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Originally Posted by
Snowbluff
I'd like to remind everyone that if anyone is getting an ambush, it's not the ranger. For the sake of parity, if the ranger knows anything about his target, the wizard is also aware of the ranger, and is much more capable of preparing a head of time.
Nothing I have stated here requires any of the above. The two could be standing a hundred feet apart on an open field and the ranger could still rocket tag him by winning initiative. As you point out, it would actually be easier for the Ranger in this case because he could open with a full round volley of death.
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A solar is the first thing a person with Simulacrum would make when he gets the spell.
Where are you getting an ice sculpture of a solar from? The material component of the Pathfinder Simulacrum is quite a bit harder to cough up because it has to specifically be an ice sculpture of the target--a specific solar, as it were. What Solar is going to stand around and let you carve an ice sculpture of it? I mean, yeah, you could probably eventually get one if you really wanted to and were high enough level, but that's hardly the first thing on the list unless you planned on not using simulacrums for awhile. I've been playing D&D for over two decades now. I have literally never seen anyone playing a wizard who walked around every day with a solar simulacrum shielding him.
Also, how is this 11 HD solar surviving your encounters when it rolls around with shield other on all the time? Its regeneration doesn't apply against the damage from shield other, and it has fewer hit points than you do. You not only have to get an ice sculpture of a solar, you have to keep getting ice sculptures of solars every time some random encounter rolls your simulacrum. Every time that thing gets destroyed you're looking at 11,500gp lost and another quest to go carve a new ice sculpture of a solar. It's highly impractical. This was a valid strategy in 3.5e because of the easier material components, but not in Pathfinder. Simulacrums of common creatures are one thing, simulacrums of exotic ones are quite another. Even if you had a captive solar in your laboratory, that's just inviting outsiders to hassle you. Impractical.
Let us not forget also that simulacrums are still quite specifically made of ice. There is nothing in the description that even remotely suggests that they do not melt in above-freezing weather like normal ice. Admittedly, this is up to the DM since there are no first party rules on ice melting.
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They have telepathy, and communicate to each other silently. It's kind of like the hive mind for drones DARPA is working on. Any creatures within an attack range or simulacrums lost could be reported to the wizard.
Another use for that ranger's infinite horde of friendly woodland animals (or animal companion). Blindsense just tells you were a creature is, not anything about the creature.
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You have to roll a one sometime. 100 of these is only 50 kgp.
Well, it is more practical than the Solar.
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If I was aware of the attack, I would totally have them spam things like grease on ranger's equipment.
And there's about a dozen ways he can foil them ever noticing him till he popped out and spoiled the surprise round. If nothing else, Burrow would work, and it's only a 3rd level spell. The ground blocks line of effect, so blindsense doesn't work. He would obviously need a necklace of adaptation, but I've barely even spent any of his money.
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You mean a guide in his favored terrain who happens to have the... wait, no master hunter? Even with readied shots on "casts a spell," this sucks.
It's probably about the best he could do with a standard action--there are a few spells that might be helpful, but none more than hindering the wizard's casting. Which is, again, why he should spoil the surprise round and just full attack. Also, there's a ranger spell that solves that favored terrain problem (Terrain Bond, hour/2 levels), so that's a non-factor.
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You can't kill the wizard in a standard action, and that's assuming he's done nothing to avoid being ambushed.
Again, why he would be better off spoiling the surprise and using a full round action.
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Guide doesn't even match up to the Diviner's +10 to initiative and +4 from a familiar.
Sorry, sorry, it was Warden, not guide. Guide gets something better than favored enemy, but I meant Warden above. He actually does give up favored enemy, but he gains up to five favored terrains (so a +10 to initiative with Terrain Bond). He gets an additional +2 from being able to hear himself after level 4 (because of some stupid interactions about who counts as an ally--you are your own ally). That's +12. It's likely that the ranger would have a better dex than the wizard which should make up the difference. Traits, races, and feats are the same for both classes for initiative bonuses. Both classes can Anticipate Peril. If he really needed to mess with this, the ranger could buy a dueling cestus and still use his bow, which is actually reasonable since it's cheap and lets him threaten adjacent squares without snap shot.
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When speaking of potential init, the wizard seems to be winning handily. Do you have other bonuses past your higher dex that a wizard can't access?
It seems to be that the ranger would eck out +1 over the wizard assuming the wizard optimized for con rather than dex as his secondary attribute.
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The only assumption I am making is that the wizard is making a singular spell choice and an intelligent school choice,
Only assumption about the ranger is that he picked an archetype and focused on a bow. But you are also assuming quite a bit more than that by devoting large portions of your starting gold to simulacrums and that your character regularly acquires ice sculptures of solars and such. Again, I wasn't even giving that ranger particularly good equipment. An archery ranger at level 20 with a +5 bow? Please?
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which is a fraction of a feat in terms of selection. I mean, for 28 kgp a wizard can have 5 simulacrums of himself as decoys.
Actually 50k--they cannot be assumed to last forever because eventually they would either be destroyed or melt.
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That's assuming he doesn't spend all of his free time casting Blood Money (having a Solars restore his stats and health) and making more Simulacra. This is just an example of how one spell grants a significant advantage over a ranger. I haven't otherwise touched his wibblemancy, said anything about Astral Projection, Gate, Planar Binding, Genesis, Blood Money subsidized Wishes...
Ranger's got money, means he's got wizardry. Anything you can do, he can do 1/day. Anyone at that level can pull stupid spell tricks.
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To paraphrase Tippy "If a wizard makes it to level 20 without dying, he's already a better optimizer than you."
And Tippy is flat out just plain wrong about that in 99% of cases. Funny how all them sub-optimal fighters, ranger, rogues, etc make it to 20th level without being optimized wizards. Might suggest unoptimized wizards can make it there too.
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You would have to hit with each attack, at -2 and iterative penalties,
Not really a problematic assumption at that level against a wizard who isn't buffed for combat.
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with the highest damage attack being done with the large penalty. If you do the math, I think the damage falls short quite easily.
My calculation didn't even include hammer the gap. Note how I point out that it does not include critical hits, hammer the gap, favored enemy bonuses, etc. That's over 210 average off a **** weapon with nothing but a high strength and deadly aim. Plus 7d6 in elemental damage which may or may not be resisted. Literally, I'm not even counting everything and I've got your wizard's HP beat.
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Oh, he posted against me again. I thought he bowed out. To be fair, this is a little crazy.
Well, I admit I'm getting a bit tired of you ignoring whole portions of the argument, such as the parts where I'm not even including the things you're arguing about int he calculation. I'm being super conservative on this estimate, and it's pretty clear the wizard is in danger of dying in the first round. Which is pretty much always the case for any contest between 20th level optimized characters.
Wizards aren't high tier because of their combat potential, they're high tier because of their versatility. There's lots of stuff that can kick the **** out of them in a straight numbers game. Rangers included. Wizards are Tier 1 because they can avoid this ever happening, but were it to happen, it's pretty clear the ranger could very easily kill the wizard or at least force them to emergency teleport out.