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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
The DM picking summons isn't fixing RAW. It's embracing a worse version.
Here is what we did. We changed polymorph.
1. Caster can turn the target into ANY 1/2 cr creature (half the caster's level/cr or the target, which ever is lower). Polymorph cast only on the caster has no concentration requirement.
2. You use your own HP and Prof bonus.
3. An unwilling target can make another Wis save against the spell as an action.
We found that this buffed polymorph into useful while removing free HP shields, nerfing pixies, and giving a caster a reason not to just buffed allies and hide.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
I don't get why people start saying "why would you make every encounter/the whole world knows the PCs' tactic" when no one is suggesting that.
But PCs who are above level 5 are among the most talented/strongest group in the country, to say nothing about level 10+, so unless they only adventure far from any settlements, don't leave any witnesses, and don't talk about their adventures, or unless they take precautions to not be recognized, a fair share of people are going to know of the PCs, and if they use a very recognizable method several time, a decent amount of people will also know about it.
Not every enemies will prepare for it, obviously (and as it was said several times), since a decent share of enemies will not recognize the PCs or not know about them at all (ex: animals or extra-planar beings), but if your Wizard always deals with problems by spamming Fireballs at them, you can be sure that anyone who has heard of this Wizard and who has decided to take them out will have put a "find a way to deal with Fireballs" on their priority lists.
Same way that if PCs know there is a medusa in the area, they'll try any methods they can think of to avoid being turned into stones.
Why should the PCs be the only ones to have access to knowledge about their opponents?
EDIT:
Also, no, Pixies aren't too low CR. Pixies have 1 HP, no direct ways to attack, and not that great an AC. Their spells justifies their CR, no doubt, but a Pixie in an actual fight has little chances to survive pas the second round unless she's trying to escape
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
I don't get why people start saying "why would you make every encounter/the whole world knows the PCs' tactic" when no one is suggesting that.
Because it sounds like you are suggesting that. For example, the following assumption translates to me as 'the whole world, at least a huge chunk of it, (effectively) knows about the PCs tactics':
Quote:
But PCs who are above level 5 are among the most talented/strongest group in the country, to say nothing about level 10+, so unless they only adventure far from any settlements, don't leave any witnesses, and don't talk about their adventures, or unless they take precautions to not be recognized, a fair share of people are going to know of the PCs, and if they use a very recognizable method several time, a decent amount of people will also know about it.
Theres so many assumptions being contrived in here I don't even know exactly where to begin.
I guess I'll start with: yes. IMX as a general rule, PCs adventure far from any settlements & don't leave any witnesses. This seems to generally hold true in campaigns I've run, campaigns I've played in, and definitely is the general rule in official play.
Wether or not they tell tales of their adventures, they're likely to be regarded as tall tales and boasting. "... and then our sorcerer turned us all into giant man-eating lizards ..." isn't likely to be viewed as anything other than a drunken tavern tale. :smallamused:
Edit: yeah, if PCs are smart enough to research specific opponents and their weaknesses, they'll prepare appropriately. How often does that really happen? Players don't generally do that. Similarly, there's no reason to expect that generally the Pcs opponents will do it. Occasionally? Yeah sure.
I do take your point that if they literally do it every fight, they might become known as 'Team Dinosaur' or something. Like ... it's probably generally known that Hulk Smash. :smallwink:
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
But PCs who are above level 5 are among the most talented/strongest group in the country.
Going to disagree here, this depends on the world you're running.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Socratov
In regards to OP, the polymorph spell is not as good as people think: when used offensively it's a decent spell as it eliminates an opponent's capacity to act strategically, as well as take away their preferred actions (like Guinsoo's Scythe of Vice/sheepstick was in Dota), but when used to buff, well, please note that everything is replaced. only the non-game stats (being personality) are kept. In some cases that means handing control over to the DM for playing. Then there is the question of concentration: it's a feature of spellcasting (or the action of having cast a spell) and if you don't have the spellcasting feature, can you still concentrate on a spell? This is also why wildshape is awesome while polymorph is less so. As for conjure woodland beings, that has been tackled to hell and back. Also, talk to your player about your feelings. If he is dismissive about you not liking his tactics you can always nerf him during play.
there is not a shred of unclarity as to whether you can concentrate when you can't cast spells, unless you suddenly decide to invent some because polymorph is screwing your game up. there is no rule stating that only spellcasters get this mystical ability to concentrate. concentration is not a feature of spellcasting, it is merely something that sometimes happens when you cast a spell, which you can potentially do without any spellcasting feature at all. if i give you a ring of spell storing with a web in it, and you're a champion fighter, you don't sit there unable to concentrate and watch the web immediately disappear the instant after you cast it, you just concentrate, because it's just an ability everyone has. including polymorphed spellcasters, to be absolutely clear, because transmutation wizards literally get a self-only polymorph ability.
your character is your character; nothing says you lose control when you're polymorphed, so you don't. in fact, it even goes so far as to tell you that you still care about the things you care about. when a spell gives control to someone or something else, it says so. like dominate person or fear.
polymorph is completely out of whack with everything else as a combat buff, on top of being a powerful utility and debuff spell already. it doesn't need to turn level 7 PCs into something that is a decent fight for 4 level 7 PCs to be a worthwhile spell, it already has tons of value without being a straight-up improvement over a level 7 fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
EDIT:
Also, no, Pixies aren't too low CR. Pixies have 1 HP, no direct ways to attack, and not that great an AC. Their spells justifies their CR, no doubt, but a Pixie in an actual fight has little chances to survive pas the second round unless she's trying to escape
pixies have several ways to attack, 4 of which are based on spell DCs (one of which can deal damage, note that for calculating CR you assume failed saves), plus the sleep spell on top of that. their AC of 15 is 2 full points above typical for a CR 1/4 creature., plus they have flight, magic resistance, and superior invisibility, all of which increases their defensive CR. they can assume the form of any beast of their CR as well, which is another method of dealing damage available to them, as well as a substantially increased HP pool.
3 wolves will give 4 level 1 PCs a hard time (and is a hard encounter), and has some potential with bad luck to become a TPK. 3 pixies will the great majority of the time completely crush 4 level 1 PCs in the first round unless they have spectacularly bad luck, probably without the party even getting to take any actions at all, and is supposedly the same difficulty as the wolves. even 2 pixies, a supposedly "easy" encounter, has serious potential to go disastrously wrong.
in order for a level 1 party to successfully attack the pixies, they must:
1) first actually beat the stealth of the pixies. they have +7, equivalent to the best point-buy rogue possible. and they're invisible, so they can hide in the open.
2) actually win initiative against the pixies, which have a +5 (probably 2 points better than almost any starting PC's initiative bonus).
3) having noticed the pixies (which is unlikely) and won initiative (which is unlikely), they must now find a way to actually do damage - probably some form of ranged weapon, since level 1 AoE isn't exactly common, especially when we're talking about AoE paired with ability to actually notice the pixies and beat them in initiative (and even if it is available, the pixies can easily be spread out). the attack will be against AC 15 plus probably some cover, with a +5 bonus, but at disadvantage (superior invisibility). yes, they have 1 HP. but first you have to hit. if your life depends on it (and if the pixies are for some reason trying to kill you, it absolutely does), these cumulative odds that you must beat in order to avoid a TPK don't sound very reasonable.
if all of the above are not successful, the pixies can then just use their sleep spells (and even if one died, the other 2 have a fair chance of taking out the entire party with just sleep spells). one lucky roll out of the three is needed to take down 2 PCs, the other 2 rolls just need to not be absolutely awful to take down 1 PC, unless your entire party are hill dwarf barbarians with 16 con or something. in all likelihood, your party are all now asleep and at the mercy of the pixies... which can now polymorph into boars (to pick one example), and use their charge ability on one PC per turn. note that the first hit (with all attacks being at advantage; you're prone and incapacitated) will be a guaranteed crit, so odds are good you're looking at 8d6+3 damage each time they do this. or they can each turn into giant owls, pick up a PC each (grappling is a guaranteed success, you're incapacitated), fly you up into the sky, take one good whack at you for 4d6+1 damage (remember, that first hit is a critical), and then drop you as a free action for another 10d6 damage. or turn into wolf spiders for their alpha strike and paralyze you for the next hour, during which time they can kill you at their leisure. note that sleep does not require them to drop invisibility either, and they do not need to make any sounds to cast it because the only component is their own pixie dust.
now, usually, this is the point at which people start screaming about how pixies aren't going to do that. well, first of all, CR isn't a measurement of the likelihood of a monster to do something, it's a measure of their power in combat. CR doesn't give a crap about whether they're likely to attack you or not. a knight is CR 3 whether they're your childhood friend or a hated enemy. secondly, conjure woodland beings explicitly says that the pixies will obey commands, and no, it isn't reasonable to presume they need to speak the same language as you because that *exact same phrase* is used for conjure animals, which conjures things that don't speak any language at all, and conjure animals is presumed to allow you to control the animals without a speak with animals spell or similar. but even if it is, that still leaves us with either a scenario where the pixies are completely broken at CR 1/4, or a scenario where the pixies are completely useless because they'll just go around messing with people and ignoring you. neither of those scenarios are good balance.
so no, pixies should not be CR 1/4, and yes, that is relevant. now, that may almost never come up in your games, but it doesn't mean that it isn't there, and it sure as hell doesn't mean it can't possibly come up in anyone else's game.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
StoicLeaf
Going to disagree here, this depends on the world you're running.
This may be true, but the PHB & DMG sections on Tiers of play has some language to indicate that Tier 2 PCs are generally assumed to be major players within / at the 'country' (kingdoms /nations) level. See PHB 15 & DMG 37.
Interestingly the PHB puts Tier 2 as potentially kingdoms and Tier 3 as regions. DMG puts it the other way around, Tier 2 regions and Tier 3 nations. :smallconfused:
I mean, they're just general & rough guidelines. But I'm assuming that's the basis for Unoriginal's comment.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rhedyn
You either do 5e's marathon encounter slogs everyday or you're playing wrong.
No, you're playing it wrong.
And you're also the kind of guy who pops into a 5E forum to hang **** on the game.
You're that guy.
Think about that for a bit.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanarii
Edit: yeah, if PCs are smart enough to research specific opponents and their weaknesses, they'll prepare appropriately. How often does that really happen? Players don't generally do that. Similarly, there's no reason to expect that generally the Pcs opponents will do it. Occasionally? Yeah sure.
The PCs are usually a fairly small and self contained organization. The opposition is much more likely to involve many more people, and generally do more research. To use a game example, consider the 4x genre - particularly the likes of the Dominions series. There there's all sorts of weird monsters and such, and large organizations will develop specific counters to individual dangerous groups. It's not a perfect process (there's little more hilarious than when you hit a very specific counter extremely well tailored to something other than you), but it happens. The same thing happened historically all the time, albeit across a smaller range of stuff (what with the absence of magic and monsters) and somewhat more slowly until the modern era.
This also applies to RPGs, with all the same caveats. This sort of preparation among the opponents is vastly more likely when they're the ones picking the fight, extreme wrong specialization happens sometimes, and when elite strike teams (e.g. the PCs) bump up against minor enemy forces (scouts, low end raiding forced aimed at civilians) it goes really well, while it goes really poorly when elite strike teams (e.g. the PCs) have the misfortune of ending up in the same area as the really nasty threats (upper end dragons, gods, better strike teams).
Plus, from a gameplay perspective the water elemental tunnel ambush against your high mobility pyromancer stings a lot much when they also get in a fight against an enemy troll hunting squad.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
The PCs are usually a fairly small and self contained organization. The opposition is much more likely to involve many more people, and generally do more research.
And again, this comes down to the assumption that the likely many more people organization is even aware of the PC's fairly small and self-contained organization.
I mean, this is all YMMV, but my objections are: why are we either assuming this must be the case, or changing things so this must be the case? RAW doesn't prohibit fixing the problem, RAI actively supports fixing the problem, so why doesn't a DM just fix the problem? Instead you're either making assumptions about the types of campaigns that this broken combo (that doesn't need to be a broken combo) allows, or actively bending a campaign to fit the kinds it allows.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanarii
And again, this comes down to the assumption that the likely many more people organization is even aware of the PC's fairly small and self-contained organization.
I mean, this is all YMMV, but my objections are: why are we either assuming this must be the case, or changing things so this must be the case? RAW doesn't prohibit fixing the problem, RAI actively supports fixing the problem, so why doesn't a DM just fix the problem? Instead you're either making assumptions about the types of campaigns that this broken combo (that doesn't need to be a broken combo) allows, or actively bending a campaign to fit the kinds it allows.
I'm all for tweaking the rules to make them less broken, but the existence of a faction that the PCs are hostile to is hardly some major campaign premise - particularly once they're past the first few levels. Even if the campaign structure wasn't made around a central conflict the PCs are still probably going to make enemies. They're run by players after all.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
I'm all for tweaking the rules to make them less broken, but the existence of a faction that the PCs are hostile to is hardly some major campaign premise - particularly once they're past the first few levels. Even if the campaign structure wasn't made around a central conflict the PCs are still probably going to make enemies. They're run by players after all.
But the assumption that every fight and encounter, or even the vast majority of them, are against a faction hostile to the PCs that knew about them in advance enough to spend time researching them, is a very major campaign premise.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanarii
But the assumption that every fight and encounter, or even the vast majority of them, are against a faction hostile to the PCs that knew about them in advance enough to spend time researching them, is a very major campaign premise.
not just knew about them, mind you, but knew enough about them to know their current location and goals and had the resources in place to deploy their specialized anti-PC squads en masse into that area.
i mean, sure, maybe they know you've got an expert grappler, but unless they have a really good fix on your location, it just isn't plausible to assume that you exclusively encounter groups where everyone has free action pre-cast on them. that only makes sense if your enemies know that you have a grappler, and that you're in the mountain pass over there, and that you're heading for the ancient ruins in the valley below, and you should arrive at those ruins on tuesday shortly after noon, and also they have some scouts in place to watch for your arrival and signal that it's time to pre-buff, and that they also have everything they need to pull off this plan in position to get there before the PCs.
to assume that your enemies are aware that you have access to something? well, that isn't completely unreasonable, if those enemies know of your existence and consider you to be their enemy. but actually getting those resources in place every single time? that just isn't plausible.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Wow. You went full Schrodinger's Villians there. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Nobody is suggesting that they are in place every single time - particularly when the PCs are the ones picking the fight.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
Nobody is suggesting that they are in place every single time - particularly when the PCs are the ones picking the fight.
"on very rare occasions when the party screw up royally" is not going to solve a problem that comes up in almost every fight for several levels (at least, not those levels... if it was levels 1-3, it would go by pretty quickly regardless, like the moon druid spike at level 2).
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SharkForce
"on very rare occasions when the party screw up royally" is not going to solve a problem that comes up in almost every fight for several levels (at least, not those levels... if it was levels 1-3, it would go by pretty quickly regardless, like the moon druid spike at level 2).
If enemies of the PCs starting fights is somehow an incredibly rare thing that only happens in the context of extreme screwups then we're clearly looking at very different styles of game - in my experience that describes at least 3/4 of the fights in most campaigns.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanarii
But the assumption that every fight and encounter, or even the vast majority of them, are against a faction hostile to the PCs that knew about them in advance enough to spend time researching them, is a very major campaign premise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SharkForce
not just knew about them, mind you, but knew enough about them to know their current location and goals and had the resources in place to deploy their specialized anti-PC squads en masse into that area.
Impressive how some guys, because they know they have no real argument to oppose people who disagree with them on a matter, don't hesitate to go as low as blowing the adverse view out of proportion to try and make it look inept... Such an ugly sight to bear... :smallfrown:
Because, really, I read the same thread as you, and nobody here ever said every fight had to be tailored specifically for the sole purpose of making the combo irrelevant... Quite on the contrary, many people here suggested different things that range from as little as "just really play it by RAW" (being polymophred in a low mental beast has necessarily some counterparts) up to "oppose enemies with specific counters", with a whole range of graduated answers between those, and how to make them relevant and coherent in terms of world fluff. So OP really can mix any of those as he sees fit.
And 90% of the time, all those suggestions were preluded by a "speak out of game first to raise your concerns and/or ensure all players enjoyed it so far". So it's not like anyone here has been encouraging a "DM versus player" mindset either.
But it seems some people here only read what they want to read and put aside everything else. It's a bit boring at times. :)
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Imagine you're a Red Wizard of Thay. You've heard that several of your allies' smuggling warehouses have been busted by Volo, a Tielfling in plate armor, a Goliath who get in murderous rages, some kind of human spellcaster, and a Druid who can turn into a big, scaly beast.
Are you going to, you know, plan something to deal with those guys, or are you just going to think "well, I'm sure our usual security is going to work this time"?
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Unoriginal
Imagine you're a Red Wizard of Thay. You've heard that several of your allies' smuggling warehouse had been busted by Volo, a Tielfling in plate armor, a Goliath who get in murderous rages, some kind of human spellcaster, and a Druid who can turn into a big, scaly beast.
Are you going to, you know, plan something to deal with those guys, or are you just going to think "well, I'm sure our usual security is going to work"?
"Well, I'm sure our usual security is going to work..."
But that's because I'm a level 20 paranoïd Wizard (pleonasm?) that spent years making a fortress capable of holding (at least a bit) against the dreaded 6-man party of level 20 Diniver Wizards (*poke the ultimate party thread*)...
Oh, you meant, what would a Red Wizard of Thay (who is that by the way?) actually do in any credible world? :smalltongue:
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SharkForce
3 wolves will give 4 level 1 PCs a hard time (and is a hard encounter), and has some potential with bad luck to become a TPK. 3 pixies will the great majority of the time completely crush 4 level 1 PCs in the first round unless they have spectacularly bad luck, probably without the party even getting to take any actions at all, and is supposedly the same difficulty as the wolves. even 2 pixies, a supposedly "easy" encounter, has serious potential to go disastrously wrong.
Actually three pixies are a 1.5 deadly encounter for a four-men level 1 party.
50xp each, times three is 150, times 2 for the virtual exp modifier relative to the number of monsters gives 600 adjusted xp value. Same goes for wolves.
2 pixies give 100 xp, the easy threshold for four level 1 PCs.
Four level 1 PCs have a deadly encounter threshold of 400 xp.
One should not balance encounters on CR only. Experience should be the primary value to refere to, plus, one should not put a monster with a CR greater than the party's level.
Edit: you only need a sorcerer or wizard with magic missile to end the three pixies encounter. The hard part should be to get them within line of sight at the same time, but if they turn invisible they drop concentration, so it's not actually that bad.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
If enemies of the PCs starting fights is somehow an incredibly rare thing that only happens in the context of extreme screwups then we're clearly looking at very different styles of game - in my experience that describes at least 3/4 of the fights in most campaigns.
Oh wow. Okay, yeah, your experience is majorly different from almost all official play, the vast majority of published modules, along with most home campaigns I've run or played in. No wonder you're okay with the 'outlandish' assumptions. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
The PCs aren't likely to be the only ones that can do this. Competent opponents are likely to know such things can be done. It's not meta and gamist to assume a reasonable number of them will be ready for this trick, or have a trick of their own. Not every opponent, but some. There is no reason to completely shut down the trick. You just have to have a world where it can't be the only trick.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tanarii
Oh wow. Okay, yeah, your experience is majorly different from almost all official play, the vast majority of published modules, along with most home campaigns I've run or played in. No wonder you're okay with the 'outlandish' assumptions. :smallbiggrin:
This might just be my dislike of dungeon crawls coming through - when the fights tend to happen for reasons other than "they were in the dungeon" it shifts the conditions a bit, with five major categories of fight. Notably:
1) The PCs aim to directly harm an enemy, and so they go after them.
2) An enemy aims to directly harm the PCs and so they go after them or send their minions to do so.
3) The PCs are pursuing a non combat goal in opposition to some organization, and it goes south (usually this means infiltration, thievery, or really bad negotiations).
4) There's already a fight, and the PCs enter on one of the sides.
5) An enemy is pursuing a non combat goal against the PCs, and they respond with violence.
Of these type 2 is generally the single most common type of fight, followed by type 1 and type 3, followed by type 5 (mostly because a lot of type 5 schemes can't be responded to immediately and thus work out to a delayed type 1 or counter-scheming), with type 4 bringing up the rear, plus the various miscellaneous reasons.
Type 2 is extremely likely to involve anti-PC specialization after the first few times conventional forces fail horribly. Type 1 is likely to start showing anti-PC specialization after the first few strikes, but there's often softer targets where this isn't the case. Type 5 likely has anti-PC specialization as well, but geared more towards escape than anything else, and type 3 can build up anti-PC specialization if similar non-combat tactics get used heavily. Together these can work out to a decent fraction of the fights in a campaign.
Type 4 meanwhile is disproportionately likely to end up with foes specialized against somebody else having a very bad day, although it's also the most likely type to involve the PCs going up against overwhelming forces that they'd normally just run from.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Knaight
This might just be my dislike of dungeon crawls coming through - when the fights tend to happen for reasons other than "they were in the dungeon" it shifts the conditions a bit, with five major categories of fight. Notably:
1) The PCs aim to directly harm an enemy, and so they go after them.
2) An enemy aims to directly harm the PCs and so they go after them or send their minions to do so.
3) The PCs are pursuing a non combat goal in opposition to some organization, and it goes south (usually this means infiltration, thievery, or really bad negotiations).
4) There's already a fight, and the PCs enter on one of the sides.
5) An enemy is pursuing a non combat goal against the PCs, and they respond with violence.
Of these type 2 is generally the single most common type of fight, followed by type 1 and type 3, followed by type 5 (mostly because a lot of type 5 schemes can't be responded to immediately and thus work out to a delayed type 1 or counter-scheming), with type 4 bringing up the rear, plus the various miscellaneous reasons.
Type 2 is extremely likely to involve anti-PC specialization after the first few times conventional forces fail horribly. Type 1 is likely to start showing anti-PC specialization after the first few strikes, but there's often softer targets where this isn't the case. Type 5 likely has anti-PC specialization as well, but geared more towards escape than anything else, and type 3 can build up anti-PC specialization if similar non-combat tactics get used heavily. Together these can work out to a decent fraction of the fights in a campaign.
Type 4 meanwhile is disproportionately likely to end up with foes specialized against somebody else having a very bad day, although it's also the most likely type to involve the PCs going up against overwhelming forces that they'd normally just run from.
One question I have is as to worldbuilding. If countering the PCs strategies require specific builds (combinations of feats, classes, and spells), then how are the NPC organizations producing such people on demand? I've always considered that when the DM creates NPCs specifically to counter the PCs (and such would require specialized training or character building) it's a form of meta-gaming. That is, those aren't realistic NPCs (who would more naturally have a wider and less focused build). This makes the NPCs out to be clones, stamped out with whatever modifications are necessary on demand rather than living people who happen to have been sent against the party.
This is the same reason I don't like the idea that characters have this giant list of available options (feats, spells, etc) from which to choose when they increase in power. Spell-casters focus on spells that are like the ones they've focused on in the past--the guy who handles scrying for a thieves guild isn't going to go out of his way to pick up meteor swarm. NPCs with feats don't have a list of feats to choose from--they get ones that reflect their history. NPCs should be characters as well.
I can understand it if the NPC organization is huge and the PCs are considered a top-priority threat (and thus the organization can pull in specialists from afar). My world at least doesn't have these sorts of huge organizations. There are certainly active beings (Demon Princes, Gods, one particular semi-ascended dragon) who are keeping an eye on the party because of things they've done, but up until now they've not been an existential threat to any of them. They've bounced around, getting involved on the sidelines of a bunch of different plots. Most of the groups they've directly opposed they've either outgrown, destroyed completely, or made friends with later.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PhoenixPhyre
One question I have is as to worldbuilding. If countering the PCs strategies require specific builds (combinations of feats, classes, and spells), then how are the NPC organizations producing such people on demand? I've always considered that when the DM creates NPCs specifically to counter the PCs (and such would require specialized training or character building) it's a form of meta-gaming. That is, those aren't realistic NPCs (who would more naturally have a wider and less focused build). This makes the NPCs out to be clones, stamped out with whatever modifications are necessary on demand rather than living people who happen to have been sent against the party.
A lot of the time this specialization wouldn't require specific builds, at least not beyond a fairly high level overview that already makes sense in setting (e.g. archer, knight, etc.), and it comes down to equipment and tactics more than anything else. There's no need for metagaming.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citan
Just cannot go for the night without massively plussing the whole post. Especially the "growl-only" RP. Excellent idea. :)
Thank you for the compliment. :smallsmile:
I noted that a few pages ago someone asserted that polymorph (the 4th level spell) is overpowered, and I disagree. In certain situations, like an magical spell, it can be great, but ...
it costs a resource (4th level spell)
it requires concentration
A saving throw nullifies it
The forms that can be chosen are limited to beasts
In the absolute sense, polymorph is not overpowered, particularly in a game where the DM tests the party's resource management skills. (Not all games are played like this, however).
Compare this to fireball: against a semi tightly packed group of low HD creatures, fireball is very powerful. versus a red dragon? Not so much. Likewise with polymorph.
(Also, against intelligent adversaries it can be dispelled).
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lombra
Actually three pixies are a 1.5 deadly encounter for a four-men level 1 party.
50xp each, times three is 150, times 2 for the virtual exp modifier relative to the number of monsters gives 600 adjusted xp value. Same goes for wolves.
2 pixies give 100 xp, the easy threshold for four level 1 PCs.
Four level 1 PCs have a deadly encounter threshold of 400 xp.
One should not balance encounters on CR only. Experience should be the primary value to refere to, plus, one should not put a monster with a CR greater than the party's level.
Edit: you only need a sorcerer or wizard with magic missile to end the three pixies encounter. The hard part should be to get them within line of sight at the same time, but if they turn invisible they drop concentration, so it's not actually that bad.
- sleep does not require concentration. by the time they drop concentration, you're already screwed, and the wizard or sorcerer was probably the first to fall asleep.
- 2 pixies have an appallingly high chance to take down a level 1 party if they get lucky. certainly not an "almost guaranteed doom" scenario, but it really shouldn't even get anywhere near that point for an easy encounter that one or two lucky rolls means everyone's screwed. and that's assuming everyone is at full HP. if everyone is down to half HP, it doesn't even require a lot of luck.
- last i checked, 50 xp times 3 = 150, times 2 = 300. you appear to have doubled the adjusted exp budget twice accidentally.
- the whole point of CR is to help you balance encounters. now, if we're talking about some exceptional environment, then sure, you should adjust that. a fight against large snakes where you're stuck in their tunnels using the squeezing rules? okay, that deserves some adjusting. i'm not calling for some weird or unusual environment though. just a regular encounter. so if pixies don't present a fair challenge to a party in that scenario, then there's a problem with their CR.
edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KorvinStarmast
I noted that a few pages ago someone asserted that polymorph (the 4th level spell) is overpowered, and I disagree. In certain situations, like an magical spell, it can be great, but ...
it costs a resource (4th level spell)
it requires concentration
A saving throw nullifies it
The forms that can be chosen are limited to beasts
In the absolute sense, polymorph is not overpowered, particularly in a game where the DM tests the party's resource management skills. (Not all games are played like this, however).
Compare this to fireball: against a semi tightly packed group of low HD creatures, fireball is very powerful. versus a red dragon? Not so much. Likewise with polymorph.
(Also, against intelligent adversaries it can be dispelled).
- all spells cost a resource. if polymorph is ridiculously far ahead of other spells of the same level, the cost is not where it should be.
- lots of spells require concentration. they still need to be balanced. polymorph is an extremely powerful and versatile spell, beyond what is reasonable. how many other spells are extremely powerful debuffs, provide amazing utility, and also can be an exceptional combat buff, all in one?
- again, a saving throw nullifies it is nothing unusual. lots of spells require concentration and allow saving throws and cost a level 4 slot. polymorph is substantially better than all of them, especially at level 7 when you first get it and it is an insane power increase in combat.
all those drawbacks exist for other spells as well (well, not the beasts-only one, which is fairly specific, but there are plenty of useful beasts to turn into anyways so it isn't that huge of a drawback). none of those other spells are as ridiculous as polymorph. there is a heck of a lot of room to dial back polymorph before it becomes a bad spell, because right now it is so overtuned as a combat buff at those levels.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SharkForce
polymorph is ridiculously far ahead of other spells.
Nope. The use of overstatement does not fit the topic we are discussing. I suspect that you and I shall need to agree to disagree.
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SharkForce
Lots of spells require concentration. They still need to be balanced. Polymorph is an extremely powerful and versatile spell, beyond what is reasonable. How many other spells are extremely powerful debuffs, provide amazing utility, and also can be an exceptional combat buff, all in one?
Finally a constructive question, although you obviously didn't expect answer... :)
Well then...
Banishment (4th)
debuff: check (enemy cannot act).
utility: uncheck imo (well, you can certainly find creative uses, but it's hard).
buff: check (one less enemy to worry about).
Stinking Cloud (3rd)
debuff: check (enemy cannot act).
utility: check (can be used as is, to provide cover, as a distraction...)
buff: uncheck (heavily obscured area means disadvantage against people outside, but we can expect most creatures to have darkvision to some extent).
Slow (3rd)
debuff: check (limited action, lesser AC)
utility: check (used as is, to ease fleeing)
buff: check (lesser AC and DEX saves means easier to hit).
Wall of Fire (4th)
debuff: check (heavily obscured, auto-damage)
utility: check (divide a battlefield, protect from archers, set fire to enemy camp, create distraction)
buff: check (since it creates an opaque wall, you are protected from archers/casters).
Conjure Animals (3rd)
debuff: check (cast animals that can grapple/shove prone)
utility: check (scouts, mounts, check helpers, advantage givers, take your pick)
buff: check (see just above, also can serve as meat shield).
Black Tentacles (4th)
debuff: check (restrain, autodamage)
utility: check (see wall of fire mainly)
buff: check (thanks to restrain condition, preventing enemies to reach melee range
Bigby's Hand (5th)
debuff: check (restrain)
utility: check (grapple/push/creatures, lift/push/destroy large objects, lift yourself/allies over chasm/walls, limit is only your creativity -although I know it can be a problem for you ^^).
buff: check (Interposing Hand).
Telekinesis (5th)
debuff: check (restrained)
utility: check (see previous spell, uses are similar)
buff: check (pull a big object to create fullcover, keep a dangerous melee guy from ever reaching you... That is a big buff to survival here).
I think it's useless I continue, you probably got the point by now.
Many, MANY spells can be used to great effects, whether in a utility way or a combat-winning way. You don't have to consider the effects in a void, but how it impacts everything around. That's why even a simple spell such as Blindness is effectively one of the great non-concentration buff/debuff you can use at low level.
Of course, the big difference with Polymorph is that spells that affect enemies have a chance to fail. But since you included "powerful debuff" into Polymorph effect, it implies you also considered its use on enemy creature, so it makes it fair to speak of "buffs" for other spells affecting enemy creatures. To note on that aspect, with Polymorph as a buff, as powerful it may be, it only affects one ally ever. Whereas it or any other mentioned spells applied on an enemy effectively "buff" all party as a return. Conclude what you want with that. :)
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Re: My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SharkForce
- last i checked, 50 xp times 3 = 150, times 2 = 300. you appear to have doubled the adjusted exp budget twice accidentally.
And two pixies is 50 x2 X1.5 = 150 XP for difficulty.
So for a party of four (ie median sized by DMG assumptions of 2-6 player), 2 pixies is a middling Easy challenge (150 XP), and 3 pixies a Hard challenge (300 XP), and 4 pixies a Deadly challenge (400 XP).
But whatever's clever. The easiest fix that doesn't require any change to RAW, meets SA RAI, and doesn't require specially designing combo-specific-countering encounters, in order to deal with something that's roundly considered a broken combo, is for the DM to put some limits on Conjure {creature} spells where needed.
Edit: also, polymorph is definitely out of line power-wise, as a buff. If you want to house-rule it into line, a quick fix is to change it to max CR = target PC level -2.
Of course, this doesn't fix its main problem: massive temp hit point gain. Same problem Druid Wild Shape has. Really the entire 'hit points of the creature gets added on top of your current hit point' thing 5e does for these effects needs to be reconsidered. Because the way it is now isn't working very well.