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Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
So I'm new to pen and paper roleplaying games and am going to be joining a game of D&D 3.5. One of my friends directed me here for help getting started.
I've read through the different class pages and I want to hit things in the face, really hard, with a big weapon. I think this means I should be playing a barbarian. Can y'all give me some pointers on how to increase the amount of head choppin' I can do?
I have to be a non-evil alignment, I can use any book and Dragon Magazine, and we're starting at level 8. No race with LA +2 or more. I think that's if, if you want to know anything else just ask and I will try to find out.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to make full attacks on the charge. Pick up Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and a Valorous Greatsword or Greataxe. Go to town with charges.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
You can find Eladriel's barbarian handbook here.
Long story short. The power attack feat is the bread and butter of the barbarian, it lets you swap out accuracy for damage. Most barbarians choose to take feats to enhance their charge, using the alternate class feature from complete champion to get pounce(you can get a full attack at the end of a charge) and a bunch of other fun feats. Chargers are common and very good at doing stupid amounts of damage.
I'm a fan of tripper barbarians and shocktrooper barbarians. There's another alternate class feature in complete champion that grants you improve trip at level 2 with no prerequisite feats. The reasons barbarians aren't usually trippers is because it takes decent INT and DEX. The INT is for the prerequisite combat expertise, which sort of sucks and you probably don't have the stats for(13 INT with a barbarian is hard). Then you probably want decent DEX for combat reflexes to trip anything going by.
Much more common is the shocktrooper and building up power attack boosters. The shocktrooper feat lets you increase the damage of power attack by reducing your armor, not your accuracy. Also, leap attack lets you double your power attack damage if you jump before hand.
Can't do the whole subject justice, the handbook is very nice as a resource, and a fun read. Eladriel is great, you might see him around sometime.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
OK, not only do I want to smash peoples heads in but I want to protect the rest of the party at the same time. How can I do that? Busy reading that guide you linked, but it's a lot to absorb lol
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
If you want to protect the party, you want a control Barbarian. Look for something that is Large or can count as Large for Reach, then take a Reach weapon - guisarme or glaive are good, from what I recall? Also spiked chain, possibly. Pick up Improved Trip, Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and Thicket of Blades. Overall goal is to maximize your reach and the number of attacks of opportunity you can make per round, then use Improved Trip and Stand Still to keep them down and away from your allies.
It does take a bit more thought then the charger barb, but it's my personal favourite build :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Knock-down is also a nice feat to have if you're interested in protection. "(Str 15, Improved Trip, BAB +2) [SRD, D&D]: Great! Whenever you deal 10 or more damage to a target, you get a free trip attempt against them." That plus combat reflexes lets you keep jerks off your buddies.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
What if I want something more like Conan? He was pretty sneaky in general. Is there a rogue/assassin/thief class that mixes well with barbarians?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
The Control build will have naturally good Dex to power Combat Reflexes. Take a level in Rogue and the feat Able Learner to keep the sneaky skills in-class for your entire career. You won't be nearly as good as, say, a Shadowdancer, but you'll be quieter then most. The fact that you won't be wearing heavy armour helps too.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
I'm also noticing that barbarians seem to need a lot of feats but they don't in so far as I can tell get any more than the normal character. Is that right and if so, is there some sneaky way around it?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
I'm also noticing that barbarians seem to need a lot of feats but they don't in so far as I can tell get any more than the normal character. Is that right and if so, is there some sneaky way around it?
That's true, but you can always multiclass into Fighter for a couple of levels.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
What if I want something more like Conan? He was pretty sneaky in general. Is there a rogue/assassin/thief class that mixes well with barbarians?
Conan was totally a warblade with one factotum level and Able Learner. All skills as class skills. FOREVAR!
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
I'm also noticing that barbarians seem to need a lot of feats but they don't in so far as I can tell get any more than the normal character. Is that right and if so, is there some sneaky way around it?
Generally, multiclassing is one path. E.g. two levels of Fighter gets you two feats. Two levels of Monk can get you 3 (if you need Improved Unarmed Strike) and Martial Rogue can get you two; both get you the stealth skills you want in class too (though either option costs you 1 point of Base Attack Bonus making you slightly less accurate/hard hitting). Ranger is the last option that gets one less feat than the other options but has full BAB and skills. Also, the Wolf Totem Barbarian gets Improved Trip without prerequisites; that's again a way to skip one feat.
In addition, if you pick two Character Flaws (feel free to clarify with your DM and come up with your own ones; you prolly want to have some flaws anyways, though these FLAWS kinda have to be something serious) you can pick two extra feats in exchange. And of course, Human gets an extra feat, which help.
The other half is focusing. You don't want to do everything; to achieve the goals you want (lots of damage, control) all you need is:
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack (maybe Shock Trooper and Leap Attack; frankly those might not even be necessary if you have Pounce)
To achieve that you only need to pick Combat Reflexes and Power Attack as feats. Improved Trip is a free bonus from Wolf Totem Barbarian and you get a lot of damage from your basic Barbarian framework. The most damaging variant of Rage is Whirling Frenzy, which should also interest you.
It also goes better with the more controlled type of raging (you get Dodge-bonus to AC and all that) which would be to be expected from a Conan-like character. Early on you'll want to pick up Extra Rage, by the way, since you won't have enough Rage uses to use it in multiple encounters otherwise.
In short, I suggest a multiclassed Ranger 2/Barbarian or Martial Rogue 2/Barbarian (or Monk 2/Barbarian who's switched alignment after Monk-levels in case you want fisticuffs skills more than Rogue's extra skill points and Trapfinding), probably Human with Able Learner [Races of Destiny] (allows buying ranks in cross-class skills the same way you normally buy ranks in class skills), to get the feats and the skills you want for fighting and sneaking.
You want high Strength, Con & Dexterity and preferably some Int (for skill points) and Wis (for Will-saves and base values of Perception skills, Sense Motive, Survival & co.). If you want, you can also pick up the Trapkiller alternative class feature for disabling traps in case you want to be able to deal with traps too (or getting Trapfinding from Ranger or Rogue works too).
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
You said a friend pointed you here.
Ask that friend what optimization level their group plays at.
Without a target op level, almost all the advice you get will be targetted at high-op, which may not be appropriate to your group.
To-whit: even a mid level (6-11 ish level) ubercharger will dish out damage numbers that will anihilate anything that's at his CR.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
A quick text message has resulted in me being informed that:
"Tier 1 is banned but everything else is pushed as far as it can possibly go"
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
A quick text message has resulted in me being informed that:
"Tier 1 is banned but everything else is pushed as far as it can possibly go"
Oh he is so begging you to play a kobold paladin. :smallamused:
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Saying that you can push everything as much as you want is a pretty dangerous slippery slope (after all you can go Pun-Pun with almost every class) and to be honest it doesn't really answer the question as it doesn't narrow the op-level of the group.
For a general Op-level I would suggest Power Attack/Leap Attack for offense and combat reflexes/Knock Down for control. Grab a reach weapon (Glaive woukd be my suggestion) and go to town. Pretty standard and can be diales up or down depending on your group's needs (grab a couple more charge multiplier like a Valorous weapon if you need to dial up, power attack for less if you need to rein in yourself).
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
A quick text message has resulted in me being informed that:
"Tier 1 is banned but everything else is pushed as far as it can possibly go"
In that case, ubercharger all the way.
Once you've knocked out power attack, leap attack, improved bull-rush, and shocktrooper. You can do pretty much whatever you want with the rest of your build.
That's only 4 feats, as long as you take a two level dip into either fighter or feat rogue, you've got everything but shocktrooper by 3rd level. After taking 1 or 2 levels in barbarian, making sure to get pounce, able learner to keep the skill point spending stable, then maybe ranger (the CC non-spellcasting version) to make sure you have the necessary skill-points to spread around.
In D&D 3.5 you'll almost always want to multiclass to get the character you imagine.
If you just want to keep it simple, do it like this.
Factotum 1/ Barbarian 1/ fighter 1/ Barbarian +2/ fighter +1/ barbarian +X. In this case X is however many levels the campaign lasts after that point.
Feats go:
1) Able learner, (feat of choice)
3)Power attack, Imp Bull-rush
6)Leap attack, Shocktrooper
You can swap that first fighter level and the two barb levels after around however you want as long as you get the first barbarian level in asap, being sure to get pounce, and the second fighter level at six.
Congratulations, you have a bare-bones ubercharger with all skills as class skills.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
ok lol so a little more texting has gotten the info that there was a little hyperbole and that this pun-pun and things like it are banned as well, but that anything that's got a lot of multiclassing, weird race combos, etc. is ok. What else should I ask to narrow down the "op level"?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
In my experience the OP-level is dictated more by the party composition and tactics than the DM, what kind of characters are your friends playing? If they are playing Warblades, DFI bards, Sorcadins, etc then you are in a mid to high op-group as opposed to single class monks, non-twf sneak attackers, non-metamagic blasting which would imply low optimization.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
There's a warblade, a favoured soul, a crusader, and an undecided. In additioon to me.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
There's a warblade, a favoured soul, a crusader, and an undecided. In additioon to me.
Barbarian can perform just fine. I definitely suggest going with Whirling Frenzy and Shock Trooper at that point tho; Barbarian's big selling point is doing tons of damage.
Alternatively, if you want some more combat options, you could look at Tome of Battle and go maybe Barbarian 2/Warblade -> so you've got Rage and then maneuvers. Might need a third class for skills, so maybe Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Warblade ->. This is the same pool from which the other players are drawing after all.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
That party seems mid-op level and is roughly tier 3. A Barb will fit well tough I think you have enough melee power in there and it seems you are lacking some arcane magic support. Just something to consider.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Apparently the warblade and favoured soul are both multiclassed to cover various skills. As i'm sure you guys can tell I don't know a whole lot about the game yet. What should I be doing as a barbarian? I mean, i know I should hit stuff, but is a sneaky barbarian ok in combat? Should I get the high damage stuff and then go for something tougher?
if I do this warblade thing or add a fighter level, what am I gaining and losing? ie why is it a good idea?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Apparently the warblade and favoured soul are both multiclassed to cover various skills. As i'm sure you guys can tell I don't know a whole lot about the game yet. What should I be doing as a barbarian? I mean, i know I should hit stuff, but is a sneaky barbarian ok in combat? Should I get the high damage stuff and then go for something tougher?
if I do this warblade thing or add a fighter level, what am I gaining and losing? ie why is it a good idea?
Yeah, the sneaky Barbarians suggested here are perfectly capable of combat still. In fact, they don't give up much in terms of combat prowess over a normal Barbarian; it's mostly a different placement of your skill points and requiring one-two levels in a non-Barbarian class.
In general, the game works so that your character has a bunch of levels (they become epic after level 20 and the game works differently but it's unlikely your game would go that far). Each level grants you a base Hit Die (that's added to your HP; Barbarian gets a d12 + Constitution, Fighter gets d10 + Constitution, Rogue gets a d6 + Constitution, etc.), skill points (Rogue gets 8+Int, Barbarian gets 4+Int, Fighter gets 2+Int, etc.), skill list (Rogue has a huge skill list, Fighter only has few), base attack bonus and base save in accordance to the class chart. In addition, they get class features (Barbarian gets Rage and stuff, Fighter gets bonus feats, Rogue gets sneak attack, etc.; variants change these, for example, Martial Rogue gets Fighter's bonus feats in exchange for sneak attack).
So, taking a level of...say Fighter on level 1 instead of Barbarian gets you less HP & skills in exchange for a bonus feat. Taking a level of Rogue instead of Barbarian costs you Base Attack Bonus, but gets you lots of skills and a large list of class skills.
Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 is basically as good at fighting as Barbarian 3 though. The key ability of Barbarian is "Rage" and that you get on level 1, so once you have 1 level of Barbarian, you can fight on the level of a Barbarian. So you gain sneakiness in exchange for less important Barbarian abilities.
Fighter level would cost you skills & HP compared to Barbarian but gain you heavy armor proficiency and an extra feat. Basically, every level is a trade-off; Ranger/Barbarian is stealthy, Fighter/Barbarian has more combat feats and straight Barbarian gets the higher level Barbarian-abilities faster.
If you want to become Conan-like, I suggest multiclassing a bit with Ranger or Rogue to gain skills he often showcases (those aren't part of the default Barbarian class), go into Barbarian once you have the ~2 levels in one of those classes for the skills and few bonus feats you can gain that way, and then either continue in Barbarian or go into Warblade (Warblade is basically a warrior class that gains "maneuvers" which allow you to perform different attacks; in other words, it gives you options on what kinds of attacks you want to perform).
To make a Conan-like character I suggest, take 2 levels in Skill Class (Rogue or Ranger), take 2 levels in Barbarian (for Rage and Improved Trip) and then either continue Barbarian or go with Warblade if the kind of combat options they offer intrigue you (take a look at Tome of Battle if you can; that should allow you to decide more easily).
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
I pesonally like, if you feel the need for reach and want a real Melee Monster, the half Minotaur Template. It's in one of the dragon mags.
As for a class combo to do a sneaky+ Control+ Tough+ Hard Hitting Barbarian, lets try this.
2 Flaws. First Bonus feat is Extra Rage, second one is Power Attack, and then take Able learner, and let's pick up shock trooper.
Now, let's take a level of Barbarian, and take the spirit lion totem and whirling frenzy variants. Take another level to get the wolf totem barbarian and get improved trip.
Next, lets get a level of Factotum. All skills as class skills and trapfinding. That's good.
From there, take 3 levels or ranger. You will then use the players handbook 2 to retain the Track and TWF/Rapid Shot feats the first two levels give you as soon as you get them. By this level, you should have your third level feat. Grab combat reflexes, and then retrain for Knockdown and Standstill. Take Leap Attack at 6t, and keep Endurance, you'll want it for a prerequisite later.
Before we go any further, I suggest yu look into Unearthed Arcana, at the LA buyoff rules, and Buyoff te +1 LA form Half Minotaur. If the DM will let it slide, rule that you've caught up in the mean time so that you gain your 8th lvl.
Now, if you only have one more level, take a level of Warblade at 7th. You'll want to grab mountain hammer, either Steel Wind Strike or Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Sudden Leap, Battle Leaders Charge, and White Raven Tactics. The rest you can just grab what looks cool form Tiger Claw, White Raven, and Iron Heart.
If you have two levels, Grab a level of Crusader, and Ignore the fluff. If his is the case, don't get Mountain Hammer, battle Leaders Charge or White Raven Tactics as a Warblade. Get them on the Crusader dip. After that, just pick up anything that let's you heal or shrug off hits from Devoted Spirit and the Thicket of Blades Stance, and grab anything that looks cool from White Raven and Devoted Spirit after that, particularly if it helps a charge.
with Crusader Healing and Thicket of blades on top of what you've already got, just using a reach weapon should make it so that you can keep things locked down if you have a decent dex score, and make yourself damnably hard to kill. White Raven and Devoted Spirit will help your charges, which helps a big part of your damage out put. Warblades Iron Heart and tiger Claw help Mobility and crowd Control further, as well as damage. And Iron Heart Surge is wonderful as a bail out of trouble. And Mountain hammer is situation-ally useful in combat, and awesome when you need to get through a door or wall.
This whole thing should make you Reasonably good at sneaky skills, and if you poke around for a few mundane Items that -4 to them from half minotaur should be off settable. It will make you good at killing things. And good at not dieing. And good a keeping jerks off you allies. Which I think is everything you need.
Also, once you level, Steadfast Determination is a wonderful feat for you. After that, your feats are basically free. I personally like the mage slayer line, but that's just me.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Totally go Water Orc Half-Minotaur.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Wow. You really meant it with the newb thing, huh?
First thing's first. Don't let yourself get suckered in by the name.
I'm not overly familiar with conan, but I don't really remember him being the berserker type, which is what the barbarian class is. Don't get me wrong, you'll probably still want at least a level or two in barb, but it might be that it's a poor fit for the core of the character concept.
From what little I have seen, ranger is a much better fit, though neither combat style is really quite right.
Warblade might also be a nice fit, but if you haven't even figured out how combat normally works I'm a little leary of suggesting something this much more complex even if it is a good fit.
Forget all that stuff I said earlier.
Until you get a good feel for the game, I'd suggest playing a straight ranger. It's not as flashy as any of the multiclass builds that've been suggested, but it can still pick up power attack, improved bull rush, and either leap attack or shocktrooper in timely fashion. You pick up leap attack or shocktrooper at 6 and hold off on the other till 9. Pick archery style, it's never a good idea to be completely without a ranged option. Once you've played for a couple of session and understand how the game's basic mechanics work, then you can start trying to figure out these 4 and 5 class multiclass monstrosities.
We've been trying to throw you in the deep end before you've even had a chance to get your feet wet.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Problem with a sneaky barbarian is that barbarians don't have move silently or hide as class skills. You might look at factotum or ranger instead.
If you're sure you want to be a barbarian, I'd suggest this build.
race: human
level 1: Factotum1[feats: able learner(human feat), combat expertise(level 1 feat), power attack(your 1st flaw), combat reflexes(your 2nd flaw)]
level 2: Barbarian 1[lion totem alternate class feature for pounce]
level 3: Barbarian 2[feat: improved trip]
level 4: Barbarian 3
level 5: Barbarian 4
level 6: Barbarian 5[feat: shocktrooper]
level 7: Fighter1[feat: leap attack]
level 8: Fighter2[feat: knockdown]
He sneaks, he defends buddies by tripping enemies who come near him, he does stupid amount of damage in a charge. If you want, he can even deal with traps by picking up the alternate class feature trapkiller. He's gonna need 14 DEX and 14 INT(you could make do with 13, but you probably shouldn't), which is gonna leave him a little bit tight, but he gets all the stuff you asked for in there. 16 CON and 16 STR fit him perfectly into 32 point buy. You'll have low WIS and CHA, which limits your choices for prestige classes and leaves your will save a bit weak, but you can't have everything. He could get into bear warrior or frostrager with this build. If you mix up the feats a little, you could go in another direction. The problem is, there are two distinct builds here. You have the protective tripper and the ubercharger. So things are a bit crowded.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
If you're set on Conan, then yes you should pick up a few levels of rogue and/or ranger for the skills. Also Whirling Frenzy barbarian could be an option for you (they swing more per round).
If you want to play something more akin to the Hulk, a goliath barbarian/dungeoncrasher fighter is going to be plenty fun. You will need the feats power attack, imp bull rush, knockback, cleave (or knock-down). Look to pick up shock-trooper at level nine.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
OK, so I've been doing a lot of reading through the books and stuff.
I'm not dead set on Conan, I was just wondering what options were available.
Here's what I've gathered so far
Other classes -
Fighter - seems to be only useful for a two level dip for more feat
Scout - extra damage and armor class while moving, only need one level. Does not fully advance BAB
Crusader - Advances BAB. Unsure about randomness, seems to be more defensive?
Warblade - more of an offense/defense balance than the Crusader, full BAB. Seems like it uses INT a lot, which worries me.
Totem Barbarian - Not 100% sure how this works. Seems like I can take a level or two in one Lion, then another level or two in Wolf?
Factotum - only useful to get skills on the first level?
Rogue - Doesn't advance BAB first level, not sure how useful class features will be
Martial Rogue - what exactly is the practical difference between this and a fighter? Or for that matter, the rogue fighter and a normal Rogue
Ranger - advances BAB first level
Alternate class abilities
- Rage/Frenzy/Ferocity, what's the deal? Are they all equally good, which one's more useful for what? How much do the status conditions from each matter? Ferocity better for a combination barbarian/stealth dude?
- Fangshield barbarian seems to have some pretty good ones.
A few more general questions:
- I'm a little confused as to how BAB advancement works. If I take, say, 6 levels of barbarian, which would be BAB +6/+1 and then a level of Fighter, would I be getting the +1 for Fighter 1 or the +7/+2 of Fighter 7?
- Will I have range issues with polearms? I'm liking the image of an incredibly pissed dude with a polearm flying through the air and introducing his weapon to people's brains via their skull, but if i then get smacked around for being too close it kinda blows...
i don't mind dealing with complex stuff, I expect that once I'm actually playing I'll figure it out quick, and even though I want to play a mad dude I don't want to sit there going "I hit it with my sword" for the 37th time in the night...
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Part 2
Race - I like the sound of an orc, minotaur doesn't really interest me. Human is kind of boring, same with dwarf. Halfling might be funny. Goliath and half-ogre are both cool too, but dunno about the LA. And apparently you can put templates on anything? I guess I'm kind of leaning towards a monster race. I've also heard of Krinth being good?
Prestige classes - the handbook you guys linked too has several, but of them Fist of the Forest, Frenzied Berserker, Deepwarden, and Runescarred Berserker look interesting. Deepwarden would seem to be eliminated since I don't have much interest in dwarfs unfortunately. Dunno about frenzied berserker, while I love the power I don't want to take down the whole rest of my party as the new guy!
What non-barbarian prestige classes might be good, or are there any I missed?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Some templates require certain things, like creature type, but lots of them stack.
I would indeed suggest Half-Ogre, the Savage Species one.
If you're into this sort of thing, Bear Warrior is really cool. It's in Complete Warrior. Frenzied Berserker gets mad strength but if you play by the rules you might end up killing your buddies. Also in Complete Warrior.
All things considered, if you don't want your character to get too tricky then a regular pounce Barbarian is totally fine.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
The only reason I don't want Bear Warrior is cause in our last game (diff system) I was a dude who turned into animals and I don't want to play something so similar twice in a row.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Fighter - seems to be only useful for a two level dip for more feat
Scout - extra damage and armor class while moving, only need one level. Does not fully advance BAB
Crusader - Advances BAB. Unsure about randomness, seems to be more defensive?
Warblade - more of an offense/defense balance than the Crusader, full BAB. Seems like it uses INT a lot, which worries me.
Thing about Warblade is that they can benefit of Int but they don't need it; those stats they get of it are fairly minor so they're nice to have but you're fine without them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Totem Barbarian - Not 100% sure how this works. Seems like I can take a level or two in one Lion, then another level or two in Wolf?
Basically, you look at what they replace. For instance, the Spirit Lion Totem on Complete Champion (don't get it confused with the one on System Reference Document) replaces your Fast Movement with Pounce. Then the Wolf Totem from Unearthed Arcana replaces Uncanny Dodge with Improved Trip.
You aren't so much taking levels in different Totem Barbarians but just replacing different abilities of the standard Barbarian class; basically, you're simultaneously taking multiple Totems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Martial Rogue - what exactly is the practical difference between this and a fighter? Or for that matter, the rogue fighter and a normal Rogue
It's a "Fighter" who gets no BAB but instead gets lots of skillpoints and a big skill list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Alternate class abilities
- Rage/Frenzy/Ferocity, what's the deal? Are they all equally good, which one's more useful for what? How much do the status conditions from each matter? Ferocity better for a combination barbarian/stealth dude?
Frenzy does the most damage (extra attack). Rage makes you hard to affect (extra HP, Will-save improvement, extra Fort-save improvement). Ferocity improves your Initiative and allows raging out of turn order. From the sound of it, Frenzy should be up your alley since you seem to want damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
- I'm a little confused as to how BAB advancement works. If I take, say, 6 levels of barbarian, which would be BAB +6/+1 and then a level of Fighter, would I be getting the +1 for Fighter 1 or the +7/+2 of Fighter 7?
The second "+1" is just a reminder that you get an extra attack every 5 BAB after level 1. Multiclassing doesn't remove this; for example, Barbarian 3/Ranger 4 will have 7 BAB which amounts to +7/+2 attacks. Barbarian 3/Ranger 4/Fighter 5 will have 12 BAB which amounts to +12/+7/+2 attacks. Rogue 3/Barbarian 4/Warblade 5 would have 11 BAB which amounts to +11/+6/+1 attacks.
Basically, add together the Base Attack Bonus of all your classes and then see how many attacks you get (1 attack with BAB 1-5, 2 attacks with BAB 6-10, 3 with BAB 11-15, 4 with BAB 16-20).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
- Will I have range issues with polearms? I'm liking the image of an incredibly pissed dude with a polearm flying through the air and introducing his weapon to people's brains via their skull, but if i then get smacked around for being too close it kinda blows...
Not really. You can take a 5' step backwards as long as your back isn't against a wall. This doesn't cost you movement nor provoke attack of opportunity and you can still full attack afterwards.
Also, you can always drop your weapon as a free action and draw another weapon as a move action (assuming you carry around a close range weapon such as a Greatsword or a Greataxe). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity and allows you to fight even if cornered (yeah, carry a sword around just in case). Also, if you took those early levels in Monk, you'll be trained in Unarmed Combat so you could just hit with your fists instead (mind, a Greatsword of course does more damage).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
i don't mind dealing with complex stuff, I expect that once I'm actually playing I'll figure it out quick, and even though I want to play a mad dude I don't want to sit there going "I hit it with my sword" for the 37th time in the night...
Then you definitely want to go Warblade. That's the best way to get some variety into your deal. If you want stealth, take 2 levels in either Ranger, Rogue or Monk. Then take 2 levels in Barbarian for Rage and pick the Extra Rage feat once or twice to cover your daily Rage uses. Then just go into Warblade and begin picking up maneuvers.
There's notably "Iron Heart Surge" in the Iron Heart school which basically amounts to "BY CROM!" It's a very "Barbarian" ability for shaking off stupid crap affecting you.
And if Orc interests you, become a Water Orc. They get +2 Constitution over normal Orcs ('cause normal Orcs have more minuses than plusses for stats). It's definitely a fine option; big strength bonus, some constitution, lose on the mental stats; pretty perfect for a Barb.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Warblade - more of an offense/defense balance than the Crusader, full BAB. Seems like it uses INT a lot, which worries me.
Nah, he only uses INT for a couple of bonuses in a couple of situations (REF Saves, Confirming Crits, extra damage vs flat-footed/flanked opponents, AoOs). While nice to have it is by no means necessary. If you want a couple of skills you will probably have INT around 14 anyways. That should be enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Totem Barbarian - Not 100% sure how this works. Seems like I can take a level or two in one Lion, then another level or two in Wolf?
No, you pick one totem and that is it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Martial Rogue - what exactly is the practical difference between this and a fighter? Or for that matter, the rogue fighter and a normal Rogue
Better class skills and more skill points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
- I'm a little confused as to how BAB advancement works. If I take, say, 6 levels of barbarian, which would be BAB +6/+1 and then a level of Fighter, would I be getting the +1 for Fighter 1 or the +7/+2 of Fighter 7?
You add the +1 from fighter to the BAB advances from any other class, so in the above scenario it is +7/+2
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
- Will I have range issues with polearms? I'm liking the image of an incredibly pissed dude with a polearm flying through the air and introducing his weapon to people's brains via their skull, but if i then get smacked around for being too close it kinda blows...
Not really. You can always make a 5ft step before attacking so you can use your polearm. the drawback is that you don't threaten adjacent squares with your polearm. That's what armor spikes are for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
i don't mind dealing with complex stuff, I expect that once I'm actually playing I'll figure it out quick, and even though I want to play a mad dude I don't want to sit there going "I hit it with my sword" for the 37th time in the night...
I'm currently playing a Lion Spirit totem Barbarian2/Fighter2/Warblade4 with the old pounce, power attack, improved bull rush, shock trooper routine. It is fun. You can hit tem hard but through maneuvers you have more than the one Charge! option. I have yet to use the tow other options Shock Trooper gives.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
very helpful posts. Seems to be a little disagreement about Totems?
Which would work better with a Barbarian, Crusader or Warblade?
Also, how beneficial would the sneak attack feature of the rogue or the skirmish ability of the scout be? They both seem to be strong skill users, which would be better?
Is Ranger just for the skills, or is there some other benefit to putting a couple of levels into it?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
very helpful posts. Seems to be a little disagreement about Totems?
Alternative Class Features all work the same; basically, the only restriction is what they replace. Since Spirit Lion Totem and Wolf Totem replace different things, you can take both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Which would work better with a Barbarian, Crusader or Warblade?
Warblade has more Barbarian-like abilities; Tiger Claw has some "take penalty to AC, get bonus To Hit and Damage"-abilities, Iron Heart has "shake off negative effects on yourself"-ability, etc. Crusader is more about healing and being a sort of a leader (tho Warblade has "White Raven" open too, which has most of the teamwork maneuvers; but Crusader also has "Devoted Spirit" which is the "Paladin"-school). Either's fine, Warblade feels more fitting tho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Also, how beneficial would the sneak attack feature of the rogue or the skirmish ability of the scout be? They both seem to be strong skill users, which would be better?
Skirmish requires some work to be good since you need to be walking around all the time; since you want to be protecting your team your positioning is kinda important so this might make it harder. Sneak Attack is easier to trigger since you deal Sneak Attack damage whenever you're flanking an enemy (that is, you have an ally you surround the enemy with).
However, both generally want a lot of levels in the class to get good amounts of the bonus damage; +1d6 isn't all that much, you want those +3d6 and +8d6 numbers. That's why I wouldn't suggest picking the skill class based on the precision damage they deal.
This is also why I suggest going with the Martial Rogue variant if you use Rogue; Martial Rogue loses Sneak Attack but gets Fighter bonus feats. This way you get skills + feats; as you noticed earlier, Barbarian can benefit quite a bit from having a lot of feats so bonus feats are really helpful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Is Ranger just for the skills, or is there some other benefit to putting a couple of levels into it?
Ranger 2 gets a bonus feat. There's an alternative combat style in Dragon Magazine called "Strong-Arm Style" where you gain Power Attack as the Combat Style feat. Ranger also can get either Tracking (if you want to know how to track) or Trapfinding from Dungeonscape (in exchange for tracking) in case you want to be able to open traps.
Basically, Ranger is Full BAB while both Rogue and Scout lose 1 BAB so Ranger is the "Full BAB + skills"-option. Also, if you have any level in Ranger you can use Wands with Ranger-spells in them (for example, Wand of Cure Light Wounds for out of combat healing) which can be helpful, a nice small bonus (yes, this even works if you don't have enough levels to cast Ranger spells).
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
very helpful posts. Seems to be a little disagreement about Totems?
Not really a disagreement, just a different interpretation what you asked. There are two types of totems as Eldariel wrote. You cannot choose two totems of the same type, but you could by RAW use one of each type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Which would work better with a Barbarian, Crusader or Warblade?
Yes. I think it is mostly a matter of taste. Both will work.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
I don't see where anyone's said this yet, but I may have missed it.
Stay far, far away from frenzied berserker.
It's a beast of a class, but it requires a fair amount of system mastery to not be a huge liability to your allies. Just steer clear until you understand the game better.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Ah, forgot to talk about that. Frenzied Berserker is great for wiping out the opposition, but if the character is still in frenzy mode when all enemies are dead he is very likely to wipe out the allies as well. The party would really need an off-switch on him.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eldariel
Skirmish requires some work to be good since you need to be walking around all the time; since you want to be protecting your team your positioning is kinda important so this might make it harder. Sneak Attack is easier to trigger since you deal Sneak Attack damage whenever you're flanking an enemy (that is, you have an ally you surround the enemy with).
However, both generally want a lot of levels in the class to get good amounts of the bonus damage; +1d6 isn't all that much, you want those +3d6 and +8d6 numbers. That's why I wouldn't suggest picking the skill class based on the precision damage they deal.
Ah, i thought the skill levelled up as you did once you got it in the first place. In that case, neither seem like they're worth it. Darn. I was hoping for a sneak-attacking skirmishing power attacker lol
I like the huge damage output of Frenzied Barbarian, I don't like killing everyone in my party. Guess it's a no-go : /
I did see the Righteous Wrath feat in the barbarian handbook. Would that be enough to cool down in time to avoid taking out all my buddies?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
I did see the Righteous Wrath feat in the barbarian handbook. Would that be enough to cool down in time to avoid taking out all my buddies?
There is the problem of even getting that feat. It is [Exalted], meaning not only must you be and remain ridiculously good (as per BoED) but it must also be bestowed on you by some higher power. The description of the feat only references Rage, so it would not apply to Frenzy.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Andezzar
There is the problem of even getting that feat. It is [Exalted], meaning not only must you be and remain ridiculously good (as per BoED) but it must also be bestowed on you by some higher power. The description of the feat only references Rage, so it would not apply to Frenzy.
Check with your DM, but Iron Heart Surge could potentially be used to end the Frenzy when need be (it's not strictly by RAW but Iron Heart Surge is kinda weird anyways so it's worth asking at least). Tho frankly, Barbarian/Warblade will already be swimming in damage so it's probably not necessary. Besides, Ranger 2/Barbarian 2/Warblade 16 is more than good enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Ah, i thought the skill levelled up as you did once you got it in the first place. In that case, neither seem like they're worth it. Darn. I was hoping for a sneak-attacking skirmishing power attacker lol
Yeah, your Rage won't improve either without taking more levels in the class. Basically, in 3.5 without a feat that says otherwise you need levels in that class to improve your class features.
It is possible to combine Skirmish and Sneak Attack but frankly, it's not worth the effort as you need to move and flank every turn to get your bonus damage. Besides, a proper Barbarian can do even more anyways, and he doesn't have to worry about Precision Damage (things like Undead and Elementals without discernable bodyparts are immune to Precision Damage like Sneak Attack since, y'know, you can't stab them in the kidney since they have none).
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
OK, I'm starting to put some stuff together, but that's just made more questions pop up
Can I be penalized for low INT in warblade abilities or skill multipliers for classes?
How do my skill points get determined? Is it by level? (ie the level of rogue gets x number of skill points, the next level is barbarian and only gets y, etc)
What's the deal with ranger combat styles? how do they interact with disciplines, maneuvers, and stances?
Can someone explain why dungeoncrasher fighter is supposedly so great?
Thanks for all the help guys
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Can I be penalized for low INT in warblade abilities or skill multipliers for classes?
Generally, yes. If you have 8 Int and are, say, an orc, you'll get one fewer skill point per level, to a minimum of 1. (You multiply that result by four to get skill points for your first level, so it's always at least 4.)
Quote:
How do my skill points get determined? Is it by level? (ie the level of rogue gets x number of skill points, the next level is barbarian and only gets y, etc)
Yep.
Quote:
Can someone explain why dungeoncrasher fighter is supposedly so great?
Because it's basically free. It's a nice little way to improve Fighter builds that costs almost nothing except more Fighter levels. The damage boosts are handy without being OP.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Can I be penalized for low INT in warblade abilities or skill multipliers for classes?
The warblade abilities reference an INT bonus. If you do not have an INT bonus you do not add it. AFAIK there is no addition of an INT penalty. I'm not sure, what you mean by skill multipliers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
How do my skill points get determined? Is it by level? (ie the level of rogue gets x number of skill points, the next level is barbarian and only gets y, etc)
Ever class gets a certain amount of skill points each level. It is in the form of X+INT skill points (warblade gets 4+INT). Those points are quadrupled on Level 1 (That is character level, not class level). Humans get 1 more skill point (4 more at level 1). Skill points however reference the INT modifier which means a penalty is added.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
What's the deal with ranger combat styles? how do they interact with disciplines, maneuvers, and stances?
There is not much interaction between those. Disciplines are just a certain set of maneuvers. Stances are a special kind of maneuvers. There are however a couple of stances and maneuvers that require the user to fight with two weapons to work. It is not improtant whether he does that with the ranger combat style, true two-weapon fighting with feats or just having a weapon in each hand. Because of the penalties the latter option is a really poor one and hardly anyone would pick such maneuvers unless he was able to dual-wield properly (options one and two).
@Dungeoncrasher: It's nice if you plan to take a lot of fighter levels. If you take fighter levels mainly for the extra feats not so much. To get the most out of this alternate class feature you should have a way to get bull rushes very often.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
OK, I'm starting to put some stuff together, but that's just made more questions pop up
Can I be penalized for low INT in warblade abilities or skill multipliers for classes?
Nope, no penalties come from those abilities. At worst they grant you no bonus. In general, abilities you gain do nothing at worst (so it's basically never net negative to gain an ability; at worst you don't use it).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
How do my skill points get determined? Is it by level? (ie the level of rogue gets x number of skill points, the next level is barbarian and only gets y, etc)
Class Base + Int Modifier (negative or positive) for each level. On first level you get 4x skill points so it's always a good idea to take the highest skill class you plan on taking first (in your case Ranger, Rogue or Scout).
Say, you have 12 Intelligence (+1 Modifier). You take the first level in Ranger; this gives you Ranger Base (6) + Int Modifier (1) points (total 7). And since it's your first level, take 4x this number (28). Next level in Ranger is 7 points. Then take a level in Barbarian, you get Barbarian Base (4) + Int Modifier (1) = 5 points.
Note that subsequent Intelligence increases don't retroactively give you skill points, nor do temporary Int increases (such as magic item "Headband of Intelligence" which gives you +2 bonus to Intelligence). Oh, and Humans get special +1 skill points per level. And again, if you have 8 Int, you get -1 to your skill points (level 1 Ranger with 8 Int would get (6 - 1) * 4 = 20 skill points).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
What's the deal with ranger combat styles? how do they interact with disciplines, maneuvers, and stances?
They determine what feats you gain as you advance Ranger-levels. If you only intend on taking 2 levels of Ranger, they don't matter much. But if you are a single-classed Ranger, your chosen combat style determines which bonus feat you gain on level 2, level 6 and level 11.
If you only take 2 levels of Ranger, you basically just pick which bonus feat you want on level 2 from the various options (which include Power Attack in Dragon Magazine Extra Styles list).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Can someone explain why dungeoncrasher fighter is supposedly so great?
Compared to normal Fighter, it gets the unique option of dealing a ton of damage by tackling people to walls. As Fighter otherwise has lots of problems gaining any unique options, this is well-liked. If you're not interested on being a Kool-Aid Man tho, it's not the way to go.
It also requires 6 levels of Fighter to fully gain the benefits. Fighter doesn't get a lot of skills or interesting class features so this is kind of a downer.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
So I'm wondering what to go into for my skills, and which order to dip in. This has already been addressed a bit, but I've been going through them and here's what I've got.
The three main choices seem to be
1) Factotum
- (6+Int mod) skills per level, treat any skill as class skill
- Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding. 2 level dip adds Arcane dilettante, but a 2 level dip here seems darned unlikely.
- Doesn't advance BAB or Fort save with a 1 level dip, does advance Reflex.
Chief selling point is any skill as class skill.
2) Martial Rogue
- (8 + Int modifier) per level, a host of class skills.
- Bonus Feat, Trapfinding. If 2 level dip, Evasion
- Doesn't advance BAB or Fort save with a 1 level dip, does advance Reflex.
Even more skill points, less broad array of things to use them on.
Mimic, Spell Reflection, and Wilderness Rogue could all be useful?
3) Ranger
- (6+Int mod) skills per level, reasonable array of skills to invest in.
- Class features - 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy. If 2 level dip, Combat style.
- Advances BAB, Fortitude, and Reflex saves
Arcane Hunter, voice of the city, trap expert, favored environment, and fast movement all could be good trades. If dipping for 2, might be worth trading combat style out for something else due to the armor limitation? Or try to persuade GM to allow a 2-handed combat style? EDIT: Just saw that apparently there are alternate combat styles elsewhere, one of which uses Power Attack?
Between the three, Ranger is ahead thanks to the BAB and two strong save bonuses. On the other hand, I then have to spend a feat on Able Learner if I want everything as a class skill. Rogue gives a bonus feat (I think) which could be put right into able learner, and it gives an even larger number of skill points.
Two other questions:
1) If I take, for example, a level of rogue and get trapsense and swap it out for something, and then take a level of barbarian, and get trapsense again, can I swap it out for yet another thing or is it counted as part of the first trapsense?
2) Is Fangshields Barbarian worth investigating?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
The three main choices seem to be
1) Factotum
- (6+Int mod) skills per level, treat any skill as class skill
- Inspiration, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge, Trapfinding. 2 level dip adds Arcane dilettante, but a 2 level dip here seems darned unlikely.
- Doesn't advance BAB or Fort save with a 1 level dip, does advance Reflex.
Chief selling point is any skill as class skill.
This shouldn't be on the table unless you've got a good Intelligence modifier, which seems unlikely for an Orc. The big selling point for Factotum is getting Int to everything, especially all Str/Dex checks on level 3, and able to add them to attacks and such with Inspiration. You can get all the skills you want anyways (Rogue, Ranger, Barbarian, Warblade gives you massive coverage already; hell, Rogue alone covers almost everything); there's little value in the more esoteric skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
2) Martial Rogue
- (8 + Int modifier) per level, a host of class skills.
- Bonus Feat, Trapfinding. If 2 level dip, Evasion
- Doesn't advance BAB or Fort save with a 1 level dip, does advance Reflex.
Even more skill points, less broad array of things to use them on.
Mimic, Spell Reflection, and Wilderness Rogue could all be useful?
Much better than Factotum in every relevant regard unless you have ~+3 Intelligence modifier or higher. Now the question is if you want the BAB from Ranger or the extra skill points from Rogue; basically, where on the skill/combat axis you want to place yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
3) Ranger
- (6+Int mod) skills per level, reasonable array of skills to invest in.
- Class features - 1st favored enemy, Track, wild empathy. If 2 level dip, Combat style.
- Advances BAB, Fortitude, and Reflex saves
Arcane Hunter, voice of the city, trap expert, favored environment, and fast movement all could be good trades. If dipping for 2, might be worth trading combat style out for something else due to the armor limitation? Or try to persuade GM to allow a 2-handed combat style? EDIT: Just saw that apparently there are alternate combat styles elsewhere, one of which uses Power Attack?
Yeah, Dragon Magazine 326 has the following extra Combat Styles (listing feats in order "Combat Style, Improved Combat Style, Greater Combat Style"):
Bear-Wrestling: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple & Stunning Fist
Mounted Combat: Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge & Trample
Piscator: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net), Improved Trip & Improved Critical
Strong-Arm: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Great Cleave
Throwing: Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot
Out of those, Strong-Arm is the obvious choice, as you'll only ever get the first feat anyways so the rest don't really matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Between the three, Ranger is ahead thanks to the BAB and two strong save bonuses. On the other hand, I then have to spend a feat on Able Learner if I want everything as a class skill. Rogue gives a bonus feat (I think) which could be put right into able learner, and it gives an even larger number of skill points.
Martial Rogue has the same bonus feat levels as Fighter, so you get bonus feat on level 1 and level 2. The bonus feats have to be Fighter feats tho (but you can just pick up e.g. Power Attack and Combat Reflexes and use your normal 1st level feat for Able Learner).
Note tho, Able Learner doesn't work quite like you think. Basically, normally you have some class skills and cross-class skills. Your class skills have maximum cap of 3+Your Character Level (this applies if a skill is a class skill for any of your classes so taking a level of Ranger = all Ranger-skills forever have the maximum cap rank of 3+Your Character Level for this character) and cross-class skills have maximum cap of ½ that, rounded down.
Further, however, cross-class skills cost twice as much to take. That is, it costs you two skill points to take 1 rank of a cross-class skill. This is not mitigated even if the skill is a class-skill for your other classes, so if your Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 wants to place a 6th rank (5 ranks as Ranger) to Hide when taking the level of Barbarian, he pays 2 skill points for it. This is where Able Learner comes in; it makes all skills cost you 1 skill point/rank no matter whether they're class skills or cross class skills.
However, there's this little detail that Able Learner is Human-only feat. You can probably ask your DM to remove that restriction tho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
Two other questions:
1) If I take, for example, a level of rogue and get trapsense and swap it out for something, and then take a level of barbarian, and get trapsense again, can I swap it out for yet another thing or is it counted as part of the first trapsense?
Yes, trades are made separately for each class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
32) Is Fangshields Barbarian worth investigating?
It doesn't have anything earthshattering; I wouldn't bother.
EDIT: It occurs to me my explanation of Able Learner was convoluted. An effort to make it more clear:
Class Skill: Cap rank 3+Character Level. Every rank costs 1 skill point.
Normal Cross-Class Skill: Cap rank (3+Character Level)/2. Every rank costs 2 skill points.
Cross-Class Skill that is a class skill for another class this character has: Cap rank (3+Character Level)/2. Cap rank 3+Character level. Every rank costs 2 skill points.
Cross-Class Skill on a character who has Able Learner: Cap rank (3+Character Level)/2. Every rank costs 2 skill points. Every rank costs 1 skill point.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
I'm still not entirely sure I understand the Able Learner explanation but I'll reread it a few times : ) Would you say it's worth getting Able Learner overall?
I was reading through the skills and skill tricks in your guide to barbarians after looking at stuff for the factotum and I noticed that you made no mention of Acrobatic backstab or autohypnosis. Could either of those help a barbarian? Other people seem to be big fans of autohypnosis but it doesn't appear to be anything especially wonderful to me.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Autohypnosis is a handy little skill that basically:
- Means you never die to bleeding out.
- Can act normally while at 0 HP.
- Can resist Poison somewhat better.
- Can get a reroll vs. Fear.
None of those are particularly important for a Barbarian. It's a handy skill to have if you have extra skill points (basically, it just means you have a disciplined mind that's capable of shrugging off pain and such). You probably won't, here.
Acrobatic Backstab, sure, knock yourself out. It requires 12 ranks in Tumble to pick up though; earliest you can have that is character level 9 (then you can have 3+Character Level = 12 Ranks in a class skill). It also doesn't work with a full attack (since you need to move to use it) so you'd best be a Warblade to use it (basically, you only get extra attacks from high Base Attack Bonus and any bonus attacks you have on a full attack; doesn't matter for the first 5 levels unless you take Whirling Frenzy, but after that point you want to stand still to dish out maximum pain).
Warblade maneuvers can be used with movement tho so that's away around the scarecrow syndrome of having to stand in place to be useful.
In general, skill tricks are handy but not so big. Just pick ones that feel cool to you up if you have the skill points.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
I'm still not entirely sure I understand the Able Learner explanation but I'll reread it a few times : ) Would you say it's worth getting Able Learner overall?
the benefits of Able Learner are: Every rank in every skill costs only one skill point. As per the normal rules if a skill is a class skill in any of your classes the maximum number of ranks is character level +3. So for example if you take only one level of rogue and Able Learner on level 1 you could maximize any of the rogue class skills even if you only took levels in classes which don't have them as class skills afterwards, without paying extra.
If you want to maximize skills that are only class skills for classes you only want to dip, it is well worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
I was reading through the skills and skill tricks in your guide to barbarians after looking at stuff for the factotum and I noticed that you made no mention of Acrobatic backstab or autohypnosis. Could either of those help a barbarian? Other people seem to be big fans of autohypnosis but it doesn't appear to be anything especially wonderful to me.
Acrobatic backstab is only worth it if you have an ability that causes something special if the target is flat-footed (like sneak attack). Autohypnosis could be worthwhile.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Hmmm, autohypnosis might be good for somebody who's main defense is his chest hair. Think I'll steer clear of acrobatic backstab.
I've just found a few nifty alternate class features in Dragon Magazine 349, p 92. Dashing Step and Devil's Luck. Either of them good? It would seems like the luck bonus to saving throws in particular is quite good. Unshakeable might be ok too.
Also, if I'm dipping into fighter, the Exoticist might be useful.
And, opinion on martial monk? Seems like you could get 2 bonus feats and some class features or alternate class features (decisive strike and Invisible Fist, hello! Standing Jump and Spell Reflection decent too) that would help out a Barbarian, as well as a decent number of skills and points. No BAB progression for 1 level dip, but a +2 to every save.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
And, opinion on martial monk? Seems like you could get 2 bonus feats and some class features or alternate class features (decisive strike and Invisible Fist, hello! Standing Jump and Spell Reflection decent too) that would help out a Barbarian, as well as a decent number of skills and points. No BAB progression for 1 level dip, but a +2 to every save.
Monk's a decent splash option especially if you plan on fighting unarmed. Gets less skills than Ranger/Rogue/etc. but still has Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Hide & co. It really comes down to whether you can make do with the lesser skill point allotment or not. If you feel you can, then knock yourself out.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
So I was reading the warblade handbook and it's been making me wonder, why go into barbarian at all? Do Tome of battle classes make the majority of other melee classes obsolete?
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
They are better than most other base classes yes; but since most of them (including monk and CWar Samurai the "weakest" melee clasess) have a niche thae ToB can't fully replace they aren't completely obsoleted by them.
One example is Fear Stacking, somthing that the Samurai shines at, or even at RAW damage. A properly built barbarian will outdamage a similarly tricked Warblade. Their biggest draw is their versatility which gives them something to do out of combat and contribute in combat without the "I full attack... again" problem of most martial classes.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SirAxealot
So I was reading the warblade handbook and it's been making me wonder, why go into barbarian at all? Do Tome of battle classes make the majority of other melee classes obsolete?
You basically go into Barbarian if you want to Rage. If you still want the versatility of ToB class, you can take couple of levels of Barbarian to pick up Rage (and Pounce and Improved Trip if you feel so inclined) and then go into Warblade.
But yeah, Rage is the defining feature of Barbarian that ToB classes can't replicate, along with easy access to Pounce, so it still has its place. Generally, a multiclassed Barbarian/Warblade can give either a straight Warblade or a straight Barbarian a run for their money.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Oh, and how much multiclassing is sane? Cause right now Martial Rogue, Fighter, Monk, and Barbarian are all looking like worthy two-level dips if I end up going into warblade later, as recommended earlier. Even if I don't, that's still quite a few classes on top of possible prestige classes.
Can you tell I've been doing a lot of reading but not much playing lol
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dusk Eclipse
They are better than most other base classes yes; but since most of them (including monk and CWar Samurai the "weakest" melee clasess) have a niche thae ToB can't fully replace they aren't completely obsoleted by them.
One example is Fear Stacking, somthing that the Samurai shines at, or even at RAW damage. A properly built barbarian will outdamage a similarly tricked Warblade. Their biggest draw is their versatility which gives them something to do out of combat and contribute in combat without the "I full attack... again" problem of most martial classes.
CW samurai is still flat-out worse than Zhentarim Soldier.
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Re: Help Newbie Barbarian Bash Heads
I am not familiar with the specifics of Zentharim fighter, does it has something like mass Staredown?