There's no ban for such thing in anything I've ever seen though... Groin, throat, eyes and spine are pretty universally banned in MMA competitions, and nothing else as far as legal target goes.
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As a comment on free sparring, our club's rules for such is "no punches to the head, kicks to the head are allowed". Not "use karate only". Those of us who know other arts can and do include them, though you rarely can even tell. It's not like basic punches etc. are that different between arts.
In my experience, the problem is not breadth of techniques, but the fact that you can't use full force for most of them. In the dojo, you will never be allowed to, say, break an arm with a lock. On the street, you may have to.
I was a bit confused about the roundhouse kick part. Are we talking about (in karate terms) mawasigeri, uramawasigeri or ushiromawasigeri? Because first and second will leave your body sideways at most and you will face your opponent whole time. In the case of third, I agree. It's needless against common folks.
Also, I had a lesson where we practiced mule kicks against moving targets. Turning tail was half the point, because it leaves you in best position to run away. Of course, context is important: most self-defense situations are drunken brawls, and a drunken agressor will often puff their chest when coming at you, leaving their stomach wide open. So you pre-emptively knock wind out of them and run. Quess which art this was.
The roundhouse we were discussing is the roundhouse from muay thai. I don't know which, if any, of those karate "roundhouses" it would translate to. I've always been more concerned with what works more than what the techniques are called. Consequently I rarely know the original name of a technique, just the engish name.
As for MMA rules, different circuts have different safety rules, but attacks whose sole purpose is to cripple the opponent are generally out, not just as a safety concern but also as a matter of respect for your fellow competitors. This generally means no striking the back of the head or spine, no small joint-locks, no kicking directly into the knee-cap, no spiking the opponent, etc. Then there's the dirty fighting moves that are eliminated, no eye-gouging, no fish-hooking, no hitting "below the belt," etc.
Of note: if you automatically picture the UFC when you hear "MMA," it might interest you to know that the UFC has some of the most stringent safety rules of any MMA circut.
Come down to Florida some time, walk into a knife/self defense shop or grab a bud-k catalog. Then get a Concealed carry permit. Congrats, your legal.
And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?
The few I've checked had hitting with the broad "meat" of the elbow as a legal move unless you were driving it into the top of the skull, but hitting with the narrow, forward facing point was not because most areas the sport occurs in consider that lethal force.
I don't think so. If you get into a self-defense situation where you win and your enemies have sword wounds, that's not going to look good on your end. A pocket knife could achieve the same results, while also being a utility tool. A sword, especially a concealed one, can only really be justified as a weapon intent on causing harm – especially because a regular, run of the mill wooden came can be used for defense with a much lower fatality rate.
I think Akido and Aikido are separate styles. I don't know much about Akido except that it exists.Quote:
Learning the basics of Akido or Tai Chi or a similar style has the advantage of teaching you a lot about using your opponents balance against him and about how to redirect his force. Though a lot of presser points and stuff are banned for safety reasons which hurts such forms a lot.
Yeah, mostly. You can get them here in the states, but it's kind of shady. Bud-K catalogues have little footnotes that not everything you can get in them is legal in every state. They sell butterfly knives, for instance, which are pretty uh, "frowned upon" around these parts.
I am pretty sure that there is no permit in the united states which allows for the concealed carry of any blades weapon. You also get into implied ethics, premeditation, acceptable force and necessity of combat.
No, its really just that performing them effectively enough to actually deter a conditioned fighter requires soft tissue damage. One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.Quote:
And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?
Small joint (toes and fingers) manipulations is not allowed.Quote:
And I was under the impression that a lot of soft power techniques and presser and nerve strikes and small join manipulations were generally not allowed in competitive MMA?
There's absolutely nothing about pressers of whatever. People punch and knee themselves into such nerve bundles as liver and solar plexus, so worrying about some acupuncture would be pointless...
Kicking the knee-cap is legal. Other stuff listed is illegal indeed.
I'm not sure what you're checking, but the only rule in pro US MMA about elbows is that they can't be "12-6" so go directly downwards.Quote:
The few I've checked had hitting with the broad "meat" of the elbow as a legal move unless you were driving it into the top of the skull, but hitting with the narrow, forward facing point was not because most areas the sport occurs in consider that lethal force.
Silly rule, but somebody had that idea from whatever reason.
There's absolutely no clarification about parts of elbow. People hit with the very tip quite often, indeed.
I really think that somebody would already try those famed 'chops to the cartoid somewhere, somehow. Because they are not illegal at all, and if they allow to win big money...Quote:
One knuckle or a sturdy chop to the carotid can cause unconsciousness by forcing blood to accelerate into the brain pan. It can also do a lot of other things that are worse, so they don't use them. It's also why they get really second-by-second during blood chokes. They can do a lot of harm.
Blood chokes are different - some people go 'second by second' not only because it's safer, but to be sure they have it locked in well, sometimes they just crank the hell out it, because there's opportunity.
UFC really follows only what they have by unified rules of MMA in USA. There are plenty of more strict rulings. Particularly amateur MMA obviously has more things banned, because competitors aren't on high level of athletic and technical shape.Quote:
you to know that the UFC has some of the most stringent safety rules of any MMA circut.
If it's got everything you've got behind it and you miss then there will be a moment when your back is partially exposed, but like I said, it's a very small window that would be nearly impossible for any but the most skilled of opponents to capitalize on.
You can always follow it with a wheel kick or a back kick too, further minimizing the risk. I'm pretty sure I'm blending styles at that point though.
I really should start keeping better track of which moves came from which style. :smallredface: :smalltongue:
Edit: looked up mawashi geri; completely different kick from a thai roundhouse.
Here's a video demonstration of the left-roundhouse. Since I'm a south-paw this would be a standard roundhouse for me since I wouldn't need to do a switch-step first. Notice how when he kicks full-force he can't help momentarily turning his back, though as he explains in a match or fight you'd simply continue to spin until you'd gone all the way around.
In Chicago, as long as the blade is under a certain size (not sure what exactly, I just know that my survival knife is easily too big at 8', handle included) you can conceal carry.
So hey, I'm going to be hanging around here a bit I think, since I've slowly increased my knowledge of and interest in martial arts within the last couple years. I haven't taken lessons yet, but I'm going to next semester once I can fit it into my schedule. There's a Dojo in the town I go to college in. Unfortunately, it's the only one, this being a small town and all, but it seems fairly legit, so it's not as bad as it could be. If I'm right they teach a variation of Muay Tai, but from what I can tell it's pretty MMA actually (with a seperate MMA class for even broader styles, like western wrestling or boxing).
The philosophy as I understand it so far is the idea of having a small set of basic moves and learning how to apply them in as many different situations as possible so as to improve adaptability. Also control of space, and every attack being a defense and every defense being an attack.
Oh, I'm also going to be learning European Longsword, but that won't be until the summer, so that's a ways off.
Currently? Nothing. These were the local circuit rules for open play circa 2005.
A direct downward strike can drive the cranial suture into the brain. You can't do that for the same reason you can't wear gloves; a semblance of safety.Quote:
Silly rule, but somebody had that idea from whatever reason.
Them you're not really thinking at all. You've already said yourself that hitting the throat is illegal. Why would somebody try hopping the throat for "big money" if it's illegal?Quote:
I really think that somebody would already try those famed 'chops to the cartoid somewhere, somehow. Because they are not illegal at all, and if they allow to win big money...
The padding also drastically changes the mechanics. That's why boxers use hooks, striking with the fifth metacarpal knuckle. On a boxing glove it's the most economic, powerful strike. On a naked fist it's waste of energy and a broken bone.
You misunderstand; referees pay really close attention, second by second, because it's dangerous. I believe both blood and air chokes constitute lethal force in enough instances as to say all of them. That ye fighter would just torque the other guy's blood flow to ye brain for 25k or whatever is EXACTLY the reason to have a referee in there.Quote:
Blood chokes are different - some people go 'second by second' not only because it's safer, but to be sure they have it locked in well, sometimes they just crank the hell out it, because there's opportunity.
Fair point. 'bladed weapon' Isn't what I wanted to say, but everything specific I wrote was about specific laws. I know the California penal code section for carrying of weapons by heart, for example, as well as a within-five-years-accurate list of which cities and counties have more stringent rules. Unfortunately, none of that applies generically.
Most places allow the carrying of pocket knives, pen knives and multi-tools, even places that normally crack down on such things (with exceptions, I know a public library where you can't carry anything. But your wallet). Those would be a tool, rather than a weapon. And I am still very positive that the united states pretty universally looks badly at concealing a sword, by whatever definition, for everyday carrying
There is also that carrying a sword is less about self defense than most martial arts.
Neat. Glad to have you! Look forward to the stuff you come up with.Quote:
So hey, I'm going to be hanging around here a bit I think, since I've slowly increased my knowledge of and interest in martial arts within the last couple years. I haven't taken lessons yet, but I'm going to next semester once I can fit it into my schedule. There's a Dojo in the town I go to college in. Unfortunately, it's the only one, this being a small town and all, but it seems fairly legit, so it's not as bad as it could be. If I'm right they teach a variation of Muay Tai, but from what I can tell it's pretty MMA actually (with a seperate MMA class for even broader styles, like western wrestling or boxing).
The philosophy as I understand it so far is the idea of having a small set of basic moves and learning how to apply them in as many different situations as possible so as to improve adaptability. Also control of space, and every attack being a defense and every defense being an attack.
Oh, I'm also going to be learning European Longsword, but that won't be until the summer, so that's a ways off.
One knuckle sounds like a bit of a stretch, but a good knife-hand to the carotid could certainly cause a disruption in bloodflow that would cause unconciousness, though probably only briefly. I'd honestly be more concerned with hitting it too hard and causing a rupture and, consequently, death.
There's absolutely nothing about other elbows that cannot 'drive cranial structure' into brain. Direct downward strikes happen all the time and are legal just because both fighters are at different angle, so it doesn't come straight down.
Much more powerful strikes, from knees to spinning elbows cannot drive anything into brain, broken jaws, orbitals, maxilla's are relatively often, but I don't think that actual cranial splints happen anywhere south of car crashes, those are powerful bones. :smallconfused:
Elbows like that happen from time to time in Muay Thai and don't result in such damage.
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Them you're not really thinking at all. You've already said yourself that hitting the throat is illegal. Why would somebody try hopping the throat for "big money" if it's illegal?
Because such 'chops', open palm strikes and whatever else are not illegal in any way.
So there's no reason to hold back.
Strikes to throat happen, but nobody generally actively aims there, due to illegality.
Of course, but in ungloved no-hold barrel or striking competitions, people still don't completely abandon punches in any way... Very often go for the body, throw it differently, but still punch, to the head as well.Quote:
The padding also drastically changes the mechanics. That's why boxers use hooks, striking with the fifth metacarpal knuckle. On a boxing glove it's the most economic, powerful strike. On a naked fist it's waste of energy and a broken bone.
You misunderstand; referees pay really close attention, second by second, because it's dangerous. I believe both blood and air chokes constitute lethal force in enough instances as to say all of them. That ye fighter would just torque the other guy's blood flow to ye brain for 25k or whatever is EXACTLY the reason to have a referee in there.
I would be really interested as well.Quote:
Find me a single documented case of this, please.
Pretty damn powerful roundhouse kicks land on the neck hole time, and don't cause anything...
Obviously, hand strike has really different mechanics, precision and all, no discussion, but it still doesn't sound probable...
Obviously you have to stay within the constraints of the rules. Our randori is pretty much pure wrestling, no kicks, punches, stuff with the small joints... And it goes until one taps.
Does is simulate a real fight? Far from it. But it teaches you something you don't learn by just repeating the same sequence of moves over and over against a mostly cooperating enemy, starting from the same position each time. The latter shows you the techniques. But the former gives you a chance to implement them against someone who doesn't want you to and learn to quickly spot what to do in the middle of a fast changing situation. You may know a nice joint lock, but if you notice a second too late you had a chance to use it that's not worth all that much.
Mm, no. You're a big risen martyr, if you're interested you can look it up yourself. I've seen it happen, bu that's inevitably anecdotal and not documented. Its not a game I care to play. I'm not worrie about whether you believe it or not.
Cranial suture. Look it up in an anatomy text and then think about it.
You've answered your own question without challenging my claim at all. Thank you.Quote:
Because such 'chops', open palm strikes and whatever else are not illegal in any way.
Strikes to throat happen, but nobody generally actively aims there, due to illegality.
Irrelevant. You're assuming. This, again, doesn't challenge my statement at all.Quote:
Of course, but in ungloved no-hold barrel or striking competitions, people still don't completely abandon punches in any way... Very often go for the body, throw it differently, but still punch, to the head as well.
Oddly, this is documented. One of those martial arts travel and compete shows, a-la deadliest warrior, has at least one instance of a roundhouse to the neck causing unconsciousness due to messing with circulation.Quote:
Pretty damn powerful roundhouse kicks land on the neck hole time, and don't cause anything...
@suius
you are aware, I hope, that any point of view mentioning even only laterally "deadliest warrior" as a worthy source of information instantly loses credibility, right? :smallbiggrin:
In fairness, I very much doubt that deadliest warrior is what SiuiS had in mind. Probably just used that title because it was the first one to come to mind.
More likely he was thinking of fight science, or one of those other nat' geo or discovery network shows.
There's exactly zero travel for the hosts of Deadliest Warrior.
You do have a point though. Entertaining as it is, Deadliest Warrior is -not- good science on a number of levels. From using base-line human averages for calculations in reaction speed and general movement to "experts" that clearly know everything about their weapons except how to properly wield them (with a few exceptions), they've got more than a few holes in their number crunching.
Well, sorry, no one is playing "game" or "martyr", and there's no reason for such tone.
You are making a claim, you should back it up, it's pretty obvious.
Ok, so there are sutures, in the cranium, and they like... exist.Quote:
Cranial suture. Look it up in an anatomy text and then think about it.
I'm not sure how should it be relevant to anything. :smallconfused:
Any source about them getting damaged by strikes of any sorts, let alone elbows?
Then what's your point.Quote:
You've answered your own question without challenging my claim at all. Thank you.
Chops, open palm strikes and whatever are legal.
Striking the neck is perfectly legal as well. Throat and spine are banned, but those are smallish part of the neck, especially in more 'bulked up' individuals.
So 'cartoid strike' or anything similar, is again, perfectly legal.
So chops to the neck are perfectly legal.
Can't state it more simply.
I'm assuming what?Quote:
Irrelevant. You're assuming. This, again, doesn't challenge my statement at all.
Again, I'm just stating that I've never have seen someone seriously go for "neck chops" even in bare knuckle fights. So gloves or lack of such don't seem to be relevant.
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Oddly, this is documented. One of those martial arts travel and compete shows, a-la deadliest warrior, has at least one instance of a roundhouse to the neck causing unconsciousness due to messing with circulation.
That's interesting.
Those shows sadly are usually horribly dumb, but I may take a look at this, if somebody has any details about this, to check what level of facts it had.
Question for the hand-to-hand self-defense experts, since this is something I've idly wondered for years: hypothetically, if you ended up in a real self-defense situation, were unarmed, and running wasn't a viable option (or you just didn't feel like it), what would you ideally rather be wearing? Counting accessories and especially footwear here.
(We'll say the other guy doesn't have a firearm, but may or may not have some other weapon.)
Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.
Good piece of stick is always great 'accessory' as well. :smallbiggrin:
I'm far from being an expert, but I'd say that confortable clothes would be favourite.. (as in, won't tear apart or impede movement when you try to knee someone in the groin or bend in "less than formal" ways. I don't know about you guys, but last time I had cause to spread my legs a little whilst wearing a suit.. let's just say that sensitive parts of me protested).. a few layers of clothes would be even better..as to lessen/spread the impact of blows..
no glasses, no ear-rings or other decorative accessories that might cause tearing/scratching/cutting of skin or sensitive organs..
then again, much depends on what your "plan" is for such a situation... whether you need something sturdy like a leather jacket or not...etc etc
does a rolled up magazine count as accessory?
I specifically said "unarmed." So, no sticks or rolled-up magazines. An accessory might be like, say for instance, a headband, wristband, maybe gloves or elbow/knee pads, though depending on usage that could really be pushing the definition of unarmed.
gotcha.. would safety footwear stretch it too? they tend to be steel-capped (steel or something equally sturdy)
edit:
then again.. it's kinda unlikely to walk around in places without there being anything that couldn't be converted in a weapon, in a pinch.. from a keyring to a belt with a heavy buckle, from a roll of mints to a rolled up sweater, pretty much everything can be used as a weapon..defensive or offensive as may be.. and finding something, anything, to take hold of and use to look like more of a menace than I'd look with empty hands would be my first course of action.
in my experience, looking like you know what you're doing can defuse a situation quicker than actually coming to blows.
Actually the number one sub-question on my mind is how steel-toed boots rank up with running shoes* and anything else. Even if we're talking about using kicks in a real fight for some reason, where I admit it would stretch the definition of "weapon."
As far as the "anything and everything can be a weapon," well, Iunno, pretend it slipped your mind in the adrenaline rush or something. Work with me here, I'm trying to eliminate "not fighting" and "using a weapon."
(*Aside from the bit where "the best defense is a good pair of running shoes." Note I explicitly eliminated that.)
I ride almost year round and always wear armor. It would be a handful. While my leg armor and jacket would protect/absorb some damage, I'm not sure about the trade off that it robs me of flexibility and speed. I'm not sure if I'd want it even if they had a knife. Even though I could absorb/deflect most slashes, the amount it decreased my speed would be detrimental.Quote:
Well, something like motorcycle armor would probably be more than handful, but it really depends on situation.
My Vans, loose jeans, and a t-shirt (like I normally wear) would probably be optimal for most situations.
Yes, but it wasn't a stated opinion. It was a guy getting kicked in the neck and passing out. Much better, visual evidence.
And again you miss the important detail there. You DO realize that the person I quote has an avatar of the Risen Martyr Prestige class from book of exalted deeds, right? Because if you think about it, risen martyr is a rather specific phrase to use for someone who is neither martyring themselves nor risen in any meaningful sense.
And I have. Whether you find it sufficient isn't important to me. This thread isn't about proof of concept, and again, if you actually care to find the information, it's there. And it's in my best interests to let you look, since you obviously won't take my word for it.Quote:
You are making a claim, you should back it up, it's pretty obvious.
Same reason it's relevant that the bottom tip of the sternum ossifies into bone at around age twenty five. Ignoring the difference between a specific structure and structures of the skull in general is sloppy.Quote:
Ok, so there are sutures, in the cranium, and they like... exist.
I'm not sure how should it be relevant to anything.
How about the reverse? Find for me an alternate reason a 12-6 elbow is illegal.
Carotid is anterior to the sternocleidomastoid muscle and is part of the anterior triangle that is almost universally regarded as "throat". So like I said, you answered it yourself. Which again, is apparent if you look at anatomy stuff. Skepticism is fine, but not for it's own sake.Quote:
Then what's your point.
Chops, open palm strikes and whatever are legal.
Striking the neck is perfectly legal as well. Throat and spine are banned, but those are smallish part of the neck, especially in more 'bulked up' individuals.
So 'cartoid strike' or anything similar, is again, perfectly legal.
So chops to the neck are perfectly legal.
Can't state it more simply.
Well, in such case everyone can be left with their own opinion, I guess. :smallbiggrin:
Personally I can't find much about it, save silly YT videos.
It's supposedly illegal because some oaf had seen some guy breaking ice blocks with 12-6 elbows or whatever. That's the legend at least.Quote:
Same reason it's relevant that the bottom tip of the sternum ossifies into bone at around age twenty five. Ignoring the difference between a specific structure and structures of the skull in general is sloppy.
How about the reverse? Find for me an alternate reason a 12-6 elbow is illegal.
Anyway, this rule doesn't have any sense, there's really nothing inherently more dangerous about "12-6" elbow compared to any other elbow.
The very angle being set in stone, instead being dependent on fighters position makes it pointless.
As far as sternum goes - it's a change the topic, without real connection to the the previous one. "Sloppiness" doesn't seem fair nor relevant from that reason. :smallconfused:
Sternum ossification isn't relevant here either.
The point is finding any proof of elbow strike being able to produce more serious damage to actual neuron-cranial structure (aside from the back of the head/spine), than knees, for example.
Muay Thai rules fully allow such attack, and ruination of knees and legs in general 'traditionally' stays the worst injury, ending careers etc.
From around 6:30
Well, I guess it depends on definition of 'throat' then.Quote:
Carotid is anterior to the sternocleidomastoid muscle and is part of the anterior triangle that is almost universally regarded as "throat". So like I said, you answered it yourself. Which again, is apparent if you look at anatomy stuff. Skepticism is fine, but not for it's own sake.
It's ('throat') not actually defined in Unified MMA rules in USA, so actual precedence is in effect I guess. And I've never seen anyone penalised for strikes to sternocleidomastoid, or kinda "front-side but not quite the throat".
When my daughter was 11 years old and the new kid in school she was attacked by 6 girls just outside the school. Luckily a man from a business across the street came over and broke it up. We then put her in Tai Kwon Do. She did not want to go but promised us she would for one month. After a week of going to classes she was a different person. Now many years later she is a second degree black belt and was an instructor for awhile. We went to a lot of tournaments over the years and in 1998 she came in 4th in the USA. First place was a beautiful little Korean girl who was magnificent. After many years of training she is very independent and especially in this world today confident of her safety and always is aware of what is around her. :smalleek:
So... the best prepared man is a motorcyclist who either plays baseball or practices kendo so he can have a bat or bokken ready at any time with reason? :smallamused:
By the way, can wearing lenses be a bad idea in a fight? I wear glasses and would obviously take them off when going practicing (and if possible before getting into a fight; "here, hold my glasses for me"), but I've thought about it for ages to get lenses instead. Not so much for practical reasons other than that they're easier to keep clean, it's mainly for aesthetic reasons, but considering glasses came up here, figured I should ask.
Martial arts: it won't make you a fighting master, but with the confidence you gain from it, you won't need to be. :smallbiggrin:
I prefer to wear contacts while sparring or fighting. You have slightly better peripheral vision, and you don't have to worry about your glasses breaking.
(Of course, the darn glasses place lost the order for my contacts three months ago and they've been avoiding my calls for a while. But I'm going in tomorrow.)