earlier post.
Free action don't take any time; the Planetar casts Gate then steps through it: cue surprise round.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
What 'both spells?' As long as the Planetar is not within Control Winds, the Fighter's attack beats the Planetar's (I believe).
Because the Planetar can stand at the edge of Control Winds and hits you with Holy Smite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I worded it poorly. He is free to sit out the duration. Running away means abandoning the battle. He runs away and gets to try again, this time against the Planetar that has expended some of its spells. That, or the Planetar runs away to get more. So the encounter might be a dull, hours-long thing, but it is only over when one side abandons the fight. Or we can say that Planetar wins round one, but has to either fight the Fighter again until it can defeat it, or run away.
So the Fighter can't win and can't stop the Planetar from leaving and trying again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
A skill that uses GM adjudication and is therefore out of this discussion, I believe.
There is no DM adjudication, just RAW; Diplomacy makes people your friends, that's how the skill works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I do not believe this is the case. See my previous post
You're wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Which he will either do during or after the surprise round, by my interpretation of Surprise rules.
Your interpretation is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
But why is it going after the fighter?
My god, make up your mind! For this scenario to work, one party has to be hunting down the other! So who is hunting?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Why does it cast the first Divination/contact other plane/whatever to start learning about this fighter? Because doing that smells of metagaming. In general Divination seems like a metagaming tool to me. You get knowledge IC about stuff you know of only OOC if played like I usually see it suggested. Like here.
Using spells as they are intended is not metagaming, it's smart play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Why did the Planetar cast it?
To gather information about its quarry, or to divine the future for danger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
No they don't. A chance encounter is possible as well, or should be, according to the rules. Assumed, in fact, I think?
In a chance encounter, the Planetar leaves, and then gathers data via Contact Other Planes. If the Fighter is determined to be threatening enough to deem termination, the Planetar ambushes him while he's sleeping (via Discern Location).
You don't charge into battle against unknown opponents without doing research first; not if you want to live a long life, that is.
Edit: The Planetar probably knew about the Fighter beforehand, thanks to Contact Other Planes and other divination spells.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZamielVanWeber
Also do not sit here and point at others when both Ivanhoe and emeraldstreak have both broken/made up rules to suit their needs (and that was just recently).
To some extent, I think we should be patient with people. Here for example I pointed out that the halfling does not rely on multiple buffs. To some extent, they might be right and they deserve a fair hearing. And to some extent you should not try to hold someone responsible for what others say. Do you really want to be held responsible for the most egregious false statements of the antifighter side? I documented many from Beheld with the build before giving up, but it's not like this has stopped.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
You really are determined to not understand my points, aren't you?
To be fair, I don't think "Gate != Planetar" is comprehensible by anyone but you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
I'll spell it out for you:
Gate isn't a creature; being aware of it is useless. You don't know when anything is coming out of it, or if anything will ever emerge from the Gate. If the Planetar pops out of the Gate, it gets a suprise round because the Fighter didn't know it was there.
If combat starts after the Planetar pops out of the Gate(which you indicated), then it does not get a surprise round. Let me repeat:
Starting state: Fighter is unaware.
Planetar casts gate -> Fighter becomes aware of gate.
Planetar steps through gate -> Fighter becomes aware of Planetar.
Combat starts. Is the Fighter aware of the Planetar? Yes. Therefore, the Fighter is not surprised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Nothing says that the effect has to be centered on the Planetar; a solid surface at one end Control Winds would force the Fighter to retreat over 1,500' to escape Holy Smite and Control Winds.
(a) You are post-hoc inventing a solid surface at one end of the Control Winds. You can tell this because it's not in your diagram and it hasn't been mentioned yet.
(b) If the Planetar casts Control Winds with a point of origin not at it's location, the AOE decreases because range constrains area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Range
If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.
So, yes, you can cast Control Winds off-center, but no it does not increase the distance required to get out of AOE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
:smallconfused: Diameter is the radius *2; that's 1,360 + 270.
Another true irrelevant statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
- Unless the Pit Fiend doesn't stand within 30', then it isn't affected.
That is incorrect. Mummy Despair operates based on LOS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mummy
At the mere sight of a mummy, the viewer must succeed on a DC 16 Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d4 rounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
I repeat; if you don't stop ignoring/distorting my points, I will not respond to your posts. Stop doing that, it's rude and makes you look bad.
I don't know what you are talking about as far as ignoring/distorting.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
@ColorBlindNinja - When is surprise determined? Also, I'd like you to prove the notion that a surprise round provides an extra round, rather than being a round where actions are limited. Rules please.
And in a chance encounter, fighter achieves whatever goal he wants because the Planetar is playing his divination games to play it safe. It is a luxury not always afforded.
Diplomacy and friends: I'm fairly certain diplomacy doesn't make creatures follow orders. It makes them listen to your requests. A person who orders me around is not going to be my friend for long. These social interactions fall outside the scope of rules, and are thus GM territory (in my opinion)
Knowing about Gates: It is metagaming in a RAW discussion (I still have not been shaken out of my belief that this is meant to be one, as I keep pointing out), but the fighter has grown from 1 to 20. It must have defeated encounters. Knowing what a Gate is is not egregious metagaming, any more than playing uncannily accurate Divination games is. What would be an egregious case of metagaming is saying that the figter has met a Panetar that explained in detail all its abilities and the ways it can use them. Not knowing of a spell.
The only fair encounter is a chance one. Fighter walks behind a corner, sees a Planetar/Pit Fiend and thinks: "I must destroy it!" Roll Initiative, battle lasts until one side is out of the fight. Range is close.
In a metagame sense, yes, it favours a fighter, but it would favour any other class equally much, so I don't believe it matters.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
It'd be nice if you could back up your argument.
You're the one with the claim not me. Prove that it still gets a surprise round despite the fact that an aware fighter who knows his enemy is approaching and what direction it's approaching from would somehow become surprised at the fact that the enemy came EXACTLY where he knew it was going to come from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
The only thing that's laughable is your insistence that the Fighter will be aware of the Planetar because he saw the Gate spell.
It's laughable to assume that the Fighter would know an enemy might come from a portal that leads to locations unfathomable in a world of sorcery and magic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Metagaming, then.
Yeah, the planetar has been doing that for awhile. We're aware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Care to quote some rules to back up your argument?
sur·prise
sə(r)ˈprīz/
noun
noun: surprise; plural noun: surprises
1.
an unexpected or astonishing event, fact, or thing.
"the announcement was a complete surprise"
synonyms: shock, bolt from the blue, bombshell, revelation, rude awakening, eye-opener, wake-up call; informalshocker
"the test came as a big surprise"
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents
The fighter in this case is aware that something may step through the portal and attack him. He may not know it's a planetar but he's definitely aware of the potential threat and is therefore aware of his enemy the moment it steps out of that barrier. You can't make up definition of words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
How is the Planetar metagaming?
By knowing everything about the fighter, who he is, that he's hunting him, etc but the Fighter isn't even aware the planetar even exists? That's the very definition of metagaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
The Planetar is taking a free action (no time at all) to step through it, so that's moot. Also, the Planetar is invisible.
It's beginning to sound like Dread Sorcerer King here. "Dread Cleric Planetar has a combo. Fighter doesn't know planetar and so can't counter the planetar's strategy! Fighter doesn't know he's coming, doesn't know he exists, and he ambushes fighter! Try to beat combo!"
If we continue arguing are you going to come up with a combo 2 or 3? Also, I'm aware. Fighter side has done the same thing. Doesn't make the tactic right or valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
That's not how RAW works.
Accordance to your understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Using spells RAW, is metagaming?
Knowing everything about the Fighter and knowing to cast the spells you have chosen despite no combat taking place or anything without the Fighter ever being aware of the planetar? Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
How is the Fighter going to counter the Planetar's tactics? Besides your repeated misconceptions about how surprise works?
Because he is aware that an enemy is coming through the gate and is ready for action. This means he won't be surprised because being ready from an attack in a direction he knows the attack is coming is the complete opposite of being surprised. REady does not mean "Surprised." You don't get to re-write the definition on words.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
So the Planetar would only use those tactics against foes who aren't threatening; typical tactics != RAW.
How does he know the Fighter is threatening? Even by the book the average level 16 fighter dies to the "Typical tactics" listed. Metagaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Free action don't take any time; the Planetar casts Gate then steps through it: cue surprise round.
Planetar casts gate. Fighter see's gate. Fighter becomes aware of planetar as planetar steps into gate. Roll combat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Because the Planetar can stand at the edge of Control Winds and hit you with Holy Smite.
If he's at the edge of the control winds why can't the fighter just back track? Not to mention holy smite doesn't even work on good aligned characters which most are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
So the Fighter can't win and can't stop the Planetar from leaving and trying again.
If the Planetar leaves the fight is over. The encounter is won.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
My god, make up your mind! For this scenario to work, one party has to be hunting down the other! So who is hunting?!
Why can't both? Maybe the fighter was told there's an insane planetar hunting down fighters and is on a quest to kill the fallen planetar (or what he believes to be a fallen planetar) while the Planetar has heard there's a fighter masquerading as a hero who's on a quest to kill angels? The two are now hunting each other. Look, this is my problem with PvP fights. In a real campaign in some missions maybe the planetar knows who this particular fighter is and has a reason to go after him or maybe the fighter walks in on the planetar who was in the process of slaying some demon scum. In a real game the Planetar may get stumbled upon or may stumble upon the Fighter. If you want to do a proper PvP death match maybe do one where the Fighter is hunting the Planetar, the Planetar is hunting the Fighter and there's also a neutral battle where both are hunting each other? Unless you want to go dread sorcerer king route where the Fighter is not allowed to know the Planetar and the Planetar instantly starts using his Dread Cleric Combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
In a chance encounter, the Planetar leaves, and then gathers data via Contact Other Planes. If the Fighter is determined to be threatening enough to deem termination, the Planetar ambushes him while he's sleeping (via Discern Location).
You don't charge into battle against unknown opponents without doing research first; not if you want to live a long life, that is.
So in a chance encounter the Planetar quickly retreats, which causes the encounter to end, and then a new encounter begins where the Planetar tries to attack at the opportune moment when it has all of it's advantages? Looks like a 50/50 fight. If the Planetar is caught with it's pants down it dies. If the Planetar encounters the fighter in an open field and both are as easily surprised to see each other. Planetar dies. The planetar wins when it is aware of the fighter in advance and has all of it's ducks lined up to get to perfect ambush on the fighter. Even then it's debatable.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
It's beginning to sound like Dread Sorcerer King here. "Dread Cleric Planetar has a combo. Fighter doesn't know planetar and so can't counter the planetar's strategy! Fighter doesn't know he's coming, doesn't know he exists, and he ambushes fighter! Try to beat combo!"
If we continue arguing are you going to come up with a combo 2 or 3? Also, I'm aware. Fighter side has done the same thing. Doesn't make the tactic right or valid.
I too have seen this, on both sides, though mostly on the not-fighter side (To be honest, mostly CBN. Beheld makes good arguments for the same side).
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
@Anthrowhale
I warned you about ignoring my posts, now I'm done with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
@ColorBlindNinja - When is surprise determined? Also, I'd like you to prove the notion that a surprise round provides an extra round, rather than being a round where actions are limited. Rules please.
Let me get this straight; you've been arguing about surprise without understanding the rules involved?
Spoiler: SRD - Initiative
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD Initiative
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.
Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
And in a chance encounter, fighter achieves whatever goal he wants because the Planetar is playing his divination games to play it safe. It is a luxury not always afforded.
So now the Planetar has to stop the Fighter's sinister plot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Diplomacy and friends: I'm fairly certain diplomacy doesn't make creatures follow orders. It makes them listen to your requests. A person who orders me around is not going to be my friend for long. These social interactions fall outside the scope of rules, and are thus GM territory (in my opinion)
Wrong:
Spoiler: SRD Diplomacy
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD Diplomacy
You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD Diplomacy
Attitude Means Possible Actions
Hostile Will take risks to hurt you Attack, interfere, berate, flee
Unfriendly Wishes you ill Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult
Indifferent Doesn’t much care Socially expected interaction
Friendly Wishes you well Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Knowing about Gates: It is metagaming in a RAW discussion (I still have not been shaken out of my belief that this is meant to be one, as I keep pointing out), but the fighter has grown from 1 to 20. It must have defeated encounters. Knowing what a Gate is is not egregious metagaming, any more than playing uncannily accurate Divination games is. What would be an egregious case of metagaming is saying that the figter has met a Panetar that explained in detail all its abilities and the ways it can use them. Not knowing of a spell.
RAW, the Fighter must have Spellcraft to know what Gate is; using divination spells to foresee danger isn't metagaming, it's using your abilities intelligently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
The only fair encounter is a chance one. Fighter walks behind a corner, sees a Planetar/Pit Fiend and thinks: "I must destroy it!" Roll Initiative, battle lasts until one side is out of the fight. Range is close.
The list of perks to the Fighter are just piling up, aren't they? Planetars have a +23 to Spot, it's more likely to see the Fighter first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
In a metagame sense, yes, it favours a fighter, but it would favour any other class equally much, so I don't believe it matters.
It does matter, because it gives one side an undue advantage, and is implausible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
You're the one with the claim not me. Prove that it still gets a surprise round despite the fact that an aware fighter who knows his enemy is approaching and what direction it's approaching from would somehow become surprised at the fact that the enemy came EXACTLY where he knew it was going to come from?
The Fighter isn't aware; it's that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
It's laughable to assume that the Fighter would know an enemy might come from a portal that leads to locations unfathomable in a world of sorcery and magic?
How does the Fighter know it's a portal? It still doesn't matter, because that's not how surprise works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Yeah, the planetar has been doing that for awhile. We're aware.
How?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
sur·prise
sə(r)ˈprīz/
noun
noun: surprise; plural noun: surprises
1.
an unexpected or astonishing event, fact, or thing.
"the announcement was a complete surprise"
synonyms: shock, bolt from the blue, bombshell, revelation, rude awakening, eye-opener, wake-up call; informalshocker
"the test came as a big surprise"
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents
The fighter in this case is aware that something may step through the portal and attack him. He may not know it's a planetar but he's definitely aware of the potential threat and is therefore aware of his enemy the moment it steps out of that barrier. You can't make up definition of words.
No, being aware of Gate isn't the same as being aware of the Planetar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
By knowing everything about the fighter, who he is, that he's hunting him, etc but the Fighter isn't even aware the planetar even exists? That's the very definition of metagaming.
- Being aware of the Fighter is necessary for this scenario, or else the Fighter has to be hunting the Planetar.
- The Planetar can see the future; funny how he might know about threatening Fighters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
It's beginning to sound like Dread Sorcerer King here. "Dread Cleric Planetar has a combo. Fighter doesn't know planetar and so can't counter the planetar's strategy! Fighter doesn't know he's coming, doesn't know he exists, and he ambushes fighter! Try to beat combo!"
If we continue arguing are you going to come up with a combo 2 or 3? Also, I'm aware. Fighter side has done the same thing. Doesn't make the tactic right or valid.
Prove my tactics are wrong, then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Accordance to your understanding.
Which are based on the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Knowing everything about the Fighter and knowing to cast the spells you have chosen despite no combat taking place or anything without the Fighter ever being aware of the planetar? Yes.
I covered this earlier in my response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Because he is aware that an enemy is coming through the gate and is ready for action. This means he won't be surprised because being ready from an attack in a direction he knows the attack is coming is the complete opposite of being surprised. REady does not mean "Surprised." You don't get to re-write the definition on words.
Except that's not how surprise works; the Fighter wasn't aware of the Planetar prior to it stepping through Gate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
How does he know the Fighter is threatening? Even by the book the average level 16 fighter dies to the "Typical tactics" listed. Metagaming.
How many times to have to say that the Planetar can see the future before it sinks in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Planetar casts gate. Fighter see's gate. Fighter becomes aware of planetar as planetar steps into gate. Roll combat.
I guess you don't understand free actions either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
If he's at the edge of the control winds why can't the fighter just back track?
Backtrack, to where exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Not to mention holy smite doesn't even work on good aligned characters which most are.
If the Fighter is good-aligned, how is he going to kill the Planetar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
If the Planetar leaves the fight is over. The encounter is won.
Not if the Planetar kills him in his sleep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Why can't both? Maybe the fighter was told there's an insane planetar hunting down fighters and is on a quest to kill the fallen planetar (or what he believes to be a fallen planetar) while the Planetar has heard there's a fighter masquerading as a hero who's on a quest to kill angels? The two are now hunting each other. Look, this is my problem with PvP fights. In a real campaign in some missions maybe the planetar knows who this particular fighter is and has a reason to go after him or maybe the fighter walks in on the planetar who was in the process of slaying some demon scum. In a real game the Planetar may get stumbled upon or may stumble upon the Fighter. If you want to do a proper PvP death match maybe do one where the Fighter is hunting the Planetar, the Planetar is hunting the Fighter and there's also a neutral battle where both are hunting each other?
Fine, but how is the Fighter supposed to find the Planetar?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Unless you want to go dread sorcerer king route where the Fighter is not allowed to know the Planetar and the Planetar instantly starts using his Dread Cleric Combo.
So, the Fighter can also see the future?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
So in a chance encounter the Planetar quickly retreats, which causes the encounter to end, and then a new encounter begins where the Planetar tries to attack at the opportune moment when it has all of it's advantages? Looks like a 50/50 fight.
If the Planetar is caught with it's pants down it dies. If the Planetar encounters the fighter in an open field and both are as easily surprised to see each other. Planetar dies. The planetar wins when it is aware of the fighter in advance and has all of it's ducks lined up to get to perfect ambush on the fighter. Even then it's debatable.
- The Planetar has better Spot checks than the Fighter, can see the future, teleport to other planes of existence, and can turn invisible; I'd say it has the upper hand as far as escaping as concerned.
- The Planetar can use its powers to choose when and where the battle takes place, while the Fighter cannot.
- The Fighter dies if the Planetar attacks him while he's sleeping.
@Everyone
I'm done arguing surprise rules with people; it's clearly going nowhere, so I'm dropping it.
Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I too have seen this, on both sides, though mostly on the not-fighter side (To be honest, mostly CBN. Beheld makes good arguments for the same side).
God forbid I don't accept unproven assertions that aren't based on the rules in any way shape or form.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
No it prefers using suicidal strategies like gating into a waiting fighter who can end him in a FRA.
Even a standard action multiattack likely kills the Planetar. It just doesn't have many hp.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Let me get this straight; you've been arguing about surprise without understanding the rules involved?
Far from it. I have pointed out how I read the rules, and we disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
So now the Planetar has to stop the Fighter's sinister plot?
Not really a sinister plot. Achieving a goal. I think that is a rather used RPG trope for enemies, whether objective is killing the monsters, looting a dungeon, rescuing a princess, whatever. It has to stop the fighter before the fighter can succeed. The scenario assumes it has no control over the objective, and thus cannot, for example, move it out of reach. Because, as you said it, if it can do that there is no scenario.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
The list of perks to the Fighter are just piling up, aren't they? Planetars have a +23 to Spot, it's more likely to see the Fighter first.
In the scenario suggested, spot is not called for since neither side knew to hide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
It does matter, because it gives one side an undue advantage, and is implausible.
A scenario where the Planetar 'just knows' to start looking for info on the fighter is giving it an undue advantage. This, in theory, only gives advantage to the one with the higher initiative modifier, and I would hardly call it unique in that regard.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I (potentially) double post in order to not be missed and clarify my surprise question:
The Planetar's actions, in order, are as follows:
Cast invisibility on self.
Cast Gate.
Step through Gate
Cast Control Winds.
At which point do you roll initiative? By my interpretation, it is either 'Before casting Gate' or 'Before casting Control Winds'. In the first, there is a surprise round, in the next, there isn't. I see no rules disproving this, and no rules allowing for anything else. Feel free to prove me wrong.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
@Anthrowhale
I warned you about ignoring my posts, now I'm done with you.
That isn't enough---you need to ignore everyone else pointing out the same rules.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Except knowledge advantages aren't undue when you're the one with divinations available and while not even having divinations your enemy has no knowledge skills, no trade skills, and due to sacrificing two of his three skills to attempt stealth can see pretty well but is deaf. Yeah that knowledge advantage is totally arbitrary and not an acknowledgement that your fighters are fat sacks of hit points with a sword arm and no utility at all.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Far from it. I have pointed out how I read the rules, and we disagree.
I said I was done with the surprise debates, and I meant it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Not really a sinister plot. Achieving a goal. I think that is a rather used RPG trope for enemies, whether objective is killing the monsters, looting a dungeon, rescuing a princess, whatever. It has to stop the fighter before the fighter can succeed. The scenario assumes it has no control over the objective, and thus cannot, for example, move it out of reach. Because, as you said it, if it can do that there is no scenario.
Let's flip this around; how is the Fighter supposed to stop the Planetar from achieving its goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
In the scenario suggested, spot is not called for since neither side knew to hide.
That isn't how it works:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD Wilderness
Stealth and Detection in a Forest
In a sparse forest, the maximum distance at which a Spot check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 3d6×10 feet. In a medium forest, this distance is 2d8×10 feet, and in a dense forest it is 2d6×10 feet.
Similar text exists for all terrain types; spot checks are used to determine when encounters begin.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
A scenario where the Planetar 'just knows' to start looking for info on the fighter is giving it an undue advantage. This, in theory, only gives advantage to the one with the higher initiative modifier, and I would hardly call it unique in that regard.
I'm talking about the two randomly running into each other in a enclosed space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I (potentially) double post in order to not be missed and clarify my surprise question:
The Planetar's actions, in order, are as follows:
Cast invisibility on self.
Cast Gate.
Step through Gate
Cast Control Winds.
At which point do you roll initiative? By my interpretation, it is either 'Before casting Gate' or 'Before casting Control Winds'. In the first, there is a surprise round, in the next, there isn't. I see no rules disproving this, and no rules allowing for anything else. Feel free to prove me wrong.
After Control Winds is cast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
That isn't enough---you need to ignore everyone else pointing out the same rules.
No one on team Fighter are pointing to any rules to support their arguments; I'm done responding to you because you ignore what I post.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
I said I was done with the surprise debates, and I meant it.
Let's flip this around; how is the Fighter supposed to stop the Planetar from achieving its goals.
That isn't how it works:
Similar text exists for all terrain types; spot checks are used to determine when encounters begin.
I'm talking about the two randomly running into each other in a enclosed space.
After Control Winds is cast.
No one on team Fighter are pointing to any rules to support their arguments; I'm done responding to you because you ignore what I post.
You know if you go to someone's profile you can add them to your ignore list. From that point you won't see the actual content of their posts. Just that a post is there and theirs, the option to view it, and the option to remove them from your ignore list. Why do I bring this up? Letting someone rile you into responding to them after you said you were done with them is letting them have a small victory. Stop that.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ryu
You know if you go to someone's profile you can add them to your ignore list. From that point you won't see the actual content of their posts. Just that a post is there and theirs, the option to view it, and the option to remove them from your ignore list. Why do I bring this up? Letting someone rile you into responding to them after you said you were done with them is letting them have a small victory. Stop that.
Fair enough, I'm honestly considering ignoring this thread all together, since it's been going nowhere for a while now.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Wow this thread got stupid. So far we have:
-People claiming that the Planetar is a PC if it uses it's printed abilities intelligently.
-People claiming that the Fighter will always be able to run away if the battle isn't in his favor, but the Planetar can't do the same. Even though the Planetar is more than capable tracking its opponent down, unlike the Fighter.
-People claiming that the Fighter will know what a Gate is with no RAW explanation as to how.
-Lastly people comparing the outsider side to Lord Drako. What's next? Are you going to compare us to Hitler, or just call us Doo-doo heads?
But the best part is that all of this is pointless, because nobody has proposed a meaningful counter to chain-Gating Titans. It's not TO because we only need 5 or so.
And the ugly truth that the Fighter side doesn't want to acknowledge is that other classes can counter this tactic. The tier 1s and 2s can just gate in their own Titans as a counter.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
Wow this thread got stupid. So far we have:
-People claiming that the Planetar is a PC if it uses it's printed abilities intelligently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
-People claiming that the Fighter will always be able to run away if the battle isn't in his favor, but the Planetar can't do the same. Even though the Planetar is more than capable tracking its opponent down, unlike the Fighter.
The fighter is a PC. His loss conditions are death and failing to achieve a goal. The monster's loss condition (in a random encounter) is failing to cause the Fighter to lose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
-People claiming that the Fighter will know what a Gate is with no RAW explanation as to how.
A gate is a thing. A big glowy?, non-friendly thing. In a world as filled with hostile creatures, just about any phenomenon warrants arming oneself, and Gate is no exception. One can see that the area beyond the gate is not the same as what is behind it, so it follows that it leads someplace else, or is an illusion. I do not believe anyone has claimed to be aware of specifics of the Gate
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
-Lastly people comparing the outsider side to Lord Drako. What's next? Are you going to compare us to Hitler, or just call us Doo-doo heads?
I see the same tendency for sides to talk past one another in this thread (quite possibly on my part as well).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
But the best part is that all of this is pointless, because nobody has proposed a meaningful counter to chain-Gating Titans. It's not TO because we only need 5 or so.
I do not believe that there is an universally accepted definition of the line between PO and TO. For me, Chain-gating is always past that. For you, evidently not. Irreconcilable disagreement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
And the ugly truth that the Fighter side doesn't want to acknowledge is that other classes can counter this tactic. The tier 1s and 2s can just gate in their own Titans as a counter.
I have done no such thing. I will point out that I personally find such game neither engaging or interesting, and nothing compels me to use such. In fact, I'm fairly sure that the pro-fighter side has acknowledged your point repeatedly. I have.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
The fighter is a PC. His loss conditions are death and failing to achieve a goal. The monster's loss condition (in a random encounter) is failing to cause the Fighter to lose.
Oh, I see, we're giving the Fighter perks then. Neither side can have the advantage in this battle or the fight is meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
A gate is a thing. A big glowy?, non-friendly thing. In a world as filled with hostile creatures, just about any phenomenon warrants arming oneself, and Gate is no exception. One can see that the area beyond the gate is not the same as what is behind it, so it follows that it leads someplace else, or is an illusion. I do not believe anyone has claimed to be aware of specifics of the Gate
So you outright admit that Fighter will have no way of discerning what this thing is, yet people are still claiming that he'll know it's a portal.
Also, it doesn't matter how obvious you claim it is, he still needs a RAW way of determining what it is. You might claim that a guy shooting Fire from his hands is obviously magic, but RAW you'd need to make a spellcraft check in order to determine that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I do not believe that there is an universally accepted definition of the line between PO and TO. For me, Chain-gating is always past that. For you, evidently not. Irreconcilable disagreement.
So the Fighter loses then.
And the fact that other classes can easily counter it is exactly the reason why I don't think that it's TO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I have done no such thing. I will point out that I personally find such game neither engaging or interesting, and nothing compels me to use such. In fact, I'm fairly sure that the pro-fighter side has acknowledged your point repeatedly. I have.
Funny, all I saw was people complaining that it was TO.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
No, being aware of Gate isn't the same as being aware of the Planetar.
Fighter: There is some strange portal that has appeared before me. I will ready my bow and shoot whatever comes out! Oh no! Something came out I am surprised!
This is how rational people think according to colorblindninja and his poor understanding of surprise rules. Getting so shocked they do nothing because what they expected happened exactly as they expected.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
Oh, I see, we're giving the Fighter perks then. Neither side can have the advantage in this battle or the fight is meaningless.
No. This was a PC vs monster question. In a PVP-style arena (not a literal arena), it's not even a contest. Planetar wins, a fact I've seen acknowledged. We discuss a PvE scenario
[/QUOTE]So you outright admit that Fighter will have no way of discerning what this thing is, yet people are still claiming that he'll know it's a portal.
Also, it doesn't matter how obvious you claim it is, he still needs a RAW way of determining what it is. You might claim that a guy shooting Fire from his hands is obviously magic, but RAW you'd need to make a spellcraft check in order to determine that.[/QUOTE]
Actually, you only need Spellcraft to identify the particular spell. Once more I must speak for Pathfinder, where it is clarified, but magic is always obvious, no check. Even spell-like abilities are always, automatically identified as magic. In fact, one can always even tell who cast it. If you want to know what it DOES though, you'd better roll Spellcraft. I'm not sure if 3.5 says anything on this subject one way or another. You can infer anything you want from the description (provided by the spell or GM), which could easily be wrong. Some spells are obvious, others are not.
[/QUOTE]So the Fighter loses then.
And the fact that other classes can easily counter it is exactly the reason why I don't think that it's TO.[/QUOTE]
Is your claim that no classes are capable of TO? And thus if a class can do it, it isn't TO? Because otherwise this point is moot.
Funny, all I saw was people complaining that it was TO.[/QUOTE]
I did, as said above. TO is not a fixed line. Or rather, can you tell me a universal definition? If not, I'll hold on to mine, you hold on to yours.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Fighter: There is some strange portal that has appeared before me.
The portal, that by RAW, the Fighter can't identify.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
I will ready my bow and shoot whatever comes out!
The Fighter that doesn't get a chance to get ready, because, free actions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhyltran
Oh no! Something came out I am surprised!
This is how rational people think according to colorblindninja and his poor understanding of surprise rules. Getting so shocked they do nothing because what they expected happened exactly as they expected.
No, that's how the rules work.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
The only thing that makes anything a PC is to be controlled by a player; if the DM controls it, it's an NPC, full stop.
As you wish. Per the DMG, NPCs have ECL of RHD+LA+class levels (same as PCs), and CR of ECL-1 (one less than PCs). That still puts the Planetar NPC's proper opposition well into Epic Levels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
Wow this thread got stupid. So far we have:
-People claiming that the Planetar is a PC if it uses it's printed abilities intelligently.
-People claiming that the Fighter will always be able to run away if the battle isn't in his favor, but the Planetar can't do the same. Even though the Planetar is more than capable tracking its opponent down, unlike the Fighter.
But the best part is that all of this is pointless, because nobody has proposed a meaningful counter to chain-Gating Titans. It's not TO because we only need 5 or so.
And the ugly truth that the Fighter side doesn't want to acknowledge is that other classes can counter this tactic. The tier 1s and 2s can just gate in their own Titans as a counter.
Actually this thread got educational. Believe it or not, there's a core mechanic called Level Adjustment created wholly to account for when people try to play monsters as (N)PCs. When they do, their CR changes! DMs are given full authority to slap the "clever" player who tried to sneak a monster as character while claiming its character level is its MM CR, instead of RHD+LA.
Or you may learn that it is customary to reward the PCs with experience for monsters that flee. So it isn't like we object to a Planetar (played as a monster, not NPC) fleeing, we're just pointing out it will reward the PC Fighter with experience and really be counted as defeated.
And just so you know, tiers 5s and 6s can also gate in their titans with the likes of UMD and Leadership. It comes with being a PC. Now, the pro-Fighter crowd is trying to be nice and stay away from UMD and Leadership, but if your best answer to niceness is chain-gating, well then...
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
As you wish. Per the DMG, NPCs have ECL of RHD+LA+class levels (same as PCs), and CR of ECL-1 (one less than PCs). That still puts the Planetar NPC's proper opposition well into Epic Levels.
Actually this thread got educational. Believe it or not, there's a core mechanic called Level Adjustment created wholly to account for when people try to play monsters as (N)PCs. When they do, their CR changes! DMs are given full authority to slap the "clever" player who tried to sneak a monster as character while claiming its character level is its MM CR, instead of RHD+LA.
Those rules only apply to PCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
Or you may learn that it is customary to reward the PCs with experience for monsters that flee. So it isn't like we object to a Planetar (played as a monster, not NPC) fleeing, we're just pointing out it will reward the PC Fighter with experience and really be counted as defeated.
It doesn't matter, the Fighter dies later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
And just so you know, tiers 5s and 6s can also gate in their titans with the likes of UMD and Leadership. It comes with being a PC.
You'll impress no one with tactics a Commoner can use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
Now, the pro-Fighter crowd is trying to be nice and stay away from UMD and Leadership, but if your best answer to niceness is chain-gating, well then...
This again? We've had Fighter abusing UMD, Fighters abusing magic items, and Fighters abusing Tower Shields; care to retract that claim?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
No. This was a PC vs monster question. In a PVP-style arena (not a literal arena), it's not even a contest. Planetar wins, a fact I've seen acknowledged. We discuss a PvE scenario
You're still claiming that the Fighter doesn't lose if he runs away, but the planetar does lose if it runs away. You are given the Fighter an unfair advantage. Also, the Planetar is more than capable of hunting the Fighter down, the Fighter can't do the same for the planetar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Actually, you only need Spellcraft to identify the particular spell. Once more I must speak for Pathfinder, where it is clarified, but magic is always obvious, no check. Even spell-like abilities are always, automatically identified as magic. In fact, one can always even tell who cast it. If you want to know what it DOES though, you'd better roll Spellcraft. I'm not sure if 3.5 says anything on this subject one way or another. You can infer anything you want from the description (provided by the spell or GM), which could easily be wrong. Some spells are obvious, others are not.
This isn't PF, and since you don't seem to know much about 3.5 why then are you arguing on this thread?
Also, in 3.5 you need to make a check to determine if something is magic at all, no matter how "obvious" it seems. In fact, ToB shows that you can perform "obviously" magical effects without magic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Is your claim that no classes are capable of TO? And thus if a class can do it, it isn't TO? Because otherwise this point is moot.
No, TO is definitely a thing, but since this particular strategy can be countered with ease and simplicity I don't consider it TO. Especially since the Planetar is only summoning 5 Titans.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
And just so you know, tiers 5s and 6s can also gate in their titans with the likes of UMD and Leadership. It comes with being a PC. Now, the pro-Fighter crowd is trying to be nice and stay away from UMD and Leadership, but if your best answer to niceness is chain-gating, well then...
Funny, cause I seem to recall the "nice" Fighter side trying to abuse those very same tactics.
It really doesn't prove anything about the Fighter's viability if he uses tactics that even a commoner can abuse.
EDIT; In fact I am being nice, I'm putting an arbitrary cap on the number of Titans that the Planetar can gate in. If someone can show that the Fighter can beat 5 Titans then I'll drop it.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
Those rules only apply to PCs.
Have you even read the DMG? These rules apply exactly as I said to NPCs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
You're still claiming that the Fighter doesn't lose if he runs away, but the planetar does lose if it runs away. You are given the Fighter an unfair advantage. Also, the Planetar is more than capable of hunting the Fighter down, the Fighter can't do the same for the planetar.
Yup, because the Planetar is just a monster. But I do get you, you want fairness, equality in agency for this challenge. Two characters of equal agency. Two PCs. One of ECL 20 (Fighter 20). One of ECL (RHD+LA)...so non-RAW, but certainly ECL 24 at the least, and quite possible more.
Some fairness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
It really doesn't prove anything about the Fighter's viability if he uses tactics that even a commoner can abuse.
But it does prove something about the perils of ill-conceived challenges against level 20 PCs.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tainted_Scholar
You're still claiming that the Fighter doesn't lose if he runs away, but the planetar does lose if it runs away. You are given the Fighter an unfair advantage. Also, the Planetar is more than capable of hunting the Fighter down, the Fighter can't do the same for the planetar.
This isn't PF, and since you don't seem to know much about 3.5 why then are you arguing on this thread?
Also, in 3.5 you need to make a check to determine if something is magic at all, no matter how "obvious" it seems. In fact, ToB shows that you can perform "obviously" magical effects without magic.
No, TO is definitely a thing, but since this particular strategy can be countered with ease and simplicity I don't consider it TO. Especially since the Planetar is only summoning 5 Titans.
When someone says that it's fair when a monster summons 'only' 5 monsters each more powerful than it, and the counter is to do the same, I feel there is a departure from some of the core gameplay. Others may not. Once it devolves into both sides having essentially the same abilities, the only question is who can do more or start earlier. To clarify my point. And equally, anyone can do it using magic items.
I reply to this thread rather than merely lurk, because it is educational. Slight differences in the rules aside, the games are practically the same ( - some abuses from 3.5, + some new ones I'm sure).
I'm sorry in advance if it turns out Titans are weaker than Planetars.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
Have you even read the DMG? These rules apply exactly as I said to NPCs.
NPCs with class levels, we use CR for creatures like Planetars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
Yup, because the Planetar is just a monster. But I do get you, you want fairness, equality in agency for this challenge. Two characters of equal agency. Two PCs. One of ECL 20 (Fighter 20). One of ECL (RHD+LA)...so non-RAW, but certainly ECL 24 at the least, and quite possible more.
Some fairness.
The Planetar isn't a PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
But it does prove something about the perils of ill-conceived challenges against level 20 PCs.
The only thing being proven here is your absurd twisting of the LA rules.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
When someone says that it's fair when a monster summons 'only' 5 monsters each more powerful than it, and the counter is to do the same, I feel there is a departure from some of the core gameplay.
How?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
Once it devolves into both sides having essentially the same abilities, the only question is who can do more or start earlier. To clarify my point. And equally, anyone can do it using magic items.
Which proves nothing about the viability of a Fighter as a class if he uses tactics that a commoner can abuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I reply to this thread rather than merely lurk, because it is educational. Slight differences in the rules aside, the games are practically the same ( - some abuses from 3.5, + some new ones I'm sure).
Okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kallimakus
I'm sorry in advance if it turns out Titans are weaker than Planetars.
No, they are stronger, but the Planetar is still only using it's official abilities to do this. I even limited it arbitrarily.
So, right now we are putting an arbitrarily limited Planetar up against a Fighter.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans
Persistent image only lasts 1 min/ level, so the pit fiend can't have hundreds going at once.
It lasts 18 minutes, and he can cast one every round, and there are 10 rounds in a minute. I'm sorry that 180 isn't technically hundreds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
That is incorrect. Mummy Despair operates based on LOS.
If only you ever actually read the rules, you would know this is wrong because gaze attacks are limited to 30ft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
That isn't enough---you need to ignore everyone else pointing out the same rules.
HELP MY IRONY METER BROKE. The guy who ignored me because I posted an mathematical analysis of disarm attempts is upset that people are ignoring him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ColorBlindNinja
This again? We've had Fighter abusing UMD, Fighters abusing magic items, and Fighters abusing Tower Shields; care to retract that claim?
A Fighterer (or two) also insisted they get Leadership to.