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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.
Name one. As I recall every single person in the Magic Kingdom is a Caster capable of natural shockomancy along with a slew of magical powers all of whom can and by Erfworld rules should be hired out by sides for various purposes of war, combat and protecting sides from the aforementioned two things.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Razade
Name one. As I recall every single person in the Magic Kingdom is a Caster capable of natural shockomancy along with a slew of magical powers all of whom can and by Erfworld rules should be hired out by sides for various purposes of war, combat and protecting sides from the aforementioned two things.
Plenty of them explicitly live peacefully and don't engage in combat at all. Possessing the ability to fight doesn't mean you're not a civilian.
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Originally Posted by
Recaiden
1. You may as well blame the Coalition for forcing Parson into the MK in the first place.
2. After the casters attacked them.
1. No one "forced" Parson to attack Jetstone through a portal. No one "forced" him to station troops there. No one "forced" him to try to get to Charlie through his portal. Those are choices he made, and he is responsible for those choices.
2. Again, after they performed necromancy on several units, wiped away their personalities, and forcefully recruited them to their side.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
1. No one "forced" Parson to attack Jetstone through a portal. No one "forced" him to station troops there. Those are choices he made, and he is responsible for those choices.
Good, then we agree that Charlie is responsible for his own choices as well, which includes the indiscriminate fire into the MK.
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2. Again, after they performed necromancy on several units, wiped away their personalities, and forcefully recruited them to their side.
Which doesn't change that the casters attacking them were no longer innocent non combatants.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Plenty of them explicitly live peacefully and don't engage in combat at all. Possessing the ability to fight doesn't mean you're not a civilian.
Then you shouldn't have a problem giving a name for one of them. By the rules of Erfworld there are no Civilians. Erfworld is a combat game made real and war is "cute" by our standard. Parson's changed that obviously but he was summoned to do that. By some of the self styled pacifists you're claiming aren't part of the war. The Neutrality of the Magic Kingdom as a whole also does not reflect the fact that Casters are intended to be hired by sides who can't afford to keep them indefinitely.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
1. No one "forced" Parson to attack Jetstone through a portal. No one "forced" him to station troops there. Those are choices he made, and he is responsible for those choices.
No one forced Parson into this conflict in the first...oh wait. Parson is doing what he has to do to survive a world that's not his own and fighting against a side that has repeatedly broken the rules. If Parson wasn't playing dirty he'd be dead. The entire story is stacked against him because his opponent literally is cutting the deck. An antagonist, by the way, who has had mostly a free pass in Erfworld because he's got the money to do what he wants.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
2. Again, after they performed necromancy on several units, wiped away their personalities, and forcefully recruited them to their side.
We've never seen Decryption "wipe away" someone's personalities. Altered them sure but they're still mostly the same person which I think is actually worse. If they were wiped clean and replaced with a separate personality it'd be easier to stomach than the forced brain washing the Pliers do once you've been Decrypted.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
Not sure how it's brainwashing any more than what units naturally experience to their ruler when they first pop, the only difference is that they retain the memories of their prior life. I am certain that if Albert were croaked and decrypted, he'd be just as snarky with Wanda as he was with Jillian.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
virgileso
Not sure how it's brainwashing any more than what units naturally experience to their ruler when they first pop, the only difference is that they retain the memories of their prior life. I am certain that if Albert were croaked and decrypted, he'd be just as snarky with Wanda as he was with Jillian.
It is, in every sense we've seen, a fundamental shift in their personality and previous beliefs. The fact that it functions as a change of Duty only further speaks to the underlying horror that is Erfworld where no one has Free Will and whose very existence is as tenuous as a change of clothing. It's worse when the base person remains the same but the things they believe and have faith in can switch on a dime with a little meddling, especially when there are things like Thinkamancers running around.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Reverent-One
Good, then we agree that Charlie is responsible for his own choices as well, which includes the indiscriminate fire into the MK.
Charlie being responsible doesn't absolve Parson. It's possible to have more than one crappy person in a scenario like this.
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Originally Posted by
Reverent-One
Which doesn't change that the casters attacking them were no longer innocent non combatants.
No, they were just people defending themselves. The one's Parson got killed immediately prior to that were just minding their own business.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
Then you shouldn't have a problem giving a name for one of them. By the rules of Erfworld there are no Civilians. Erfworld is a combat game made real and war is "cute" by our standard. Parson's changed that obviously but he was summoned to do that. By some of the self styled pacifists you're claiming aren't part of the war. The Neutrality of the Magic Kingdom as a whole also does not reflect the fact that Casters are intended to be hired by sides who can't afford to keep them indefinitely.
Isaac along with most of the thinkamancers are noncombatants. Janis certainly is as well. Actually, every single Hippiemancer pretty much has to be by definition. Even among other disciplines there are any number of non combat things a caster could hire themselves out for.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
No one forced Parson into this conflict in the first...oh wait. Parson is doing what he has to do to survive a world that's not his own and fighting against a side that has repeatedly broken the rules. If Parson wasn't playing dirty he'd be dead. The entire story is stacked against him because his opponent literally is cutting the deck. An antagonist, by the way, who has had mostly a free pass in Erfworld because he's got the money to do what he wants.
This argument would make more sense if Parson didn't literally have the ability to leave Erfworld at any time.
Even if for some reason we decide to blindly ignore that fact, he's still responsible for his actions. He didn't need to invade the MK to survive. At all. That's a complete fiction. It was tactically beneficial, but he certainly didn't have to do it to survive, or even win the battle.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
We've never seen Decryption "wipe away" someone's personalities. Altered them sure but they're still mostly the same person which I think is actually worse. If they were wiped clean and replaced with a separate personality it'd be easier to stomach than the forced brain washing the Pliers do once you've been Decrypted.
Some characters like Jack retain most of their personality, while others like Ansom are very, very different. Even in the most benign cases, wiping away all of someone's loyalties and replacing them with slavish devotion to yourself is pretty freaking awful.
Would you be willing to have someone do it to you? Somehow I doubt it.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Actually, every single Hippiemancer pretty much has to be by definition.
Olive.
Parson was prepared to lose everything without a single shot being fired. So it's bizarre to say the subsequent shooting is a direct result of Parson's actions. Nor was Parson responsible for Wanda taking over and Decrypting casters, or for Jojo's propaganda. So you have one indirect cause to work with--that is, that Parson's very presence in the MK put the MK at risk. Of course, the MK was already at risk from a Charlie invasion--MK just didn't know about it. Now they do.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Some characters like Jack retain most of their personality, while others like Ansom are very, very different. Even in the most benign cases, wiping away all of someone's loyalties and replacing them with slavish devotion to yourself is pretty freaking awful.
Would you be willing to have someone do it to you? Somehow I doubt it.
I don't think Ansom’s personality changed. He always was a bit of a fanatic, all that changed was the focus of his fanaticism from „royalty” to „toolism”.
Maybe it seems that way because he fights his former allies now, but at his core he is still Ansom, Prince of Jetstone. He still acts like he did pre-volcano and definitely still cares about his family to a certain degree.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Isaac along with most of the thinkamancers are noncombatants. Janis certainly is as well. Actually, every single Hippiemancer pretty much has to be by definition. Even among other disciplines there are any number of non combat things a caster could hire themselves out for.
Not physically fighting does not in fact make you a non-combatant. Isaac is the leader of a world wide conspiracy to control the world and works through agents (like Parson) to fulfill their purposes and desire. That is the very definition of a combatant. Janis has fought and Janis was part of the plot to bring Parson into the world and is using him to her own ends as well. She's invested in this entire War to end War. She's a caring and kind soul at heart but her actions are killing a lot of people. You've got a weird way of defining non-combatant. I'd call both Janis and Isaac pretty dang belligerent at this stage of the game. And Hippimancers are used in war. Someone's already pointed out Dove. Any other characters you can think of?
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
This argument would make more sense if Parson didn't literally have the ability to leave Erfworld at any time.
You'd have a point if Erfworld itself has made it impossible for Parson to leave. Fate all but refused to let Parson even know the scroll he had would let him leave and when he tried, because he did try to go home, Fate decided it was time to bring a flaming building down on top of his head. Or have you forgotten? It's like we're reading two different comics at this point.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Even if for some reason we decide to blindly ignore that fact, he's still responsible for his actions. He didn't need to invade the MK to survive. At all. That's a complete fiction. It was tactically beneficial, but he certainly didn't have to do it to survive, or even win the battle.
Well two things. War sucks and you have to do horrible things when presented with horrible outcomes. The other option is to let the very agressive and very eager people who want to kill you...kill you. I don't know about you but it if came to me living and doing something horrible and me dying in a battle I didn't want to fight in the first place...I sure hope it's no one I love on the other side of the conflict because they're going to go down. Or I'm going to try and take them down, I'm a 5'3 mildly overweight dude with little to no combat experience so my chances of being effective in a combat situation is slim to none. But I sure won't let that stop me. I'm going to live as long as I possibly can and screw everyone else who has decided that that's not about to happen.
The second thing however is that Parson isn't responsible for his actions. Not really. Because Erfworld is a world governed by Fate and the story we're being given is a story that Parson is even fighting Fate itself to do what he has to do. Wanda's little speech about how Parson is going to do horrible things because he has no choice wasn't her being her drab weird self. She's being serious. There's no autonomy in Erfworld because there's no Free Will. There's not even an illusion of Free Will. Every unit and every character from the lowest Stabber to the highest Ruler knows Fate and knows that they live and die by it. Parson is no different except for the fact that he was summoned to put an end to this crap show.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Some characters like Jack retain most of their personality, while others like Ansom are very, very different. Even in the most benign cases, wiping away all of someone's loyalties and replacing them with slavish devotion to yourself is pretty freaking awful.
Ansom is still Ansom, he's still the same brash overconfident jerkhole he was before he Decrpyted. Now he's just found a new religion and he wants to spread it around a little more zealously than before.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Would you be willing to have someone do it to you? Somehow I doubt it.
I believe I've called the entire world of Erfworld a horror show. One more horror on top of the crap sundae that is a world where your every action is dictated to you by some unseen and unknowable meta-entity means little to me. I'd rather blow my brains halfway across Gobwin Knob than live in a world where even the illusion of Free Will wasn't a thing. But even then, I'd be fated to do that. Like I said, horror show.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Lethologica
Olive.
Parson was prepared to lose everything without a single shot being fired. So it's bizarre to say the subsequent shooting is a direct result of Parson's actions. Nor was Parson responsible for Wanda taking over and Decrypting casters, or for Jojo's propaganda. So you have one indirect cause to work with--that is, that Parson's very presence in the MK put the MK at risk. Of course, the MK was already at risk from a Charlie invasion--MK just didn't know about it. Now they do.
The point being that none of this would have happened if he didn't disregard the MK's neutrality and station himself and his troops there in the first place.
Hell, none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to break their neutrality again by having Lillith try to use the portal.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
Not physically fighting does not in fact make you a non-combatant. Isaac is the leader of a world wide conspiracy to control the world and works through agents (like Parson) to fulfill their purposes and desire. That is the very definition of a combatant. Janis has fought and Janis was part of the plot to bring Parson into the world and is using him to her own ends as well. She's invested in this entire War to end War. She's a caring and kind soul at heart but her actions are killing a lot of people. You've got a weird way of defining non-combatant. I'd call both Janis and Isaac pretty dang belligerent at this stage of the game. And Hippimancers are used in war. Someone's already pointed out Dove. Any other characters you can think of?
Do you know what the word combatant means? Because it doesn't seem like you do.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
You'd have a point if Erfworld itself has made it impossible for Parson to leave. Fate all but refused to let Parson even know the scroll he had would let him leave and when he tried, because he did try to go home, Fate decided it was time to bring a flaming building down on top of his head.
Or have you forgotten? It's like we're reading two different comics at this point.
He doesn't try so the point is moot.
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Well two things. War sucks and you have to do horrible things when presented with horrible outcomes. The other option is to let the very agressive and very eager people who want to kill you...kill you. I don't know about you but it if came to me living and doing something horrible and me dying in a battle I didn't want to fight in the first place...I sure hope it's no one I love on the other side of the conflict because they're going to go down. Or I'm going to try and take them down, I'm a 5'3 mildly overweight dude with little to no combat experience so my chances of being effective in a combat situation is slim to none. But I sure won't let that stop me. I'm going to live as long as I possibly can and screw everyone else who has decided that that's not about to happen.
War crimes are a thing. So no.
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The second thing however is that Parson isn't responsible for his actions. Not really. Because Erfworld is a world governed by Fate and the story we're being given is a story that Parson is even fighting Fate itself to do what he has to do. Wanda's little speech about how Parson is going to do horrible things because he has no choice wasn't her being her drab weird self. She's being serious. There's no autonomy in Erfworld because there's no Free Will. There's not even an illusion of Free Will. Every unit and every character from the lowest Stabber to the highest Ruler knows Fate and knows that they live and die by it. Parson is no different except for the fact that he was summoned to put an end to this crap show.
I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate. If we just say fate is responsible for everything then Charlie should be absolved of all his crimes along with everyone else.
I think we're well into agree to disagree territory.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Razade, I don't feel like debating it anymore. Agree to disagree.
If that's how you feel I suppose.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Razade
The second thing however is that Parson isn't responsible for his actions. Not really. Because Erfworld is a world governed by Fate and the story we're being given is a story that Parson is even fighting Fate itself to do what he has to do. Wanda's little speech about how Parson is going to do horrible things because he has no choice wasn't her being her drab weird self. She's being serious. There's no autonomy in Erfworld because there's no Free Will. There's not even an illusion of Free Will. Every unit and every character from the lowest Stabber to the highest Ruler knows Fate and knows that they live and die by it. Parson is no different except for the fact that he was summoned to put an end to this crap show.
But that's not how Fate works. Parson must do certain things that he's fated to do. At the same time, there's a great deal that it not predetermined, and so he can be held accountable for almost everything. Certainly how he chooses to fight Charlie. Parson fought Fate directly with his bracer in Jetstone, Maggie told him that the sword wasn't controlling him, etc. If most things don't have Fate, then whenever a fated being interacts with them, they're still responsible.
Wanda wants to believe that there's no free will at all because it would mean she's not responsible at all for these horrible things that have happened. She might actually believe it. But that doesn't make her right about it all.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate. If we just say fate is responsible for everything then Charlie should be absolved of all his crimes along with everyone else.
Indeed. "Personal freedom of choice in a world of high-level imperatives" has always been the most interesting aspect of Erfworld, and it's sad that it's been on the backburner more often than not ever since the beginning of Book 2.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Do you know what the word combatant means? Because it doesn't seem like you do.
Sure do. Generals are, according to you apparently, non-combatants.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
He doesn't try so the point is moot.
Except he does. I just posted the exact page where he tries.
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Yeah, it was time now. Time to go home.
He spoke, with a new understanding of how to intone the words of a spell. It was as different from plain speech as singing, but in a magical way.
“Roses are–”
The burning plaster hit his arms, just soon enough to warn him, just the barest moment before the flaming wooden beam came down on his helmet and flattened him to the floor. The magic sense–and every other sense–left Parson Gotti‘s mind.
Bottom of the page. There's nothing to argue here. You are, without a shred of doubt, wrong in the above statement.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
War crimes are a thing. So no.
I'm not going to insult your intelligence by acting like you think what you just said had anything to do with what I said in the quote. Regardless, War Crimes aren't a thing in Erfworld so you don't have a point even if it was relevant.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate. If we just say fate is responsible for everything then Charlie should be absolved of all his crimes along with everyone else.
Carny magic displaces Fate. For a time. Charlie is a Master Carnymancer, he's been mucking against Fate for a long time. Willfully. It is his fault. Parson doesn't have that power. Though I agree that certainly is one of the themes. I wish we could get back to it.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
I think we're well into agree to disagree territory.
Well, I thought we were done but you edited in replies after telling me you weren't going to carry on the discussion anymore. But I agree, I don't see a point when you're going to ignore actual text in the actual comic so you can keep making your point.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
The point being that none of this would have happened if he didn't disregard the MK's neutrality and station himself and his troops there in the first place.
Hell, none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to break their neutrality again by having Lillith try to use the portal.
That he was generally putting MK at risk by his presence I've already granted. How was Charlie firing indiscriminately into MK and killing neutrals a foreseeable consequence of Lillith's directions?
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
The point being that none of this would have happened if he didn't disregard the MK's neutrality and station himself and his troops there in the first place.
Except, that without it he would be attacked by casters, and probably killed. He did took it for his protection. Sure it has after effects, but this wasn't squarely on his shoulders.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Hell, none of this would have happened if he wasn't trying to break their neutrality again by having Lillith try to use the portal.
He wasn't breaking their neutrality. Neutrality says don't enter any other side's portal. There is no rule about picking up stuff that fell out of an enemy portal. He was bending around the rules, but he wasn't breaking like in Book 2, where he entered enemy territory off turn.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
Do you know what the word combatant means? Because it doesn't seem like you do.
Neither do you, for that matter. Let's look at: https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/e...chapter1_rule3
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According to this rule, when military medical and religious personnel are members of the armed forces, they are nevertheless considered non-combatants. According to the First Geneva Convention, temporary medical personnel have to be respected and protected as non-combatants only as long as the medical assignment lasts (see commentary to Rule 25).[14] As is the case for civilians (see Rule 6), respect for non-combatants is contingent on their abstaining from taking a direct part in hostilities.
The moment those casters pulled out their wands and start firing, they lost any right to call themselves civilian. And this makes sense. A doctor operating on a patient is a civilian. A doctor that takes a gun and starts firing isn't a civilian. If it was another way, you'd have armies marching pretending to be Red Cross.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
War crimes are a thing. So no.
War crimes are a thing in our world. In Erfworld how do you determine culpability when your Warlord can essentially compel other units to do something, even if they disagree, unless they think it won't help side. In Erfworld compelling someone to fire at a Healomancer isn't a thing you can refuse. Not without a strong sense it would hurt your side.
And even beyond that, there is a matter of Fate. They definitely influence your decision to some extent. While I don't agree that Fate is all encompasing. For some interpretations, Fate could have heavy influence over actors in a prophecy, or perhaps everyone else.
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
I don't agree with that at all. The whole point of the story is about subverting fate.
For a story about subverting Fate, there was very little Fate subverted. So far none. Fate was only delayed.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
-D-
While I don't agree that Fate is all encompasing. For some interpretations, Fate could have heavy influence over actors in a prophecy, or perhaps everyone else.
The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing. There's no such thing as Free Will or Subverting Fate in a world where Fate exists. If you do something that wasn't Fated...that's just Fated to happen. If you're Subverting Fate you're just doing what you're Fated to do. If you haven't Subverted Fate yet, you just weren't Fated to do it at that moment.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Anteros
We don't need to imagine hypothetical farm workers. There are plenty of innocent non combatants in the MK who are now dead as a direct result of Parson's actions.
I could understand someone seeing things this way if they had been talking with Jojo.
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Originally Posted by
Razade
The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing.
That's not the way Fate works in Erfworld according to Marie. It seems that you are applying your understanding of fate from some other source to Erfworld's version of Fate.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
Razade
The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing. There's no such thing as Free Will or Subverting Fate in a world where Fate exists. If you do something that wasn't Fated...that's just Fated to happen. If you're Subverting Fate you're just doing what you're Fated to do. If you haven't Subverted Fate yet, you just weren't Fated to do it at that moment.
Fate has been consistently portrayed as narrower than that in comic.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
eschmenk
I could understand someone seeing things this way if they had been talking with Jojo.
I could see someone agreeing they were a purple balloon after talking to JoJo.
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Originally Posted by
eschmenk
That's not the way Fate works in Erfworld according to Marie. It seems that you are applying your understanding of fate from some other source to Erfworld's version of Fate.
I definitely where Razade is coming from. Manos, Hands of Fate in Book 2, shows us that Fate can do stuff beyond just vague notions. Unless someone is telling me that a piece of wood, had Fate to die in the fire, I'm going to say that my interpretation of Fate definitely is leaning more to all encompassing. And while Predictamancers do see some elements of Fate they probably don't have the full picture.
Fate can at very least manipulate other Erfworlders (Archons saving Charlie, possibly Jill's jester) and objects (Parson's clash with flaming piece of wood) as well as Numbers (modifying spawn rate of Dwagons). I'm pretty sure if Wanda jumped of a tower she would survive, albeit incapacitated.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
eschmenk
That's not the way Fate works in Erfworld according to Marie. It seems that you are applying your understanding of fate from some other source to Erfworld's version of Fate.
Marie explains it from her understanding certainly. We're unlikely to get any further insights from her on the matter however.
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Originally Posted by
Lethologica
Fate has been consistently portrayed as narrower than that in comic.
Except for the times it has not, in fact, been shown to be that narrow you mean.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
-D-
I'm pretty sure if Wanda jumped of a tower she would survive, albeit incapacitated.
Surviving a jump is a normal though unlikely possibility, as is a 2% chance of failing to cast a spell.
In Book 1, Wanda would most likely jump, and survive. Book 2 or later? Fate would do something showy to the preempt the attempt entirely, like an earthquake "happening" to knock her off her feet before she got anywhere near where she could jump.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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It's like we're reading two different comics at this point.
People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
-D-
Fate can at very least manipulate other Erfworlders (Archons saving Charlie, possibly Jill's jester) and objects (Parson's clash with flaming piece of wood) as well as Numbers (modifying spawn rate of Dwagons). I'm pretty sure if Wanda jumped of a tower she would survive, albeit incapacitated.
I agree that Fate can do those things, but that doesn't mean that Fate is always controlling everyone and everything. Marie says that Fate doesn't care about some people. Why would Fate necessarily bother to control someone who is irrelevant to Fate's interests?
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Originally Posted by
ryuplaneswalker
People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.
I think you are overreacting. You seem to be making an assumption about what factors are involved in reaching the stated opinions. You aren't a mind-reader. You may not be correct about what factors were involved. Secondly, the statement you quoted doesn't give any indication about which of the two people involved would have been the one reading the wrong comic in the analogy, so it seems to be a huge leap to say that it is "disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid." It merely seems to indicate frustration to me.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
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Originally Posted by
ryuplaneswalker
People need to stop saying this, coming to a different opinion as to what is happening based on the evidence has nothing to do with reading two different comics. It is disrespectful, insulting and frankly just a way to call people stupid for disagreeing with you.
Except in this case the poster was arguing something that actually happened in the comic didn't actually happen. With such force of conviction I can't just assume they forgot about it. The only other option available is we're not actually reading the same work. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of missing something that was objectively in the work we're discussing.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Razade
Except for the times it has not, in fact, been shown to be that narrow you mean.
Really? We've been shown an all-encompassing Fate that controls everything? Please cite page numbers.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lethologica
Really? We've been shown an all-encompassing Fate that controls everything? Please cite page numbers.
Already provided one. Parson trying to use the Scroll to go home and Fate making sure that didn't happen. That would be Book 2: Text Update 59. The Bracer lied to him even though the Scroll would for sure work and when he was about to cast it dropped a house on him.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
Provides no evidence of what you claim. Only shows Fate enforcing a specific prophecy regarding Parson.
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Re: Erfworld Thread VII: No Consensus, Left Unsealed
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Recaiden
Provides no evidence of what you claim. Only shows Fate enforcing a specific prophecy regarding Parson.
I agree. That's just an example of a situation where Fate did something. There is a big difference between that and what is said here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Razade
The problem with Fate is by its very existence it is all encompassing. There's no such thing as Free Will or Subverting Fate in a world where Fate exists. If you do something that wasn't Fated...that's just Fated to happen. If you're Subverting Fate you're just doing what you're Fated to do. If you haven't Subverted Fate yet, you just weren't Fated to do it at that moment.
Where do those statements about Fate come from? I don't recall any of that ever being said in the comic.