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I was looking into building a melee-based cleric or druid.
However, neither class has access to the Extra Attack ability (as far as I've seen); so around level 6'ish, every other melee character seems to attack twice as often (or 50% more, if TWF or similar) and that's a pretty big gap. How does a melee-focused cleric or druid cope with that? Or should I stick to bladesinger or sword-bard instead?
It depends what your intent for being in melee is.
The simple answer is usually BB/GFB, or some other means of generating damage thru magic. There’s thorns builds, like using AoA as retributive damage on hits. There’s PC-centric AoEs like Spirit Guardians.
If just looking for melee range attack damage, look to why you’re playing a Druid and what spells you can use. Wildshape is the common answer there, I’d imagine, but could also have some sort of Spike Growth with grappling theme.
The Bladetrips are where it's at (GFB, BB) if you want to make one attack enhanced by magic. Otherwise, you're stuck with your magic weapon, plus any riders like the cleric's +damage at level 8. Druids don't have anything that I'm aware of.
You can use Shillelagh to attack with wisdom, but then you're locked into certain weapons.
Aside from that, you're entirely reliant on certain spells, like Polymorph (meh), Guardian of Nature (4) or Draconic Transformation (7)
There is also the tried and true method of taking both Great Weapon Master and Polearm Master, to get +10 damage and a bonus action attack to fuel it. This is easier to accomplish as a cleric since several of their subclasses give martial weapons, but druid will have to rely on things like the newer version of trance (so you're locked out of Variant Human/Custom Lineage, meaning you won't see both feats until 8th level at the earliest).
Are you intending to be your party's main frontliner with this build? Or are you wanting to be a divine caster that can fight in melee?
Swashbuckler Rogue with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade either by a small multiclass dip or Magic Initiate feat works great. This character will do a tremendous amount of single target damage in a skirmisher type roll.
Tempest Cleric with Booming Blade can work, but you'll find that you're still better off casting than attacking most of the time. This character is a front line tank with high AC.
How do you feel about Moon Druids?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
The Arcana Cleric frontliner is a good one. Spirit Guardians and Thorn Whip is a powerful combination, a Booming Blade with potent cantrip is about on par with extra attack.
Primarily, either high damage by having a buff like Rage or Hex trigger on multiple attacks; or good chance of debuffs by having multiple chances per round to trigger Slasher/Crusher feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by RSP
I like AOA but that can be added to pretty much anything.
Greenflame doesn't really do what I'm looking for, but Shillelagh actually does (when combined with Polearm Master and Crusher), so thanks for the suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-H
Oh, that's a nice combo, I hadn't thought of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by thoroughlyS
The latter.Quote:
Are you intending to be your party's main frontliner with this build? Or are you wanting to be a divine caster that can fight in melee?
That's also a good idea, if I shapeshift into a form with multiple attacks. Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Unoriginal
I like most of the other options better, but putting your character on a mount can get you a lot more melee capability by letting you do things like use a lance (bigger damage dice) and having a mount that can attack as well (only effective if you keep getting bigger and better ones).
They are full casters. Blade singer should not have extra attack either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
More full casters should have an extra attack option not fewer. Extra attack is pretty much required for basic melee competency, and isn't much stronger than cantrips without the various bonuses true melee oriented classes get.Quote:
Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast
Lol like what. Dueling fighting style? Rage damage bonus? Hunter's "fight the horde?"Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
Melee classes do damage (actual damage) through 4 sources: GWM, PAM, divine smite, and magic weapons with extra damage dice. One of these is class-specific, but available with an easy dip and famously better for full casters than the class that gets it. The other three can be taken and used by full casters as easily as martial classes.
So no. I wildly disagree - if a notion of martial classes are going to be maintained, some of their features need to be sacred.
Any druid with PAM and a summoned beast is functionally a multi attack character. 3x attacks by lvl3 is pretty good. You'll be fairly AC/ spell slots/ concentration limited, but those slots are reasonably abundant, so you can usually keep a summon up for every encounter by lvl5-6. Plus, you'll always have a wildshape-slot familiar for help actions, thus keeping your to-hit pretty good in comparison to most.
Once magic weapon immunities start coming up, move up to Fey (give the little bugger a magic short sword) and then dragons (because flying around is fun). They actually scale rather well with higher slots, compared to everything other than Conjure Beasts, but are a lot fairer. You'll never really suck in melee, and can be SAD'ish (Wis+Con), but you won't excell like an actual melee character. If you want to feel more like one character, just summon your beast as a monkey or snake and have it ride around on your shoulders. It gives you a bit of a tradeoff where you have to stay in melee to get all your attacks (the monkey goes directly after you), but it makes it a fairly easy and fun build. Auto-pack-tactics for the monkey will mean plenty of hits. They can also shove/grapple fairly well, so you do have some combat options.
Even something like a Land druid can work, because a dribble of extra slots works well given the lvl2 slot entry requirement. You can try out stuff like Haste as a Grasslands if you want, just to vary up your playstyle a tad. Or Mirror Image as a Coastal, for a bit of extra defense. You also get Enlarge on your list these days, so you can embiggen yourself sometimes as well (or be a mount as virtually anything with wildshape. An huge warhorse is still pretty good at lvl4 for combat in open areas. A Hasted one at lvl5, even more-so).
Stars also works well, if you want to have a go at a hybrid melee/ ranged character, because Druids actually do have quite a few instant spells, and Archer constellation is never a bad thing (nor are a few extra Guiding Bolts slots) every once in a while. Sometimes you're in PAM/ dragon/ snake summon mode, sometimes you're in Bolt/ Archer/ eagle summon mode, and they both work fine (and they all scale off Wis, so you can have nice other stats too). They also get a tiny bit of bardic-style un/inspiration at lvl6, which can be clutch occasionally, so make for very well rounded characters (non concentration Giant eagle fly at 8th with wildshape, and at 10th with dragon constellation, also helps). There's just a lot you can do with a Stars druid, melee or not.
Remember to take the pirate background. Athletics and Perception are key, and so is causing affray without problems.
Oh, and there's the War Cleric too (which I tend to think is vastly underrated). It also multiclasses pretty well with druids for ALL of the weapon/ armour proficiencies, and moving around your daily spell preparations in strange ways. The occasional full damage bonus action attack without magic or feats is just the icing.
Remember to ask your circle/ church for some non-metallic armour (it's pretty easy to assume they've got some blessed chitin or giant snake scale breastplates lying around somewhere for you by lvl5, once you've proved yourself. Try and get a magic beatstick too, because +'s are +'s.
At worst, a +1 Sickle of the Moon, considering AL used to give you one of them for free at lvl5+. Super healer'ific, and +DC for you/your summon's attacks. I wonder if you could gaffer-tape one onto the end of a beatstick? Magic beatstick/ pruning hook ftw!)
There is nothing sacred about extra attack, it's a basic necessity for minimal competence for fighting without cantrips. There is a reason every class that considers non spell combat and just about every monster has it or multi-attack past a certain CR. And the spellcaster who does their basic fighting with a weapon instead of a cantrip is a popular archetype. If a full caster getting Extra Attack makes all of the other martial classes obsolete then they were badly designed and need buffs (which is kind of true in cases/level ranges).Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrum
Agreed - my point is that giving full casters extra attack more freely would result in martial classes, particularly fighter, ranger, and barbarian, being entirely obsolete. ENTIRELY. Like why would you take those classes (beyond a single level for proficiencies) when you can get the most important class feature AND full casting in <druid, cleric, wizard, sorcerer>.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
Those classes should be buffed, even now. But giving away their best feature....like that's just gonna dig such a hole.
My disagreement is I don't think the situation is really that bad (though martial classes could do with buffs especially in the 10+ ranges for a few), every martial besides Barbarians has at least some access to level 3+ spells (or their equivalents) if they want, and that access is as fundamental to full casters as extra attack to weapon users. Now, Extra Attack should of course come at the cost of some other feature (likely in a subclass built around being more martial), I wasn't saying it should be free. Just that the archetype of the Sorcerer wielding a sword should be properly supported (and bladetrips shouldn't be the only option).Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrum
If you'd like there to be a sorcerer subclass that gets extra attack at level 13, ok that sounds fine xDQuote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
Idk. I see what you're getting at, but martial classes are already shortchanged in several notable ways (especially as you note in scaling into t3 and t4), I'm extremely hesitant to further dilute the few really good abilities they do get. Like sure, give a sorcerer subclass extra attack. Or maybe someone who wants to play a sorcerer who swings a sword should multiclass, which is the solution already in the system. Wanting to maintain full casting progression WHILE getting extra attack...want your cake and eat it too, eh?
As noted above, druids kinda do. They are the cake, and everyone else can eat s* and die for all they care. 😋
No. Martials need to be the niche for that. Full casters have other neat features.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
Just for a "do everything, plus melee, full caster character" here's something easy to run.
Stars Druid variant human pirate
Str10 (may as well have some carry)
Dex14 (fits into most armours, and +init is nice)
Con15+1 (concentration saves + HP)
Int8 (not dumb, just wise. Dump stat)
Wis15+1 (really wise. Pump this)
Char 8 (dump stat for you)
Athletics (anti grapple roll, and good for wildshape), Perception (changed out to Stealth with pirate double-up), Stealth (it's never bad), and two skills of your choice (variant human +1, Insight for anti-deception, and something else?).
Feat: Polearm Master (hit stuff with your stick, good).
Cantrips: Produce flame (you don't have Darkvision + fire ranged stuff), Shillelagh (SAD this thing). You get Guidance free at lvl2. Works well by lvl2, works really well by lvl3, and keeps working better every level after that. Yeah, you do melee. But you can do so much more as well. You do have a 1-turn windup on turning on your magic headbeating stick, but you do still get to attack with it that round. After that, you get your bonus action attack with it as well (at d8+wis magic attacks hopefully, but you get opportunity attacks on them entering your 5' reach regardless).
Easiest start ever.
Standard Druid +2Wis at lvl4, Resilient(Con) at 8th. You're still a full caster, but keeping your melee summon attacks up is part and parcel of the build. Since they go to two attacks at lvl7 (lvl4 spell slots, but you don't have a heap of them yet), it's just you "scaling" as a melee character. Lol. It's not like you won't just Polymorph someone occasionally instead, and figure "melee thing, done!".
I'd probably go Alert at lvl12, or +2Wis, but the world's your oyster by that point.
(I'd normally say Firbolg for the race, but for specific melee stuff, variant human is best-of-breed)
((You're not stuck with the build either. A bit of extra magic holly on your beatstick, but otherwise just a standard Stars Druid. It's nice to be able to hit stuff that comes close. A lot of what you are, is what you do regularly, with druids. You could probably choose Alert at lvl1, never choose PAM, and still work as a functional "melee" build as a druid))
Other way around: combat cantrips are a concession for those who lack good regular attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
Yes and? There is a full caster with an extra attack subclass in the core book (and an option in another class), and there was another in like the first splat with class based options. Not to mention a 3rd in some of the earliest uneartch arcana. Bladetrips are great at opening that option for less investment but that doesn't mean their should be sub-classes that offer extra attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unoriginal
As pointed out above, Extra Attack isn't a niche, it's the single most common ability outside of spell casting. We don't say Paladins, Rangers, Eldritch Knights, or Arcane Tricksters are honing on a niche.Quote:
Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast
I think we both know level 6 is the ideal level here, it's when most subclasses get the option. Also, an interesting fact I realized as I was typing this, the only classes with no Extra Attack option are Druids, Clerics, Rogues, and Sorcerers. Kind of an odd bunch, and Druids do kind of have it with wildshaping. So an interesting question becomes for Clerics and Sorcerers, is Extra Attack really that much stronger as feature for its theoretical subclass than any of the other level 6 features are for theirs? I don't think you can clearly get to yes there. And that's all I am really talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrum
Anyways, since I am starting to derail the thread. The only ways I can imagine melee attacks being good without Extra Attack is bladestrips, ideally mixed with a smiting option. Which points to some kind of Paladin or Warlock multiclass. If you don't like bladetrips, a Paladin 2/War Cleric X could also be interesting, especially with the GWM and PAM combo mentioned earlier. The Paladin levels give you a smite option for big hits, and the War Cleric have their channel to turn a miss into a likely hit (which works really with GWM).
For cleric, spirit guardians gets you alot of good things for melee damage wise.
Would the game be that disrupted by giving sorcerers an extra attack subclass. No. It wouldn't. But that's because sorcerers are *already better* than the classes that are built around extra attack. Adding that one feature doesn't really change much for sorcerers overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
But it does change fighters. It changes what role they play in the game. If those full casting classes all get an extra attack option, what the game is basically saying is weapon and armor proficiency + larger hit die = full casting. And that's just laughable.
Paladin 2 sorcerer X is already a well known, good build. Now imagine that build gets extra attack at 8th character level. Truly, why would you ever want to play a fighter, when you can have better defense, better offense, AoE, crowd control, etc etc etc., by playing a sorcerer.
Just to start off I am still a proponent of giving buffs to Fighters/Barbarians/Rogues/Monks, especially in the 11+ range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrum
It doesn't actual change anything for a Fighter. Because they are still going to be better at at-will damage (likely by a notable amount), and anyone who cares that much about being the best wasn't going to play a pure fighter anyways. For pure Sorcerers all it really changes is the source of their at-will damage, which is probably the least impactful aspect of their character, it doesn't suddenly make them a melee beast. The most problematic point in your example isn't the Extra Attack on the Sorc, it's the 2 level of Paladins before becoming a Sorc that gives you so many goodies.
Also, I would probably play a Paladin / Swords Bard before your Sorcadin. I am surprised I don't see that combo suggested more option, Bard has so many nice goodies, and Swords is arguably as good as or better than Battlemaster in terms of flexible melee awesomeness.
Oh yeah, I got that. We agree. I'm just like...let's start with the martial buffs lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
Maybe? Most sources of damage come from feats and magic items. Which are entirely class-agnostic. Things like samurai's focus or battle master's maneuvers are not big sources of damage. If a str-spec'd sorc grabs GWM and then uses their concentration for even something simple like faerie fire, like they're gonna hit more than the fighter, all else being equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
I absolutely would not, and here's why -Quote:
Originally Posted by GeneralVryth
OK I'm going to make a bigger point about spellcasters first. Bards are full casters done correctly. They have a thematically consistent list of spells that make them good at what they do, but don't let them do everything. They are notably missing staples like absorb elements, shield, and misty step, giving them pretty notable defensive holes. They don't really do AoE either - they're about trickery and control. As a result they are not in the same league as the other four full casters who have much more of a "kitchen sink" spell list. This is why I think sorcerers, cleric, druids, and wizard are the real culprits of class disparity, and bards aren't.
Now as far as gishes go: yes bards have College of Swords, and their maneuvers are very good. But consider
1) Bards can't "dump" Cha. Sorcerers can. Bardic Inspiration gets a number of uses equal to your Cha modifier. If you want to make use of maneuvers, you're gonna want a 16 Cha *minimum.* The bardic spell list is also a lot less friendly in general to having a relatively low spell save.
2) Sorcerers are troubled by neither of these problems. If I was making a gish, I would take 13 Cha and the list of sorc spells that don't force a saving throw or attack roll over 18 Cha and the entire bardic spell list (assume everything else is the same). Sorcs get all the insane defensive spells. They get even better teleportation spells, like vortex warp and thunderstep. They get fireball, which usually works just fine even with a low save. They get haste. They get blink.
3) Sorcerers get quicken. They can cast a leveled spell - haste, blink, blur, etc. - and still attack in the same turn. This is huge. Sorcerers don't have to really consider "is it worth it to spend the action, is the battle gonna last long enough." They quicken, and don't lose anything.
Thus, it actually is basically OK to give bards an extra attack subclass. But bladesingers were a mistake, and that mistake shouldn't be done again with sorcerers.
Rogue of some variety was going to be my suggestion. Arcane Trickster can do a lot with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by CTurbo
If you're going to do Great Weapon Master and PAM, consider War cleric for that +10 to hit, it'll really do work here. However, arcana cleric grabbing Booming Blade can do a LOT in these cases. Even without shillelagh, a 16 in either str or dex (if you can get a dex weapon, elf helps here) is enough to weaponize your action in a resource-free way.Quote:
Originally Posted by thoroughlyS
I disagree that they are not big sources of damage, to make GWM or Shaprshooter really shine you need an accuracy buff. Needing a concentration effect to equalize is not trivial. A caster has to invest in being able to maintain concentration. This doesn't mention saving throws stopping the spells. I think greater invisibility is the first non-saving throw offensive advantage casters can get. Meanwhile Battlemasters and Samurai have had their bonus for awhile, and so have Barbarians in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrum
In fact I would wager you can't build a full caster that is an equal or better weapon user than a Fighter at levels 1 through 8. At least not over the course of an adventuring day. And if you are mutliclassing you are sacrificing part of the full caster to do it. I would even grant a hypothetical Sorcerer subclass that gets Extra Attack at level 6 (I have actually had an idea for one playing around in my head for awhile, similar flavor as Draconic but focusing on the martial with enhanced unarmed attacks in the form of claws, and maybe a Str based unarmored AC for the level 1 effect, one of the most notable empty niches is caster using unarmed as a fallback option).
Shield, Misty Step, and Absorb Elements, while all good are probably some of the most overvalued spells in the game. Shield in particular is interesting because if its generating real value (negating 2+ attacks per use), then you are quickly going to burn through spell slots. If it doesn't the amount HP it saves is probably on par with having Second Wind as an ability over an adventuring day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrum
Now in response to your other points:
1. Bladesingers can't dump anymore than Swords Bards can dump Cha, otherwise they lose a lot of their subclass bonuses.
2/3. Sorcadin is really the only thing that can dump its casting stat, and you are going all in on buff spells and smites if you do. And yeah Extra Attack makes a real difference in that case. I would be interested how much better it does over a pure martial below level 10. My instinct is it's probably not as much as you would think outside of a 5MWD. Also, it's a build going almost all in on one thing, it should be strong in its niche.
The mistake with Bladesingers was giving the cantrip replacing attack option at level 6, the original Bladesinger was pretty balanced. The cantrip ability should have probably come along side Song of Defense at level 10, or replaced Song of Victory.
Spiritual Weapon is the cleric's Extra Attack.
Druid doesn't have an as easy answer. I'm presuming you want to be yourself in melee. Moon Druid allows you to be all the melee warrior you want, but you're an animal which can affect your aesthetics. You can be an archer blaster druid with Order of the Stars. You get a bonus action radiant range attack allowing you to do a cantrip range attack. Produce Flame doesn't have good range but will do. There are options if you don't mind a saving throw cantrip attack. You do get Guiding Bolt as a spell with proficiency bonus free castings.
Personal bias I'm playing a Stars Druid in a game and having fun playing a druid without feeling like I'm a druid. If you do want to feel spiritualistic prepare elemental spells and pretend you're the Avatar. Going into a constellation is your Avatar State.
Regarding clerics, half of them get some type of extra damage to go with their attacks at level 8. (The ones who get heavy armor at level 1. The others get their cantrips boosted instead.) I always thought that was a sort of substitute for extra attack.
Depends on what you want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurald Galain
I played human death cleric with magic initiate and took green flame blade and booming blade as cantrips.
When I reached level 8 I was doing 1d8+5 with my weapon, adding divine strike for 1d8 necrotic plus 1d8 thunder/fire from booming blade/green flame blade. To supplement that I could add 21 necrotic damage with my channel divinity twice per short rest. So the standard was 3d8+5 damage with damage spikes of 3d8+26. On top of that I was usually running spiritual weapon for extra 1d8+4 dmg as a bonus action. Decent AC with medium armor and shield and just for fun you could have active spells like spirit guardians for extra damage.
At level 11 I was doing 4d8+modifer and level 14 5d8+modifier and touch of death scales really well with 2xCleric level+5 So you'll be better at smiting than the paladin. Level 5 paladin smite 3d8 for 13.5 average damage 2x per day, level 5 death priest smite 15 damage 1x per short rest, level 9 paladin gets his 3rd level slot and can smite for 18 damage 2x per day and 13.5 3x per day. Death priest at same level 23 damage 2x per short rest.
So yes you can make a decent melee priest if you want to, then you are a full caster as well.
I've had Moon Druids in my game being decent frontline fighters, great at tanking at least doing great damage at low level and petering off after level 5 but still doing great. The moon druid in my game is Moon Druid 8/Monk 1 and has gotten her Wisdom up to +5 so most of her forms have 15+ in AC.
There are other melee builds for druids that rely on Shillelagh but to make them decent I think you have to multiclass.