Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XLIII: "This Is A New LoW For Us All"

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

I'ma stop you right there. Custodes are not Space Marines. Lore about who can and cannot become a Space Marine has absolutely nothing to do with the Custodian Guard, the creation process for which is cellular, not additional organs, and customized to the recipient, so there's no lore reason why it couldn't be customized to a woman. If you're going to rant about the lore, at least do it properly.

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Of course, of course - you're missing the point: we've always been at war with East Asia.

Prior lore referred to noble sons being handed over. All the art-work, the way they were written and referred to etc they were all male. If you want to bring in Lady Custodes, do so along the lines of the Primaris Marines - something new for X purposes. Maybe say they were Sisters of Battle veterans who performed exceedingly well and were elevated or something. Some will grumble, most will let it slide if you create some cool stories and miniatures and rules around it. Have some stories or rules exploring how the new lady custodes assimilate/fit in with their new all-male colleagues, some of whom have been around for god knows how long. You could do a lot with it that makes most people happy and moves the lore forward.

What you don't do, is blatantly lie that it's always been the case (it clearly wasn't), then subsequently tell people who don't like being lied to to gtfo if they don't like it.

GW retcons things, they've done it plenty. But they've handled this with the care of a surgeon punching the patient into paralysis into of using anesthesia, and that this stinks of an ESG-appeasing move by GW for their investors and there's a current culture war going on around 'representation' etc has only added fuel to the fire of what we're seeing.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Okay. **** it. Let's say, next week GW says "Okay. That's cool."

Cawl has discovered how to turn females into Astartes (and Custodes). With the Great Rift open, Guilliman needs Cawl to figure out how to increase Astartes production rate by double digit percentage if they're going to defeat Chaos at this point. However, Cawl being Cawl, he already figured that he could increase Astartes production rate from anywhere from 25- to a full 100% if he could just get the XX-process working. So, true to form, Cawl actually started this project centuries ago without Guilliman's permission - Cawl has always been under the impression that it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission. Especially if your project was actually successful. The leaps and bounds in technology made during the Rubicon project made this possible.

Furthermore. "No men under arms. Get it?" That's some cute bulls* right there. Guilliman sees through your asinine behavior. Guilliman has read Lorgar's book. While it galls Guilliman no end...Lorgar might have a point. Guilliman has seen Lorgar's point first-hand in the 42nd millenium. He's seen his own Space Marines fall under the Imperial Creed and many of his Space Marines are even under the thumb of Ecclesiarchy anyway - though they would deny it. Guilliman demands that the Ecclesiarchy either close the loophole and disband the Sororitas, or simply rewrite the Decree and become the Ecclesiarchy Militarum.

There's no retcons.
This is new, additional canon, that says "Cawl fixed it." and Guilliman says the Ecclesiarchy's "loophole" for Sororitas isn't cute anymore. Welcome to 11th Ed.

Now what?

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Go ahead. Hell, make a legion of lady marines that are one of Fabius Bile's newest creations for all I care. Could even write that they were a missing battalion of Adeptus Sororitas that were actually captured and experimented on, before rebelling against Fabius and now show suicidal fanaticism towards the emperor to prove their worth as defenders of the Imperium due to their misbegotten genesis. At least you're not gas-lighting the fanbase into claiming something has always been so when you've only just changed it now to suit your investors and nags on twitter.

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The canon can burn for all I give a **** at this point.

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I thought as much.

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Originally Posted by BananaPhone

If you're a-okay with the company arbitrarily changing the lore {Scrubbing quote of post that was edited after it was quoted} and telling those who oppose it to leave, you'll get the fanbase you deserve.

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The only language that actually matters is the one that comes out of your wallet.
If you don't like it, stop buying it.
Eventually, the company either changes or dies.

If it changes; You win!
If it dies; Who gives a ****? You're already out.

I don't care about a fanbase for a product I no longer support, because I would no longer be in the fanbase. Why live in the past? I've got too much other **** to worry about. Something, something, the economy.

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At least you're not gas-lighting the fanbase into claiming something has always been...

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So you just don't like retcons?
Okay.
That's nothing.

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I thought as much.

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I don't care about XX-Custodes.
I care even less about the people complaining about them.
And I absolutely hate people complaining about people complaining about them.

{Deleted by me.}
Either buy the book or don't. Where you spend your money tells GW everything their investors need to know.
Voting with your wallet is the only language that businesses understand.

If you don't want to buy Custodes; Then don't. Buy Orks.
If you want to buy Custodes, but don't like XX-Custodes? ...Guess what? GW didn't even make any new models. So nothing matters. Keep doing whatever you want.

But if I've learned anything from the last week; No-one actually cares about toy soldiers:
- How many points is a Warden? Did the cost go up or down?
- Name me one Relic from the new book.
- Tell me the Trait for just one Detachment.
The reviews have been made. Is the Codex good or bad? But who cares? Remember that one line that says XX-Custodes exist?

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

The only language that actually matters is the one that comes out of your wallet.
If you don't like it, stop buying it.

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I edited that part of my post that you refer to. I reflected on it and thought it wasn't very constructive, so changed it.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Shut the **** up.

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Cool, welcome to ignore-ville then.

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Originally Posted by BananaPhone

Cool, welcome to ignore-ville then.

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Welcome to voting with your wallet.

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Also, we finally made it to page 49! After nearly two years this is longest (in duration that is, threads are 50 pages...) 40K thread I can remember.

XLIV:
'Member when the Waaagh! could do anything?
Dakkajets go brrrrttt!!!
Goodbye to Badrukk's Hat.
'Member when 40K was fun?
Add *THAT* to the list of things we don't talk about.
We made it through 9th Ed.

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Originally Posted by BananaPhone

It doesn't matter that most of the fanbase don't want to see it happen....

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Citation required.

It wasn't exaggeration or hyperbole earlier when I said that the ONLY place I've seen people complaining about this are on Twitter, many of whom are reposting their own repulsive YouTube comments as some kind of 'evidence'. This may be anecdotal on my part, as I certainly don't go seeking out such specimens, but it's exactly the sort of people one would expect to be as obnoxious as they are biased.

They don't speak for me, or anyone I know, or have discussed it with in the last ~month. They're loud, not numerous.

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What you don't do, is blatantly lie that it's always been the case (it clearly wasn't)

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There are approximately 10,000 Custodes active in the Imperium in the Great Crusade. Way, way more once you include those who have died and then been replaced over the next ten millennia.

Here's an exhaustive list of all of the ones we know about. There's less than 90 (or as sometimes refer to it, 0.9%) that have come up in the last 40 years, across what may well be over 1000 books.

"I personally haven't see it, therefore it can't be true" is not a strong point from which to make an argument.

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Anyways, today I'm going to undertake the arduous task of unboxing and cataloguing my Grey Knights, to see where I can get started. I'm semi-decided on a high-contrast paint scheme, not quite the sort of Tron-style schemes that I think look great but I do NOT have the patience for that much edge lining, but also not quite as heavy/encompassing as the synthwave style either.

More like this sort of heavy weapon-glow effect. The image in question is a plasma gun with an LED built into it, but I think that the near-black Marine with a super-bright glowing item in their hands (in this case, the GK Nemesis Weapons will be Glacier Blue/White Scar) dry-brushed down one facing will be an interesting but efficient compromise on the Ghost Knights that I was planning.

Base coat black; super-light dry-brush of Leadbelcher all over; Paint the 'gold' emblems and iconography in a darker Brass colour; Wash with Nuln Oil; Go crazy with blue and white drybrushing and highlights on the weapon blade and the appropriate facing of the marine holding it. It might end up looking like playing with glow sticks in a dark room but... Meh, all my dudes are metal minis, another dunk in paint stripper won't hurt them.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Anyways, today I'm going to undertake the arduous task of unboxing and cataloguing my Grey Knights, to see where I can get started. I'm semi-decided on a high-contrast paint scheme, not quite the sort of Tron-style schemes that I think look great but I do NOT have the patience for that much edge lining, but also not quite as heavy/encompassing as the synthwave style either.

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Well I'm hyped.
Did I ever post the time I painted 1000 Points of Grey Knights like Thousand Sons? I quite like the Thousand Sons/Ahriman Blue teals. But obviously I can't paint Imperial Fists teal. :smallredface:

I would post photos of the minis I'm currently painting. But the camera part of my phone is broken, but the phone part of my phone, isn't. Which means I don't need a new phone.

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More like this sort of heavy weapon-glow effect. The image in question is a plasma gun with an LED built into it, but I think that the near-black Marine with a super-bright glowing item in their hands (in this case, the GK Nemesis Weapons will be Glacier Blue/White Scar) dry-brushed down one facing will be an interesting but efficient compromise on the Ghost Knights that I was planning.

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Black Grey Knights (and Custodes) look quite good. Only because most people are used to seeing them Silver (and Gold).

The best way to get attention is to paint something the way you're not supposed to. Grey Knights are supposed to be grey, yes?

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Meh, all my dudes are metal minis, another dunk in paint stripper won't hurt them.

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For a second I thought you wrote "another drink of paint stripper", I was gonna make a probably not funny joke.


Thread XLIV: Drinking paint water.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

But obviously I can't paint Imperial Fists teal. :smallredface:

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I'm not calling you a coward. I'm not. That would be mean, and against board rules. :smallwink:

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For a second I thought you wrote "another drink of paint stripper", I was gonna make a probably not funny joke.

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I mean... I did kind of glue my tongue to one of my teeth while building those Salamanders, so I'm not exactly in any position to say what is and isn't funny in this regard. "Shots of Paint Water" at this point would probably be a none-zero possibiity. :smalltongue:

Doesn't a significant minority of the fanbase actively want or kitbash femstartes, with a second faction finding the idea of them having human genders silly? Honestly the biggest reason to keep the 'boys club only' but is that it's the most visible sign of the Emperor not being perfect beyond the whole Angron mess.

Your average fan doesn't give a crap, there's no way that Fulgrim hasn't tried out a vagina, it's not hard to imagine any of the Primarchs as having been Assigned Female At Warp Deposit (one has wings, a sex change is relatively minor), I really don't see how female Custodes are a big step.

Also, we don't have any female Custodes models yet. They might go the easy route, or they might make them completely indistinguishable from male Custodes. They could all be musclebound hulks with philosophy PhDs that just happen to have different things between their legs.

Hell once a Guardsman is in uniform you wouldn't really be able to tell their sex, let alone an Astartes or Custodes.

I don't see any particular reason to keep the Space Marines or Custodes all male anyway, it's not actually an important part of who and what they are. They're not all male for any reason other than no one bothered to make models or art of them as women. Contrasted with the Sororitas, who are all female for a reason, or the Bretonnian Knights in WHF who were sometimes all men* but whose sexism was framed to make them come across as overtly stupid and blinkered.


Space Marines/Custodes being all men doesn't tell you anything about them or the Imperium, because the secular parts of the Imperium they answer to aren't sexist otherwise, nor do they have a rule about soldiers to violate. It's just... there. The Imperium is mostly egalitarian when it comes to gender, oldest kid inherits, no one question women with power. There's not really anything for an all male order of warriors to inform, except maybe that the Imperium is more egalitarian than pre-Unification Terra was since daughters are of equal value to sons.

The Sororitas being all women tells you the Ecclesiarchy is a bunch of shifty bastards, because they have a rule and deliberately looked for a loophole. The Ecclesiarchy being shifty bastards in turn informs a lot of the setting, because it fits into the broader themes of Imperial hypocrisy and systemic corruption.


*Edition changes and all that. I actually prefer the Bretonnians as 'sexist but too stupid to do it properly' rather than being somewhat egalitarian like the Empire. Keeps a bit of contrast.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

I don't see any particular reason to keep the Space Marines or Custodes all male anyway, it's not actually an important part of who and what they are. They're not all male for any reason other than no one bothered to make models or art of them as women. Contrasted with the Sororitas, who are all female for a reason, or the Bretonnian Knights in WHF who were sometimes all men* but whose sexism was framed to make them come across as overtly stupid and blinkered.

...


*Edition changes and all that. I actually prefer the Bretonnians as 'sexist but too stupid to do it properly' rather than being somewhat egalitarian like the Empire. Keeps a bit of contrast.

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There are a couple of open faced helmet heads with feminine features in the Knights of the Realm on Foot kit. :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

There are a couple of open faced helmet heads with feminine features in the Knights of the Realm on Foot kit. :smallwink:

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I'm doing a Mousillon army themed after Maldred during the Affair of the False Grail, so Malory de Mousillon is going to be making an appearance as a Foot Paladin.

Most if not all my knights will be wearing closed helmets, as is Mousillon tradition, so sadly overtly feminine (or masculine) faces are probably not going to see any use.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

I don't see any particular reason to keep the Space Marines or Custodes all male anyway, it's not actually an important part of who and what they are. They're not all male for any reason other than no one bothered to make models or art of them as women. Contrasted with the Sororitas, who are all female for a reason, or the Bretonnian Knights in WHF who were sometimes all men* but whose sexism was framed to make them come across as overtly stupid and blinkered.

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I personally see it as 'the Imperium isn't sexist, but the Emperor was', but I also don't go with the official 'Space Marines require an XY chromosome pair line'. Instead I just present Space Marines as being so thoroughly brainwashed that no matter what they identified as before they're all male now. There's actually quite a few ways to deal with the 'no girls' rule that allow it to remain technically intact, ffs the process hijacks puberty.

Note that the Sisters of Battle are less 'looking for a loophole' and more 'intentionally writing a loophole in'. I suspect we'll eventually see Brothers of Battle but probably restricted to support units in a 'technically not under arms' justification. Heck I can see GW really wanting to push the 'Emperor as a Law Deity' angle and using Faith to give the Imperium more pseudo-psykers.

On Bretonnia: I remember Fantasy models being pretty consistently male-only, and I think that was at least partially the history emulating part of the setting. Female models tended to be Characters, although I think the art and WFRP were a bit more varied. But I also drifted away during like 6e.

As a new guy in this i just must say that I'm disappointed, 40k is just one of those franchises with so much interesting lore {scrubbed} don't play a role and the overall setting is just so evil and neutral that I loved it just as I saw a video with the lore, that was 2 years ago, this is really unknown in America outside of the US and Canada, I have helped 2 stores to make tournaments because the game is so amazing and I've just read 4 books but I really enjoyed most of them.

This is a bit sad for me, it's not ruining the franchise or anything like that but it was cool to have something good with people who cared about their product. I really hate when corporations look to get the esg score up, GW just makes mountains of cash, it makes no sense to me.

Of the.. maybe 30 or so? people I've talked to who I know for a fact buy models, only one was even remotely against the idea of female Custodes. The rest were either in favour, or indifferent. For my part, I'm somewhere between in favour and not really caring. It's nice they did it, but it doesn't affect me personally.

GW updating lore has been a thing for ages. I'm still grumpy about the Necrons. I'm also on record here as being perfectly happy to just ignore lore I don't like, so take that as you will.

I do find it a little amusing (in some ways) to see people pop up out of the woodwork just to complain about women being included.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

I don't see any particular reason to keep the Space Marines or Custodes all male anyway, it's not actually an important part of who and what they are. They're not all male for any reason other than no one bothered to make models or art of them as women. Contrasted with the Sororitas, who are all female for a reason, or the Bretonnian Knights in WHF who were sometimes all men* but whose sexism was framed to make them come across as overtly stupid and blinkered.


Space Marines/Custodes being all men doesn't tell you anything about them or the Imperium, because the secular parts of the Imperium they answer to aren't sexist otherwise, nor do they have a rule about soldiers to violate. It's just... there. The Imperium is mostly egalitarian when it comes to gender, oldest kid inherits, no one question women with power. There's not really anything for an all male order of warriors to inform, except maybe that the Imperium is more egalitarian than pre-Unification Terra was since daughters are of equal value to sons.

The Sororitas being all women tells you the Ecclesiarchy is a bunch of shifty bastards, because they have a rule and deliberately looked for a loophole. The Ecclesiarchy being shifty bastards in turn informs a lot of the setting, because it fits into the broader themes of Imperial hypocrisy and systemic corruption.


*Edition changes and all that. I actually prefer the Bretonnians as 'sexist but too stupid to do it properly' rather than being somewhat egalitarian like the Empire. Keeps a bit of contrast.

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I mean, the Custodes have no reason to be all male, but Space marines do. Space marines get all transmogrified to be more like their Primarchs. Which kills people if they're too different or incompatible to start with which includes being female for whatever reason.

Like female custodes are fine because there was never really a reason for them to be all male and it didn't make sense anyway, because the Emperor basically said he intended for all of humanity to be like the Custodes eventually anyway. Space Marines are different. They have an actual reason.

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Originally Posted by F13rr0

As a new guy in this i just must say that I'm disappointed, 40k is just one of those franchises with so much interesting lore {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

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{Scrubbed}

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Originally Posted by druid91

I mean, the Custodes have no reason to be all male, but Space marines do. Space marines get all transmogrified to be more like their Primarchs. Which kills people if they're too different or incompatible to start with which includes being female for whatever reason.

Like female custodes are fine because there was never really a reason for them to be all male and it didn't make sense anyway, because the Emperor basically said he intended for all of humanity to be like the Custodes eventually anyway. Space Marines are different. They have an actual reason.

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That's not really the same sort of thing though, that's a post-hoc justification for the lack of female space marines, whereas Sororitas have had the 'men under arms' hypocrisy at their heart since they were first made a thing as I understand.

Sometimes lore follows from models, GW made more than a few things fit into their settings because they already had models for them back in the day, but sometimes models follow lore, which in GW context generally meant models follow some sort of pop-culture reference or joke.


I don't think that when the space marines were first conceived of that them all being dudes was part of the idea, except maybe when they changed from fascist space cops to being a parody of knightly orders, it was just that all the ones they made turned out to be guys in the vein of various pop-culture heroes at the time and when asked about it they just made some **** up to explain it and it stuck.

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Originally Posted by Grim Portent

I don't think that when the space marines were first conceived of that them all being dudes was part of the idea, except maybe when they changed from fascist space cops to being a parody of knightly orders, it was just that all the ones they made turned out to be guys in the vein of various pop-culture heroes at the time and when asked about it they just made some **** up to explain it and it stuck.

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The reason that is generally accepted for this, backed up by off-hand comments from some writers like Aaron Demobski-Bowden, is two-fold.

On the one hand, the first Space Marine minis were made in the 1980's when GW was still 3 guys working out of their garden shed. Sculpting is hard and moulds are expensive, so they made like a dozen models all in chunky armour that were genderless; all minis were masculine rather than male, because of the limitation of the funding and the technology. The game started to take off, and they got locked into their iconic look and it took nearly a decade before they could start to do anything about it.

Even then, when GW could invest in expanding their range, an early exec made a call; "players don't want female minis, just make them all men". Because at the time, wargaming was absolutely a boys' club and things like gender representation hadn't been invented yet. Ah, the 1980's and casual misogyny, name a more iconic pair.

Second Edition came out, the game took off, and someone had to throw together lore that wasn't carbon-copied from Dune so they stuck with what they had. By the time that Third Edition rolled around, it was 'too late' to go back and change the thing that everyone loved. The game was big enough to expand and go global, but probably not in a stable enough position to actively turn away customers. One might call that cowardly from a moral point of view, but... business is business.

7 Editions and 20 years later, GW can afford to be more picky about their fanbase and what sort of attitudes they want in their community; so they doubled-down on their 2020 message about bigots not being welcome in the hobby. Frankly, I agree with their choice from every angle - not in the least because the same people who felt "attacked" by GW's anti-bigot statement (which says everything that you need to know about those people...) are the same ones who feel "attacked" by their "girls aren't icky" statement as well.

Good for GW, I say. They've put quite a lot of steps wrong in the last 10 years, but this ain't one of them.

First off. ****.
Nobody is saying anything new and this conversation goes 'round and 'round in circles and everyone is talking as part of the culture war, and not how it affects the hobby.

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Originally Posted by Wraith

Ah, the 1980's and casual misogyny, name a more iconic pair.

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The '80s and shoulder pads.
The '80s and brown glass.

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GW can afford to be more picky about their fanbase...

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Partial disagree.

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are the same ones who feel "attacked" by their "girls aren't icky" statement as well.

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1. Most are more concerned with with the retcon, than the content itself. As usual "Everything is canon, nothing is true" doesn't hold water and IMO never has. As usual the thing I've always been most annoyed about is the existence of Cawl. Consistency is key. If we - the consumer - are taught to believe that nothing matters, well then we'll stop being invested. I don't like that they went back and changed Inquisition War. It's the first 40K novel/series I ever read and it had a Squat in it. The ending was too dark. It was too weird in places. But it is what I read and it is why I'm in this hobby, now. Retcons are bad for consumer investment 'cause it says everything they've like up until this point has been meaningless. You should be able to go back and enjoy the things from your past.

"There have always been XX-Custodes." ...No there hasn't. But. BUT. If you can say "There are XX-Custodes going forwards from now on." That would be fine.

"XX-Custodes are good. But retcons are bad." Great. Agreed. If you say anything other than exactly this, I'm probably not going to listen to anything else you say. One day there will be female Space Marines. Not today. Not tomorrow. But there will be. I'm sure of it. And when that day comes, I hope the in-Universe reason makes sense.

2. Voting with your wallet. It's the only thing that works, and it works nearly every time. However, the reason I suspect that I'm not hearing calls for boycotts, is because anyone legitimately complaining about this change hasn't bought a model or novel anyway in a long, long time. You can't actually boycott what you're not already buying. So people are just complaining literally just to complain. They don't support GW and yet are mad that GW is ruining their own product? Why do you care what GW does if you're not supporting them? That's...Bizarre.

3. No new models. Okay so literally nothing changes (yet). When - or if - new XX-Custodes are released, you can always just not buy them. However, if GW is GW, the newest product is generally the most powerful product. So the XX-Custodes models will be power-creeped through the roof. What are you going to do? Not buy them? ...Just kidding. ****loads of people buy models they don't like because of the rules of the game. It's one of the most annoying things that GW does. "Model [A] is selling, so we should make more [A]." ...No, dummies. Rules [A] is selling and you should do more of that. None of your models are changing. You can still have what you like. Keep on trucking.

4. Vote with your wallet. Orks come out on the same day. Just buy Orks. They're the fun ones, remember? Just kidding, you wont buy Orks because nobody buys anything. See #2.

5. Buy all of the pre-10th novels to show your support. I can recommend Chris Wraight's Watchers of the Throne duology. The second novel has dope cover art (the models based on said cover art, are awful though). I also strongly recommend Master of Mankind. But ultimately there's not a lot of stories featuring Custodes and that's because there's nothing you can do with them...Except make them ladies. GW did that. And now they have nowhere to go with Custodes because that's literally the only thing they could do. Unless there's a direct attack on Terra again or something changes with the Emperor, they don't do anything. They can't do anything. "How do we make Custodes interesting before their Codex release...That'll do it. High fives all 'round."

6. Stop poisoning the community. We all hate GW for our own reasons. You don't have to try very hard to find a reason to complain about GW. Something, something Firstborn. Oh wait we forgot those exist. Whatever happened to building your own Chapter, Legion or Regiment? Remember when you could basically fully customise Tyranids? Does anyone else still get annoyed that wargear doesn't cost points and the lack of Force Organisation Charts makes the game lean heavily into a "Good Stuff Only"-meta? Remember when introductory boxes were affordable?

And why are the prices so high when the models are designed using CAD? I've got a mate who can 3D print me a whole unit for a shout at Nando's. What's going on, GW? Why is everything so expensive? ...Shipping? I guess?

...But instead of attacking GW for anything, the community is attacking each other for wrongthink. Now GW gets to tell its investors that the reason its profit went down 2% is because of chuds; Not because of bad business practices and bad rules not selling models. "Uhh...Weren't profits going down before the XX-Custodes thing?" Shush, you.

So we're going with...
XLIV: Take a Shot of Paint Water
...?

I don't recall the Blade Champion retcon being nearly as poorly received.

I do recall a bit of griping about "Another choppy character model" which wasn't what the Custodes could really have used at the time (or now, really) but the retcon aspect of it? No one cared.

That and not even 1% of the Ten Thousand have been named or featured in media, so there's nothing to say there weren't women among them. After all, English until recently used the male pronouns as the gender-neutral personal default, so nothing definitive ever established that there weren't. As retcons go, this barely even qualifies.

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

As retcons go, this barely even qualifies.

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You never told me that!
Well, I'm telling you now.

It's like...A soft retcon. At worst, it's just filling in the blanks and not a retcon at all. Still..."Retcons make me mad." is the only argument I can agree with, even if it is a weak retcon...To the point where it might not be retcon at all. It's like how in 8th Ed. every Captain from every Chapter got a name and a title. It's not necessarily a retcon. But it is, like...What? Why would you do this?
Remembering of course that it is a fictional narrative designed to sell toy soldiers so nothing matters. Okay. You gave every Captain a name and a title. That's annoying. But I'll find a way to get over it in three minutes.

ION:
Did Dark Angels get a new rule that I don't know about? ...Why does their Combat Patrol have a Gravis Captain, but nowhere for the Gravis Captain to go?

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Did Dark Angels get a new rule that I don't know about? ...Why does their Combat Patrol have a Gravis Captain, but nowhere for the Gravis Captain to go?

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A fair few Combat Patrols have similar issues (the basic marine one, for example, has two Terminator Heroes and only one unit). There'll be some combat patrol specific way around it, like letting him into an unusual unit or giving him Lone Operative.

I mostly agree with you Cheesegear. Not just that this entire issue is pointless outrage directed at the wrong target, but frankly because it's the same old story. Something happens, internet weirdos get angry about it, and 6 months later no one even remembers it.

People complained about Tau and Necrons "suddenly appearing" in a flash of Deus Ex Machina. People complained about it for days.... And then it suddenly wasn't a problem, both are beloved parts of the game (at least in lore, mechanically is always a separate issue). I had some rando on Facebook last night telling me that the internet was similarly outraged when Second Edition "changed everything, and I must have been hiding under a rock to not have noticed".

You know. The Great Second Edition FlameWar of... 1993. ~5 years before the internet was commercially available on anything like large scale. :smallconfused:

The point that I'm vaguely meandering towards, perhaps, is this:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

"XX-Custodes are good. But retcons are bad."

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Why?

Except for the sole and entire reason that if your only army happened to be Squats, why? The stuff you have already, still works. There's new stuff if you want it, and if you don't, options to buy 3rd party or convert are available.

MORE to the point - WHY, on such a scale that drivel from @imperiumofman88 and @hentaislaanesh69420 gets shouted out at the top of the community news? Something something social media, something something echo chambers, something something culture war, but Jesus H Christ couldn't the rest of us have learned by now not to feed the trolls?

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XLIV: Take a Shot of Paint Water

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Works for me. Can't go wrong with a bit of Good-Bad advice. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Wraith

I mostly agree with you Cheesegear. Not just that this entire issue is pointless outrage directed at the wrong target, but frankly because it's the same old story. Something happens, internet weirdos get angry about it, and 6 months later no one even remembers it.

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I'd be on board if something happened. I'm still mad about Firstborn:
- GW nerfed my models.
- GW nerfed my models again (but claimed it was a buff).
- GW buffed models I didn't have.
- GW claimed my models didn't sell as well as the newer stuff and discontinued my models - Legends-ing about 6000 Points I had.
Hey GW; You know I can see what you did, right? But also your business is to sell models and you did that. Well played.

The issue with the current...Issue. Is that nothing has happened, and internet weirdos are angry about it.

GW has BALEETED dozens of Stormcast models, Beastmen, Daemons, Orcs and Skaven... And some of those models are actually really good!
Surely that warrants...Something.

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Why?

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Retcons are bad because it trains the audience to believe that nothing matters.
If nothing matters, why consume?
That's a big part of the reason I stopped buying comic books.

And why we should basically buy nothing in 2026. Because GW has trained us to believe that a new edition (essentially a retcon to the whole game) drops every three years, now. Sure would suck if you bought a Guard, Votann or World Eaters Codex at the bottom end of 9th.

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Except for the sole and entire reason that if your only army happened to be Squats, why? The stuff you have already, still works.

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It sure does. That's not my complaint. GW discontinuing things is a whole different issue and absolutely not what is happening, here.
(Although it is happening right now in AoS, and obviously Firstborn)

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There's new stuff if you want it, and if you don't, options to buy 3rd party or convert are available.

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Partial agree.
As I said; If somebody cares that much, the best move would be to buy the Ork Codex that gets released on the same day. Or buy nothing.

Fortunately, I play neither Custodes nor Orks so all's I can do is buy more Space Marines...Which isn't helpful...Also I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

I'd be on board if something happened. I'm still mad about Firstborn:
- GW nerfed my models.
- GW nerfed my models again (but claimed it was a buff).
- GW buffed models I didn't have.
- GW claimed my models didn't sell as well as the newer stuff and discontinued my models - Legends-ing about 6000 Points I had.
Hey GW; You know I can see what you did, right? But also your business is to sell models and you did that. Well played.

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I used to play Chaos Marines. Half of what I own is either no longer usable or is so utterly awful rules-wise that playing it would be idiotic. I have a Chaos Lord on Bike, a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack and a Chaos Lord riding a Juggernaut, all of which are no longer available. Ditto my Sorcerer with Jump Pack and my Sorcerer on Disk. I have multiple squads of Chaos Marines with Bolter, Chainsword and a pair of Melta Guns, designed to ride into battle in Rhinos. None of this works anymore.

Of my 3500 points of Chaos I built in 6th edition, only about 1600 points of it are still even legal to field on the battlefield at all without going non-WYSIWYG, and most of those points are in Land Raider, Obliterator and Hellbrute. And this is an army that I put a huge amount of effort into converting to make scrupulously WYSIWYG at the time it was being built.

And nobody talks about how much Chaos stuff has been Squatted, because they did it one or two units and profiles at a time every time a book release happened for three editions.

Squatting models is increasingly becoming industry standard unfortunately. Warmachine and Hordes MK4 killed the majority of my factions models off and rendered some of my lists literally unplayable. Wyrd Games has been gradually trimming down Malifaux models as well, I know.

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Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV

I used to play Chaos Marines. Half of what I own is either no longer usable or is so utterly awful rules-wise that playing it would be idiotic.

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Chaos Marines have been split into 4 distinct Factions, now. Which is a pain in the arse.

World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children Undivided because Slaanesh is bad.

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I have a Chaos Lord on Bike, a Chaos Lord with Jump Pack and a Chaos Lord riding a Juggernaut, all of which are no longer available.

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Juggerlords still exist...In the World Eaters' Index.

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Sorcerer on Disk.

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They also still eixst...In the Thousand Sons Index.

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I have multiple squads of Chaos Marines with Bolter, Chainsword and a pair of Melta Guns, designed to ride into battle in Rhinos. None of this works anymore.

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You can still use your models. Nobody's taking them away from you!
Yeah but you nerfed the **** out of them.
Yeah but you can still use them so you're just a power gamer who is crying about nerfs.
...And in 1-2 years' time when the models you nerfed are no longer selling, you're going to Legends them.
You can still play with your Legends models.
Except I lose a bunch of Traits, and models wont syngergise with updated rules, because going forwards rules wont be designed with Legends models in mind.
Buy new models, then.
Touche.

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Of my 3500 points of Chaos I built in 6th edition, only about 1600 points of it are still even legal to field...

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So... Over 10 years ago?

I mean...Okay. Buy new models. ...This time it's not in blue text.

I've asked this question before:
Knowing GW's business model, how long do people think they'll actually be able to use their models (effectively) for?
I think 3-5 years is a pretty good run for most good units.
For bad units? ...I dunno. 18 months. However, you can always gamble and say that if a bad unit is bad, then surely GW will eventually buff them to sell more units? It's happened before and it will definitely happen again.
(No idea why Reivers just keep on getting shafted though. It's like GW doesn't even want to sell them. Just buff them to not be terrible!)

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And nobody talks about how much Chaos stuff has been Squatted, because they did it one or two units and profiles at a time every time a book release happened for three editions.

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What gets discontinued is usually telegraphed like a year in advance.

I made bank on my Firstborn. It sucked to sell them. But the writing was definitely on the wall in 8th Ed., and they weren't actually discontinued until late 9th.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

So... Over 10 years ago?

I mean...Okay. Buy new models. ...This time it's not in blue text.

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Yeah, the army came together 11 years ago. For sure. But I'm off the GW roller coaster, no new models for me. I mostly play Infinity these days, and the lifespan for models in that game is unlimited. Faction's model line discontinued for 6 years? Doesn't matter, the rules are always there, updated as the edition changes, and they'll get the occasional new model or rules refresh when they get too stale. Model replaced with newer, cooler model? Keep using it if you want, or buy the cool new one. All good. Character gets brainwashed and switches faction? It's fine, the guidelines let you use her as a more generic trooper. Infinity is my usual go-to example for how discontinuing model lines should be handled. I buy new Infinity models because they're cool and I like them, not because I have to spend at least $600 per year or big boss GW gets upset and revokes my gamer license.

Note also that GW used to be better about this. In nearly 15 years from 3rd edition to 7th edition they made sure to provide rules support for basically everything. It's only starting in 8th edition that the churn has made the idea that your models will no longer be valid for use in 5 years a fact of life. Sure, seep and creep meant that any given model might be bad rules-wise at any given point, but at least in the past I could use my Chaos army if I wanted to. Now I literally can't write a legal 2000 point list with over 3500 points of Chaos Marines. And it seems to be getting worse. AoS discontinued some models that were 3 years old or less, along with an announcement that their rules would never be updated again. That's crazy for a model company. 3 year old models should still be 'kinda new', not 'old decrepit garbage'.

Or, y'know, just play Tau or Eldar. Those models will probably be legal until the heat death of the universe, all things considered.

Anyways, I mostly popped in to agree with a sentiment. I still keep track of these threads for old times' sake, but these days my interest in GW is mostly a sort of schadenfreude.