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Batman's Bane: The Joker
Okay, by now just about everyone knows that Batman referrs to a Wizard constructed with a certain individual's guide in mind, eschewing blasty damage for status effects, crowd control, and finding more ways to get out of any situation than any other class.
So, how do you combat this? How can a GM challenge a Batman Wizard? The answer, my friend, lies in the humble Bard.
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This idea came to me whilst watching Dark Knight on DVD. I started wondering how to stat out the Joker from that movie, and how he would compare to a Batman Wizard, and how he would adapt to the D&D setting. So the build I have here is really more of a specific character build, but many of the concepts that lie herin can give Bards a much-needed boost.
I am creating this build as a concept, fitting form and flavor of the Joker. The greatest inspiration I had was the Joker from Dark Knight, although there are a few other 'jokers' which I pulled a bit of form and fluff from. The build is actually fairly powerful, in a sub-optimized sort of way, but the point isn't to be 'the best of the best of the best'. While I would greatly appreciate any and all feedback and suggestions, I won't break away from the 'flavor' that I've built up.
The Joker is a concept build, specifically envisioned to be a BBEG. He's not supposed to be able to walk up to a Batman Wizard and kill him. He's supposed to challenge Batman. He does this best by being nowhere near Batman, and by being impossible to predict. He is the counter to Batman. If Batman can counter any threat he can prepare for, then the Joker is the one person who can always come up with something Batman didn't prepare for. After all, even Batman has a limited number of spells he can cast per day.
The Joker, as a BBEG, is designed to not only counter Batman Wizard, but his party as well. After all, we couldn't play with him all the time and not let others get in the game, can we? While he is specifically built to counter most of what Batman can do, this is because Batman is going to be the most powerful person in the group. He is also a significant pain in the side for any CoDZilla or UberCharger as well.
The Concept
Okay, so we're trying to build the Joker. What, exactly, does he do that makes him such a pain in the neck to Batman? Toys? Naw, Batman has more toys than the Joker (Where does he get all those toys?). Badd-assery? Nope, Batman whups up on Joker every time they get into a confrontation. So what is it, then?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.
Second, Joker always has another trick up his sleeve. No matter how many things Batman takes into account and plans for, no matter how close to finally nabbing the Joker... there's always that last trick the Joker has up his sleeve to get away.
Third, he has no morals whatsoever. He has no rules, no limitations. He is prepared to do anything and everything to further his goals. He is quite decidedly Chaotic Evil. He is an agent of chaos, and there is not the slightest bit of doubt that he is nearly the iconic personification of Evil. He would not hesitate in the slightest to use any moral standard Batman might have, and throw it right back in Batman's face. Blowing up villages is just plain fun. Assassinating important persons is what he gets his jollies out of. Kicking puppies is old hat.
Moreover, he uses people. He uses them a lot. He'll twist their little plans on themselves. And he has no qualms about killing his minions or sending them on suicide missions either.
He is very tricksey, my precious. Nothing is as it seems when you're facing the Joker. Illusion, deception, and trickery are all things that he is addicted to. Furthermore, he is able to fool even the ultimate researcher into preparing wrongly for an encounter.
Game Mechanics
Okay, so now that we have a concept, we need to figure out how to impliment it.
We're sure he needs the following:
1) Insane Bluff/IntimidateDiplomancy checks
2) A way of bypassing Detect Lies or Compelling Truth
3) A way of being immune to scrying
4) A way of 'keeping tabs' on everything that is going on
5) Charm/Dominate effects would certainly be fitting
6) Illusion spells are also key, although trying to find a way to make them impervious to True Sight will be difficult.
7) 'NO' buttons
So, Bard.
Wait, why bard? It's one of the weaker classes in the PhB. Perhaps not the weakest, but still nothing close to the power of the Wizard class his opponent will be using.
Because it's deliciously devious.
First off, Perform (Oratory). Nothing says that when he is talking, he can't be making both Perform Oratory checks AND Bluff checks. With a use of Bardic Music to Facinate, he can then use Suggestion, which is entirely fitting for his character.
Glibness. This spell alone makes the entire concept workable.
Now he needs to be immune to mind affecting and divination... wait, no he doesn't. The only divination he needs to worry about is Discern Location. The rest of them allow a Will save, which he can more than easily beat, thanks to a simple feat that lets him use his Cha mod for Will saves.
He doesn't need Contingency to have get away plans, nor does he need it to be able to make Get Out Of Anything cards and NO buttons. He just needs a little... ingenuity.
EDIT: Joker no longer needs high-level spells to do what he needs to do. The PrC Spymaster is a great way of bypassing such requirements. And he'd probably be better off with False Vision anyways.
Build *UPDATED*
Changling Rogue1/Bard19
Relevant Spells:
Glibness, of course
Most of the Charm/Dominate spells
Freedom of Movement
Detect Scry
False Vision
Relevant Feats:
Force of Personality (lets him use his high CHA mod for Will saves... like against Scrying)
Changling Racial Feat to bypass any on-the-spot scrying (since most parties just use Detect Evil or maybe Detect Thoughts to make sure the BBEG isn't hiding around, low enough to be affected by it)
Subsonics (negates verbal cues from magic/music)
EDIT: Mind Blank may not be as necessary as I once thought, and most of the other wiz/sorc spells he won't be needing. If a way to counter Discern Location can be found, he may not need any PrC's at all, and just be a straight Bard!
Tactics
Okay, so we know he can't go toe to toe with Batman. No one can. So how can he be a challenge?
Time Pressure. Kidnap someone/steal something dearly important. Send a Message telling Batman that if he doesn't stop him in (time period of less than one day), he'll kill/destroy it.
Doing this isn't hard. A simple Suggestion will suffice to get most people to put themselves in a position sufficently compromising as to be able to be kidnapped. Guards on items can be Dominated long enough to surrender said item. He can also, thanks to the Rogue substitution-level, take 10 on any social skill. This guy is a master of manipulation, it's the one thing he does better than even Batman.
This puts a severe cramp in Batman's style. Batman, optimally, has enough time to determine what is going on and why, and prepare for it. This means he has to do it quickly, opening up chance for error.
Joker also is a master of misdirection. True Sight can foil any illusion... but it is still up to Batman to be able to correctly interpret what he truly sees. It won't see through Disguise checks, however.
As long as Joker can keep Batman dancing to his tune and keep Batman from being able to withdraw and re-prepare, he will have the advantage.
And, of course, as the Joker is the nemesis of Batman, so too should it be played by the nemesis of any Batman Wizard's player... the GM. Yep, that's right... the Joker is the BBEG designed to challenge any pre-epic Batman.
He's not an 'uber' caster, although he does steal some of Batman's tricks with regards to spellcasting, mostly to counter what Batman can do and to give himself more escape routes. He's a decent Skillmonkey, but that's not his focus.
He's a Mastermind type villian. He's got disposable minions. That's one of the ways he keeps from getting scried and locked down. Batman Wizard can't figure out what disposable minion the Joker is going to use for his next nefarious nemesis nullifier, and he can't scry Joker, so he just has to wait until something happens, then react. Exactly what a Batman Wizard is worst at.
He should never try to go 'toe to toe' with the party, that's not where his specialties work the best. The party will have to go after the Joker, who will either be in another castle, or you'll have to go through his Funhouse to get to him, using various means of negating methods of bypassing said Funhouse.
He is the ultimate counter to scrying. With Detect Scry and False Vision, he can fool ANY divination used to get information on him, except Discern Location. Even with Discern Location, it only gives the city he's in. So what? So's a few hundred others. Find the one needle in the very big haystack, particularly when the needle can become hay.
Your Help Requested
Right now, I'm using Sublime Chord mostly because I don't have a better way of bypassing ANY form of Scrying, and setting up Contingency to help him get away. If there is any way you know of to get these things without resorting to Sublime Chord, I'll take it, just to be able to prove that you don't need to be an uber caster to be able to challenge Batman.
Contributions
Calemyr found a way to bypass most forms of divination neatly without using magic. It's not foolproof, but it's a hell of a lot better than anything I've come up with so far, aside from Mind Blank. And since the only spell you need Mind Blank to counter is an 8th level spell, this is easily one of the best ways to go about making Joker Bard invisible to the party.
Upon further research, the Changling racial feat that makes this workable is only effective up to 3rd level spells. However, this concept is exactly the direction I'm wanting to go with tis.
Spoiler
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Calemyr
This reminds me of a BBEG I've been playing with in case I ever DM a campaign: a changeling Bard. Very similar to the Joker in that his specialty would be taking the form of would-be pawns and using a combination of warped logic and persuasion to convince them that he was actually them and that they were the BBEG. In other words, every group the party finds themselves in conflict with is led by someone who honestly believes that they themselves are the mastermind. All the while the Bard is watching on, sometimes even in plain sight as timid guardsman #3 or the BBEG's well-meaning-but-misled girlfriend. It'd be like one big "I am Spartacus" scene for the villain!
The Bard wouldn't have the brute strength or awesome arcane power to overcome every conflict, but he wouldn't need it. Instead, he simply mindscrews people into doing his bidding without ever showing his face. Fighting him would be like punching fog because you're never sure if you caught the real one this time.
There are two feats that make this as dangerous as it could be. One allows a bard to cast magic as part of a perform check (and he'd have oratory or acting as perform skills). The other one is a changeling specific feat that lets them create a temporary persona for their assumed form - which means that detect thoughts/alignment/lies would be ineffective against him when he's in character. (To make things even more amusing, make his one of his alter-egos one of the party... My Own Worst Enemy, DND Style.)
Gaurd Juris found a legitimate bypass for most scrying effects.
Spoiler
Show
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gaurd Juris
You might want to check out the spymaster prestiege class in the complete adventurer. It doesn't boost caster level at all, but it does give you the following:
Big bonuses on disguise (and bluff)
The ability to rapidly change disguises
A bonus on saves vs. scrying
Magic Aura as a SLA to disguise magic items
The ability to fool scrying and detect thoughts with false info
Undetectable Alignment
All useful to the joker.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I'm not enough of a 3.5 buff to tell whether this guy would actually threaten a well-built "Batman" wizard ...
But damn. This hits the Joker's character right on the head.
Forcing Batman to react instead of plan is why the Joker remains Batman's nemesis. Not because of any ridiculous fighting ability (that's what Bane is) or meeting Batman's Xanatos Gambits with his own (that's what Hush is) or anything like that: his power is just that he's almost totally unpredictable. Oh, and he can always talk himself out of too much trouble.
As you say ... Bard.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Very nice! I mean, it won't actually beat a Tippy Wizard, but NOTHING can. :smalltongue:
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
The plan.
RP-wise, he should be running under a Xanatos Roulette. Even if Batman figures out his angle, the Joker should have a contingency directly correlated to that eventuality. And a wise-cracking one too. Seeing as how the Joker always seems to have the finances for his crazy schemes (a giant gumball-shooting tank? I mean, really?), there should be sticky traps, poisonous candy shoved down your throat, etc. He is devious, and a rogue should have to spend upwards of an hour disarming all the traps in a single room.
Don't kill me just yet. (Ubercharger angle)
As for keeping himself alive versus uberchargers, how about elusive strike? The Joker seems to take hits pretty smartly (unless dealt by Batman).
My two cents on two angles.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
Signmakerens
(a giant gumball-shooting tank? I mean, really?),
Great, now I can't stop thinking about a taffy golem.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
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Originally Posted by
kladams707
Great, now I can't stop thinking about a taffy golem.
...Clayface?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Signmakerens
...Clayface?
I suppose, though I don't think he'd be as tasty.
As for the joker idea, me likey.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I think his strategy for "don't kill me yet" should just be making sure the party knows they have to capture him alive. If they kill him, he's just going to refuse Speak With Dead and any Raise attempts. The ubercharger can't afford to attack him for fear of killing him.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
You've got a great idea, and the only ones which can't be countered by most of the pro-batman posts I've seen on these forums. There is only one weakness I see: Batman has to care. He has to care about either the people or the things that your Joker threatens. Any significant item which the Joker obtains could be said to be not significant enough to bother the Batman were it to be missing. Why? Because anything above the "Batman cares" threshold will be with Batman at all times. And don't we all know that the Batman Wizard care for no person other than himself? He lives in a tiny hut in a dimension far from any possible threat, and only interacts with mortals when he wants to. I don't think there is a Commissioner Gorden for the 3.x version of the Batman, no man may summon him, and he does not fight crime unless there's something in it for him. And he could care less that there's a Joker out there gunning for him, because he knows that no Joker will ever be as powerful as he.
This is, at least, my understanding of the Batman. He doesn't exist in my world, because I now play 4e. :smallbiggrin: He never existed in my prior worlds, because any GM I ran with would have just grabbed a nerf stick rather than deal with such a thought experiment possibly taking real form.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Good point. Eventually Joker will do his stuff enough to threaten something the Batman cares about - but wait. Batman keeps everything he cares about in his hut.
Sounds like the typical Batman has no nemeses and no friends, so the Joker's activities are ignored.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Just one point:
In the comics, the films and that corny Adam West show, Batman defeats the Joker. Always.
Methinks you need a more appropriate name for your build.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
It's not really viable... First of all, Joker is smarter than Batman. Bard is not smarter than the Wizard. So, if you do use the RP approach, keep in mind that an average mid-level Wizard has Int 24 (mine has 26 at lvl 10, but whatever), and wouldn't really fall for those tricks.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Just one point:
In the comics, the films and that corny Adam West show, Batman defeats the Joker. Always.
Methinks you need a more appropriate name for your build.
You mean Batman beats up and imprisons that clown dude?
You must be mistaken. That is one of the Joker's minions. Adam West doesn't know the depth of the preparation.
EDIT:
Spoiler
Show
Alfred is the real Joker.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
It's not really viable... First of all, Joker is smarter than Batman. Bard is not smarter than the Wizard. So, if you do use the RP approach, keep in mind that an average mid-level Wizard has Int 24 (mine has 26 at lvl 10, but whatever), and wouldn't really fall for those tricks.
SmartER? Maybe around the same level, but smarter is pushing it. The Joker's an intelligent guy, but his strength is in defying conventional logic and rationality, which is what allows Batman to defeat foes he has no business defeating.
Also, my understanding of the ability scores is that WIS would define gullibility, not INT.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
The Joker's an intelligent guy, but his strength is in defying conventional logic and rationality, which is what allows Batman to defeat foes he has no business defeating.
Yes, but here we're talking about a Bard and a Wizard, who are in no way similar to Joker and Batman.
Quote:
Also, my understanding of the ability scores is that WIS would define gullibility, not INT.
I somehow doubt that Bards have high Wis...
Problem with this approach is that it's too abstract. You can't really say that the best way to defeat the Batman Wizard is you think of a clever scheme, because the player can't really act as his way-beyond-human-intelligence alter ego would.
And also if you look at some Joker's ideas, you'll notice they're downright silly (as in, there's no way that someone could predict that turn of events) and can only work in comics/movies, since there it's scripted how is Batman going to act. You as a DM could never ever predict what your player is going to do, and you'll end up doing the same as him, reacting at some player's unusual idea.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
And also if you look at some Joker's ideas, you'll notice they're downright silly (as in, there's no way that someone could predict that turn of events) and can only work in comics/movies, since there it's scripted how is Batman going to act. You as a DM could never ever predict what your player is going to do, and you'll end up doing the same as him, reacting at some player's unusual idea.
Well, if a Batman is a practice in smart PC-building, then the Joker becomes a practice in smart DM-contingencies. After all, the hardest part about being a DM is coping with player entropy.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Well, the point is sort of moot anyway. But it's still a very cool concept.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Well, if a Batman is a practice in smart PC-building, then the Joker becomes a practice in smart DM-contingencies. After all, the hardest part about being a DM is coping with player entropy.
I agree, but making a list of spells to use and enterprising an elaborate scheme which might and might not work is not the same.
This idea is sort of like Monk (no, I don't want to start yet another monk argument, I'm just paraphrasing). It all looks nice and cool on paper, and when you try to practically apply it, it just doesn't work.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Yes, but here we're talking about a Bard and a Wizard, who are in no way similar to Joker and Batman.
Except in how they are in some ways similar, as both the original Batman idea and this thread show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
I somehow doubt that Bards have high Wis...
Don't have to. Wizards don't generally either.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Except in how they are in some ways similar, as both the original Batman idea and this thread show.
Batman idea does work, because it's just an approach aptly named Batman, because he's always full of gadgets, ready for everything etc. Which translates into game terms as 'don't be a blaster'. You can't really make a viable opponent for a Wizard just by calling him Joker and making clever schemes.
And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.
There are just too many ways around it.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I think we can assume that this is meant for a game in which the Wizard player is actually engaged and interested, and thus isn't just shutting down everything. Batman/Joker dynamic definitely does work here, but you need to have players engaged enough for there to be enough emotional impact.
Also, there's another class that may actually work here - Psion Telepath. They get the social skills from their discipline, and they have all kinds of interesting mental-influencing abilities. Of course, they don't really have as much in the way of illusions, but a well-built Telepath is both incredibly intelligent and capable of flaying the minds of people on a whim.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Even if he weren't actively engaged already, a high-level wizard is pretty darn legendary. Which makes him - and by extension things that he cares about - subject to a Bardic Knowledge check.
Consider it for a moment. Joker always knows which buttons to push to get on Batman's nerves. How does he know? Not from smarts or research. A Bardic Knowledge check would be a pretty good mechanical stand-in for the kind of lunatic intuition that the Joker seems to have.
Quote:
And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.
There are just too many ways around it.
Does the Joker ever kidnap someone assuming Batman isn't going to show up?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
And like someone said already, Batman always find a way to turn the tables.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
And like someone said already, Batman always find a way to turn the tables.
Which is further why the Joker concept here is good. It's not supposed to be an insurmountable challenge, but it is one that will cause a lot of trouble for the part.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Batman idea does work, because it's just an approach aptly named Batman, because he's always full of gadgets, ready for everything etc. Which translates into game terms as 'don't be a blaster'. You can't really make a viable opponent for a Wizard just by calling him Joker and making clever schemes.
And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.
There are just too many ways around it.
Sorry, the place the person is being held is teleport proof.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kurald Galain
Just one point:
In the comics, the films and that corny Adam West show, Batman defeats the Joker. Always.
Methinks you need a more appropriate name for your build.
Gads, I'm sick of that response.
Works great in comics and other things where a plot is scripted, but not-so-much in role-playing games (excluding heavily rail-roading games).
Especially since the ShneekeyTheLost stated that the build is for a villain to challenge the batman, and do it with style, not to destroy him.
By those standards, I think the build achieves it's aims quite well. And with style. Lots of style :smallcool:
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Batman idea does work, because it's just an approach aptly named Batman, because he's always full of gadgets, ready for everything etc. Which translates into game terms as 'don't be a blaster'. You can't really make a viable opponent for a Wizard just by calling him Joker and making clever schemes.
Actually, the whole reason why I built him as a bard was to bypass most of the ways Batman uses to become more powerful than any given encounter... his ability to do his research first.
Quote:
And if you do try that kidnap someone approach, if I were that wizard, I'd just Scry on that person, or cast Locate Object, or Locate Person or pay a Cleric to cast Commune/Divine and then just teleport there.
There are just too many ways around it.
May I direct you to a spell on the Bard list called False Vision? Scry away. Please, by all means, scry away. A lower-level Bard spell is Detect Scry. So drop both down. Batman scries, Joker senses this and starts his puppet show in motion for Batman's viewing pleasure. Then, when Batman pops in, he finds himself with a full spell list prepared for the exact wrong circumstances.
Also, with Mind Blank up, Joker himself cannot be scried. Since he moves around a lot, you can't scry his 'headquarters' because he doesn't have one until he walks into a random building and sets up temporary shop. He improvises with materials he has on hand, so again, nothing TO scry.
Batman is always ready for anything... but not even Batman can be ready for everything. See how useful he is when he's prepared for the wrong scenario... still powerful, granted, but not game-shatteringly powerful.
Also, Ubercharger won't be able to do anything unless Ubercharger is completely immune to Mind Affecting. Joker's Will Save DC's are horrid. Also, Joker will likely be picking at him if he has any FB levels, forcing him to frenzy over and over again with no viable threats other than his allies. Even if Ubercharger is immune to mind-affecting... that's why he has Forcecage, forcing Ubercharger to have a Time-Out.
In the spell description of Legend Lore...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRD
As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.
so Bardic Knowledge checks aside, Joker's got a way of getting all KINDS of info on the PC's.
For the suggestion of using a Telepath... I did consider that long and hard, however it just doesn't have the flash and dash that Joker had, not to mention not nearly as good at non-spell(psionic) means of suggestability. Joker, as built, can walk into an AMF, convince the Samurai acting under direct orders from the Shogun that he had gravely dishonored his family and his leige, and furthermore convince the Samurai to commit seppiku. He's that damn good. Without magic.
That's the other thing about Joker. He's not reliant on Magic for everything. Sure, it really helps level the playing field vs Batman, but he doesn't need to use magic at all to get most of his plans started.
And as to how the Joker can get a Batman Wizard's attention who doesn't care about anything... wave an artifact under his nose and see if he doesn't jump too it. That type wants more power... show him a way where he can get more, and he'll go headlong right into it.
And finally... Yes, Batman always defeats Joker. Always. That's not the point. Joker is a BBEG. He's supposed to be beaten by the PC's. Yet he's also got enough tricks in his bag to be able to escape, even in defeat. And he's bad enough to be a constant pain in the PC's side. Thus... the Bane of their existance. Bane doesn't mean 'will kill', after all. It means 'the counter to'. Joker negates or nerfs most of Batman's more blatant 'I Win' buttons.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Hmm... nonmagically, what am I missing that the Bard has to give him potent social boosts the Psion doesn't get outside of just an inherently much higher Charisma? I guess easier access to skills, but I think the Telepath has all the important social ones and while he doesn't get a lot of skill points a level, his intelligence should make up for it pretty well.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I like it. It would be really, really fun to play a wizard against this guy, or hell, a whole party with this bard as the BBEG. Especially with the Shadow [school] spells and illusions you could lead the party to believe they're facing an epic wizard... to run into an epic Bard. And Bards can diplomance any allies they may need to take out this wizard.
Also, yes, a wizard who sits on his own demiplane completely ignoring the material plane is immune to the effects of the joker. But so what? Why are you even playing if all you're going to do is sit on a plane chuckling about how impossible it is for anyone to hurt you?
Don't forget people, D&D is a game. We play it to have fun and participate in a story. It's why DMs don't have to expressly say "no pun-pun."
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Also, with Mind Blank up, Joker himself cannot be scried. Since he moves around a lot, you can't scry his 'headquarters' because he doesn't have one until he walks into a random building and sets up temporary shop. He improvises with materials he has on hand, so again, nothing TO scry.
Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells? :smallconfused:
Quote:
Actually, the whole reason why I built him as a bard was to bypass most of the ways Batman uses to become more powerful than any given encounter... his ability to do his research first.
I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:
Quote:
Then, when Batman pops in, he finds himself with a full spell list prepared for the exact wrong circumstances.
Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.
So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Behold_the_Void
Hmm... nonmagically, what am I missing that the Bard has to give him potent social boosts the Psion doesn't get outside of just an inherently much higher Charisma? I guess easier access to skills, but I think the Telepath has all the important social ones and while he doesn't get a lot of skill points a level, his intelligence should make up for it pretty well.
High Charisma + high social skills. I thought that the Bardic Music was (Ex), but upon further examination, I realize it's (SU) and (SP).
Bard is even better than Telepath outside of AMF due to Facinate/Suggestion from Bardic Music without even touching his spell list. Plus the spell Glibness is a +30 to Bluff check, and can bypass effects which sense falsehood or compel truth.
I fail to see what a Telepath has over the Bard for his chosen profession. Bards can Dominate and Charm just as well, and probably do it more times per day. They also are better at gathering information on the PC's.
Granted, the Telepath is probably better for in-combat 'will save or be my slave', but that's kind of rude for a BBEG, because no PC wants their character to be taken away from him.
Is there something I may have missed?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
My post. Last on the first page.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells? :smallconfused:
Check the build again. Sublime Chord is a Bard PrC that grants access to up to 9th level Wiz/Sorc spells.
Quote:
I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:
Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.
I was thinking more along the lines of seeing a bunch of clerics/monks, so he prepares with a bunch of things like Enervation (which is just a damn handy spell regardless), only to find himself facing Wights... which are immune to... everything you just listed (well, 50% on the Orbs).
Quote:
So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.
oh no... all those buffs! Oh wait... Mordicane's Disjunction! What buffs?
Hell, even a Greater Dispel Magic works just fine to strip buffs quickly. And I also notice you failed to mention anything which can bypass Illusions... bad mistake.
I think you're still missing the point, after it was in the OP, and several people have pointed it out to you.
The point of Joker is not to defeat Batman... it is to challenge him. To quote the movie: "I don't want to kill you. I wouldn't know what I would do without you!". No one is saying a well equipped Batman Wizard could defeat Joker Bard... if Bats could ever FIND him. The problem is Joker won't be there. He'll be somewhere else, watching with Prying Eyes, and laughing his arse off.
The point is... The Joker build I've made can make Batman blow more spells and waste more slots in poorly prepared slots than just about anything else. By the end of the day vs Joker plots, Batman Wizard is actually OUT of spells, instead of having three-quarters of his spells left.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
oh no... all those buffs! Oh wait... Mordicane's Disjunction! What buffs?
Once again... Bards can't cast that! No Mind Blanks, no Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, those are Wizard spells!
Quote:
And I also notice you failed to mention anything which can bypass Illusions... bad mistake.
True Seeing? How will your Bard see through Superior Invisibility?
Quote:
I was thinking more along the lines of seeing a bunch of clerics/monks, so he prepares with a bunch of things like Enervation (which is just a damn handy spell regardless), only to find himself facing Wights... which are immune to... everything you just listed (well, 50% on the Orbs).
First of all, no Batman would ever do such a thing and spend all his 4th lvl slots on one spell. He'd just prepare chained, twinned, empowered version which takes up 1 slot of a higher lvl.
Second of all, meet Corpse Candle (a standard Batman spell, also). Now your Wights aren't incorporeal and entirely vulnerable to a polymorphed/shapechanged monstrosity. Not even buffs are nessessary, just cast Body of War and that one spell made a wizard immune to most stuff anyways.
Even if a wizard doesn't prepare that spell, he should have a scroll of it. Or Alacritous Cogitation feat.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
It's a nice idea, with the fundamental flaw that the Joker is only alive because Batman won't kill him. I don't think there are many PC's who share that compunction, and especially not of the "I'm a paranoid high-level wizard" variety. You might be able to trick him or force the player to use his own brains rather than just scrying, but he's still going to kill you the first time you meet.
Imagine how well the Joker would work as a villain if Batman carried an assault rifle and used it without hesitation. That's basically how the average group of PC's will handle it.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Once again... Bards can't cast that! No Mind Blanks, no Mordenkainen's Disjunctions, those are Wizard spells!
Sublime Chord. Please read Shneekey's posts more attentively.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Oh come on, that's 19th lvl, it's jut a notch below Epic. With Gates and all that shananigans, that's not even a challenge.
And I thought you people were serious. :smallconfused:
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Nonetheless, your "Bards can't cast that!" exclamation was wrong. Sheekey explained the use of Sublime Chord in the very first post of this thread, and you should read closely what you attempt to dismantle.
As far as flavor is concerned I consider the Joker described herein excellent.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Ok, everything else is more or less viable... But this? Bards now have access to lvl 8 Wizard spells? :smallconfused:
I'm playing a Batman wizard for quite some time now and when I do have the time to do the research I change... 3-4 spells I prepare, at the most (If I know we're facing a red Dragon, I'll prepare Mass Fire Shield and perhaps a few others, but why would I change other 20 spells, the encounter isn't gonna last that long anyway?). Out of 20+, because some spells are either mandatory or good in any given situation. So this:
Doesn't work either. Sure, I won't prepare Stinking Cloud if I see a bunch of undead and end up fighting... Babaus, but Solid Fog, Black Tentacles, Slow, Flesh to Ice, Unluck, Zone of Peace, Web, Orbs work on virtually everything and these are spells which no sane Batman would ever want off his memorized spell list. And these are only spells up to lvl 5.
So, in reality, you'll manage to fool the Wizard to waste some of his spells, but even without those he'll be more than a match. God forbid he spends a couple of rounds buffing (under Greater/Superior Invisibility, of course) and you find yourself facing a polymorphed, stoneskinned, heroismed, hasted, dragonskinned, hearth of earthed, mirror imaged, fearsome grappled, mage armored, shielded, karmic aura'd Huge, with AC well into 30s, angry wizard. Once again these are only spells up to 5th lvl. It get's worse, since that Bard of yours is at least 13th lvl (lvl 5th bard spells), meaning lvl 7 wizard spells, which I'm sure are awful.
He's a Sublime Cord, so he has 9th level casting.
Edit: Ninja'd!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ShneekeyTheLost
High Charisma + high social skills. I thought that the Bardic Music was (Ex), but upon further examination, I realize it's (SU) and (SP).
Bard is even better than Telepath outside of AMF due to Facinate/Suggestion from Bardic Music without even touching his spell list. Plus the spell Glibness is a +30 to Bluff check, and can bypass effects which sense falsehood or compel truth.
I fail to see what a Telepath has over the Bard for his chosen profession. Bards can Dominate and Charm just as well, and probably do it more times per day. They also are better at gathering information on the PC's.
Granted, the Telepath is probably better for in-combat 'will save or be my slave', but that's kind of rude for a BBEG, because no PC wants their character to be taken away from him.
Is there something I may have missed?
Outside an AMF plenty of options, yes, but don't necessarily rule out the telepath. I will say the Bard is subtler, which is definitely a point in their favor, but don't doubt the lasting power of a Telepath. You can get your PP up and if you have to, you can throw out the big guns more often than needed.
Not saying Bard is bad for this, it's not in the least, but I still think the Telepath is viable for another take on the archetype, probably more in the brutal mind-ripping vein.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Yeah, but that means that Wizard he's trying to challenge is also at least 17th lvl, and not subject to the worries of the mortal world.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
The problem is the party can'tbe scry'ed on either once level 15 rolls along, so Jokr can't make plan that well either. Also, if you want Joker to be smart, then use Beguiler instead of Bard.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
You guys are also forgetting scrolls and specifically the spell Anticipate Teleportation, Greater (Spell Compendium pg 13) which gives the Joker plenty of time to do fun things like move an acid bath under where they players are going to land and then leave himself. They pop into a jokerless room, if he's smart a Dimentional Lock comes into effect, and they players then have to find their way out of a trapped warehouse full of goons that they probably aren't prepared for in order to escape.
(also again this isn't meant to be unwinnable just annoying as **** to such a twinked out character)
Then again personally I prefer creative use of blaster Wizards (re. Lightning Bolt the roof, Disintegrate the ground under the guy with spell resistance, and Summon an earth elemental in the ceiling to drop on the enemy)
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
The idea here isn't to Scry on the Batman or his party, it's a tool for DM's to manipulate Batman characters by kidnapping important NPC's, threatening important infrastructure or items, and so on and so forth. THe point is not that Batman can't be scryed on, Joker doesn't care, the point is that Joker can't be scryed on, and therefore, cannot be predicted. Which throws Batmans main power for a loop.
Not to mention, with Sublime Chord, Joker has access to all kinds of fun little things like Dimensional Anchor and the high level spells, not to mention probably a seriously high UMD check.
Yes, Batman can kill the Joker, but this Joker knows that this Batman will kill him, and will act accordingly by not being around when things go down, he acts through proxy and doesn't give a rats hindquarters what happens to those proxies after they act.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Frosty
The problem is the party can'tbe scry'ed on either once level 15 rolls along, so Jokr can't make plan that well either. Also, if you want Joker to be smart, then use Beguiler instead of Bard.
Yes, I was also wondering if Beguiler might be a better (or equally good) base for this Joker build?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
One could probably stat out a pretty solid "Rogue's Gallery" with good analogies.
Beguiler and Telepath are good options. Factotum (possibly Factotum/Chameleon) could probably work. There are a couple of ToB options that should be explored, and CoDzilla's could find a way to be a challenge too. Yes, you need at least partial casters (or UMD) to be a decent threat to high level parties, but these types of characters could do it.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BardicDuelist
One could probably stat out a pretty solid "Rogue's Gallery" with good analogies.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
We've already had "the Batman Wizard" and "does that makes Sorcerors Robin" and "should Superman be a Paladin" and no doubt several others I've forgotten.
What we need is a new meme! Every time you use a superhero analogy to describe a DnD class, God kills Catwoman. Won't someone, please, think of Catwoman!
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hewhosaysfish
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
We've already had "the Batman Wizard" and "does that makes Sorcerors Robin" and "should Superman be a Paladin" and no doubt several others I've forgotten.
What we need is a new meme! Every time you use a superhero analogy to describe a DnD class, God kills Catwoman. Won't someone, please, think of Catwoman!
Someone needs to post a guide to Being Aquaman, focused on making and playing a character that is effective underwater and nowhere else.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Telonius
Even if he weren't actively engaged already, a high-level wizard is pretty darn legendary. Which makes him - and by extension things that he cares about - subject to a Bardic Knowledge check.
Consider it for a moment. Joker always knows which buttons to push to get on Batman's nerves. How does he know? Not from smarts or research. A Bardic Knowledge check would be a pretty good mechanical stand-in for the kind of lunatic intuition that the Joker seems to have.
I like this a lot.
Quote:
Does the Joker ever kidnap someone assuming Batman isn't going to show up?
And this I like even more. Of course he knows the Batman Wizard will scry on whomever he's kidnapped. That's why, when the Batman Wizard teleports in, he'll set off numerous overly-complicated death traps and mindbending illusions. The Joker Bard? He's not even necessarily there: he's set up a Magic Mouth or similar to taunt the Batman Wizard, laughing maniacally as the Batman Wizard, in attempting to save the kidnappee, sets off the very death trap that kills the kidnappee.
All in all, I really like this idea for a BBEG.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Mm, just the concept makes me laugh.
Cheese v. Cheese: Diplomancer v. Meta-magic reducing, broken spell slinging wizard. Not that the Joker necessarily needs to be a Diplomancer, just that he could and it would be hilarious.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I like this idea. I've always thought that the one place it hurts to be hit for for the Batman is, like for all other nerds, socially, and this Joker does that very thing.
How does he work in earlier levels though? What kind of items should one choose?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I just like the fact that the only way someone has come up with for this to "not be a challenge" is to use a wizard build so full of cheese that almost any DM would ban it immediately.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TempusCCK
even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.
This is one of those things that defeats the purpose of D&D. At this point you may as well have a miniature of your character on a shelf and that's it.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
I didn't get time to say this before the last thread got the lock, but I really like the idea. It's very do-able and has great flavor.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
Yeah, but that means that Wizard he's trying to challenge is also at least 17th lvl, and not subject to the worries of the mortal world.
Which is why you get reasons for him to be worryed about this. And lot of the time, the partys don't shield them selfs from scyring that much. But then again this is an anti-Batman BBEG. It's meant to give the powergamer player a hard time, possibly as payback for the DM having to wait hours for the player to choose his spells for the day.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sholos
I just like the fact that the only way someone has come up with for this to "not be a challenge" is to use a wizard build so full of cheese that almost any DM would ban it immediately.
To be fair, this build is already abusing both 9th level casting and Diplomacy, two of the most broken things in the game -- they're not abusing 9th level casting to quite the degree that, say, Cindy is, but it's not like this was ever a cheese-free battle to begin with.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aquillion
To be fair, this build is already abusing both 9th level casting and Diplomacy, two of the most broken things in the game -- they're not abusing 9th level casting to quite the degree that, say, Cindy is, but it's not like this was ever a cheese-free battle to begin with.
In other words, the way to defeat a high-level arcane caster is by taking another high-level arcane caster :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TempusCCK
even then it's still a challenge, unless you go the "My wizard doesn't care about anything" route. In which case, that person has more problems than simply being a powergamer.
if one of my players ever created a character like this i'd let them.
then let them spectate on the game, after all their character doesn't care about anything, next session maybe they'll have a rational character made ready?
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Re: Batman's Bane: The Joker
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gorbash
So Joker doesn't really have to be a Bard at all, since he's using a bard prestige class in order to get what Wizards are getting. Why just not make a Wizard and call him Joker? He certainly won't be using diplomacy against NPCs, it can't be used against PCs, so there's really no point in him being a Bard. Other than proving that some other class can challenge/defeat a wizard. By using Wizard's spells.
Sorcerer's spells.
Yes, there is a difference.
And Ogre, I actually would have a lot of fun with a character who truly doesn't care about anything, and is only going along with the party because he's vaguely interested. Maybe an Artificer, who fluffs the "Hormunculus-in-a-hole" as a portal back to his rich family, who toss out gear for him on occasion. That rational enough?:smalltongue: