So because they already exist, they don't count?
It still doesn't address that the only people it matters for are Skywalkers.
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I'm certain that there were some people who were simply disappointed that Rey doesn't have a famous lineage for no good reason, but there are real problems with Rey's parentage regardless of that.
Spoiler
The reality isn't that Rey's parent's were random nobodies - they were in fact actually horrible people. They, and I'll quote Kylo directly "sold you off for drinking money." This does not match with who Rey is. If you believe ethics are all nurture, then Rey's character makes no sense, and it didn't in TFA either. However, until we knew who her parents were you could justify her ethics in terms of nature (not unrealistic actually there's research to suggest that altruism and similar impulses are at least partially heritable).
There's also the problem that Rey is chosen by the Force, and the Force has a will. Why did the Force choose someone seemingly at random? That's stupid. If you're going to empower someone, you undertake a careful search - like was done in the first Captain America film - to find someone who fits your criteria for the task. That movie spent a lot of time establishing who Steve Rodgers was and why he deserved to be the first super soldier. Neither TFA or TLJ has done any work to justify why the Force chose Rey. If she'd had famous parents or even just legitimately good parents (Luke Skywalker managed to have both and a surrogate parental mentor) that would have been a reason. Instead there's just a gaping hole.
The OT involved a farmboy saving the galaxy - with farmboy as a specific proxy for a certain set of values that the audience was expected to identify with (Timothy Zahn in the expanded universe went so far as to call this out explicitly). The ST involves a junker girl saving the galaxy - but completely without the associated proxy values. Rey has been presented as a galactic hero because she is, which is lousy writing.
SpoilerNo. We haven't been conditioned by Star Wars. We were led to believe that Rey's parents would be special and would explain her inexplicable competence with the Force and with lightsabers and spaceships.
You are ignoring that there was a huge marketing effort to make her parents a mystery and suggest that they were important.
If people feel bamboozled, you can't blame them.
I never wanted her parents to be special. I hate the fact that Ben is a Solo. I hate the theories that suggest Finn is a Calrissian, or Rey is a Kenobi. I don't care. It's an entire galaxy. Let's move away from a handful of families. Let's focus on merit and training and earned skill.
So it doesn't particularly bother me that she is a nobody.
But in the context of the rest of the movie, it's obvious that the whole point was to get everyone looking one way, and come at them from the other side. Luke didn't train Rey or end the war. Snoke is a nobody. Rey's parents are nobodies. Poe is a hindrance to the rebellion. Leia is dead but she's not dead. Luke is not dead but he is dead.
I'm not invested in Rey being a Skywalker/Kenobi/Solo/Avatar of the Force. I'm just scratching my head wondering what the **** the director is doing.
Blame Abrams, not The Last Jedi.
Its not Episode VIII's fault that you were sold an empty box. And yet...
Spoilera point can be made that Rey's parentage being important IS still a plot point.
Her completely unremarkable origins is the point. And its important. In fact, its the whole goddamn point of the goddamn movie:
Killing all the Skywalkers won't mean the end of hope in the Galaxy. Because More Hope can arise from everywhere to challenge darkness.
Tracking down all people "strong in the Force" wont prevent more to arise, even from nowhere. Like Rey, like the kid at the end.
In a way, Rey's unremarkable parentage is thus a powerful plot point that is damn necessary to this franchise. Its just not one that people seem to like.
Spoiler
I wouldn't say we were just conditioned by "Star Wars" that Rey's parents were something significant. TFA put some work towards building a mystery around her parentage.
As for a "Hook", I think this movie made it pretty clear what Rey's Hook is. It's up to Rey to figure out what the next generation of force-user looks like. Luke had received some training from Yoda and Obi-Wan, but they're all dead now. Kylo is the only surviving force-user with any connection (Trained by Luke) back to the Jedi Order, and he flirted with Redemption before rejecting it.
Heck, Rey doesn't even have a Lightsaber anymore.
Rey may be a light-side force user, but she's not going to be a Jedi. She has to figure out what that means.
+1 would quote again. I understand that TFA wrote checks that TLJ couldnt bank, but thats TFA's fault. And I still think my idea how you can twist the meaning of "important" still fits..
SpoilerActually, i really like the idea of Rey keeping the Old Texts.
Its like..you found the first edition of [insert religious text] , and you have to interpret it/learn from it without interference from the long line of Priests who each had their own bias, failings and baggage.
She somehow returned to the source of knowledge, and from there will try to find a new truth, with modern sensibilities
..wait, did Rey became a Prophet?!
So, seems like this is a nice place full of balanced arguments. Time to force the internet to endure my opinion as though it mattered.
I saw it. I thought it was great. Far and away better than TFA. I've basically said, TFA is what happens when you sit someone down and say "Make the most generic Star Wars story ever told." That's pretty much what you'd get. You'd have the Empire back for no reason. You'd have a new force-sensitive kid. You'd blow up another Death Star. Yeah.
Last Jedi took a hell of a lot of risks, and not all of them worked. But enough did that I enjoyed the experience and surprisingly few of my predictions of what was going to happen actually happened.
I have seen a lot of Star Wars media, and a hell of a lot more that follows the Lucas guidelines on how to do a Hero's Journey. So watching a movie try to do something different while still paying homage to the old plotting techniques was a breath of fresh air.
And of course, when risks get taken and things don't go the way people believe they are promised, others will find this frustrating. I understand the criticism. Don't agree, but I understand it.
Spoiler
So, I'll go over what I liked.
1) Getting Snoke out of the way. When I saw Snoke in TFA my initial reaction wasn't "Oh, look at this cool old guy, I wonder about his backstory and how he came into power." It was "Oh... they're doing the Emperor again. Why the Hell are they doing the Emperor again? We saw the Emperor. We saw the Emperor's backstory and it was ****. Do something new."
So getting him out of the way to start focusing on the actual new interesting dark side force user was great. And something I did not see coming. And having no sources of information about the character, except the two movies, we already kind of know enough about him for him to fulfill his purpose in the plot. He's a powerful, probably ancient dark side force user, that appeared after Luke started training new Jedi. Saw the dark side potential in Ben as an apprentice, and fed it to make him a tool for his own ascension as new overlord of the galaxy. Done. That's all we need to know. Whether he was an Inquisitor or some evil sorcerer from the Unknown Regions, or the reborn Exar Khun. It doesn't actually matter for the story of Ben and Rey, which this trilogy is shaping up to be.
2) Rey's parents are nobodies. Thank you. This is great to me honestly. Further enforces the notion that bloodlines shouldn't actually mean anything, which comes back at the end of the movie with the kid and his broom. Anyone can be a hero. Way better than the theories floating around that she was Anakin reborn, or Luke's daughter, or Obi-wan's great-great-twice-removed grand niece or whatever.
Unfortunately, that revelation is still somewhat muddled by the fact that there is still some seemingly heartless random manipulator that gets to pick who gets to be force sensitive and who doesn't. That's a sadly unavoidable problem as soon as you add the divine to any medium. As soon as your God, or Force, or whatever can take an active hand in the setting, as the Force clearly does, then ultimately it gets to decide potential. Of course, you don't need Force powers to be a hero, which we already saw with Han, and now Finn, Rose, and Poe. Sadly their storyline is the weakest of the bunch in this movie. But I'll get to that later.
3) Kylo is still great. I think I was one of the only people who would have answered "what was your favorite part of TFA" with Kylo. Yep. He's a whiny self-absorbed Darth Vader wannabe. And I love that. Scratch the surface of any Sith and you get a crying child about how life's unfair. Vader kept an aura of cool and aloof and being a violent murder machine, but he was only an interesting character and not just a cool looking stage piece once they added the Skywalker connection and potential sources of emotional turmoil and conflict in ESB and RotJ.
So many people seem to just want more Darth Vader. And sure, I get that, and that's why I read the Vader comics (which are awesome by the way) but we already have Darth Vader. Why do we need another Darth Vader? Hell, we already have Darth Vader, Darth Malgus, Darth Marak, Darth Krayt, Darth Bane, Jacen Solo, and Ulic Qel-Droma. We do not need another Sith who happens to check all of Vader's boxes while the writer and audience just sort of acknowledge that we're doing Vader again without actually saying we're doing Vader again. Then comes this kid who is clearly obsessively trying to be Vader that it's a plot point, and just falls on his face. And man do I love it. He was the only interesting thing in the last movie.
And he was interesting in this one, as well. We get to see his exact moment of fall, which makes sense in his head. He already had the call of the Dark Side in him, probably from Snoke's manipulations (since we know Snoke can do funky force stuff involving altering people's minds). We get to see his struggle with living up to the expectations of his fathers and how he ultimately rebels against all three of them (Han, Luke, and Snoke). We see his ambition and the tension between him and Rey works fairly well. Snoke connecting their minds to play upon both of their weaknesses only for Kylo to then use Snoke's own powers against him was pretty great. I also rather enjoyed the following fight scene.
Now we get to see that completely out of his depth child in command of the empire in a way that Vader never was. And it did not disappoint. Constantly using his authority to direct military supplies away from real objectives to assuage his petty vendettas. He's a bully and a hurt child, not a military leader.
4) Luke was fantastic. It actually played with his character flaws. In the original trilogy, Luke is a pretty flawed character. Impetuous, kind of self-centered, and constantly in over his head, but you don't really get the idea that the movie understands his flaws. We got Yoda pointing them out in ESB, but even then it felt more like lip service. This movie put them on full display. Also, some of the best acting Hamill has done in years. Great job Mr. J. I also really loved that the entire Luke/Rey plotline was an inversion of the standard Hero's Journey. Usually, the hero (Rey) refuses the call, meets the mentor, agrees to the call, yadda yadda we all know what a Hero's Journey is. Occasionally there's like a mini-arc where the mentor needs convincing to actually become the mentor.
In this, the entire hero arc is given to the mentor. It's not perfect, the failed tests section happens in flashback during the section it should happen in front of you. But really, amazingly done. It also gave a very important voice to the Jedi detractors, The Jedi himself. Let's be clear, the Jedi were a ridiculously flawed institution. And, much like Luke himself, we get the idea from watching the Prequels that Lucas doesn't actually see the flaws. They were just the good guys.
But we all saw the flaws. Hell, I've had debates about how idiotic some of the old Jedi Order's stances were and how dumb they had to be to use the clones in the first place and do not see the betrayal coming. So to have Luke proclaim the Jedi Order as blatantly flawed as they clearly have an interesting side of the argument on the screen. This realization along with his understanding of his own moral failings when he was tempted to kill his own nephew (even if he wouldn't do it), plus the utter loss his failings resulted in, I can definitely see why he took his next step: He went and found the Sacred Jedi Texts. He went back to the origins to try and find a solution to the problem, and when he found nothing that would solve the intrinsic problems of the Jedi, he hermitted himself.
And then, when he does finally get his act together and goes to save the day. Hot damn that sequence was just amazing. Luke Skywalker is the symbol of hope for the galaxy. Still a man, still flawed. But there he was, facing down the entire First Order. I was grinning like an idiot watching that sequence. Luke stepping up as the Jedi Master we all want him to be, tricking the entire galaxy to save the heroes, sow dissension among the villains, and inspire the next generation of freedom fighters. That's a way to send off a character.
But this is the internet, and I definitely don't think this movie was flawless. Better than TFA and the prequels, but not ANH or ESB territory.
1) The First Order is problematic. I think I understand what they're trying to do. The Empire was always just an expy of fascism drawing mostly from Nazi Germany. And with the whole next generation thing, I think they're trying to show with Hux's bluster and constant reminders he's an angry dog, that these aren't German Nazis anymore they're closer to our own modern day Neo-Nazi's with the angry shouting and the stupid looks. However, that doesn't really work. Because modern Neo-Nazis aren't really a military threat, they're at most a mob. So taking a Neo-Nazi giving them a Nazi uniform and putting them in charge of the actual Nazi Army doesn't fit. I'm of course talking about Hux. The movie seems to constantly make him the butt of jokes, from the very first scene of the movie to the last. Even the chance to reveal he actually had a decent military plan (at least for Star Wars) was undercut by Snoke throwing him around like a ragdoll. The sad thing is, the actor does a fine job pulling off every emotion the director is giving him. From apoplectic rage to sniveling sycophant to fear and indignation. He's fine, but the character just cannot be taken seriously as a threat.
Which is sad, because a different character in that position actually would make better tension. I joked when I watched the first movie that Hux's character would be better if he was blue, with red eyes, and spoke calmer. And, honestly, I think that holds even truer now. Having a professional military to act as a counterpoint to the narcissism of Snoke and Kylo would have made better tension, even in the last scene. I have a feeling that the "mad dog" is going to have some sort of a payoff in the final movie. But honestly, the damage is done. I can't take him seriously as a threat anymore.
2) The stranded rebellion. So of all the plotlines in the movie, the Finn/Rose/Poe story is the worst. The message that beyond the fighting the true evil is societal forces and people that gain off of exploitation and violence is a good one. Honestly, probably the most mature message ever in a Star Wars movie. Unfortunately, the story around the message was pretty dull. Now the kids telling stories about Luke's courage and having the stories influence their own morals and ideals was brilliant. Hell, even the reveal that the Admiral who was played by that lady from Jurassic Park with the hair was actually smart is great. Completely changes what we think was going to happen. Hell, even having the heroes being the reason the plan fails is good. Heroes should be wrong more. The problem came from the setup. So, Admiral Jurassic Park could have solved this whole problem by whispering to Poe that they have cloaking on the transports. But, even ignoring that, the trip to Casino Planet wasn't interesting.
I don't care about Finn and Rose. Finn, to me, was the biggest failure of a character from TFA, and this movie did nothing to change my opinion. Here's a man who was a stormtrooper, who betrayed the First Order. That's awesome. That's a new way to look at the setting. There's tension when we see these Troopers are actual humans, worse, they're child slaves. Finn didn't even have a name. Wow, that's awesome. I wonder where they'll take this thread? Nowhere. In TFA there is nothing to show that Finn is any of those things other than having occasional helpful knowledge. That holds true here. Finn's pretty much a failed experiment at this point. Other than her initial great introduction, I couldn't tell you much about Rose other than she's a mouthpiece about oppression, and spelling out the themes for the audience.
Even when I like the themes they're trying to go for, the whole sequence just is dumb. They could have gotten away with their hacker if they just parked somewhere normal. That was their whole problem. And then, when they can't get their hacker they just get another hacker anyway. And then after they cause all the problems that basically got the entire Rebellion killed, there is no scene to show them regret their decisions. Having flawed characters fail, that's fine. Having your protagonists cause more harm than good, that's fine. But then not taking the time to explore what that failing means to them is the problem. It just makes them seem inhuman. Sure my idiocy just killed everyone I know and may have doomed my entire cause. But I'm not going to acknowledge it and everyone is still going to like me. Yeehaw!
3) The humor. I touched on this one already, when talking about Hux. But it bears repeating, humor is a powerful tool for a movie to warp our opinions of characters and events. Need to let off a little steam after a very tense sequence? Tell a joke. Want the audience to immediately see a character as unimportant? Make him a joke. They don't even really have to be good jokes (though admittedly good is better), but the existence of them helps to set our emotional balance in a place better to be affected by the next tense or dramatic scene.
This movie has a problem understanding which jokes should have been left on the cutting room floor. Clearly turning Hux into a joke was one. But the other big one, to me, where those damn gerbil penguins. **** them. They were fine, not great, but fine on the planet with Luke and Rey. They added some humor while we mulled over the latest sequence of Luke or the rebels in whatever bad situation they were in. Hell, I even gave a quiet "heh" at the scene where Chewie was gonna eat one of them. But in the final fight sequence? When tension supposed to be at the highest? When we should be at the edge of our seats completely caught up in the experience? That's when you cut to these damn gerbil-penguins mugging at the camera three times in a row? Who thought that was a good idea? How? God that pissed me off.
4) The mixed message about personal sacrifice. The movie tries to take an actually kind of interesting point that suicidal sacrifice is ultimately counterproductive and a bit of a stupid way to run a war. Or at least, morally problematic. Poe gets yelled at for sacrificing all bombers to destroy the dreadnaught. Rose gives her big speech to Finn, which was the culmination of their arc in this movie about how we win by defending our friends and loved ones not by trying to get ourselves killed. Yeah, ok. I can see how society needs to stop romanticizing death. I don't 100% agree when looked at from a totally militaristic point of view. But whatever, I'm willing to see how this plays out. Only, the two biggest moments of the film were about heroes self-sacrifice. Admiral Jurassic Park's hyperdrive suicide run and Luke's confrontation with Kylo. They've muddled their own message, and in doing that they call into question the whole big speech with Rose. And since I've already said how much I don't like the Rose/Finn plot, I think having even further outside forces pointing that the revelation of their story arc is wrong is just another problem that this film doesn't need.
5) Where they go from here. So this isn't a point against the movie, so much as me dreading what's happening next. I don't trust Abrams to follow this up with anything original. But even worse than that. If the next movie forces me to sit through a tangled love rhombus where Finn and Kylo love Rey, but Rose and Rey are in love with Finn. And Rey doesn't know what to do. Then I will punch someone.
Your criticism #4
Spoilerabout the value of self-sacrifice
Thats probably one of the most genuinely solid criticism leveled against this movie. It does not bring the movie down, but its sad that they stick with an aesop only to shoot themselves in the foot
As for the film itself, I liked it, but I'm a little worried that JJ abrams is coming back for episode IX.
Spoiler
TFA was a Star Wars Movie made by somebody who LOVES Star Wars, and I think it suffered for it, because it was trying to be The Most Star Wars a movie can be, with lightsaber fights and evil empires and superweapons and dogfights in space. You had cosplay Darth Vader, and CGI Emperor palatine. TFA was about "Hey, Star Wars is cool!".
THIS movie was kind of a rejection of Star Wars. The Jedi Order is gone. The Snoke/Kylo dynamic was burned to the ground, and will never again resemble the Emperor/Vader dynamic. Thematically, the whole "High Risk Heroic Mission" thing gets slapped in the face. Poe gets most of the Resistance killed off, Finn and Rose's mission just gets more people killed, Poe's Mutiny does nothing. Heck, even the Trailerbait "Blow up the mini-death star" thing goes nowhere.
Luke's whole gambit at the end only works because Kylo is just as obsessed by this whole "Single Hero" Narrative as everybody else.
It's got flaws, sure, but I wouldn't call the central themes flawed.
IF episode IX continues this trend, that would be a nice thematic journey for the series. First, a movie very much in the romantic "Heroes Save the Day" Vein. Then a movie about how "Heroes Doing Risky Things" Doesn't work. The third movie is about something new.
But, with JJ Abrams back at the helm, the third movie is likely to feel more like TFA, which would be servicable, but make the trilogy a thematic mess.
This is, in my mind, the difference between Rey and Han:
-Han is introduced as a smuggler with a starship. Throughout ANH he proves to be a good shot with a blaster (which is either implied or outright shown in his first scene, depending on how you interpret it), charismatic (makes sense for a smuggler), and able to fly a starship. His moral character is also a bit vague, as he decides to cut it and run but then has a change of heart. In the next two movies we see him becoming more of a leader, but he's still mainly being charismatic, a good shot with a blaster, and a starship pilot, which was established from the first film.
-Rey is introduced as somebody who collects junk. She's shown to be good with technology and able to use a staff. Then she's shown to be able to fly a starship, alright it's not like characters in the OT didn't have diverse skillsets. Then she's given a blaster by Han, despite already having a weapon that'll serve her well in the situation they're getting into, and is able to use it competently (note that Finn, who is amazing with blasters, is shown to be somewhat poor at CQC). Then she's shown to be a special force person who is strong in the force, enough to resist Kylo. Then when she finally escapes she puts one of those earlier skills to use by beating a not completely together Kylo in a lightsaber duel. Then we come to this movie, which keeps most of the the stuff from TFA but also shows that Rey knows how to use estalished forms of lightsaber combat without training, and is still a special force person.
Annoyingly, I like Rey as a character especially after TLJ gives her a potential flaw or two, but her skill set is 'everything important to the movie'. If she'd been the pilot good with technology and a staff she'd have had enough skills to have a role in the story. Or if she had been the tech-savvy Jedi (Poe not being with the others as the pilot character is still one of my big gripes about TFA). Or potentially the Jedi pilot (hello Skywalker 2.0). But she's everything, revealed over the course of the films as it's needed to be, while Han's primary skills are the first things we see and then we see his morality develop, unlike Rey where we see she's a good person (and that doesn't change over these two films) and then see her reveal more and more sills.
SpoilerI'm blaming The Last Jedi. Because that is the movie obsessed with subversion and deconstruction. And I'm blaming The Force Awakens because it hyped up several themes that they had no intention of delivering.
It's a trilogy. One is a sequel to the other. They go hand in hand.
Dude. I agree that Rey shouldn't have remarkable parents. It's what I wanted. You're ignoring the fact that they framed it as something else. You're ignoring the hype that they generated around it. It's not that people don't like that she's not a Skywalker. It's that people were expecting an explanation for her powers and what we got was "Have you ever seen the Matrix Reloaded? It's like that."Quote:
Spoilera point can be made that Rey's parentage being important IS still a plot point.
Her completely unremarkable origins is the point. And its important. In fact, its the whole goddamn point of the goddamn movie:
Killing all the Skywalkers won't mean the end of hope in the Galaxy. Because More Hope can arise from everywhere to challenge darkness.
Tracking down all people "strong in the Force" wont prevent more to arise, even from nowhere. Like Rey, like the kid at the end.
In a way, Rey's unremarkable parentage is thus a powerful plot point that is damn necessary to this franchise. Its just not one that people seem to like.
You can easily make a movie where Luke and Leia and Han are trying to defeat the First Order, trying to be the heroes and legends that they were, and they can't. New blood is necessary. But are they Skywalkers and Solos? No. They're just regular people with the character, skill, and resolve to take up the mantle where the others left it.
That's perfect. No need to give her remarkable force powers and pretend that she has special parents and then pull the rug out from under everyone.
You're taking the goal (you don't have to be special to be a hero) and saying it has merit, and using that to justify the storytelling that we got. That's not how that works.
You can kill all the Skywalkers and Solos in the galaxy, but there will always be force sensitive people. So you should train them. But if you train them, others will gain power to balance it out. So you shouldn't train them. But how do you make sure that no one will realize their force potential? You can't. So what is the point that the movie is making?
Rey is nothing like Han, not in character, or in purpose to the plot.
Han is somebody introduced with a motive for wanting a lot of money fast as well as just getting off the planet, and as having the skills necessary to do the job. His personality, origin, skills, and motive are all established in the Catina and nothing more is necessary for his role in the story at that point. When he later grows as a character, that is because of the direct interactions between him and everyone else.
Then in the next movie we learn more about his background.
Rey is introduced as a cypher, a nobody on a planet of nobodies, that just happens to wander into a droid. Luke is actually much the same way, but with Luke he is quickly I brought in by Obi-Wan right into the thick of things using the hook that Luke could learn more of his father and become a hero.
Rey remains a cypher throughout TFA. Her mysterious origins are deliberately invoked and questioned again and again. It happens when we learn she’s been abandoned as a child, again when Luke’s lightsaber calls to her (Maz even emphasizes the question), and other characters (like Han Solo) question who she is. In the new movie, its one of the first things Luke asks her (and repeats it), its the question Ben Solo keeps talking about.
Rey’s origins are not something the fits one of the boxes of character archetype like Han Solo at all. She does not simply have a humble unimportant origin like Anakin in Phantom Menace. Her origin question is constantly being reinforced, questioned, and driven home.
Rey is a character with a giant hole in her origin story that is constantly being poked. TLJ decides to keep poking, decides to make it a central question for Rey and those interacting with her.
Finally itSpoiler: Rey’s Origindecides to pull the equivalent of saying the question never really mattered in the first place. Rey’s parents are nobodies and there is no particular reason why she, of all people, was the one blessed by the Force to be Kylo’ssuperiorequal.
We don’t even get a pseudo-scientific explanations like midichlorians.
Then suddenly the past IS important all over again. :smallwink:
I said that TFA set itself for questions it can't answer in 8.
And whilst I can't predict 9 as well as 8 fit all my predictions, they are setting themselves up for a split fanbase.
Spoiler: PredictionsI bet that if the Snoke backlash is hard enough, then he will be force Possessing Kylo ren or something and so his backstory is of a evil spirit or something, and then force luke defeats force Snoke so that he does something more worthwhile then force project and then have an ultzer and die.
It wasnt just a taunt. It's a "ANYONE could be a history-altering "Great Man" no matter their humble origins" story that has to play off JJ's mystery box with "Rey has been obsessing over this the same way the audience has. Really, there's nothing here, and she knows it."
I mean, what was said and Rey's family being important aren't actually mutually exclusive. It just removes that particular possibility.
SpoilerI don't expect Episode IX to pull out a 'you were secretly Yoda's niece all along' plot twist, but I'm saying it's not impossible.
Can't speak for anyone else but for me it's because I got back at one in the morning. I have no desire to speak at length about stuff at that time.
A legitimate criticism of then film would be "I think the casino in space scene went on a little longer than it needed to". Fanboy hang up would be "BUT WHY IS REY'S PARENTS NOT IMPORTANT????".
One is a genuine criticism that I ultimately disagree with, the other is a genuine misunderstanding of the entire point of the film.
Han is obviously a rogue, who is in it for the money. Yes, yes, he develops beyond this, but his initial motivations and portrayal are *not* lily white.
That's, yknow, part and parcel of that whole "shot first" debate.
Not everyone needs to be related to one another, but folks do need motivations for their actions.
You know there have been like 3 writedowns of why people where upset her parents where not important that had nothing to do with fanboying about bloodlines but its dismissed anyways.
How the POINT is executed poorly, and how it comes off more as lazy storytelling then a creative artistic decision?
Can we then call people who defend this movie Fanboys then? Is Fanboy the next conversation ender?
Okay, so, thinking about it, I think we're looking at a very interesting interaction between two, very different types of filmmakers.
JJ Abrahms LOVES Star Wars. He's also a big fan of The Mystery Box, building hype around "Mysteries", where the answer is less important than the audience asking the question.
RoTJ ends with the Empire defeated, the Republic Reborn, and Luke, having emerged as a fully-fledged Jedi, ready to rebuild the mythic order of Jedi Knights. Han Solo has gone from scoundrel to War Hero. Leia is forever Leia. The story of The Rebellion vs The Empire had ended.
But, Rebellion vs The Empire IS Star Wars, and JJ Abrams LOVES Star Wars. So, TFA was a deeply regressive film, mostly interested in recreating the same dynamics of the original trilogy.
Luke's New Jedi Order? Gone. The only remaining Jedi is a space hermit. The Republic that they fought so hard to Rebuild? Impotent to the point of Irrelevance until it gets destroyed by the New Empire's New Superweapon. Han Solo? Back to being a scoundrel with a ton of enemies.
The Emperor? Well, now there's a NEW EMPEROR. He's even BIGGER and MORE DEFORMED than the last one! JJ Abrahms got to make HIS Version of Star Wars! Because, to him (And a lot of people), Star Wars was Rebellion vs Empire.
The way TFA ended, The Last Jedi Could have been a Shot-for-Shot remake of Empire Strikes Back, because they ended in basically the exact same way.
Now, that isn't to say everything is exactly the same, and JJ Abrahms packed a lot of those differences away in The Mystery Box. Who are Rey's Parents? Where did Snoke come from? Who is this Kylo Ren Guy anyway? A lot of "Why is this not just A New Hope" is hidden away as a "Big Secret" to be revealed later.
(Personally, I actually really like Kylo Ren as Cosplay Darth Vader.)
But, The Mystery Box isn't about answers. It's not a storytelling technique, it's a marketing technique.
So, He got to make his Star Wars, and then he handed the movie off to Rian Johnson.
Spoiler
And Rian Johnson had ZERO interest in answering any of the questions JJ Abrahms left behind, because the Mystery Box isn't about Answers. In The Mystery Box, giving answers is a chore, something you have to do because you asked the questions.
He's also actually interested in moving the story forwards. The Rebellion is now down to a handful, the Empire may still be strong, but they're now led by an emotionally compromised, headstrong idiot.
Whatever Rey is, she's not going to be a Jedi.
And I don't think either approach is necessarily a BAD one (Although, I'm a bit more partial to Johnson's). But, they don't work especially well TOGETHER. You're not wrong if you are upset about the big questions being tossed aside, because The Force Awakens put a lot of work into getting you invested in those very same questions.
For the record, Fanboys is a fantastic movie.
Agreed. A lot of the complaints about TLJ are actually about the TFA mystery boxes, and how there's no payoff for them. I compare it to the forum game "three word story" where the forum wrotes a "story" three words at a time. The results are hilariusly bad, and we see the same effect with the director jump.
The film doesn't just tell us Rey's parent's aren't important in passing, it spends lots of time and effort to build it up as a mystery of great importance to Rey, Luke, Kylo...up until Kylo reveals the great insight...Rey's parents are nobodies and it doesn't matter. Then it takes us back to stuff exploding and "laser swords."
As much as I find Kylo to be a unreliable source of information, especially as he delivered it with a self-serving spin, Rey coming from humble origins plays right into the "entire point of the film."
Rakaydos just explicates what the point is.
However, taking issue with Rey's parents not mattering is not a matter of misunderstanding the film, its a matter of understanding exactly what the film is doing, and realizing what its doing is systematically undermining and demeaning Star Wars.
Its not just that Rey has no parents. The Jedi religion has nothing to contribute, the heroes need to learn to stop being so heroic, and the audience needs to forget their expectations for a powerful villain, or that Force skills require training, or for that matter that knowledge requires exposure to books. By the way you can also hack computer systems with bits of metal and its not strange that a lone starfighter or saltfighter can stare straight down on a massive fleet.
In nearly every way this movie can, it throws out the old rules, burns them (sometimes literally), and gives us nothing in its place.
The themes of this film are very muddled
SpoilerFinn and Poe's attempts at sacrifices to same lives -bad.
Holdo and Luke's sacrifices to save lives- good.
The theme is about saving over destroying...except that virtually nobody is saved. Every attempt to save lives results in more deaths of the people they're trying to save.
Attempts made at equivalence between the sides making arms dealers rich...except that the New Republic mothballed their army as soon as they could, and the Resistance is not particularly well armed, it's a huge plot point how outgunned they are.
You don't need to be Skywalkers to be special...which was always true in the first place, but is presented here as something rebellious and revolutionary.
Anakin was the chosen one... and he failed. Repeatedly and hard. He lost to Dooku, hard. Lost to Obi Wan, hard. Lost to Luke. Yet the new films are pretending that the old theme was that only Skywalkers can be special, and that its revolutionary that Force users are constantly born across the universe...when that was always the case anyway.
Anakin, chosen one born from the force, needed extensive training to be able to be able to put it to use against other Force users. With incomplete training, his first battle loses him a hand.
With even more training, he loses to Obi Wan and nearly dies.
Luke went off with incomplete training... and his first battle loses him a hand to Vader.
The Skywalker bloodline was never the automatic route to greatness that these films are pretending it was so they can reject it.
However, every film before TFA, over and over again, stressed the idea that extensive training was necessary to be effective with the Force, even for the Chosen One.
Rey gets exactly one lesson in this film and otherwise teaches herself. She seems to be even more chosen by the force that the character actually called the Chosen One in universe.
The new films are presenting the old ones as something they never were in order to edgily reject them for rebellion cred.
Which is especially notable when Disney revived a completed franchise to make a movie about how wars between good and evil will keep happening as long as they're profitable.
In a way, it's repeating the sins of TFA, just in a different manner.
TFA set up some big Mysteries that it wasn't interested in answering. TLJ didn't care to answer them.
It's still asking Questions, some very good ones at that. If the answer ISN'T High-risk heroic solo missions, bringing back the Jedi Religion, and hitting things with lightsabers, then what IS the answer? Where do we go from here?
And, I don't think we're going to get a good answer to any of those questions in Episode IX, because JJ Abrahms probably isn't any more interested in answering those questions than Rian Jhonson was in answering the questions JJ Abrams left behind. Rey is going to rebuild a lightsaber and call herself a Jedi. Poe is going to jump into an X-Wing and blow something up at a crucial moment. Finn is probably going to risk everything on a commando raid of some sort. They'll rebuild a fleet of cruisers and X-Wings, ect ect.
Edit:
On the specific front of Lightsaber Skills.
Rey clearly has some combat skill (with her Staff). She has two lightsaber fights. One against an injured, emotionally distraught Kylo Ren. The other is against presumably well-trained guards who are not Force-Adepts.
If we assume that force powers give you a pretty substantial edge in close quarters combat (enhanced reflexes, limited precognition, whatever), I don't think we have an equivalent to Anakin vs Dooku, Anakin vs Obi-Wan, or Luke vs Vader. Those were all a less-experienced Force User vs a more experienced force user in the prime of their power.
Let's be generous here, and say that her life on Jaaku gave Rey exceptional training with armed melee combat (Staff), and that some of that transfers over to using a Lightsaber. So, we have a less experienced Force Adept beating a badly injured, more experienced Force Adept, and a less-experienced Force Adept beating several more experienced mundane fighters.
There's other things that could be said about Rey using Force-powers untrained, but I don't think the lightsaber fights are much evidence in that direction.
Thank you, Dianekes. I'm glad you enjoyed it!
It's interesting to me that the part you single out the most as worthy of praise is also the same thing that the harsher critics also liked -- the three way dynamic between Luke, Rey, and Kylo. You both saw the same good points and the same flaws.
I suppose what will spoil a movie for one person won't for another. Takes all kinds, I suppose.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
I find the idea that anyone who dislikes TLJ is an overreacting fan-boy to be odd.
My favorite Star Wars films are Rogue One and Attack of the Clones.
My least favorite film is Empire Strikes back.
Of all the protagonists in the original trilogy C3PO is the only one I remotely like.
I have never consumed any expanded universe media except for KOTOR.
I disagree with the rebellion, the republic, and the Jedi on a moral and philosophical level and always route for the bad guys.
I am a Trekkie for crying out loud.
And I still think TLJ failed on almost every level.
As a standalone movie it ranges from poor to mediocre. It has a few good bits, mostly comedy, and the first act is pretty strong, but for the most part the movie is just long, muddled, and forgettable.
As the second part of a trilogy it is an utter failure. It spends an inordinate amount of time actively pissing on the first installment, does not run with any of the themes or plot elements of the original, and does nothing to set up for or build suspense for part 3.
As part of a franchise it is just baffling. Disney just spent billions of dollars buying the IP, they have three more SW movies currently in production and another trilogy planned after that as well as a TV show and who knows what else. Why would they already be doing a hardcore deconstruction of the franchise and its fans? If they felt they needed to move away from Star Wars why use the Star Wars brand to do it? Why not just put their Disney dollars and the minds behind the MCU into making a new original SF series? Its almost like they looked at Batman vs. Superman, ignored all of the responses to it, and said "Yep, a deconstruction of a beloved franchise is a GREAT way to revive it for the big screen! Get right on that!".
The best I can figure is that the studio saw all the complaints of TFA being a retread of ANH and overcorrected a little too hard. Hopefully EP IX will find a proper balance.
Edit: Oh, and I roll my eyes at anyone who brings up the "Rey is a Mary Sue," and all of the verboten baggage that comes with it, so that's not where I am coming from either.
"Organized religion is prone to abuse, but dont let that shake your faith in [deity]"
"Not every moment needs a hero... Know when to hold-em and when to fold-em."
Kylo's arc is great. Rey stole the jedi books, possibly early enough to train herself. Physical access is the greatest weakness of computer security. Poe is a hero (again, in a situation that doesnt need heros, which he learns in time to call off the saltspeeeder attack)
So what am I genuinely misunderstanding? That you don't have to be special? Since when did you have to be special? A lot of people are involved in the events of the original trilogy. Leia starts us off by making the plot even remotely possible, and not because she's a Skywalker, but rather because she believes in the resistance and has the courage to use her position to aid it. Obi-Wan then decides to bring Luke along with him. Luke makes many choices along the way that impact the plot, sometimes for the worse. If Han hadn't had a change of heart, Vader would have destroyed Luke on the surface of the Death Star, good by happy ending.
So what am I misunderstanding? Please explain. I find the accusations of fanboyism entirely lazy.
The Original Trilogy, in Isolation, does very little to imply that Being a Skywalker makes you Special.
We learn that Luke is a Skywalker at the end of the second movie, we learn that Leia is a skywalker in the third (IIRC). Luke's connection to vader lets him redeem Vader at the end, and win the fight against the Emperor, and while that's personally quite significant, the Death Star would have been blown up regardless (Vader and Palpatine might have escaped, but nothing that happened in the throne room had any impact on the fight outside).
It's the Prequel Trilogy that set up Anakin as The Chosen One, birthed via Immaculate Conception by the Force itself, implying Specialness to his bloodline, and recontextualizing the first movie. Luke isn't just a Jedi, he's not just the son of Darth Vader, or The Pilot that destroyed the Death Star, he's a Skywalker!
The Force Awakens, by making Rey's parentage a big mystery, also played into the idea that Special People are from Special Families, and the Skywalkers are the only Special Force Family in canon.
Going to disagree. IIRC, most of the characters in the OOT, from Obi-wan to Yoda to Darth Vader and the Emperor, all referred to "destiny". If you have destiny, it follows that you have been chosen to do a specific thing. Everyone who has a destiny has been specially chosen to fulfill it.
Whether everyone has a destiny, or only specific individuals (as in Erfworld) was never spelled out. The point is, though, you can't have destiny without something very like both prophecy and fate. Which means not everyone in the GFFA is an equal. Some, at least, are specially marked out as chosen to fulfill a specific task. Which sounds very divine right of kings-ish.
Respectfully,
Brian P.
But that doesn't mean "Special People come from Special Families", which is the specific point under discussion.
Luke could have been Destined to destroy the death star, defeat the Emperor, and rebuild the Jedi order just the same without him being The Son of The Chosen One, or even The Son of Darth Vader.
Anakin could have been Destined to "Bring Balance to the Force" if, his Father had just been some random slave on tattooine who died in a speeder accident.
Rey can be a Super Force Prodigy, Destined to do whatever it is she ends up doing, while ALSO being the daughter of two nobody junk dealers.
I'm not reading this entire thread I have things to do. Ultimately I disagree with the idea that Rey being all this powerful while having no connections to anyone else to be a meaningless point. Some people are just that skilled. No one got upset at Han Solo DEFEATING VADAR in a space battle. Sneak attack or not. This movie takes the idea of destiny and linage and legends and is like "hey maybe that's...not good? Maybe that's all bull****" and I like that. I don't think it's executed poorly, and it's not lazy. They put a lot of effort into it.
Ray's being a nobody who rises to great power due to determination is not at all undermining or demeaning to Star Wars. The Jedi religion IS PRETTY BAD, and Luke's point about them being corrupt is pretty much correct. The lesson Rose told to Finn was not "don't be heroic" it was "don't sacrifice yourself worthlessly". He wouldn't of stopped the cannon, he was focused entirely on getting revenge, instead of fighting to protect. There's a difference, and it matters. The villain IS powerful, Kylo Ren is very strong and ALSO a huge whiny piss baby, which is GOOD because that's the exact type of environment he was built up in. He's the son of the great Han Solo and Leia Ortaga, nephew of the great Luke Skywalker, Grandson of the great Anakin Skywalker, destined golden child who would balance the force. He's a ****ing moron with delusions of grandeur. He's STILL STRONG, though.
The Force is a belief. Did you get mad at the blind guardian in Rogue One being so skilled with the force? And I mean...yes, you can hack a door open through that. That's perfectly reasonable. He's firing off the electrical signals that would make the door open.
It has given us something in it's place. It's given us the teachings of the Jedi, with the afterthought of where they genuinely failed. And it's given us a new beginning.
The first six films are about how the entire galactic federation crumbles into dust because of a single family having a really bad marital dispute.
I think we're in agreement that the original trilogy didn't require anyone to be special as far as bloodlines go. There were many heroes in the original trilogy that weren't a Skywalker.
SpoilerRegarding the prequel, it's an interesting thing. Because the new prequel seems at odds with it. Anakin is the Chosen One that will bring balance to the force. We understood that to mean he brought balance when he destroyed Darth Sidious. But the new trilogy is telling us that the Force balances itself. As one side grows stronger, the other side grows stronger as well. As Kylo gains power, some random person in the galaxy also grows in power. But not necessarily on the light side, because it's implied that she could go dark side at any moment?
So what does that mean? At first it required the actions of a very special person (born of the Force) to restore balance. But now, balance just gets restored on its own. Rey isn't even doing anything. She is simply equal to Kylo Ren. Boom, balance restored. So... how does the balance work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakaydos
SpoilerSo the point I'm missing that La Zodiac is alluding to is that orphans will always be disappointed when they find out their parentage?
That's the point of The Last Jedi??
So you say. It seems like a very weak message or story to tell. It seems very... out of place even.Quote:
Blaming the movie for getting us to empathize with that is out of place.
SpoilerGet the movie fanbase hyped up over her parentage to then pull a fast one, so that we can empathize with orphans? Um... ok. No wonder I misunderstood lol. That's horse****.
I was going to reply to Pendell but BRC said what I would have said, so no need.
I would actually say the roots that Skywalker makes you special is a bit more important in the OT than you’re giving credit to.
Now the first movie sets it up more like anyone who truly believes in the Force can be a Jedi. But by the second and third we are getting specific lines like “That boy is our last hope.” “No, there is another.” Implying the entire state of the galaxy and the Jedi order rests on the shoulders of Luke and Leia specifically. This along with Luke saying how the Force is strong in his family. “I have it. My father has it. And my sister...”
Now the Prequels take the subtext of the importance of lineage that was pervasive in the last two OT movies and runs it into the ground.
You're welcome, I suppose. I don't think I've ever been thanked for writing my meandering thoughts on a movie before.
That's not what he meant. The Force is a balance. Things always even out. It's not saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power to beat his power, just that something will rise up to beat him. Rebellion, another force user, people in general. The Force IS the balance of things.
That's not even remotely what the point is. The point is that sometimes legends are just legends. Rey knew her parents weren't special, so she looked for parents in other figures. Han, Leia, Luke. But in the end what she needed was to accept her past and move on to a better future. Trying to find something special about "her past" distracted her from realizing that she herself can be special due to who she is.
Look, ultimately JJ Abram's dumb mystery box took advantage of a lot of fans and made them start theory crafting about who her parents could be. In the end the answer was "they were just her parents" isn't satisfying feeling compared to the build up, but I do feel like the movie did it's best to make the reveal that they were nobody, as important as if they were revealed to be somebody. Kylo Ren even says that if he ties herself to him, she can "be a part of this story". She'll have a connection that makes her special. But in the end it's she who decides why she's special, she who earns her place in this "story".
SpoilerYes, it is saying that someone will be granted overwhelming power. That is the explanation we received for why Rey can outmaneuver anyone on the Falcon, why she defeated Kylo Ren in combat the first time she wielded a lightsaber, why she was able to defeat Kylo's mental interrogations, etc.
It's because she's Agent Smith and Kylo is Neo. As he gains power, she gains power. Because of the balance. We learned this in the throne room. That's the explanation of her miraculous power. Case in point, Luke has never felt a power like hers except in Ben. Why? Because they are equal parts on opposite sides of the equation.
I hope you liked The Matrix Reloaded :smallwink:.
Quote:
That's not even remotely what the point is. The point is that sometimes legends are just legends.
SpoilerRight. Sometimes legends are just legends, and sometimes legends are just people that consider murdering their nephews in cold blood because they no longer believe in redemption and stuff. I get it. Sometimes what came before has to get profaned to move forward. Sometimes you just have to **** on stuff to make new stuff.
The 'Chosen One' ends the prequels as a ball of fire with no limbs, having been spectacularly defeated by someone with no known special bloodline. Why is that being taken as an endorsement of 'only special bloodlines can do special things?'
That's not even what happened though. Luke saw the darkness within Ben, and knowing that not cutting out the darkness was what ultimately destroyed the Old Republic, he turned his lightsaber on as a reaction. However, it was a momentary lapse, which he regretted and he was not going to kill Ben because he does still believe in redemption.
Remember, this is Luke. His first reaction to finding out bad news was to scream at it like a child. Then, 4 years later, he put his plan in motion to redeem his father. Here, at least he was going to put the plan in motion after about half a second.
Only, Ben didn't give him a chance. And it's worth noticing, that in their first confrontation, Ben attacks and instead of defending himself, Luke just tries to calm Ben down. He even later says that if Ben can be redeemed, he's not the one that can do it. Because Ben believes Luke betrayed him. He even apologizes for that during their final meeting.
I don't think that profanes Luke at all. It's a bit melodramatic as a story set up. But, honestly, I can't think of a family based story that doesn't fall back on melodrama to get tension building.
He does. But he ends his life defeating the greatest Sith ever (at least according to Lucas). Something that Obi-wan and Yoda were unable to do.
By that point he'd already helped bring down the Jedi order and establish the Empire. Then, he went on to be the Emperor's right-hand man, before finally killing Sidious.
He was The Chosen One, Born of The Force Itself, Destined to Reshape the Galaxy, which he did, twice. He just got lit on fire and had his limbs chopped off somewhere in between. That didn't exactly slow him down as time went on.
I mean, he was like...six feet away when she stopped him. I think he'd have made it just fine. And if it wouldn't have stopped the cannon, then why the hell did they attack in the first place? According to them, stopping the cannon was entirely the point. I don't really know exactly how, because the saltspeeders didn't seem like they came with any great plan to begin with, but slamming into it seems as good a guess as any.
Exactly.
Do you remember that Luke turned his lightsaber *off* in the presence of Darth Sidious and Darth Vader? To redeem his father. He left himself vulnerable and got fried by Sidious. All the while calling out to his father to save him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dienekes
SpoilerNow he's older, and wiser, and a Jedi master and... murderous and afraid and reactionary. Right. Brilliant storytelling. Incredible realization of the character.
Quote:
However, it was a momentary lapse, which he regretted and he was not going to kill Ben because he does still believe in redemption.
SpoilerHe tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.
Because he nearly was a child and learned something horrific, something opposite to what he had been led to believe.Quote:
Remember, this is Luke. His first reaction to finding out bad news was to scream at it like a child.
SpoilerIn The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.
I do. I also remember when he flew into a rage and turned it on. I also remember this was again 4 years after the initial revelation.
No, he says "I can't redeem him." He can't do it. He's the one that ****ed it all up. A Skywalker speciality, really. Rey might. Hell, Finn might for all I and he knows. But he's not the one that can fix Ben. And he still goes out and tries to apologize for his actions anyway.Quote:
He tells Leia Ben can't be redeemed.
He's a Jedi Master seeing the potential destruction of everything he worked for right in front of him. And still chooses not to go through with it. He shouldn't have turned the lightsaber on, and he knows that. He acted rash, impuslively. And after giving it a seconds thought realizes his mistake. A bit too late in this case.Quote:
Because he nearly was a child and learned something horrific, something opposite to what he had been led to believe.
In The Last Jedi, he's a jedi master standing over a sleeping child. Even young Luke that "screamed like a child" was brave and inspired enough to sacrifice himself attempting to redeem his father. Not sure why older Luke is no longer that. Movie doesn't tell us either.
Just like Luke always was.
He says he's not going to kill Sideous. Only for Sideous to taunt him and he then tries to kill Sideous and fights Vader. He says he won't fight Vader, only for Vader to say "Well, guess I'm gonna mess up your sisters life then." And then he fights Vader. He was going to kill his own father too, if it wasn't for the moment of realization that he was acting just like him (a point introduced by focusing on the similarities of the lost hand and reinforced by Palpatine hamming it up in the background).
Then. Finally. He turns the lightsaber off. After ****ing up about 3 times, he does the right thing.
That's Luke. One of the greatest protagonists and all around **** ups in film history.
SpoilerThis only works when you have a pair of force users communicating with each other so that the one on the Star Destroyer is expecting the other one to show up--and can sense that they're actually on the incoming object.
SpoilerBased on my one viewing, I got more or less the same impression. I didn't catch numbers, but Kylo definitely drew more attention and killed more of the guards on his own. It's reasonable to conclude that he's better at combat (as long as he isn't severely wounded) even if Rey can match him in a direct tug-of-war via Force strength.