Unless the Tau decide to quietly sterilize your entire population through your drinking water or something.
Yeah, I thought that was stupid too - a needless throw-in to make Tau as grimdark as everything else.
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Congrats, the very point of the Culture
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Your head.
Firstly: Bull. Huxley obviously didn't study sociology, because a society dependent on such a caste system is dead in the water. All it needs is a single malfunction in the soma plants that take long enough to fix that the stores of the stuff run out for a significant population-a storm may be the cause-or a glitch in the cloning process, and the whole system gains a fault that it cannot acclimate to, and volia-farewell BNW, glad to see you go.
Secondly: The Culture is a society that views ubermenschen and loners as a perfectly normal and praised part of their society, so the parallels are already shaky. Also, they prize individuality and drive-they simply think of everything as a hobby, so both raw decadence and SCIENCE! are both pleasures to be pursued. This is quite unlike BNW, which actively strikes against noncomformity-that's why the exiles are actively denied the pleasures of the government, whereas the Culture gives them thirty acres and a ship, as it were. The Culture has no restrictions, the nation in BNW is built on them. The Culture is a socially-mobile republic, the BNW is a caste-mandated dictatorship.
Ultimately, the Culture would find such a world both utterly abhorrent and unsettling similar what would happen if they went wrong at some point in their past.
Playing Devil's Advocate here:
That's not what he said. He said that in universe the Culture is a utopia and unless you are a fascist money-loving power junkie, or to put it another way, the only way you can be happy is if others are miserable, then you'll be happy. Why wouldn't you be? And that he would be happy to live in the Culture.
Bah! That's nothing but Imperial Propaganda :smalltongue:
More seriously I don't think that actually has been added in. Unless it's in the fluff of the new rulebook. Otherwise it remains mostly rumors and a fan-theory.
Yeah, the Tau humans do have a nice setup. With newer fluff though, aren't the Tau a little indoctrination-happy? Not that the Imperium isn't, of course.
And yeah, the Culture has it better than the 40k universe. However, it seems much less exciting, and is certainly not without it's flaws.
I've yet to hear what the alternative highest purpose of humanity is, if not doing whatever we want and choosing whatever purpose we wish?
Ah, from an earlier post
You say you wouldn't be happy because the Minds are basically better then you in every way correct? But from what Tyndmyr has said you can augment yourself til you are a Mind. Therefore you would be happy!
Really the two of us should read at least one of these books. Off to the library! :smallcool:
Nope, even accounting for that. Which says a lot about 40k and something about me.
I *believe* it happened in one of the video games. But excepting where they originate the franchise I tend to treat video games as very low in canonical considerations.
As long as you realize that "excitement" is overrated. Or rather what is exciting isn't reflected where it sometimes is thought it is. War is not "exciting" when its you being actually shot at or at least not enough to compensate for the negative traits of it.... and that in between 95/100 times its utterly boring while you do basic maintenance/drills endlessly and wait for something to happen.
I think most people at the end of the day find their desire for excitement is completely fulfill-able via more ostensibly frivolous activities. Sports anyone? Video games? Hunting, fishing, camping or anything you'd shop at Bass Pro Shops for? I find internet arguments perversely entertaining personally.
So, as you yourself mentioned, people can do all of that in the Culture. Again as you yourself mentioned, the real reason you're dissatisfied is that people aren't the best at it.
It's at least canon that humans can be equal to Minds in military strategy. Rare, genius humans, but still. It's also canon that people can augment their skills, intellect or any other attribute to the level of a Mind if they so choose. And it's already fact IRL that other people are going to be better than you at pretty much any field if they so choose, unless you happen to be the single best human being at something, which is exceptionally unlikely.
If the Minds were a product of natural evolution from a human brain, would that make them better? Or if they just were biological in nature, but otherwise the same? How about if the Minds were simply the most intelligent, genius human beings picked from a massive population at birth and brought up to lead? But the actual society would otherwise be exactly the same, as would the capabilities of the Minds in relation to most people?
Really? That's awful writing :smallyuk:
If a Mind has so much spare capacity that it uses the vast majority of its abilities on simulating hypothetical dimensions for fun, how can they possibly be inferior to meat that has a hard time understand the world around it? War, of all things, is best left to machines as far as strategy and even tactics go. Hell, a Mind should be able to simulate every possible state of a war (and several impossible ones!) if it can otherwise simulate entire ships full of people for realistic interaction.
What next? Are there genius people out there who are equal to minds when it comes to arithmetic? Or identifying prime numbers? :smallsigh:
@Forum Explorer -- Again, I'd worry about losing my Humanity if I were "upgraded" to being a God-like Mind. Sure, it'd be fun to be on top but that is hardly a good criteria for determining whether a society is good or virtuous.
What is Humanity? Why would you lose it by become smarter?
And it isn't about being on top. It's about being smart enough to be able to comprehend the big questions so that you can actually learn new things.
Besides a society being 'good' or 'virtuous' is another issue that we have not yet tackled. To start what are your definitions of those two things?
Ehhh. The claim isn't that the human is as smart as a mind. The claim is that a human can comprehend and think on a level where they come up with similar *results*.Quote:
Really? That's awful writing
The premise is that there is a "right answer". Or at least, there is an answer that can be arrived at as optimal by sufficiently advanced intelligences, and that there are some humans good enough at warfare and tactics to be making almost identical decisions to minds even when faced with the hypercomplex problems of galactic scale warfare between post scarcity societies. If you can come up with the right answers, and you're all looking at the same questions, it doesn't matter if the other guy is smarter. He isn't going to be any more right.
The whole point of the setting is that it is grimdark (and there is a lot of war.)
The idea of a faction who are unremittingly and uncomplicatedly the good guys just seems to be missing the point, really. I'm sure it's not a wild guess to say this is why some people have and/or had a problem with the Tau.
I'm not really sure where I stand on the Culture. There are things about it that make me uncomfortable, but likewise it is a Utopia and the average quality of life is pretty amazing.
I haven't read the books though, so I don't really have enough familiarity to go any further on the subject.
Seeing as the entire point of the Overman is someone who rejects slave morality and epitomizes the Will to Power, I somewhat doubt the Culture would have much room for a genuine Overman. Without the ability to conquer or achieve in any meaningful way, and with a value system which is practically the definition of the Last Man, the Culture in fact seems like the complete antithesis of the idea of the Overman.
Unless you're saying the Minds themselves are the Overmen, which might be plausible. Their use of unearthly illusory rewards (simulations) for their slaves and voluntary acceptance of humility kind of jives with the concept, but their capabilities willingness to take action to achieve their goals and refusal to sublime fit the mold a lot more. Still I seriously doubt it.
That is the problem! That is exactly the issue here!
If everything is reduced to nihilistic pursuit of pleasure, if there is no meaning to your actions and you have no chance to express your Will to Power, that is what the Last Man is.
If you think that's a good thing, well, we have a somewhat impassable philosophical chasm in between us.
Oh the Tau could be the villains in any other setting without any extra help. Just that (aside from the Eldar) its pretty impossible to conceive of peace with any other faction, even if the Imperium would make peace. The conflict between the Imperium and the Tau is inherently less... gothic... then others since it leaves humanity with just xenophobia.
And people assuredly do have an issue with that.
See, I always thought it made the setting a little better with them around, in a 'can't have shadows without light' sort of way - having the Tau around as the closest thing the setting had to 'good guys', even if they were still mildly racist space commies, only helped emphasize how rotten the rest of the universe was - and in reverse, seeing the universe as a whole just made it more obvious how incredibly screwed the Tau were in the grand scope of things. Turning the Greater Good philosophy into a sham front for genocide devalued them into just another generic bunch of nasty xenos.
Or maybe it's because I play a Guard mechanized regiment modeled and painted as Tau human auxiliaries....not sure.:smallbiggrin:
There being no good guys always seemed the point to me. The Imperium being dark, twisted and merciless enough to be the villain in other settings, but being so at least partly because they had to be. Inserting a faction of scientific advance, friendship and light into the setting does make the darkness of the setting darker, but when the selling point was previously that it was a greyscale mishmash of different factions doing occaisionally horrible things to survive, that doesn't seem like anything other than a radical change.
To amend the phrase, can't have shadows without light. But light creates shadows.
If the Tau are greyscale, with secret atrocities or existing soley as part of some other more powerful factions diabolical plans, then they can exist quite happily alongside the existing factions. But if they really are everything they were said to be at first, genuinely nice, interested only in the greater good, with technology surpassing their foes and immune to the corrupting influence of the warp then to a large degree they undermine the existing factions.
I suppose there is a third option to reconsile the two without turning the previously grey factions into mere darkside villains. Play up the small size and naivety, with the young Tau Empire facing the horrors of the setting and having to either compromise on their ideals or deal with the horrifying consequences. That's not the direction GW is taking though, far as I see.
There are a number of ascended civilisations/beings that are more powerful than the Culture. They mostly spend their time doing whatever ascended beings do but some of them don't approve of the Culture, which is when the Culture has to ask other ascended civilisations/beings to intercede nicely on their behalf so they don't get wiped off the face of the universe.
In more detail, the Excession, which the Culture has classed as an Outside Context Problem.
The best analogy I can think of, is the Romans and Pompeii eruption - they have virtually no frame of reference of what it is or how to deal with it.
Please go and read one of the books and give it a fair try - you have a lot of misconceptions about the series that would be cleared up quite quickly.
If you still find it repulsive, then that's fair enough; at least you're making an informed decision.
Personally, I think you're so opposed to the Culture because you don't like the idea of machine Minds replacing organic beings as rulers (your placing of mortal beings in charge of planets/orbitals/spheres is a prime example).
Suppose for sake of argument, I replaced 'machine' with 'ethnic minority' and you'd get an idea of how ridiculous and biased your concerns would sound to your average Culture citizen.
I am not accusing you of anything, just highlighting how ridiculous your arguments and objections would sound.
With regard to the potential 'loss of humanity' when undergoing the conversion to a Mind, the brain is a set of neurons and synaptic pathways connected in a particular pattern.
Given sufficiently advanced technology, it would be reasonable to assume that this pattern could be perfectly copied and hence digitised as data.
Any perceived loss of 'humanity' would be most likely due to the personal attachment of an intangible value or force to your mind, more commonly called a 'soul'.
Board rules prevent me from elaborating further, but I would disagree with you on this concept.
Eh see, while that's probably part of Oracle's reasoning, I don't think it's all of it. Oracle was very careful to mention ridiculously short lifespans (not just terms, lifespans!) for politicians. I think Oracle believes that Humanity is fundamentally tied to Mortality. Which...means there aren't really any legitimately Human people in the Culture anyway, citizen or Mind.
Okay, let's define nihilist, shall we? Or more accurately, moral nihilism, which is what you seem to be using.
And for a twofer, how about existential nihilism?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia sez
This is not the Culture. The Culture has a very strong sense of morality and belief in the meaning of life. They just don't claim that their way of life is better than any other to the point of imposing it. That is, in fact, political nihilism. The good kind, in other words, because that allows for things like free will and national sovereignty.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Same
So...nihilistic?
Hell no. They actually look for meaning in life, hence, they are by definition, not nihilistic.
Also, the Last Man is a parasite, not a freeloader. A true nihilist, who doesn't have any meaning or desire any, with no contribution to society. Again, not the Culture. Not hardly. There's a reason why organisations like Special Circumstances exist. And the reason that, uh, the Culture hasn't dissolved yet, since all rules are actually social conventions and obligations.
It sounds like you'd side with the Peace Faction. They are the large minority that split from the Culture and gave up the Culture's foreign policy around the start of the Idiran war. It was, to some degree, that war that cemented the Culture's policy of interference. If it makes you feel any better about it, the Minds believe they can prove that, overall, their interference is a positive gain. Also, the Minds and people of SC come across as the most critical of their own interference.
The decision to go to war was one of the Big Decisions that went to a vote of everyone in the Culture. That's everyone, Minds, Drones, and organic life forms. Even after they lost, a big minority split off as the Peace Faction, and other smaller factions left then and leave all the time.
I would recommend Look to Windward as perhaps the best book for getting a handle on everyday life in the Culture. It's very introspective, and covers some things like the meaning of artistic expression and individual contribution within the Culture.
Jeez you go out and have a life for a few hours ( ok I went to a Roleplaying game) and the debate whizzes past you :smallsmile:
So just to say
Again not 'robot overlords'. Minds do not 'dragoon' people into SC ( at least in the 8 novels I've read). People have to work damn hard to get into SC on the grounds if you're messing with other civilizations you should have the smartest and best people doing it
Actually, to play devil's advocate here:
(player of games spoiler)
SpoilerGurgeh was totally dragooned into joining SC, they preyed on his pride and used that to blackmail him. Did he end up a better person for it? Sure, but he ws still nearly press gagned into service
And I had a post on how Water Bear seems to confuse Nietzche and Rand, but the bords ate it and I don't feel like writing it after Leliel did it much better, so let's just say I agree with leliel.
Also, to "get" the culture, you have to accept that, at least in that universe (yeah forum rules loopholes:smallwink:), the soul is not a thing, suffering is not the lot of Man, dying before you've accomplished everything you want to/are bored is bad, and machines are just as sentient as organics. Most of the drones in the culture are what they call 1:1 intelligences, they are roughly as smart and sentient as the organic citizens of the culture, they have emotions, everything, only they have metal bodies.
AArgh ! Ages since I read the book. Wasn't he blackmailed by his drone friend without SC's knowledge ?
If you understand where he's apparently arguing from, it actually makes internal sense. You see, it's a circular argument; he sees the Culture's humans as meatpuppets of the Minds, therefore anything the humans do is a priori dictated by the Minds, since they are puppets. Therefore, if a human does something he is dragooned into it by the Minds since the Minds control the humans.
Which is not the case, but nine pages hasn't gotten that across, so I doubt more is going to do the trick.