Relationship Woes and Advice 25: Now with extra Valentine

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Originally Posted by Jon_Dahl

I'm just trying to analyze here why is it so hard for me to find date.

One thing that I've noticed is that women find me sulking. My previous girlfriends have sometimes asked me "What's wrong?" or "I guess you didn't like that all, right?", even though I haven't said anything to indicate that I was unhappy. With my friends' girlfriends it's been the same. They say that I'm clearly not enjoying myself when we hang out together. Once my female colleague had noticed me walking in the city centre and said that I looked like I was going to punch the next person I meet. I don't really understand this. I'm a bit introverted and quiet, but why do people always take that as a sign of discontent or hostility.

What am I supposed to do about this?

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Oh I know how that feels! :smallbiggrin:
For me, it came down to the fact that my "normal" expression has been described as that of an angry bouncer. Which seems to be true, seeing how if I go to a nightclub and I happen to stay on the side for a moment I regularly get approached by people thinking I'm the bouncer.
For me, it's something I never really solved. Unless I'm really enojoying myself, my expression reverts to what most people associate with negative emotions and fighting pits. When I'm in the company of friends just hanging out I try to compensate for this by consciously bending my mouth to form a permanent smile regardless of the situation, which seems to help even if it does make me feel a bit stupid.

If we are talking about dating specifically, I think the "smile" suggestion applies as well, but if I may, you should also try to understand why you have troubles showing that you are happy with a woman. Let me elaborate.
You see, my fighting face apparently goes away very quickly whenever I'm in the company of women, because ever since I started realizing that they tend to like me, I feel comfortable around them, I have fun and they have fun. So apparently I'm alway smiling, but it comes naturally and I don't even realize it.
What I'm saying is that maybe there is something blocking you from enjoying a date. Maybe self esteem issues? If so you could try working on that first, or maybe try some different kinds of dating that make you feel more comfortable and prone to having fun, how about that? You know, things that make you feel excited and pumped instead of maybe nervous and anxious.
That's my 2 cents on the matter, at least. :smallsmile:

Although it's a comedy piece, Bitchy Resting Face has at least one finger on something approaching truth. That's where the comedy comes from, I'm given to understand.

Learning to smile and above all smile well is a useful thing at times. Although it's generally less helpful to men because men smiling isn't particularly attractive except in certain contexts, but it still can be a way to put people at ease. It probably gets me read as smarmy, but I tend to default to a smirk when at parties(at least up to the point where I've hit my limit for the night, which is when smiling is an uncontrolled reflex), which at the very least seems to stave off people thinking I'm sad or angry or otherwise displeased and lends itself to an air of approachability since people ask me what's wrong if I get tired enough that I go to my actual resting face rather than my "this is me outside and around people" face.

Granted, part of the reason I have that kind of face in the first place is because I grew up believing that I was an introvert and my mother was obsessed with telling me to smile whenever I met new people or were being social or outside in a context where I was meant to "see and be seen."

Perhaps changing one's body language from "sulking" to "brooding" might be suitably Byronic, depending upon one's target audience.

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Originally Posted by Coidzor

Perhaps changing one's body language from "sulking" to "brooding" might be suitably Byronic, depending upon one's target audience.

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I have heard/read [citation needed] that smiling actually makes you appear less (sexually) attractive, and that the brooding Byronic (Mr Darcy-esque?) mien is a bonus. The trick, as you say, is pulling that off while also not appearing overtly hostile, and putting people off approaching you in the first place. It also probably helps if you're naturally very good-looking.

(Although, having said that, while you can't do much about bone structure, you can change other things about your appearance to make yourself look more attractive. Dressing well is a major plus, and if you get it right should also help with the "Byronic" thing).

Perhaps practise smouldering in the mirror, hinting at some deep inward torture and indescribable rage, looking mysterious, dark and edgy but not miserable or unfriendly. Then practise transitioning from that into a warm smile. It's got to be worth a try, right?

What's the worst that could happen from ingesting amateur acting advice and boning up on facial expressions and body language?

...

Actually, don't answer that.

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Originally Posted by Aedilred

I have heard/read [citation needed] that smiling actually makes you appear less (sexually) attractive, and that the brooding Byronic (Mr Darcy-esque?) mien is a bonus. The trick, as you say, is pulling that off while also not appearing overtly hostile, and putting people off approaching you in the first place. It also probably helps if you're naturally very good-looking.

(Although, having said that, while you can't do much about bone structure, you can change other things about your appearance to make yourself look more attractive. Dressing well is a major plus, and if you get it right should also help with the "Byronic" thing).

Perhaps practise smouldering in the mirror, hinting at some deep inward torture and indescribable rage, looking mysterious, dark and edgy but not miserable or unfriendly. Then practise transitioning from that into a warm smile. It's got to be worth a try, right?

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The important question here isn't "what is a majority / significant portion / weird proto-girl into?", but "what is the type of girl I want into?"

Think of it like... selling a product (you) to a target group (potential girlfriends). What does your type like? Mr Darcy? Manic Pixie Dream Guys? Benedict Cumberbatch? James Bond? Hopefully, once you've figured that out, you'll only have to make slight adjustments to your presentation. If you find yourself in need of a personality overhaul... maybe consider going for a different type of girl.

It's not very concrete advice, since it's so personal, but I've found it really helpful in regards to pretty much any relationship, romantic or otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

The important question here isn't "what is a majority / significant portion / weird proto-girl into?", but "what is the type of girl I want into?"

Think of it like... selling a product (you) to a target group (potential girlfriends). What does your type like? Mr Darcy? Manic Pixie Dream Guys? Benedict Cumberbatch? James Bond? Hopefully, once you've figured that out, you'll only have to make slight adjustments to your presentation. If you find yourself in need of a personality overhaul... maybe consider going for a different type of girl.

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That's not even a category. Thankfully. Also, you managed to make me actively thankful for Male Privilege by even giving voice the idea of such a thing.

Spot on about identifying one's target audience though.

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

What does your type like? Mr Darcy? ...James Bond?

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Well, every woman I've ever spoken to on the subject has named those two on their list of "yes, no questions asked". They've usually volunteered the names themselves. (In fact, as far as Bond goes, even a few straight men have... but that's off the point). But then that probably says more about the women I hang around with (and by extension, me) than about women in general.

That seems rather odd and vaguely self-defeating, given the tendency of James Bond's romantic interest at any given point in time to either die or be replaced by the next one in short order...

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Originally Posted by Themrys

@Driderman: Well, in my case, my personality is much less appealing than my looks (which are quite okay, but I don't care to improve them with make up, so ... ), but it feels good to have asked, anyway.

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But at least you've got your self-confidence going for you... :smalltongue:

So, I attended Sakura-Con, and it contained the largest concentration of beautiful women who also had a good chance of being interesting that I've ever noticed. However, the population of same in the activity areas that involved talking to strangers was woefully underrepresented. Ergo, I did not find an excuse to attempt to seduce any with my tremendous wit and charm.

This is not the ideal state of affairs; that is, it was a state of no affairs at all. What should I try next time? Striking up conversations with people out of the blue, in the middle of the public spaces, possibly using knowledge of the subject matter referenced in the relevant cosplay as a context? Would having an elaborate costume be important to the success of such a tactic?

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Originally Posted by Foxwarrior

Would having an elaborate costume be important to the success of such a tactic?

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I would hope so, given that I'm in the process of making one partially for the same reason (and partially just because I enjoy it too, of course). :smalltongue:

Costumes are an easy conversation starter. Assuming one of those beautiful women is dressed for the occasion, start a conversation about her costume. Tell her it looks nice or ask how she made a certain part. If you're familiar with what the costume is from, you can steer the conversation towards that and if not, you can ask.

You could also talk about the panels at the con. Either ones you're looking forward to or one that just ended if you and the girl were both present. In short, yes. Strike up conversations out of the blue if someone catches your eye. As you said yourself, a convention is likely to have the best concentration of people with similar interests, so there's plenty you can talk about without it being awkward.



Since I sorta brought it up already, here's my own situation. I'll be attending a convention next month. While preparing for it, I started thinking about girl I'm interested in who will be there. I know her from a different convention and she had mentioned that she planned on going to the upcoming one. The last time I saw her (a few months back at the last con I went to), we spent a bit of time together and I really enjoyed it. I thought I felt a connection so I decided to ask her out. She declined and explained that because of her situation with school and family and the like, she didn't think it was a good time to start seeing someone. She also assured me that she thought I seemed like a really nice guy, which would've instantly set off every red flag for "politely letting me down" if she hadn't also said that if it had been a year later when I asked and she had things a bit more in hand, she probably would've said yes. So... Because of that, there's a bit of hope that I can't help but cling to. I also asked if we could keep in contact, but she thought that wasn't for the best since she'd feel like she was leading me on and didn't want me reading into things and thinking it meant something when she wasn't in a position to give it a try (and to be fair... She's probably right and that probably would've happened).

What I'm wondering is, if I do run into her, should I go for it again, and if so, is there anything I can do that would make her more likely to say yes this time? There's bound to be plenty of other girls there, so even if I don't see her or if I do and she declines, it's not like there won't be other options. Still, I can't help but prefer the thought of a girl I know a bit about and like what I do know over trying to connect with a wildcard who I only just met. Being single sucks and I'm tired of it, so I'd like to think I'll be able to do something about it while I'm there (and that my overdone attempts at peacocking with my costume won't be for nothing)

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Originally Posted by Comrade

That seems rather odd and vaguely self-defeating, given the tendency of James Bond's romantic interest at any given point in time to either die or be replaced by the next one in short order...

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Okay, so my examples were bad examples :smalltongue:

PSA: Don't actually look at people's fictional crushes. Those are weird and often scary (I'm looking at you, Hannibal fangirls...). Look at who they go for in real life. A good rule of thumb is that people tend to go for someone like themself. So the crazy, fun-loving girl will go for the party lion, and the nerdy, bookish girl will go for the guy who'll sit and read with her for hours*. Stuff like that. But again, it depends a lot, and you only get your answer by actually looking around.


* Incidentally, how does one find such a person? I'm asking for, uh... science.

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

Okay, so my examples were bad examples :smalltongue:

PSA: Don't actually look at people's fictional crushes. Those are weird and often scary (I'm looking at you, Hannibal fangirls...). Look at who they go for in real life. A good rule of thumb is that people tend to go for someone like themself. So the crazy, fun-loving girl will go for the party lion, and the nerdy, bookish girl will go for the guy who'll sit and read with her for hours*. Stuff like that. But again, it depends a lot, and you only get your answer by actually looking around.


* Incidentally, how does one find such a person? I'm asking for, uh... science.

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That's kinda the problem with bookish types, there are few forums for meeting such people aside from the obvious, online. Even when you do run into someone, it's hardly the thing that first stands out in a person, that they like to read. Unless you happen to catch someone reading somewhere, but that's easier said than done.

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Originally Posted by Aedilred

Well, every woman I've ever spoken to on the subject has named those two on their list of "yes, no questions asked". They've usually volunteered the names themselves. (In fact, as far as Bond goes, even a few straight men have... but that's off the point). But then that probably says more about the women I hang around with (and by extension, me) than about women in general.

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Mr Darcy I can understand, but why Bond?

@Driderman: Yup. My self-confidence is irresistible. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Themrys

Mr Darcy I can understand, but why Bond?

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No idea. I've only ever heard straight guys gush about him :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

* Incidentally, how does one find such a person? I'm asking for, uh... science.

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If you ever get the answer to that one I would really like to know. For science, of course.:smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

* Incidentally, how does one find such a person? I'm asking for, uh... science.

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No idea. The obvious suggestion would be a library, where if you see other people there a couple of times (and, unlike me, you're not terribly British about it) you can then start a conversation with them. But these days non-academic libraries don't seem to see as much use as once they did, with people mostly reading in their own homes or whatever.

The other problem of course is that even if you do see someone reading in public on a sunny day or whatever they might not welcome you disturbing them. It also means you're having to judge people by what they're reading - but that might not be a bad thing...

Yeah, I have no idea really. It is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Themrys

Mr Darcy I can understand, but why Bond?

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*shrug* Well, I suppose he's good-looking, well-dressed, confident, has a sense of adventure and has led an interesting life, he's at least reasonably intelligent, and has a sense of humour even if at certain points in his career he mostly expresses it through awful puns. I suppose it depends what you're looking for. You probably wouldn't want to marry Bond, of course, but he'd probably be great fun for a casual fling (so long as you first make sure he's not actually on a mission right now, because then you have about a 50% chance of being murdered, obviously.)

That's the film version of Bond, of course. I wouldn't recommend any woman going anywhere near the book version.

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Originally Posted by Aedilred

*shrug* Well, I suppose he's good-looking, well-dressed, confident, has a sense of adventure and has led an interesting life, he's at least reasonably intelligent, and has a sense of humour even if at certain points in his career he mostly expresses it through awful puns. I suppose it depends what you're looking for. You probably wouldn't want to marry Bond, of course, but he'd probably be great fun for a casual fling (so long as you first make sure he's not actually on a mission right now, because then you have about a 50% chance of being murdered, obviously.)

That's the film version of Bond, of course. I wouldn't recommend any woman going anywhere near the book version.

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Even the film version of Bond has, if I recall correctly, done things that should warn every woman to not come too close to him.

Bond pretty much is the stereotypical 'bad ass' cliché, over the top courageous, confident, capable, rugged, good/brilliant at about everything he ever attempts.

So it's nothing weird that he would be considered attractive, especially in 'many man' way, and his theoretical offspring would have quite large chance of passing genes further, as long as they don't do the same job as dad. :smalltongue:

No matter what unpleasant things he tends to do, powerful people are often unpleasant, yet attractive.

But he's completely exaggerated, strongly tongue in cheek fiction anyway, so it's hard to use him as any real example.

Needless to say, actual special agents are probably quite different. :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

* Incidentally, how does one find such a person? I'm asking for, uh... science.

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Start reviewing books online, and charm them with your insight and wit.

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Originally Posted by Jallorn

Start reviewing books online, and charm them with your insight and wit.

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Could work. It's always very interesting to know how a potential mate views the favourite or most hated books.


Part of why my most recent date was so hilariously bad was that the guy had a different taste in books and those we both liked he liked for different reasons.
We only agreed that Fifty Shades of Grey is horribly bad, but had different reasons for why. We didn't even get to discuss Jane Austen, but I think he prefers the Brontes.

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Originally Posted by Themrys

Mr Darcy I can understand, but why Bond?

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Not seeing the forest for the trees. Also, people are stupid, it's the occasional individual that proves the exception to the rule.

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Originally Posted by Themrys

Even the film version of Bond has, if I recall correctly, done things that should warn every woman to not come too close to him.

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See above, also, glossing over due to genre conventions. Same principle that overlooks social awkwardness in characters but not in real life or that leads to people declaring that an obviously despicable character is actually laudable.

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Originally Posted by Glass Mouse

* Incidentally, how does one find such a person? I'm asking for, uh... science.

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I don't know how well it would work for women but what I did was based on this very idea. Also the fact I REALLY like to read. Read in public. No it really is that simple. I really like reading in bars. And in cafe's. . . The key is to sit in the middle of things, as people who want to be left alone will tend to pull to a corner for privacy. Try to get to any bar where they take away the bar-stools as the night goes on early to get a seat there (as it is also often the best lit place after that time). . . people who like readers may well approach and just be open and friendly about it. Make a regular of yourself and the locals will feel more comfortable interrupting you as well.

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Originally Posted by Themrys

Part of why my most recent date was so hilariously bad was that the guy had a different taste in books and those we both liked he liked for different reasons.
We only agreed that Fifty Shades of Grey is horribly bad, but had different reasons for why. We didn't even get to discuss Jane Austen, but I think he prefers the Brontes.

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I have to say, I absolutely love that in people I spend time with. Allows me to expand my horizons, understand different viewpoints, creates an engaging basis for conversation and ensure we'll never run out of things to talk about while also paradoxically giving us something shared (the disagreements) that gives us a reason to be together. But my view of good interpersonal relationships might be somewhat unorthodox so of course, there's no reason to try and agree with me unless you already do so. All I know is, I find relationships where we agree with everything horribly boring what comes to engaging discussion and eventually we'll run out of topics we share an interest in that we can talk about in an engaging manner.

As an example, I currently have something of a problem with one of my (non-romantic) friends, who often asks me to just talk with her (she's the type that relishes in deep discussions) but after trading regards we can only talk about some topic that has only recently become relevant (and since she doesn't care about politics nor about many fields of science, newly relevant stuff is rare); everything else we've already talked through so thoroughly (and agreed about almost everything) that we simply have no reason to talk about them anymore. We know each others' opinions extremely well, much because we share so many of them, so we just haven't really had anything to talk about for a long while. Which is a real pity because talking with her about something substantial she's interested in is a blast. If we only had disagreements, we could actually argue and adjust our viewpoints but our thinking is too similar.

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Originally Posted by sktarq

I don't know how well it would work for women but what I did was based on this very idea. Also the fact I REALLY like to read. Read in public. No it really is that simple. I really like reading in bars. And in cafe's. . . The key is to sit in the middle of things, as people who want to be left alone will tend to pull to a corner for privacy. Try to get to any bar where they take away the bar-stools as the night goes on early to get a seat there (as it is also often the best lit place after that time). . . people who like readers may well approach and just be open and friendly about it. Make a regular of yourself and the locals will feel more comfortable interrupting you as well.

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Definitely running counter to the prevailing cultural notion that women are reading in those places precisely because they don't want to interact with anyone, especially men, so they'll be extra offended if they're approached while doing so though.

Hey, I've never been on this part of the forums before, but I have a quick question and you folks seem to know what you're talking about. Hope you don't mind :smallsmile:

I hear a fair bit about how in relationships (and social situations in general) it's always best to be confident, and that shyness and nervousness usually come across as unappealing and/or creepy. My question is, if one suspects that a prospective romantic interest finds them attractive partly because they act somewhat shy and nervous, should that be taken as a bad sign? I used to think meeting a girl who found my awkwardness cute was the best I could hope for, but these days I've been feeling a lot more self-assured, and now said experience, while still nice, makes me worry a little that I'm not being taken seriously. That, combined with the sentiment I occasionally see about awkward-adorable not being a real thing and confidence being a prerequisite for attractiveness, has me a little uncomfortable. Any advice?

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

I have to say, I absolutely love that in people I spend time with. Allows me to expand my horizons, understand different viewpoints, creates an engaging basis for conversation and ensure we'll never run out of things to talk about while also paradoxically giving us something shared (the disagreements) that gives us a reason to be together. But my view of good interpersonal relationships might be somewhat unorthodox so of course, there's no reason to try and agree with me unless you already do so. All I know is, I find relationships where we agree with everything horribly boring what comes to engaging discussion and eventually we'll run out of topics we share an interest in that we can talk about in an engaging manner.

As an example, I currently have something of a problem with one of my (non-romantic) friends, who often asks me to just talk with her (she's the type that relishes in deep discussions) but after trading regards we can only talk about some topic that has only recently become relevant (and since she doesn't care about politics nor about many fields of science, newly relevant stuff is rare); everything else we've already talked through so thoroughly (and agreed about almost everything) that we simply have no reason to talk about them anymore. We know each others' opinions extremely well, much because we share so many of them, so we just haven't really had anything to talk about for a long while. Which is a real pity because talking with her about something substantial she's interested in is a blast. If we only had disagreements, we could actually argue and adjust our viewpoints but our thinking is too similar.

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You are a very strange person. I have a best friend with whom I agree on everything, and I like it that way. We talk less than we did at the beginning of our friendship, but that's okay.

Of course, there are differing opinions and there are differing opinions. I just say that if I hate a book because it's misogynistic, and the person I'm talking to does not think misogyny is even an existing problem and hates the book because the BDSM is not hardcore enough, then this person is not likely to become my friend.

@Amaril: I think it depends. I like shy people because I'm shy myself. Too much confidence scares me.
Then there are people who will look at a shy/nervous person the same way they would look at a little kitten, and think "aww, isn't it cutesy?" - and I think those people are the real problem.

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Originally Posted by Themrys

Of course, there are differing opinions and there are differing opinions. I just say that if I hate a book because it's misogynistic, and the person I'm talking to does not think misogyny is even an existing problem and hates the book because the BDSM is not hardcore enough, then this person is not likely to become my friend.

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That's less creative differences and more someone being a complete sleezebucket, now isn't it? :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Coidzor

That's less creative differences and more someone being a complete sleezebucket, now isn't it? :smalltongue:

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To be fair, he didn't really say that. He only hinted that he, as an expert on the topic, didn't like it, or something like this. It's just my interpretation. Since he told me that he doesn't like feminism, I think that interpretation is correct, since it's the only other accusation I have heard raised against Fifty Shades of Grey. (Well, apart from the fact that it's badly written)

I wouldn't call him sleazy, although he did talk about sex a lot. I rather got the impression that he's the kind of person who doesn't really think before talking and has no sense whatsoever of what is appropriate. (He's roughly my age and I did ask him out, so it didn't seem so very inappropriate. To me. But I know nothing about manners anyway.)

All in all, it was pretty funny. I don't think I have ever met (or at least gone one a date with) a person who had less in common with me than that guy. Unless all men are secretly like this and just hide it in order to impress me. That's what I'm worried about.

Thanks for the book geek answers, people. Seems like my best bet is, whenever I see a cute person, to whip out a book and start reading. That'll give results! :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Amaril

Hey, I've never been on this part of the forums before, but I have a quick question and you folks seem to know what you're talking about. Hope you don't mind :smallsmile:

I hear a fair bit about how in relationships (and social situations in general) it's always best to be confident, and that shyness and nervousness usually come across as unappealing and/or creepy. My question is, if one suspects that a prospective romantic interest finds them attractive partly because they act somewhat shy and nervous, should that be taken as a bad sign? I used to think meeting a girl who found my awkwardness cute was the best I could hope for, but these days I've been feeling a lot more self-assured, and now said experience, while still nice, makes me worry a little that I'm not being taken seriously. That, combined with the sentiment I occasionally see about awkward-adorable not being a real thing and confidence being a prerequisite for attractiveness, has me a little uncomfortable. Any advice?

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Off the top of my head, there are the following reasons someone might be attracted to shy people:

1. They see shy people as cutesy-adorable kittens.
2. They are shy themselves and just prefer a similar temperament in their partner.
3. They have low confidence themselves and want a non-threatening partner (not the same as above).
4. They are abusive pieces of crap looking for someone with low confidence who'll be an easy victim.
5. They are non-shy and looking for someone to balance them out. An anti-MPDG, if you will.
6. By some quirk of fate or upbringing, they've found themselves with an unexplained attraction to shyness independent of the above.

Some are problematic, but there are genuine, non-harmful reasons one might be attracted to shyness. I still tend to be iffy when I meet them, though. In my experience, most fall in category (1) or (3). I used to side-eye the (5) I know pretty hard, but he's getting married to a nice girl this summer, so...


Also, just to note: When people talk about confidence, they usually conflate it with extroversion. Which is not the same thing. It's just about being assured in yourself, not having anything to prove, and just generally being pleasant to be around (aka, not exuding nervousness at every corner). There's no need to go for "party lion" status :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Themrys

You are a very strange person. I have a best friend with whom I agree on everything, and I like it that way. We talk less than we did at the beginning of our friendship, but that's okay.

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That's not strange. I operate in much the same way as Eldariel. Not that I want people to always be contrary (I have a friend like that, and it's exhausting). But if you meet someone who shares most of your core values, but disagrees on application or details, and who notices different things, and who can challenge (and thus help you change or strengthen) your opinions and beliefs... in my opinion, you've struck friend gold.

Though yeah, especially when it comes to polarizing issues (like feminism), it's nice to have that one friend where you can just lean back and go "UGH, Fifty Shades of Grey!", and they'll completely know what you mean. Sometimes you do need a break.