Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End

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Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

And my T5 Reavers gave him so much trouble.

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Here's a random table!
...Just kidding, pick whatever you want. The random table is pointless and you're only ever going to pick from the same two every single time. Why didn't we write every option on the table to be good?

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Dude wasn't completely new, but hadn't played since 2nd edition.

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I'm not completely new. I just haven't played the game in ~20 years, and the game has undertaken x2 major overhauls (2nd-3rd, 7th-8th) since I last played.
But, AFAIC, everyone who hasn't played their first game of 8th Ed., may as well have had never played the game before. I don't care if you played 3rd-7th, 8th isn't the same game.

One of the biggest hammers to the head, is when their opponent plays Counter-Attack to interrupt their Fight phase. It works every single time.
(And yes, I have read your whole post, and I'm aware that you end up doing exactly that)

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[Orks] vs. [Imperial Fists]

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I'm going to be honest, when your list has ~100 Orks in it (and Ghazgkull), and he's a Space Marine with no Twin Assault Cannons or Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter spam, Aggressors or Inceptors. Hell, Imperial Fists? I'll even settle for Assault Centurions with Hurricane Bolters and Flamers (I really want Centurion Devastators with Heavy Bolters and Hurricane Bolters to be good, but Dev.Cents are 27 Points more expensive that Ass.Cents before weapons which makes no sense at all).

You were always going to win. Does he also know that Imperial Fists are arguably the worst Chapter in the book? And even if he wanted to play Imperial Fists, he doesn't have a single unit to use Bolter Drill on. I mean, you could SUA the Terminators, throw Bolter Drill on their Storm Bolters and go to town. But I'm guess that that's not what he did, and Sternguard can do the same thing for half the cost (including trading all of their SIBs for Storm Bolters, not that you should, but you could, especially if you knew you were playing a horde...Which is all the time, right?).
<Imperial Crimson Fists> even have a dedicated Chapter Master in Pedro Kantor.

I'm just glad that your new player didn't have to suffer the disappointment that is Captain Lysander. 'The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter', isn't.

There is a way to make Imperial Fists playable, and he didn't even do that. :smallfrown:

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So yeah, Orks are really good

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The insulting part is that they don't even have a Codex. They're like Conscripts that are harder to paint. They'd actually be real good if anybody actually bothered to paint them all and take them to a tournament.

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or from the sounds of things, melee in general.

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I know how to Melee! Here's what you do...You don't play Space Marines. :smalltongue:
(Or, failing that, if you do have to play Space Marines, play Ultramarines, and always Fall Back from it :smallwink:)

ION; Tyranid Hive Fleets

	Adaptation	Stratagem	Bio-Artefact	Warlord Trait
Behemoth	Okay	Bad	Bad	Bad
Kraken	Okay	Good	Good	Okay
Leviathan	Good	Okay	Bad	Good
Gorgon	Situational	Bad	Bad	Bad
Jormungandr	Best?	Best?	Worst	Situational / Worst
Hydra	Worst	Worst	Okay	Best?
Kronos	Good	Situational	Okay	Situational

Discuss.
IMO, Kraken's artefact is the best, but calling it 'the best' would be damning with faint praise, since the bar isn't very high, and doesn't compare to other Factions' Relics anyway.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Here's a random table!
...Just kidding, pick whatever you want. The random table is pointless and you're only ever going to pick from the same two every single time. Why didn't we write every option on the table to be good?



I'm not completely new. I just haven't played the game in ~20 years, and the game has undertaken x2 major overhauls (2nd-3rd, 7th-8th) since I last played.
But, AFAIC, everyone who hasn't played their first game of 8th Ed., may as well have had never played the game before. I don't care if you played 3rd-7th, 8th isn't the same game.

One of the biggest hammers to the head, is when their opponent plays Counter-Attack to interrupt their Fight phase. It works every single time.
(And yes, I have read your whole post, and I'm aware that you end up doing exactly that)



I'm going to be honest, when your list has ~100 Orks in it (and Ghazgkull), and he's a Space Marine with no Twin Assault Cannons or Missile Launcher/Heavy Bolter spam, Aggressors or Inceptors. Hell, Imperial Fists? I'll even settle for Assault Centurions with Hurricane Bolters and Flamers (I really want Centurion Devastators with Heavy Bolters and Hurricane Bolters to be good, but Dev.Cents are 27 Points more expensive that Ass.Cents before weapons which makes no sense at all).

You were always going to win. Does he also know that Imperial Fists are arguably the worst Chapter in the book? And even if he wanted to play Imperial Fists, he doesn't have a single unit to use Bolter Drill on. I mean, you could SUA the Terminators, throw Bolter Drill on their Storm Bolters and go to town. But I'm guess that that's not what he did, and Sternguard can do the same thing for half the cost (including trading all of their SIBs for Storm Bolters, not that you should, but you could, especially if you knew you were playing a horde...Which is all the time, right?).
<Imperial Crimson Fists> even have a dedicated Chapter Master in Pedro Kantor.

I'm just glad that your new player didn't have to suffer the disappointment that is Captain Lysander. 'The Milky Way's Best Street Fighter', isn't.

There is a way to make Imperial Fists playable, and he didn't even do that. :smallfrown:



The insulting part is that they don't even have a Codex. They're like Conscripts that are harder to paint. They'd actually be real good if anybody actually bothered to paint them all and take them to a tournament.



I know how to Melee! Here's what you do...You don't play Space Marines. :smalltongue:
(Or, failing that, if you do have to play Space Marines, play Ultramarines, and always Fall Back from it :smallwink:)

ION; Tyranid Hive Fleets

	Adaptation	Stratagem	Bio-Artefact	Warlord Trait
Behemoth	Okay	Bad	Bad	Bad
Kraken	Okay	Good	Good	Okay
Leviathan	Good	Okay	Bad	Good
Gorgon	Situational	Bad	Bad	Bad
Jormungandr	Best?	Best?	Worst	Situational / Worst
Hydra	Worst	Worst	Okay	Best?
Kronos	Good	Situational	Okay	Situational

Discuss.
IMO, Kraken's artefact is the best, but calling it 'the best' would be damning with faint praise, since the bar isn't very high, and doesn't compare to other Factions' Relics anyway.

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Hey, the table is the only reason why I have a second succubus in that list. I need to have 7 Combat Drug units so I can get the +1 T twice. :smallwink:

Yeah, there's a slight difference between never played at all and picking it up after an edition or two but that's more how many basic rules do I have to teach them.

Admittedly, I'm one of the few Ork players around. His list was meant to fight Space Wolves and Wulfen. The the other players I saw today were 2 Space Wolf players, 2 Tau players, and 1 Dark Angels.

I figured as much, but I didn't know he was a newbie til right before it started when his previous opponent took me aside and told me. I thought it would be awkward for me to say 'nevermind, let me go grab my Dark Eldar' at that point. Plus he is a fluffy guy who had his chapter of marines be Ork fighters.

He was under the impression that Bolter Drill was the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic, not a stratagem. I don't know how that mistake happened, but I just gave it to him, and didn't correct him. I'll mention it next time I see him and suggest once again that he try Raven Guard. I did recommend Ultramarines but he hates them so it's a no go.

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Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

He was under the impression that Bolter Drill was the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic, not a stratagem.

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You know what sucks? Extra attacks on a 6 To Hit, is Scions' Regiment Doctrine.
Hell, if Bolter Drill was their Chapter Tactic, you'd see me playing with them.

Hell, if he thought Bolter Drill was his Chapter Tactic...He should've maybe built around it? Even if Bolter Drill was his Chapter Tactic, I don't see any reason for him to be playing 'Fists, and he's still built his army incorrectly.

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I did recommend Ultramarines but he hates them so it's a no go.

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Ah, one of those. Did he explain why?
...Does your meta play 'What You Paint Is What You Get'? Or could he be like me, with yellow Ultramarines?

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

You know what sucks? Extra attacks on a 6 To Hit, is Scions' Regiment Doctrine.
Hell, if Bolter Drill was their Chapter Tactic, you'd see me playing with them.

Hell, if he thought Bolter Drill was his Chapter Tactic...He should've maybe built around it? Even if Bolter Drill was his Chapter Tactic, I don't see any reason for him to be playing 'Fists, and he's still built his army incorrectly.



Ah, one of those. Did he explain why?
...Does your meta play 'What You Paint Is What You Get'? Or could he be like me, with yellow Ultramarines?

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Yeah, it honestly would've worked well as their chapter tactic.

Yes, he should have built around it, but he was too focus'd on grabbing as much plasma as possible. Also he isn't that great of a player. Well, he's basically new, so he's got some learning to do. I do know the store employee took the opportunity to try and sell him on Aggressors and Inceptors. I suggested he look at a Stormraven.


No, he just made the face. I'm sure you can guess which one. :smallwink:

His models weren't painted at all, so yeah, it's more like your meta. Ours is actually much looser, in that squads just have to be the right type, you don't need to model the correct equipment either.


On a different note, I've got a 'serious' tournament coming up in February. It's actually supposed to be competitive since it's not running out of my store, so I'm looking to build a mean list.

Spoiler: 1750 Eldar

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Battalion Detachment (Alaitoc)
HQ
Avatar: 250
Farseer with Shiftshoud of Alanssair: 100
Warlock: 35

Troops
5 Rangers: 60
5 Rangers: 60
10 Guardians: 90

Elites
5 Wraithguard with wraithcannons: 200

Heavy Support:
1 Fire Prism with Shurikan Cannon: 165
1 Fire Prism with Shurikan Cannon: 165
5 Dark Reapers with Exarch with Tempest Launcher: 140


Outrider Detachment (Saim-Hann)
HQ
Warlock: 35
Warlock: 35

Fast Attack
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 157
5 Shining Spears with Exarch with Star Lance: 157
5 Warp Spiders with Exarch with 2 Deathspinners: 98

Total: 1747

Any thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

Succubus with Blast Pistol and Agonizer

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That's an illegal set up. The succubus only gets to swap her splinter pistol for 1 thing, she can't swap the glaive for anything. God Vect knows she would if she could.

Interesting to see how 18 Reavers plays out. I have approximately 1 billion of the things I've gotten for free when purchasing other models second hand, they're just too expensive to be worth it most of the time.

Played my third game of 40k recently.

Here is something like a bat-rep.

My list Ad Mech, 1500

Spoiler

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Battalion, Stygies VII

HQ
Tech Priest Dominatus
Enginseer

Elites
Sicarian Infiltrators w/ tasers

Troops
Kataphron Destroyers w/ Heavy Grav
2x 10 Vanguard w/ 2 Plasma, 1 Arc
5 Rangers w/ Transuranic Arquebus

Heavy Support
Kastellan Robots w/ 3 Heavy Phosphor Blaster each
2 Onager w/ Icarus Array

Fast Attack
3 Sydonian Dragoons w/ Taser Lance

Against White Scars
He had something like:

Spoiler

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a Khan
an Apothecary
three big-ish units of bikers (with claws, I think)
2 units of marines with rocket launchers
Storm Raven with assault cannon and las cannon

Chain of events was roughly this:

He used a strategem to get first turn charge against my sniper rangers with one of his big biker units, and advanced with other units.
The rocket launchers and stormraven shot but didn't do much. He didn't wipe out the rangers.

One my turn, the onagers brought the storm raven down to about half wounds or so. The kataphrons nearly wiped a unit of bikers (elimination volley strategem was used).
The infiltrators showed up and wiped out a unit of rocket launchers. I was worried all those S3 AP 0 attacks would just bounce off marine equivalents, but they worked out okay.

Turn 2
He charged the kataphrons, one of the dune-crawlers, and a vanguard unit. Kataphrons prove to be stubbornly durable

I brought the storm raven down to two or three wounds with some more icarus shooting. The only other notable thing to happen was the charge of the dragoons. Tremendous. They really tore up those bikes and saved the last vanguard unit.

From here out it gets foggy. I used 2CP on a strategem to change canticles and do the electro shock thing. It dealt 2 MW to the apothecary, but was mostly for fun. The last kataphron went down to one wound and would not die. One onager was killed and I used the strategem to ensure it exploded, which paid of excellently. I charged again with the dragoons, this time with the +1/+2 to fight rolls strategem and it was even more brutal. My tech priest fought the khan, taking more wounds than he dealt out, but it was okay because he healed them.

At this point my opponent had <10 models on the board so we decided to pack it up.


Stars:
-Sydonian dragoons - These things are beastly for their points. They shouldn't have so many wounds, or they should cost more. I've thought about using the snipers, but that would make them less mobile and after seeing how they performed in assault, I'm less curious. I kind of want to get more of these and do some conversions with some Dust models, but they are expensive.
-Kataphron destroyers - Heavy grav cannons were well effective. They did fire once, and then die, but it was so worth it
-Infiltrators - SUA is neat. I should have taken advantage of the Stygies strategem that can do that. Seems great for pushing stuff off objectives

Dogs:
-Onagers with Icarus - Icarus arrays were surprisingly in-effectual. Or maybe storm-ravens are just crazy durable. Unfortunately, the other weapon options seem worse.
-Kastellans with all Phosphor - They didn't do much at all. OTOH, they didn't die, at all. I did run them without the data-smith (who was proxying as the engineseer for force org reasons), so no changing of protocols. Maybe the double-shooty protocol would have produced results?
-Omnispex - Cover didn't matter, but maybe it would with over armies. However, I've got enough phosphor to negate it. The synergy with data-tethers and that one strategem seems pretty worthwhile.

Main lesson learned: This isn't Infinity, cover doesn't work like that. Deploy accordingly.


Next question: What's the right way to do a Knight? I need to get up to 2k points, and I've got one half built.
I am untrusting of any weapons that need die rolls for number of shots, but I'd like to hear more informed opinions.

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Originally Posted by Science Officer

Next question: What's the right way to do a Knight? I need to get up to 2k points, and I've got one half built.

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First up, Renegade Knights are better. But...Since that's not actually helpful...

The Avenger Cannon is 'pretty good' against everything. Against massed Infantry, it always has 12 shots. Against Vehicles, it's the magic S5+, with AP-2 and D2. Solid.
The Thermal Cannon is great for killing Vehicles - as it should be. But, the Melee weapons also do that, and pretty much twice as good, to boot.
Speaking of boots, you don't even really need Melee weapons on a Knight, 'cause the Feet already do most of the work, and are free.

So, the question I need to ask is, big kit, or little kit?

The little kit makes Errants or Paladins only...

A Knight Errant is is cheap (...but not as cheap as the Gallant, but Gallants suck...) and will make paste out of Vehicles, both Shooting and Melee. Against Infantry, in Melee, he'll always have feet. Knights Errant are good. If you've got the points though, there really isn't a good reason to not run the Warden...

The big kit allows you make any Knight you want.

The Knight Warden comes with the Avenger, which we've already established that you'll never not have a use for it. It's still got that dumb Chainsword you don't need, 'cause Feet...
The Knight Crusader, is your most expensive Knight. But, corresponding to that, he's also the Knight that you'll get the most use out of. He has no superfluous Melee weapons (Feet are free), and, since it's a Super-Heavy, it can Fall Back and Shoot in the same turn anyway. It should only ever be in Melee if you want it to be.

(A Renegade Knight can have double Gatlings...)

All the other weapons - carapace/shoulder - are situational at best, and the only reason to take them is if you desperately need them. I treat Knights like every other Super-Heavy I own. The 'extra' weapons all pale in comparison to the primary weapons, so my inclination is to not have them at all. But, since Heavy Stubbers are mandatory, at least they're cheap.

PROTIP to not get DQ'd: Remember that Gatlings come with Heavy Flamers. Yes, you do have to pay for them. Yes, even if you're like me and think they're pointless...'Cause they're not pointless...They actually cost points, and they're not optional...Even if you never use them.

Thanks for the quick (and informative) reply.
I have the big kit. So I'll go for something with the avenger that fits my points.
The carapace weapons did look pretty superfluous. The one that can fire without LoS looked fun, but not really useful.

New FAQs for chaos. Can be summarised as shuffling the Daemon keyword so that you can't use daemon stratagems on things outside the daemon codex.

Oh, and giving Horrors an entirely new datasheet.

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Originally Posted by Tome

New FAQs for chaos. Can be summarised as shuffling the Daemon keyword so that you can't use daemon stratagems on things outside the daemon codex.

Oh, and giving Horrors an entirely new datasheet.

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*pokes head in* Oh really? *looks at FAQ* Am i just blind or has it not come out yet?

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Originally Posted by Blackhawk748

*pokes head in* Oh really? *looks at FAQ* Am i just blind or has it not come out yet?

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Looks like its there

Edit, nvm, misunderstood you.

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Originally Posted by Brookshw

Looks like its there

Edit, nvm, misunderstood you.

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Oh ya, sorry, i meant the Horror sheet, cuz id like them to not suck.

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Originally Posted by Blackhawk748

Oh ya, sorry, i meant the Horror sheet, cuz id like them to not suck.

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Check the last page of the CSM faq. It might just be updating them to match the codex daemons version, if their rules changed in that.

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Originally Posted by Tome

Check the last page of the CSM faq. It might just be updating them to match the codex daemons version, if their rules changed in that.

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*looks at sheet* Ya, pretty sure thats what they always were this ed...so they suck.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

ION; Tyranid Hive Fleets

	Adaptation	Stratagem	Bio-Artefact	Warlord Trait
Behemoth	Okay	Bad	Bad	Bad
Kraken	Okay	Good	Good	Okay
Leviathan	Good	Okay	Bad	Good
Gorgon	Situational	Bad	Bad	Bad
Jormungandr	Best?	Best?	Worst	Situational / Worst
Hydra	Worst	Worst	Okay	Best?
Kronos	Good	Situational	Okay	Situational

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Reposting.
Anyone have any comments, or am I on the money?

ION;
Not only did Be'lakor lose Warptime, but now he actively makes your army worse.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Reposting.
Anyone have any comments, or am I on the money?

ION;
Not only did Be'lakor lose Warptime, but now he actively makes your army worse.

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How so? I'm curious on that.

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Originally Posted by JNAProductions

How so? I'm curious on that.

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As 'Undivided', he screws up your Daemonic Loci.

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Q: If I include Be’lakor in a Detachment in which every other
unit owes its allegiance to the same Chaos God, does that
Detachment benefit from the Daemonic Loci ability?
A: No, as Be’lakor does not owe allegiance to any one
Chaos God.

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Remember when GW was like "Oh, Cypher and Fabius Bile would make your army suck, better include a rule. Oh, Auxilia units might make a Guard army worse, better include a rule." :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

As 'Undivided', he screws up your Daemonic Loci.

Remember when GW was like "Oh, Cypher and Fabius Bile would make your army suck, better include a rule. Oh, Auxilia units might make a Guard army worse, better include a rule." :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by Drasius

Chaos Can't Have Nice Things

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CCHNT was a thing for many a year, why break with tradition completely?

Think of it this way-he costs 30 points more and comes with 10 brimestone horrors attached via patrol, and does not fill up your other detachment requirement. (or any other chaos superfaction troop you want and it's appropriate cost)



Honestly, CCHNT is not really active at the moment. chaos has some VERY nice things.
IoM has more things, but generally speaking chaos has the fancier stuff as it seems.

Tournament this weekend. It's as I hoped/feared; we're set to absolutely fill the store with players from hundreds of miles around because of the ITC season opening. Missions:

Spoiler: No Man's Land

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No Man’s Land
Several key objectives have been located in no man's land. Secure a forward command post and seize the spoils from the enemy.


The Armies
Each player fields the 1500 point army submitted to the tournament organizer.

The Battlefield
Use the pre-set terrain on the table for this mission.

Deployment
Use the Dawn of War deployment type (pg 216) for this mission. The players roll off – whoever rolls highest picks one of the deployment zones on the map for their army. The opposing player uses the other deployment zone.

Starting with the player who chose their deployment zone, the players take it in turns to place 6 Objective Markers that are individually numbered 1 through 6 on the battlefield, using the rules for Using Tactical Objectives (pg 226) with the addition that the first Objective Marker each player places (markers 1 and 2, respectively) must be in his or her own deployment zone.

The players then alternate deploying their units, one at a time, starting with the player who did not pick their deployment zone. A player’s models must be set up within their own deployment zone. Continue setting up units until both sides have set up their armies.

First Turn
When both players finish deploying, they roll off. The player that finished deploying first gains a +1 to this roll. The winner of this roll can choose to take the first or second turn. If the winner of this roll off decides to take the first turn, their opponent can roll a die; on a roll of 6, they manage to seize the initiative, and they get the first turn instead!

Tactical Objectives
This mission uses tactical objectives (pg 226). If, at the start of a player’s turn, they have fewer than 3 active Tactical Objectives, they must generate Tactical Objectives until they have 3.

Battle Length
The mission will last for 6 turns or the end of the full game turn that time expiration falls upon, whichever comes first.

Victory Conditions
At the end of the game the player who has scored the most Victory Points is the winner. If both players have the same number of Victory Points, the game is a draw. In addition to achieving Tactical Objectives, victory points are achieved by the following:

Take and Hold: At the end of the game, objective markers 1 and 2 are each worth 3 victory points to the player who controls them in addition to any Tactical Objectives they may be worth.

Slay the Warlord: If the enemy Warlord has been slain during the battle, you score 1 victory point.

First Blood: The first unit, of any kind, to be destroyed during the battle is worth 1 victory point to the opposing player at the end of the game. If two or more units from opposing forces are destroyed simultaneously, then both players get 1 victory point.

Linebreaker: If, at the end of the battle, you have at least one model within the enemy’s deployment zone, you score 1 victory point.

This one should be familiar; I've used it before and posted it here for critique before, but I include it for completion's sake.

Spoiler: Take and Hold

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We must secure a landing zone close to the front for our heavy landers. Seize the area and hold it until relieved.

The Armies
Each player fields the 1500 point army submitted to the tournament organizer.

The Battlefield
Use the pre-set terrain on the table for this mission.

Deployment
Use the Hammer and Anvil deployment type (pg 217) for this mission. The players roll off – whoever rolls highest picks one of the deployment zones on the map for their army. The opposing player uses the other deployment zone.

Place 5 objective markers, one in the center of the board, one each 18” from each short table edge and 24” from each long table edge, and one 12” from each long table edge and 36” from each short table edge.

The players then alternate deploying their units, one at a time, starting with the player who did not pick their deployment zone. A player’s models must be set up within their own deployment zone. Continue setting up units until both sides have set up their armies.

First Turn
When both players finish deploying, they roll off. The player that finished deploying first gains a +1 to this roll. The winner of this roll can choose to take the first or second turn. If the winner of this roll off decides to take the first turn, their opponent can roll a die; on a roll of 6, they manage to seize the initiative, and they get the first turn instead!


Battle Length
The mission will last for 6 turns or the end of the full game turn that time expiration falls upon, whichever comes first.
Victory Conditions
At the end of the game the player who has scored the most Victory Points is the winner. If both players have the same number of Victory Points, the game is a draw. Victory points are achieved for the following:

Area Control: Each objective is worth one Victory Point to the player who holds it at the end of each player turn, with the exception of the objectives in the deployment zones, which are worth two Victory Points at the end of every turn if held by the player whose deployment zone they are not in.

Slay the Warlord: If the enemy Warlord has been slain during the battle, you score 1 victory point.

First Blood: The first unit, of any kind, to be destroyed during the battle is worth 1 victory point to the opposing player at the end of the game. If two or more units from opposing forces are destroyed simultaneously, then both players get 1 victory point.

Linebreaker: If, at the end of the battle, you have at least one model within the enemy’s deployment zone, you score 1 victory point.

Same story; used it before, posted here before. The way the objective setup is described means that the objectives are in a cross, one in the center point and one halfway between the center point and each table edge along the shortest line. This means exactly one objective will be in each deployment zone in Hammer and Anvil deployment.

Spoiler: Dominate and Destroy

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Sometimes it is not enough simply to defeat your enemy. Rather, you must humble them utterly, seizing control of the battlefield as though it is yours by right and smashing any foe foolish enough to challenge your claim.

The Armies
Each player fields the 1500 point army submitted to the tournament organizer.

The Battlefield
Use the pre-set terrain on the table for this mission. Place six objective markers as follows: The players roll off and, starting with the winner, the players alternate placing these objective markers until all six have been set up. The objective markers can be placed anywhere on the battlefield, as long as the center of each is more than 12” from the center of any other objective marker and more than 6” from the edge of the battlefield.

Deployment
Use the Search and Destroy deployment type (pg 216) for this mission. The player who placed the sixth objective marker picks one of the deployment zones for their army. Their opponent uses the other deployment zone.

The players alternate deploying their units, one at a time, starting with the player who did not pick their deployment zone. A player’s models must be set up wholly within their own deployment zone. Continue setting up units until both sides have set up their armies.

First Turn
The players roll off, and the player who finished setting up their army first adds 1 to the result. The winner can choose to take the first or second turn. If they take the first turn, their opponent can roll a D6; on a roll of 6, they manage to seize the initiative, and they get the first turn instead!

Battle Length
The mission will last for 6 turns or the end of the full game turn that time expiration falls upon, whichever comes first.

Victory Conditions
At the end of the game the player who has scored the most Victory Points is the winner. If both players have the same number of Victory Points, the game is a draw. In addition to achieving Tactical Objectives, victory points are achieved by the following:

Dominate the Battlefield: Each player scores 1 victory point at the end of each of their turns for each objective marker they control. A player controls an objective marker if they have more models within 3” of the center of it than their opponent does.

No Quarter Given: Each player scores 1 victory point for each enemy unit that is destroyed.

Slay the Warlord: If the enemy Warlord has been slain during the battle, you score 1 victory point. This is in addition to the 1 victory point you score for each destroyed enemy unit.

First Blood: The first unit, of any kind, to be destroyed during the battle is worth 1 victory point to the opposing player at the end of the game. If two or more units from opposing forces are destroyed simultaneously, then both players get 1 victory point.

Linebreaker: If, at the end of the battle, you have at least one model within the enemy’s deployment zone, you score 1 victory point.

And this is lifted straight out of Chapter Approved. I don't really like kill point missions, but they're traditional; at least this way there's a way for high unit count armies to make up the score.

Anyway, if anyone's got any ideas, I'm all ears. I've got people making five hour drives for this thing, so I'd like to give them a good time. :smallsmile: My design principle is that every turn should matter, including the last one, but Maelstrom every time all the time gets tedious. Feel free to use the missions I designed myself (obviously my permission isn't remotely required for the Chapter Approved one) as you like.

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Originally Posted by boomwolf

Honestly, CCHNT is not really active at the moment. chaos has some VERY nice things.
IoM has more things, but generally speaking chaos has the fancier stuff as it seems.

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For now.

See, it is a cycle. First in warhammer fantasy the Empire had humies and glorious chaos had humies and uber chaos warriors with heavy armor and 4s accross the board.

Then 40k came and suddenly the space Empire had heavy armor dudes with 4s accross the board too.

Chaos marines have daemon princes? GK eventually get dreadknights!
Chaos marines have daemonic mounts? Space furries eventually get giant wolf mounts!
Chaos marines have possessed? Space furries eventually get wulven.
Chaos marines have daemonic weapons? Loyalist scum eventually gets blessed (but not religious of course) weapons and straight out can use daemonic weapons too no problem, and with bigger variety.
Chaos marines have 5 marks of the chaos gods? Loyalist scum eventually get dozens of chapter tactics, again more and cheaper.
Chaos marines have cultists? Sphech merines eventually can cherry pick anything from the whole imperial guard range.
Chaos marines have sorcerers with ML 3? Sphech merines get a cheap artifact that allows them to make their librarians ML 3 too.
Chaos marines get glorious Magnus, the true traitor that ruined the emprah's master plan? Loyalist scum get Rowboat the ultimate spiritual liege and unlike Magnus, all of the IoM are willing to play nice with him.

So basically chaos gets cool things (even if not that efficient), but then loyalist scum justs get more/better/cheaper versions.

But I agree in 8th edition chaos marines seem to have succeeded to keep some very nice things that loyalist scum can't (yet) just do cheaper/better.

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Originally Posted by Drasius

CCHNT was a thing for many a year, why break with tradition completely?

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On balance - and as seen by tournament results - Chaos has a few, very nice things.
The Imperium has a lot more things, but they aren't quite as good.

First, we have to wait for Thousand Sons to come out Magnus to get nerfed into the ground.
Then we'll wait and see for how Errata / Chapter Approved can ruin Daemons.

Renegade Knights with double Gatlings, and Cypher-as-Warlord-doesn't-ruin-Legions however, are apparently around to stay.

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Originally Posted by boomwolf

Honestly, CCHNT is not really active at the moment. chaos has some VERY nice things.
IoM has more things, but generally speaking chaos has the fancier stuff as it seems.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

On balance - and as seen by tournament results - Chaos has a few, very nice things.
The Imperium has a lot more things, but they aren't quite as good.

First, we have to wait for Thousand Sons to come out Magnus to get nerfed into the ground.
Then we'll wait and see for how Errata / Chapter Approved can ruin Daemons.

Renegade Knights with double Gatlings, and Cypher-as-Warlord-doesn't-ruin-Legions however, are apparently around to stay.

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It's like neither of you actually read my post at all. I said CCHNT was a thing previously and that they shouldn't break with tradition completely - ie, they have broken the curse so far and given us some nice toys, but it's expected that it's not to stay (or possibly even intentional) and a return to getting nothing but crap is not unexpected.

From the rumours I've seen from the Sons dex, it looks like they'll be better than they were, but still aren't going to be the new meta hotness. That'd be a good outcome as far as I'm concerned.

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Originally Posted by Renegade Paladin

-[Interesting Missions]-
Anyway, if anyone's got any ideas, I'm all ears.

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Neat! Those all look pretty fun to play. The only thing I'm not sold on is the return of Seize The Initiative. With the normal roll-off it's only a 2/3 chance for the player who finished first to get the choice, adding another multiplicative roll reduces that down to 5/9, barely over 50%.

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Battle Length
The mission will last for 6 turns or the end of the full game turn that time expiration falls upon, whichever comes first.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but a "turn" is now explicitly only one player's actions - there's no such thing as a "game turn" any more. Those have been replaced by "Battle Rounds" or something.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

ION; Tyranid Hive Fleets

	Adaptation	Stratagem	Bio-Artefact	Warlord Trait
Behemoth	Okay	Bad	Bad	Bad
Kraken	Okay	Good	Good	Okay
Leviathan	Good	Okay	Bad	Good
Gorgon	Situational	Bad	Bad	Bad
Jormungandr	Best?	Best?	Worst	Situational / Worst
Hydra	Worst	Worst	Okay	Best?
Kronos	Good	Situational	Okay	Situational

Discuss.
IMO, Kraken's artefact is the best, but calling it 'the best' would be damning with faint praise, since the bar isn't very high, and doesn't compare to other Factions' Relics anyway.

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For Adaptations I rate them: Jormungdar>Kronos>Gorgon==Levi>Behemoth>Kraken>Hyd ra

With how melee orientated Nids are, I don't see how reroll 1's to wound is in anyway not amazing.

For Stratagems I rate them: Jormungdar==Kronos>Kraken>Levi>Behemoth>Gorgon>>Hy dra

The ability to go 'lol no' to a psyker, after they declared their test can range from good to absolutely amazing. Add in the Kronos Warlord trait and you can just ruin a Psyker's day. And with how good psykers can be, a strong defense is very valuable. Hydra's trait is worse then useless since you have to pay for the respawning unit.

No argument about the artifacts.

I think I'd place Levi's warlord trait above Hydra, but they are both good. I'd put Kraken at good, as with Kronos.

Really, all of the factions for Tyranids are decent though. I think I'd put Jormungdar and Kronos as the best, with Behemoth and Hydra as the worst.

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Originally Posted by Voidhawk

Neat! Those all look pretty fun to play. The only thing I'm not sold on is the return of Seize The Initiative. With the normal roll-off it's only a 2/3 chance for the player who finished first to get the choice, adding another multiplicative roll reduces that down to 5/9, barely over 50%.

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I agree, but that's in Chapter Approved as well.

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Originally Posted by Voidhawk

Neat! Those all look pretty fun to play. The only thing I'm not sold on is the return of Seize The Initiative.

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What? Seize the Initiative is plastered in Rulebook Missions. What do you mean 'return of', it's always been a part of 8th Ed., and didn't go away in Chapter Approved, either.
So...You just don't like StI? Is that what you're saying?

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Originally Posted by LeSwordfish

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a "turn" is now explicitly only one player's actions - there's no such thing as a "game turn" any more. Those have been replaced by "Battle Rounds" or something.

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Correct. GW finally got around to properly differentiating between 'player turn' and 'game turn'.
Battle Rounds and Turns are very well defined.

What is poorly defined, is that some Maelstrom Objectives say 'your turn', whilst others say 'this turn', so you can actually achieve Objectives in your opponents' turns, but only if you read certain cards very, very closely.

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Originally Posted by Forum Explorer

With how melee orientated Nids are

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...What 'Nids are you playing? I haven't seen Melee 'Nids - with the singular exception of Carnifexes - since 8th started. And, with the two best Traits being 'Don't Advance/Charge', and the other being 'Don't Move', has only reinforced that notion, excluding pocket Patrols of <Kraken> Genestealers... Not that <Kraken> is good, mind. Only Genestealers are good, when they are Kraken.

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The ability to go 'lol no' to a psyker, after they declared their test can range from good to absolutely amazing.

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What if your opponent doesn't have Psykers? What if your opponent has two Psykers with which to cast the same Power? All's you're doing is reducing your opponent's redundancy. If your opponent has one Psyker, with one good Power. Yeah, sure. It's amazing. But, in my experience, if your opponent has brought one Psyker, they've brought a lot of Psykers, or, their Psyker is brought purely for Deny purposes, and whether or not they cast a Power per turn is most irrelevant to their battle plan...So, knowing that you're Kronos, they just wont even try. Or, maybe they'll pull off a Smite anyway.

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Add in the Kronos Warlord trait and you can just ruin a Psyker's day. And with how good psykers can be, a strong defense is very valuable.

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Agreed. But in my experience, Tyranids should do that using Neurothropes or Zoanthropes, and not using your Command Points.
I agree that simply shutting down one of your opponent's Powers can be strong - especially if you also give up your Warlord Trait. But, even if you were <Kronus>, and not running Swarmlord, I still don't see how you could go past an Infantry Character with Synaptic Lynchpin, or possibly a Dakka-Tyrant with Instinctive Killer.

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I think I'd place Levi's warlord trait above Hydra, but they are both good.

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I think what seals it for me, is that Hydra rolls a dice for each Wound lost, potentially allowing the regeneration of several Wounds per turn. Which is pretty useful. But, that's only useful for a Hive Tyrant, I guess...Yeah, you're right.

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I'd put Kraken at good, as with Kronos.

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With both of them, I can't see writing either of them down on my army list.
If I knew, specifically, who my opponent was going to be, then yes. I'd consider Kronous' a lot. But, that's now how it works.

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Really, all of the factions for Tyranids are decent though.

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Definitely incorrect, and I strongly disagree. I believe every Hive Fleet has a gimmick, which is good for a pocket Patrol, or a min-maxed Detachment of whatever your slot of choice is. Maybe it's a question of semantics. I'm aware that...

Lucius, Patrol
Tech-Preist Dominus
Rangers (x5)
Corpuscarii Electro-Preists (xLots)

...Is a thing that exists, and has a use against armies without Codecies, or, rather more specifically, against armies that don't have an SUA interrupt. And it doesn't really do anything against hordes with a 5+ or 6+ Save anyway, and especially if said horde-type unit has a FNP save. But, just cause the Forge World has a gimmick, especially a gimmick that doesn't even work against everyone, I'm never going to admit that Lucius is good FW. Because it just isn't true.
Unfortunately, because of the above Detachment, it does have a use, and some people have really low standards, such that 'usable, sometimes' is the same as 'good'.

Just because Kraken Genestealers can potentially break the game against some opponents, doesn't make Kraken good.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

Reposting.
Anyone have any comments, or am I on the money?

ION;
Not only did Be'lakor lose Warptime, but now he actively makes your army worse.

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I might bump up the kraken adaptation, admittedly it is situatiinally good, but it's not exactly an uncommon situation when it's good. Behemoth stratagem to situational from bad. Leviathan strat to bad, requires too much set up. Jorgem strat isn't that good, you don't want it w/ mawloks (not sure you want mawloks to begin with) trygon's already do it so it's either duplicative or your fighting yourself for space to set up an additional unit, leaving raveners who don't have synapse so you need to bring something else to the fore.

You're on the money for warlord traits.

Re artifacts, leviathan's can be used to make a poor man's swarmlord w/o having to actually take one, it's not great but I have seen some discussion on the Tyranid Hive board with some support of them, maybe call it okay? Otherwise looks good.

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Originally Posted by Brookshw

Re artifacts, leviathan's can be used to make a poor man's swarmlord w/o having to actually take one...

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As I'm about to write in my Tyranid Guide...

The Swarmlord: It's a 'Tyranid Roboute Guilliman'! ...If Guilliman could be targeted in the Shooting phase, degraded with Wounds, and his weapons weren't as good. Still, Swarmlord is 85 Points cheaper than Guilliman so that's something...But then Tyrant Guard are going to cost you ~115 Points or so, because you will take Tyrant Guard when you take Swarmlord. So, in actual fact, Swarmlord is 50 Points more expensive than Guilliman, but, with dice rolling averages, Swarmlord should have like 20 Wounds. His Warlord Trait is basically useless, since you can't re-set up his Tyrant Guard with him.
Swarmlord can pick a unit in the Shooting phase to Move again. That's his ability. Use it.

If you're going to take Swarmlord, then take Swarmlord.

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it's not great but I have seen some discussion on the Tyranid Hive board with some support of them, maybe call it okay?

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So, it deals 3 Damage a Wound. On a good day, let's say that you deal 2 Wounds, causing 6 Damage. The number of Infantry and Biker models that aren't already dead - that I can think of - I can count on one hand...And all of them are just variations on the same thing; Space Marine Chapter Masters. The elephant in the room, of course, is that a Hive Tyrant with 5+(5*.17) attacks isn't going to deal 2 Wounds to a Space Marine Chapter Master. In fact, you're probably only going to do 1, if not less - 0. Especially when your opponent starts dropping Command Re-rolls to make sure that their Warlord doesn't die.

Meanwhile, the Reaper of Obliterax, is a base Artefact. And doesn't require that your opponent is <Infantry> or <Biker> only. And pairs amazingly when used with Voracious Appetite.

Where Slayer Sabres wouldn't suck, is on a Tyranid Prime, where doing a Wound or two wont insta-gib the model you're Fighting anyway. Unfortunately, Slayer Sabres are Monsters only, and thus have no use that regualar Boneswords don't do, and thus are a waste of your Artefact slot. Unless you're fighting Marneus Calgar, who only takes half Damage from attacks, so, after 4 Damage, he'd still only have 3 Wounds left, giving you a half-decent shot at cutting his head off.
So, are you Leviathan, and are you fighting Ultramarines, and do they specifically have Marneus Calgar in their list?

Also, whilst looking up rules for Tyranids for writing my Guide;
How come a model with two pairs of Boneswords only gets +1 Attack (and thus, double Boneswords is useless, that's what Swarmlord is for), whilst a model with two Chainswords, gets +2 Attacks?
...Well, by rights, a model with two pairs of Boneswords should get +2 Attacks. Unfortunately, GW has made an executive decision, and decided that Boneswords and Chainswords are not equatable. Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Cheesegear

If you're going to take Swarmlord, then you're doing it wrong

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FTFW

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So, it deals 3 Damage a Wound. On a good day, let's say that you deal 2 Wounds, causing 6 Damage. The number of Infantry and Biker models that aren't already dead - that I can think of - I can count on one hand...And all of them are just variations on the same thing; Space Marine Chapter Masters. The elephant in the room, of course, is that a Hive Tyrant with 5+(5*.17) attacks isn't going to deal 2 Wounds to a Space Marine Chapter Master. In fact, you're probably only going to do 1, if not less - 0. Especially when your opponent starts dropping Command Re-rolls to make sure that their Warlord doesn't die.

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I'm not going to defend it, only point out that a non-negligible number of people in a forum dedicated to Nids specifically have seen some value to it, iirc the benefit came from digging into all the additional +1 damage options for it. Call it what you will.

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How come a model with two pairs of Boneswords only gets +1 Attack (and thus, double Boneswords is useless, that's what Swarmlord is for), whilst a model with two Chainswords, gets +2 Attacks?
...Well, by rights, a model with two pairs of Boneswords should get +2 Attacks. Unfortunately, GW has made an executive decision, and decided that Boneswords and Chainswords are not equatable. Fair enough.

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Yup, welcome to Nid griping 101.

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What 'Nids are you playing? I haven't seen Melee 'Nids - with the singular exception of Carnifexes - since 8th started

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What Nids are you playing against? :smallconfused: Melee's terrific now and with the codex (hell, even just the index) it's easy to make melee focused armies that hold up very well on the table. Heck, melee focused armies are the ONLY reason to even consider taking a Swarmlord (though since the codex that's no longer true).