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This seems accurate. If anything, chaos beasts are much more fitting in limbo, both in terms of alignment and appearance-wise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
Dragon magazine modrons have a subtype, for all that's worth. They're also constructs, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurbane
Your arguments were that various aspects of slaadi aren't really "chaos incarnate". Why would chaos incarnate reproduce through disease or parasitism? (And I actually could give an answer, if you cared. Incidentally, it's related to why chaos beasts corrupt other things into more chaos beasts.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
Also...they're not humanoids, they're outsiders. And while they're not described as emissaries, they are still chaos-aligned outsiders. Just about the only pure chaos outsiders out there, in fact; the only other one I can come up with off the top of my head are chaos beasts and titans, and the latter are obviously nowhere near as chaotically-focused as slaads (nor are either as supported by splatbook material, the way that guardinals, angels, archons, eladrins, demons, devils, yugoloths, and oh yeah, slaads are).
They fit in Limbo, but they don't fit as the chaotic counterpart to guardinals, yugoloths, or even modrons...due to being, you know, a single species which barely gets mentioned outside the Monster Manual.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
Just out of curiosity, I did a quick search of creatures with the Chaotic subtype (without also having Evil or Good) that aren't Slaadi:
- Chaos Beast
- Elite Demon War Mount (Mivilorn) (magical beast)
- Entropic Reaper (undead)
- Genie, Marid
- Limbo Stalker
- Mivilorn (magical beast)
- Nishruu
- Titan
- Trilloch
- Valkyrie
Guardinals aren't transformed petitioners like archons and aasimon are, they're 'merely' a mortal species of NG animalian outsiders from Elysium.
I'm not sure what the difference is or why I should care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caelestion
What I'm getting at is simple. Every good or evil alignment has a race of outsiders which are all that alignment with several subtypes, introduced in multiple sourcebooks, which act as (im)mortal incarnations of that alignment. LN has modrons which, while not outsiders, perform the same purpose for LN (and given the mechanical nature of Mechanus, I'm not sure outsiders would have been appropriate). Slaadi fulfil all the requirements (except that some are CE for some reason), which is both why I don't get why some are CE and why I think it would be weird if they weren't the CN demons/eladrins.
(Also, what's an aasimon?)
This comes off as both confrontational and off-topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
It looks like you're committed to not caring and committed to not googling.
I'm really not sure that anything related to LA ratings could possibly come out of this conversation.
Mortals who become spectres are turned into incorporeal mockeries of their former selves, without compassion, mercy, or nipples (as shown by the above picture).
They have 7 undead RHD, and the ability scores they have all get boosted. Their flight is 80 ft. (perfect), which is nice, though I'm not sure why they have a land speed. They get a small amount of turn resistance, and their natural attack is a 1d8 damage-touch that also inflicts two negative levels. In true incorporeal undead fashion, the ones they kill turn into more spectres in a few rounds, which are obviously enslaved by the original one. As with all unlimited spawn-creation, I won't be considering it when assigning a LA.
Two of the spectre's other abilities are Sunlight Powerlessness, which removes your ability to attack and eats your actions if you're in true sunlight (ouch), and Unnatural Aura, which will scare your druid's companion and protect you from annoying wilderness encounters but is otherwise not that important.
I couldn't help but be reminded of the shadow as I wrote this. In terms of HD the spectre is in between regular and greater shadows, but it has better stats than either, what's probably a slightly better damaging mechanism, a higher speed, and stronger spawn. At least +1, and possibly +2, seems reasonable here.
I'll go with +1* for now, but please share your opinions.
I suppose if you're incoporeal, you don't really need nipples anymore...
Incorporeal is a big deal.
7 HD of Undead is a big price.
They have two ability non-scores (i.e. designated point-buy dump-stats), and a bonus to each remaining ability score. Any positive Cha modifier grants a Deflections bonus to AC.
As narrative annoyances, they have Sunlight Powerlessness and Unnatural Aura, both of which inhibit daytime travel.
I dunno, the +1 might be fine.
I'd like to point out that Sunlight Powerlessness is a lot less worse if you can just move through the ground and not worry about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
But where are they supposed to wear their Ghost Touch Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestia
Unnatural Aura's probably about a wash. Sure, it protects you and the party from random animal encounters ... but at ECL 7+, those mostly aren't that big a deal. It also screws with animal companions and familiars, but that's probably going to affect the party more than it helps against enemies.
Sunlight Powerlessness could get irritating. Fortunately, it only applies with the real thing.
Incorporeality is, for the most part, good. However, Incorporeality has the fairly significant downside of making equipment complicated.
You're susceptible to Turn/Rebuke, though you do have a slight bonus to resist it.
How do you advance? I mean, 7RHD is a lot of your build space. Way too much to go with a caster type. You can't really go with a traditional beatstick. You've lost too many skill points on the RHD for a traditional skillmonkey, and most skillmonkeys tend towards significant equipment/gear dependency. You're sneaky enough for scouting, unless there are animals around, but your options are limited.
Martial Initiator, maybe?
...Lips? Undead don't actually use their mouths to speak, anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
Ooo! The nose would work, too!
A spectre is haunting Europe, the spectre of not having nipples....
I think +1 LA is good, I mean I'd play it.
Okay, the Googling thing is fair for aasimon (which I'm surprised to see isn't just misspelling "aasimar"), but no amount of Google-fu is going to explain the question which actually mattered to my point. So...this comes off as accusatory and question-dodging. Also confrontational. Though if asking what the difference between two descriptors is and what relevance this difference has to the discussion is "confrontational," that term is close to meaningless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
...Um...do you remember how this conversation started? Or at least this branch of the conversation?Quote:
I'm really not sure that anything related to LA ratings could possibly come out of this conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
What does any of this have to do with LA ratings, and why didn't you duck out of the conversation then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
You were pointing your proclamation of ignorance & apathy at Caelestion, so I can't be "dodging" it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
I'm a neutral third party regarding your confrontational post against Caelestion.
This is a bystander saying: "Dude, that's borderline not okay."
Yeah: some guy was wrong on the internet, so a couple of us chimed in to correct him.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
Even the OP chimed in, but that guy just kept going.
Legend says he's still going.
Man what?Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
Are you literally starting a derail because your initial off-topic post got answered, and you don't like the answers?
People are helpful. If you ask a question near the topic, you'll get helpful answers. Now you're turning around and trying to smear the people who answered YOUR OWN QUESTION (which was off-topic but not a big deal).
Dude, you're just ... biting all the hands that spoon-feed you.
I agree with +1Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
To answer GWG's questions, aasimon are the any-Good immortal outsiders whose numbers include devas, planetars and solars, which I mentioned because you (incorrectly) suggested that guardinals were the outsiders who best represented NG. They are NG, but they're a proper celestial race, rather than planar avatars of a given alignment (e.g. archons or baatezu).
I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I have to agree that a lot of GreatWyrmGold's replies come across as very rude and confrontational, having been on the receiving end myself once or twice. I don't know if there is a language barrier involved?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nifft
I'd also comment that in general, maybe in the last year or so, these forums have become a lot less friendly than they used to be. Not pointing the finger at any individual here, but the level of snarkiness, aggression and general unpleasantness has been on the rise.
Ah, angels. Those aren't NG, those are Any G; there's an important distinction. (Otherwise I'd almost be counting eladrins and demons as CN outsiders.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Caelestion
I'll just leave that there...Quote:
Originally Posted by Various
Thank you for agreeing with me...Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
Sphinxes are a variety of magical beasts, the various kinds sharing little except for a general winged quadruped shape that comes with Pounce and Rake abilities. The initial MM describes four subspecies.
Androsphinx
12 magical beast HD, large size, good land and fly speeds, and great ability scores (at least +6 everywhere but in dexterity) mean we're off to a great start. The lack of natural attacks beyond two semi-neat claws is disappointing, but pounce and rake make up for that. +13 natural armor doesn't hurt either.
An androsphinx signature ability is its Roar, which can be used thrice per day and grows stronger the more often it's used in a particular encounter. The fact that it's non-friendly doesn't help, though, and the fact that it takes multiple rounds to optimally use is terrible.
Finally, androsphinxes get a small amount of cleric casting. 3rd-level spells at ECL 12 are somewhat lacking, though.
What LA to give? Compared to something like the lammasu, another flying, pouncing, magical beast that gets cleric spells (and ended up being assigned +2), I think +0 LA could be justified. The chassis is nice, but it's expensive for what's basically a gestalt fighter/adept.
Criosphinx
10 RHD, with about everything inferior to the androsphinx otherwise. No casting, weaker claws, no roar, lower speed... A well-built tier 4 or 5 could blow this out of the water with ease, if only by being able to use weapons. Pounce and high strength are neat, but not when they cost half your build. -0 LA.
Gynosphinx
8 RHD, but a chassis that's far superior to the criosphinx's and actual racial traits. Lots of SLAs, some of which aren't even available to full casters at this point, and a permanent Glyph that can be changed once per week. All of this comes with a chassis that's still got large size, pounce, and +8 strength, so it's worth a +1 in my book (arguably even a +2, in fact).
Hieracosphinx
Hawk-headed sphinxes this time. 9 RHD and a very fast fly speed, but once more nothing truly worth spending nine levels on. -0 LA.
I think I agree with you on all your Sphinx assessments.
Gynosphynx has the classic problem of fixed SLAs which are decent initially, but don't scale. At level 8, yeah, you'd want to slap an LA on it -- but at ECL 16, is it still worth that much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
Androsphinx spellcasting scales, but starts so far behind that it looks awful. Losing 7 caster levels to RHD just hurts too much. If Androsphinx had 8 RHD total, with Cleric 5 casting, it would be great.
...I'm confused now. Did you think that the existence of other outsiders who can be NG negated my primary points, or were you not trying to disagree with my conclusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Caelestion
Also a mythic-Pharaonic-Egyptian theme. Which is a stronger thematic link than some groups of monsters get. (Shapeshifting elf-angel things, anyone?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Inevitability
Normally, 12 HD and CR 9 would be a big red flag, but honestly, in the hands of a player, Androsphinx don't have a bad chassis at all. You can go up to Cleric 14th at 20th, and that is no small amount of spellcasting power. +14 STR, +8 CON, +6 INT, WIS and CHA go a long way. In fact, they just about make up for the lower spell DCs.
I find this to be a situation similar to the Green Slaad, yet the Sphinx has a few more HD, and isn't an outsider, so I do agree with +0, even if +1 wouldn't be too out of order, I think. No screaming feature, but a bunch of nice things do add up. A good monster to play, I'd say.
The Gynosphinx is a complicated one, without the Symbol line, I'd say +1. Considering you can make one of each of the seven Symbols once a week, I'd go with +2, the +8 to all mental scores tipping it here.
Androsphinxes would make nice enough Ordained Champions, with just enough cleric casting to get quickened flame strikes at ECL ~17.
Once again, unlike what you appeared to assert, guardinals aren't transformed petitioners (i.e. the souls of mortals who enter their afterlives), as they're a true-breeding planar species, unlike archons, aasimon, baatezu and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold
Sphinxes would also fit well in an Olympian/mythic Greece setting, for obvious reasons.
"This creature is basically a bear-sized wasp monster that can paralyze its prey for weeks, lays eggs inside of them, and is supernaturally resistant to all movement-impeding effects."
"What are you going to name it after?"
"Probably its diet. It eats spiders: how crazy is that?"
4 magical beast RHD, large size without reach, a decent land speed and good fly speed, some natural armor, and okay ability scores all around, but animal intelligence and no opposable thumbs.
A spider eater's other traits aren't that important to its LA. Implant is merely a flavor thing, and the poison is very unique but unlikely to ever see much use in combat (and even then, there's easier ways to get save-or-lose poison).
Freedom of Movement, however, is essentially a free slotless 40000 GP item that gives a highly desirable effect at quite a high caster level. It's awesome, and it's going to ruin a lot of terrain effects and monster abilities.
I think the spider eater is worthy of +1 LA, just like the similar hippogriff and giant eagle/owl. Arguably, +2 might be in order, but let's stick with the lower value for now.
+2 if it can use items, yeah.
Flying + freedom of movement is strong.
Monsters I Never Noticed Volume X: The Spider Eater.
The poison is pretty cool. That's got to be one of the longest-duration (nonpermanent) (mundane) effects anywhere. It's a shame Contagious Paralysis probably doesn't work with paralysis poisons, otherwise you could have a lot of fun throwing paralyzed kender at your enemies. With the base save DC of 12 + CON, the poison is not strong even when you can wait 1 minute, and resistance/immunity to poison is common, not to mention good fortitude saves and paralysis immunity. Overall, very unlikely to actually work.
With only one extra HD, you get Huge size, which is neat, with +8 STR, +4 CON, and +3 NA up for grabs. Probably some extra reach, too.
Freedom of movement is great, and probably the equivalent of some lower-level class features, but honestly, spider eaters are going to be dumb melee brutes no matter what--they aren't suited to spellcasting (or at least, they need Surrogate Spellcasting and Ur-Priest shenanigans), they are incredibly unsuited to skills, and face duty is best left to the gibbering mouther. It can, you know, actually talk.
Also, going by the given weight, it's about twice as dense as a bear. Go figure. +1 LA is okay, if you consider that you can get templated/buffed to some workable intelligence.
As an aside, Inevitability: Did you officially establish that INT --, 1, or 2 creatures are assumed to be able to take class levels, for the purpose of LA assignment? I just saw a rule in Savage Species, explicitly stating that creatures with intelligence scores below 3 cannot have levels in any class, which would kind of hurt the spider eater, for one. I wouldn't want to advance as magical beast, no matter the freedoms of movement I might get.