@upho:
Since both PrC direct advance their associated class and also count as that class for all purposes (with the exception of the first level of Evangelist), I don´t thing the +1/2 IL level can and will come into play.
@upho:
Since both PrC direct advance their associated class and also count as that class for all purposes (with the exception of the first level of Evangelist), I don´t thing the +1/2 IL level can and will come into play.
If a class fully advances maneuvers, then it is a maneuver-using class... at least for those levels. There is no reason for the +0.5 to kick in except for the levels that don't directly advance maneuvers.
So for the Evangelist, the first level is +0.5, and every level after then is +1.
You can laugh about the ambu-lancer all you want, but I'll show you! I'll show all of you!...ahem.
I'm waiting to hear back from some of the other PoW guys before answering this, but IIRC class features can't advance beyond your HD anyway. I'll have an answer for you as soon as I can.
EDIT:
After conversing with other members of the DSP team, MilleniaAntares hits the nail on the head.
No extra +0.5 levels because those levels count as full initiator levels already.
Well, specifically only for those levels that advance the previous class. The levels that give "+1 level of existing class" would give a full +1 IL. The levels that do not give "+1 level of existing class" would not. And it would only apply if you were using that level of Evangelist (or whichever PrC) to advance an initiating class. Does that make sense?
A gentle reminder that the IL progression rules are part of PoW, not LotW. It's not something to be defined in Greater Werewolf or Formless Master because the rule is specific to Initiator Levels, and honestly the interaction is simple:
Does this level provide/advance a primary initiating class?
If Yes, +1 IL. If No, +.05 IL.
Thanks for all the input!
I realized a bit too late that this should've been posted in a PoW thread instead of here, as this is a concern of the base System and Use rules, and the wording of the related PrC features in LotW seem to be at least as good as that of the Paizo equivalents.
Anywho, I just have one remaining question regarding this.
Thanks for the clarification. Is what you're saying here the only possible conclusion when taking all the current related PoW RAW into account, or is it something that you think will need to be addressed in the upcoming PoW errata?
Spoiler: What I believe the current RAW saysJudging from my own reading, even after checking up on details I probably would've missed if not for Florian and Millenia, it appears the current RAW actually does produce a +1.5 IL result due to the combined effect of the following rules (my emphasis):
"If you are a multiclass martial disciple, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial disciple class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes."
"At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class." (Or similar feature.)
Gaining +1 IL/level is a class feature of full initiators (referring to the System and Use rules in their "Maneuvers" feature), and all levels in any other classes grants +1/2 IL/level, while the PrC feature explicitly grants the class features of both the PrC and the related class. So the above rules clearly say that for the purpose of calculating total IL, for example a warder 5, Evangelist 10 actually treats his "total level" as 24 (14 levels of warder + 10 levels of evangelist), and that 14 of these levels grant +1 IL/level and the remaining 10 grants +1/2 IL/level, while there is nothing in the current RAW which contradicts this.
Still, even if I'm correct I have a hard time seeing people treating the affected PrC levels in any other way than as Elric describes, as I believe people will either simply assume that's how it works just like we have, or they'll quickly introduce it as a house rule after discovering the RAW produce very awkward and likely unintentional results. So this probably isn't a big issue in practice.
I think both, Formless Master as well as Evangelist are conceptional pretty flawed and could have been handled better. In essence, both are actually simple templates with an advancement scheme based on HD and could tie in better with the "Monsters as characters" or more advanced "Racial Points" rules and work more closely with APL.
(Looking at Formless Master and the Battle Templar, this all will lead into strange, unanswered questions territory)
Let me post the text from Formless Master, because that's what matters. For better or worse I can't do anything about Evangelist, it's not my product.
The bolded text is the important part. The first sentence describes what doesn't advance from your previous class. The second sentence describes what does advance. Note how things like initiator level and spellcasting are called out specifically? They function identically to how they do as if you had taken a level in the (for lack of a better term) base class. There is no ambiguity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Formless Master
@Elricaltovilla:
This is a playtest thread, so we´re talking, amongst other things, about the possible Worst Case Scenarios. This has nothing to do with personal feelings or accusation but just about handling things.
Three of five levels of Formless Master advance the chosen base/core class. Amongst other things, that means the the "worth" of a level of Formless Master can be pretty much based on the "worth" of the base class it is chosen to advance.
Applying 4 levels of Formless Master to Mystic Theurge is a thing, applying 5 levels to Agent of the Grave even more so, as it covers and entirely different PrC completely.
Simply put, the mechanics here are extremely wide open to abuse.
Edit: And yes, I can fully understand the basic intention. "but you loose two levels!". That means nothing when you actually gain 3+ levels on the way ...
I apologize for not being clear enough. There is no RAW ambiguity about how Formless Master, Greater Werewolf, Greater Vampire, Gravity Slime Master, or any of the other DSP prestige classes that contain the class feature "+1 level of existing class features" interact with the rules regarding Initiator Level.
As for how potentially abuseable the prestige class is: the answer is "About as much as the class it advances, minus 1 or 2 levels depending on whether or not you take the final level of Formless Master." Because if you advance mystic theurge, then you're going to get advancement comparable to mystic theurge. If you advance Agent of the Grave, you'll be getting advancement comparable to Agent of the Grave. You're always going to lose at least one level of that previous class. That means a loss of caster level, spells known, maneuvers and stances, power points, and whatever other resources your class has to hand.
As a bit of correction though, you can only apply 3 levels of Mystic Theurge or Agent of the Grave. Because there are only 3 instances of "+1 level of existing class features" in Formless Master's advancement table.
No need to apologize at any point. *laughs* I´ve been working in advertisement a decade and we had a principle we called the "ignorant test". Meaning we create something and then test it against someone who has absolutely no prior knowledge about what it is and see how he handle it.
In contrast to that, I know what you want to say and intentionally set out to destroy it. For me, personally, the important question rather is where you draw the line in the sand, if ever.
@Florian:
I'll note here that, behind the scenes, I have an ever-evolving build I call the Chained Classes, where I push for as many PrC capstones as I possibly can while maintaining some semblance of synergy working toward a common goal. My current record is on a Mystic base, either Human or else leading with GCube 2. I managed to get four Prestige Classes to cap, five if I'm not limited by setting and go Evangelist (the four being Forgelord, Gravity Slime Master, Mongrel, and Formless Master in that order).
Here's the thing I discovered. It doesn't matter what initial classes you use, the build trends toward the mid-low T3 range. In function, each different class you chain in will cost that initial class one to three levels. In the Mystic build, I end up with an IL of 14 and a class level of 8. While that's not BAD per se, it denies the 8 and 9 level maneuvers. This really hurts casters, because they heavily depend on that CL and don't get half of their off-levels.
PrC themselves are pretty uninteresting in PF. They are not the prime source of synergies in this system.
I'm not really worried that DSP will revise Formless Master to be a template, but I did want to say that I appreciate it more and will find more use for it as a Prestige Class than I would if it were a template.
DSP has also said they will not be working with racial points, and more importantly none of their published races have RP info, so if they suddenly went with an RP cost here, that would make it incompatible with their other offerings.
A Prestige Class has costs built in, such as entry requirements and in this case ‘lost casting/initiating levels’ that would not exist as a template. I can more easily integrate a prestige class into a campaign than I can a template – a template really requires that I do *something* with *other PCs* to balance giving the template to one PC, while a PrC like Formless Master is intended to be balanced even if only one person decides to take it (or any other Prestige class).
Heck, I’d like to see the Werewolf template as a class too (like DSP is doing with races, if the Gelatinous Cube race is an example) – I’d get more mileage out of that in my campaigns. As it is I’m planning to buy this when it comes out *because* it has prestige classes and a new Discipline.
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say you're absolutely right about every feature you mention except IL. And you're right that there's no ambiguity in the current RAW, because very clearly IL advances with both primary initiator class and other classes.
A primary initiator with 4 levels of Formless Master means that yes, 3 of those levels advance his primary initiator class IL, just as normal. But nowhere does it say that he does not count all his 4 levels of Formless Master as granting +1/2 IL. That is the problem.
The System and Use RAW very clearly says to count all levels from classes other than the primary initiator class as granting +1/2 IL. And for example a warder 4 / Formless Master 4 still has 4 levels of such "other classes", regardless of whether 3 of those levels also happen to have class features which explicitly grant him +1 IL/level advancement.
Do you see the problem?
I think at this point it's probably best saved as yet another thing to toss onto the Path of War errata list.
In the meanwhile, we can just link one of the posts up above.
Yeah. Although it's actually also an issue for some Paizo corner cases as well, such as a monk 5 / Evangelist 10 gaining 16 uses of Stunning Fist per day, or (if having the Monastic Legacy feat) unarmed strike damage equal to that of a 19th level monk.
In short, this isn't really an issue isolated to DSP stuff and they can't of course change the problematic Paizo rule texts, although they could eliminate the problem for options created by them by adding a few words to their affected PrC features and System and Use.
I've posted a question about this on the Paizo boards. Please post comments regarding this there and hit the "FAQ" request so we might save DSP some work. :smalltongue:
Just a minor update, but the varsärk has been edited to allow for skald compatibility.
For those of you wondering where the Chimera Soul Style feats are, blame Keledrath. He took all the good ideas for his shifting feats. :smalltongue:
Cool. My only question is if a skald in wolf form can actually use his Perform skill to continue his raging song, according to RAW? If so, I guess it would be more appropriate to call it "raging howl"... :smalltongue:
And what about say a skald with the war drummer archetype? Would that actually be compatible with the varsärk?
(On a more nitpicky note, the name Varsärk rubs me the wrong way, since it essentially translates into "in human shape". But I guess if you don't know that... Ooops! :smallredface: Move along, nothing to see here!)
The skald's raging song does not require a perform check in any way, shape or form, whether to start or maintain.
Spoiler: For Length
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skald
Again, same for the War drummer archetype. There is nothing specifically preventing the two from working together.
If you want to nitpick the name, you'll have to take that up with Andreas, who is Swedish, my boss and also a viking.:smalltongue: He's the one who suggested the name.
Ah, you're right. (Hmm... Wonder why I somehow thought otherwise...) Still, I must say I absolutely love the mental image of a wolf growling and howling the party into frenzy. Not to mention one who is actually banging its paws on a big drum for the same effect! :smalltongue:
Well, Old Norse is of course rather different from modern Swedish, so it's not impossible he knew the etymology of bärsärk, which is rather widely known, and simply mixed it with varulv (werewolf in Swedish), which sounds pretty cool, but... (More etymology nerding below.)
Spoiler: Old Norse NerdingAFAIK, you're right about the etymology of berserk (or berserkr in Old Norse). But the wolf equivalent is called úlfheðinn (úlfheðnar in plural) in Old Norse, and literally means wolf pelt. Here's what Wikipedia says, which I think is a pretty decent summary on what is known about these "elite berserkers of Odin":
Perhaps more importantly, the var-part, or were in Old English (as in varulv in Swedish or werewolf in English, from the German word warwulf or werwolf), literally means man. Hence werewolf means "man-wolf". Very appropriate and to the point, I think. Note also that the word var (or varulv) didn't even exist in Old Norse AFAIK, or at least not with that meaning.Quote:
The Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), another term associated with berserkers, mentioned in the Vatnsdæla saga, Haraldskvæði and the Völsunga saga, were said to wear the pelt of a wolf when they entered battle. Úlfhéðnar are sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: [Odin's] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk'." In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts (below) a scene of Odin with a berserker—"a wolf skinned warrior with the apparently one-eyed dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang... and the god Odin"—with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features.
And särk is a word that still exists in Swedish, having pretty much the same meaning as in Old Norse AFAIK, and is the word for a piece of clothing probably best described as a loosely fitting rough shirt, or coat. So varsärk would literally translate into "man-shirt" or "man-coat". And if varsärk is intended to have a contextual meaning similar to berserk, the word would actually probably be best described as "in human shape", or perhaps "in furious human form" or similar:
May I suggest Ulvsärk, which could be "a wolf version" of berserk? Or simply the actually historically correct term, in the anglicized form Ulvhedinn? And if you don't like the ulv-part, you could perhaps put something together from freki or valdr, both being used as alternative words for "wolf", I believe.Quote:
To "go berserk" was to "hamask", which translates as "change form", in this case, as with the sense "enter a state of wild fury". One who could transform as a berserker was typically thought of as "hamrammr" or "shapestrong". For example, the band of men that go with Skallagrim in Egil's Saga to see King Harald about his brother Thorolf's murder are described as "the hardest of men, with a touch of the uncanny about a number of them...they [were] built and shaped more like trolls than human beings". This is generally interpreted as the band of men being "hamrammr".
BTW, Order of the Stick, Paizo and DSP are at least partially responsible for me having this pretty useless amateur-ish nerdy knowledge about Old Norse, since that mix of elements is probably what gave me the idea of running a PF campaign in the first place, and then of making a setting largely based on Old Norse mythology and viking culture... :smallwink:
I appreciate the etymology lesson, I do. As a writer, it's always interesting to learn about words and their history and I don't get many opportunities to learn the etymology of languages other than English, so thank you for the lesson.
But I think we're going to stick with varsärk, for a couple reasons.
1. I like it as a portmanteau of varulv and bärsärk. If you take the word in that context, it's an extremely apt name as the class is literally about battle raging so hard you turn into a wolf. So, while it may not be strictly accurate (and for that I apologize) in terms of language of origin, it is an excellent descriptor of the class.
2. If I were to go with the more accurate name you provided, úlfheðinn, I'm fairly certain that 90% of our readership would be unable to pronounce the name. Which is unfortunate, but since I'm not even 100% sure how to pronounce it, I think it'd be unfair to foist that problem off on our dear readers.