Turtle-taurs! [3.5 races, PEACH!]

Honu

Personality: Honu are a very calm, cool-blooded people. They aren’t fearless, certainly, but in their natural environment there are very few things that can actually hurt them. They make up their minds slowly and often prefer to sleep on any major decision to be made. They don’t say much, but when they open their mouths they speak with great wisdom.
Physical Description: Honu are a tauric people. Their bodies resemble those of very large tortoises, with shells perhaps five feet in length, with an upper body the size and proportion of a halfling’s emerging where the tortoise’s head would be. All exposed skin is covered with thick scales that sport short spiky protrusions on the legs and forearms. They have large eyes with armored eyelids and a beaklike mouth. The chest of the upper torso bears a number of hinged bony plates, and the back bears a much smaller shell. Males and females look virtually identical but for red spots behind the eyes of males. Their scales and shell are usually brown or dark yellow, with a variety of patterns ranging from stripes to specks to mottling. Honu will sometimes decorate their shells with paint, or more rarely, carvings. Originally this was a way of recording the Honu‘s history and accomplishments, but in recent times it has become more decorative than anything, though honu still refer to great deeds as shell-worthy. Honu are also known for their extremely long lives. They reach maturity at 100 years and age extremely slowly. Some elders are said to be thousands of years old. A honu can, theoretically, live forever, unless slain by some accident. Honu have an unusual taste for insect meat.
Relations: Honu get along well with most anyone, but they can find many of the shorter-lived races to be a bit tiring. They are extremely patient however. They often open trading routes with gnomes and will gladly trade with halflings that visit their settlements, as their tools are of roughly the right size for their hands.
Alignment: Honu are usually lawful and generally tend to be neutral. They are more likely to be good than evil, however.
{table]|L|N|C
G|15|10|5
N|30|20|5
E|10|5|0[/table]
Honu Lands: Honu primarily live in forested areas, though some settlements will spring up on grasslands or even in dry desert areas. Where they can, they farm leafy vegetables, grains, and fruit. Some will raise traditional livestock or even giant beetles for food. There are few honu cities, but those that do emerge often sport massive walls and imposing defenses.
Religion: Honu generally revere earth and water spirits, though some worship sun or nature gods.
Language: Honu rarely speak. Some have taken up speaking draconic, but most simply prefer common.
Names: Honu have several names. They have a clutch name, which is a name shared by all the brothers and sisters in a single clutch of eggs (4-10, usually). Children are raised collectively by the entire town, though often the actual parents are expected to take the brunt of responsibility for them. Often the children will have youth names, simple nicknames other honu will refer to them by until they become of age. When a honu reaches maturity and undergoes the coming of age, they gain an adult name, though often the youth name will still follow them.
Adventurers: Honu have a tradition of warriors and hunters, though their traditions are more focused on resilience and endurance. There are very few honu armies, but those that do exist are formidable forces with a focus on phalanx fighting and a slow, unstoppable push.

• +4 constitution, +2 wisdom, -4 dexterity
• Medium size: As Medium creatures, honu have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Monstrous Humanoid
• Base land speed is 20 feet
• +8 natural armor bonus
• Racial Hit Die: A honu begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit dice, a base attack bonus of +2, a base save bonus of +3 fort, +0 ref, and +3 will
• Racial Skills: A honu’s monstrous humanoids give it skill points equal to 5x(2+int modifier). A honu’s class skills are Hide, Listen, Spot, Survival, and Swim. A honu gains a +4 racial bonus to hide and swim checks.
• Racial Feats: A honu’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat.
• Tauric Form: A honu’s tauric body gives them some unique traits. Due to their proportionally smaller torso, a honu uses weapons designed for a creature one size category smaller. A honu gains a +4 bonus to ability check to resist bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground (but not while climbing, flying, swimming, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground. A honu counts as a quadruped for determining it's carrying capacity.
• Shell Protection: As a move action, a Honu can pull themselves back into their shell and close the bony plates to protect themselves almost completely. Doing so essentially grants the honu total cover within themselves. A huno cannot move, attack, or perform physical actions while inside his shell, but he may still perform purely mental actions and speak normally. A honu’s shell has an AC identical to the honu’s, but it gains no dodge, dexterity, or shield bonus to AC and the natural armor bonus is increased by +4. A honu’s shell has hardness equal to 5+their con mod and HP equal to 10+¼ their Maximum HP. The shell's HP heals very slowly, at a rate equal to 1/4 your natural healing rate (minimum 1). If a honu’s shell is broken, they loose cover immediately, they lose their fortified shell ability, their natural armor bonus decreases by 4, and they cannot pull back into their shell until the damage is repaired with a Heal or Regenerate spell. A honu can still be targeted by spells while retracted into their shell, by targeting the honu’s shell. A honu wearing armor spikes that pulls back into his shell takes damage as though grappling himself each round.
• Fortified Shell: A honu’s shell protects the majority of their organs. A honu targeted by a critical hit or sneak attack has a 50% chance to negate the extra damage of the attack.
• +1 LA

Ikahonu

Personality: Ikahonu are usually unpleasant to deal with. They live solitary lives and do not appreciate those who intrude upon their lairs or try to learn their secrets. They value self-reliance, resilience, and strength.
Physical Description: Ikahonu are a tauric people. Their bodies resemble those of very large turtles, with spikey shells perhaps eight feet in length, with an upper body the approximate size and proportion of a human’s emerging where the turtle’s head would be. All exposed skin is covered with thick scales that sport spiky protrusions on the legs and forearms. They have dark eyes with armored eyelids and a large, hooked, beaklike mouth. The nasal ridge runs all the way up to the forehead, and a short hornlike protrusion bears their nostrils on the tip. Their fingertips end in bony claws. The chest of the upper torso bears a number of hinged bony plates, and the back bears a much smaller shell. Males and females look virtually identical, though males are somewhat larger. Their scales and shell are usually somewhere between dark green, black, and dark brown. Ikahonu are also known for their extremely long lives. They reach maturity at 100 years and age extremely slowly. Some elders are said to be thousands of years old. A ikahonu can, theoretically, live forever, unless slain by some accident.
Relations: Ikahonu are solitary creatures. They generally dislike visitors and rarely gather in numbers or join in with other civilizations. They live in wild areas, and usually only come to settlements to trade fish they catch for tools or other sorts of meat before returning to their homes. A clutch of ikahonu is raised by their mother until they are ready to fend for themselves, which is usually around 75 years.
Alignment: Ikahonu are usually neutral. They may lean in one direction or another, but they rarely lean too far.
{table]|L|N|C
G |5|10|5
N |10|40|10
E |5|10|5[/table]
Ikahonu Lands: Ikahonu usually live in forested areas along the shores of rivers or swamps. Here they live out their days, catching fish, alligators, frogs, and shellfish, and whiling away the hours. They are very protective of their personal territory and will chase off most visitors unless they quickly give a good enough reason.
Religion: Ikahonu usually worship nature gods and water spirits, but rarely share their beliefs in any depth.
Language: Ikahonu speak little, but they most commonly speak common, and occasionally draconic.
Names: Ikahonu have three names. When young they are named by physical traits. Broadback, softshell, strongjaw, and the like. All the children in a clutch are given a collective clutch name. Then, when a child leaves, their mother gives them another name, this one is usually more based on mental traits or personality.
Adventurers: Ikahonu adventurers are very common. Barbarian and ranger are the most common.

• +6 strength, +6 constitution, -4 charisma, -4 dexterity, -2 intelligence
• Large size. As large creatures, ikahonu take a -1 penalty to Armor Class, a -1 penalty on attack rolls, a -4 penalty on Hide checks, and a +4 bonus on grapple checks, with lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
• Monstrous Humanoid
• Base land speed is 20 feet
• +8 natural armor bonus
• Natural Weapons: Bite (1d8) and two claws (1d4)
• Racial Hit Die: An ikahonu begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit dice, a base attack bonus of +2, a base save bonus of +3 fort, +0 ref, and +3 will
• Racial Skills: An ikahonu’s monstrous humanoids give it skill points equal to 5x(2+int modifier). An ikahonu’s class skills are Hide, Listen, Spot, Survival, and Swim. An ikahonu gains a +4 racial bonus to hide and swim checks.
• Racial Feats: An ikahonu’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat.
• Tauric Form: An ikahonu’s tauric body gives them some unique traits. Due to their proportionally smaller torso, an ikahonu uses weapons designed for a creature one size category smaller. An ikahuno has reach as a long creature of it's size. An ikahonu gains a +4 bonus to ability check to resist bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground (but not while climbing, flying, swimming, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground. An ikahonu counts as a quadruped for determining it's carrying capacity.
• Shell Protection: As a move action, an ikahonu can pull themselves back into their shell and close the bony plates to protect themselves almost completely. Doing so essentially grants the ikahonu total cover within themselves. An ikahuno cannot move, attack, or perform physical actions while inside his shell, but he may still perform purely mental actions and speak normally. An ikahonu’s shell has an AC identical to the ikahonu’s, but it gains no dodge, dexterity, or shield bonus to AC and the natural armor bonus is increased by +4. An ikahonu’s shell has hardness equal to 5+their con mod and HP equal to 10+¼ their Maximum HP. The shell's HP heals very slowly, at a rate equal to 1/4 your natural healing rate (minimum 1). If an ikahonu’s shell is broken, they loose cover immediately, they lose their fortified shell ability, their natural armor bonus decreases by 4, and they cannot pull back into their shell until the damage is repaired with a Heal or Regenerate spell. An ikahonu can still be targeted by spells while retracted into their shell, by targeting the ikahonu’s shell. An ikahonu wearing armor spikes that pulls back into his shell takes damage as though grappling himself each round.
• Fortified Shell: An ikahonu’s shell protects the majority of their organs. An ikahonu targeted by a critical hit or sneak attack has a 50% chance to negate the extra damage of the attack.
• Hold Breath: A ikahonu can hold it’s breath for a number of rounds equal to 4x it’s constitution score.
• +2 LA

Honukai


Personality: Honukai are a spiritual people who dwell in warm seas. They revere the ocean and believe that one can only truly grow through hardship and faith. They are cool-tempered and relaxed, swift to forgive and slow to anger.
Physical Description: Honukai are a tauric people. Their bodies resemble those of very large sea turtles, with shells perhaps five feet in length, with an upper body the size and proportion of a halfling’s emerging where the turtle’s head would be. All exposed skin is covered with thick scales. They have large eyes with armored eyelids and a beaklike mouth. The chest of the upper torso bears a number of hinged bony plates, and the back bears a much smaller shell. Males and females look virtually identical. Their scales and shell are usually green, black, brown or yellow. Honukai will sometimes decorate their shells with carvings. Originally this was a way of recording the honukai‘s history and accomplishments, but in recent times it has become more decorative than anything, though honukai still refer to great deeds as shell-worthy. Honukai are also known for their extremely long lives. They reach maturity at 100 years and age extremely slowly. Some elders are said to be thousands of years old. A honukai can, theoretically, live forever, unless slain by some accident. Honukai are born vulnerable and instinctively swim out into the sea for many years before their instincts lead the surviving younglings to their traditional lagoon.
Relations: Honukai get along well with most aquatic civilizations, though they cannot venture too deep due to their dependence on air. Some honukai trade with other air-breathing aquatic cultures, and may even share a lagoon with other sorts of communities. They are also known to trade at the shoreline with land-based settlements.
Alignment: Honukai are usually good, and are most often neutral, though there’s a fair number of lawful and chaotic honukai.
{table]|L|N|C
G |15|30|15
N |5|15|5
E |5|5|5[/table]
Honukai Lands: Honukai spend most of the year in warm, clear lagoons, farming sea grasses and some fruits upon the shore They spend their time not eating or farming paddling about on the surface, engaging in debate with other honukai. Every year, they swim many miles to a traditional nesting beach, where they hold a great festival to mate and lay eggs.
Religion: Honukai revere the ocean as a deity itself. It is a living thing, supporting and cradling life within it, hiding mysteries in it’s dark depths, and guiding beings through it’s depths with its currents. Some worship water spirits or the sun.
Language: Honukai always speak common, but some communities have taken to speaking aquan.
Names: Honukai do not get names until they return to the lagoon. A honukai is has a hatching name, which they share with all the honukai born after a single mating festival, and a personal name, given by the elder when they return to the lagoon.
Adventurers: Honukai rarely become adventurers, content to mill about in their lagoons enjoying their peaceful lives. Those that do most often become clerics of the sea, guided by great mother ocean to oppose those who would harm or poison her.

• +4 constitution, +4 wisdom, -4 dexterity
• Medium size: As Medium creatures, honukai have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Monstrous Humanoid
• Base land speed is 5 feet
• A honukai has a swim speed of 40 feet. A honukai has a +8 racial bonus to swim checks, and can always take 10 on swim checks, even if rushed or threatened.
• +8 natural armor bonus
• Racial Hit Die: A honukai begins with two levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit dice, a base attack bonus of +2, a base save bonus of +3 fort, +0 ref, and +3 will
• Racial Skills: A honukai’s monstrous humanoids give it skill points equal to 5x(2+int modifier). A honukai’s class skills are Hide, Listen, Spot, Survival, and Swim. A honukai gains a +4 racial bonus to hide and swim checks.
• Racial Feats: A honukai’s monstrous humanoid levels give it one feat.
• Tauric Form: A honukai’s tauric body gives them some unique traits. Due to their proportionally smaller torso, a honukai uses weapons designed for a creature one size category smaller. A honukai gains a +4 bonus to ability check to resist bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground (but not while climbing, flying, swimming, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground. A honukai counts as a quadruped for determining it's carrying capacity.
• Shell Protection: As a move action, a Honukai can pull themselves back into their shell and close the bony plates to protect themselves almost completely. Doing so essentially grants the honukai total cover within themselves. A hunokai cannot move, attack, or perform physical actions while inside his shell, but he may still perform purely mental actions and speak normally. A honukai’s shell has an AC identical to the honukai’s, but it gains no dodge, dexterity, or shield bonus to AC and the natural armor bonus is increased by +4. A honukai’s shell has hardness equal to 5+their con mod and HP equal to 10+¼ their Maximum HP. The shell's HP heals very slowly, at a rate equal to 1/4 your natural healing rate (minimum 1). If a honukai’s shell is broken, they loose cover immediately, they lose their fortified shell ability, their natural armor bonus decreases by 4, and they cannot pull back into their shell until the damage is repaired with a Heal or Regenerate spell. A honukai can still be targeted by spells while retracted into their shell, by targeting the honukai’s shell. A honukai wearing armor spikes that pulls back into his shell takes damage as though grappling himself each round.
• Fortified Shell: A honukai’s shell protects the majority of their organs. A honukai targeted by a critical hit or sneak attack has a 50% chance to negate the extra damage of the attack.
• Hold Breath: A honukai can hold it’s breath for a number of rounds equal to 8x it’s constitution score.
• +1 LA

Feats:

Tuck:
You can control your instinct to retreat into your shell, allowing you to gain a measure of protection while still being able to act.
Prerequisite: Wisdom 15, Shell Protection
Benefit: You can tuck yourself halfway into your shell, gaining cover against attacks as a move action. However, while tucked like this, you can't move freely, and all targets effectively have cover against you.

Crushing Jaws:
You have mastered the use of your bite to grip your prey.
Prerequisites: Ikahonu
Benefit: When grappling an opponent, you can sink your jaws into your opponent's flesh, automatically dealing bite damage every round you maintain the grapple.

Hard Shell:
You were born with a tougher shell than normal.
Prerequisites: Shell Protection, Con 17, Level 1
Benefit: Your shell's hardness increases by 1 point for ever 4 HD you possess and your shell gains extra HP equal to your HD.

Items:
Ironback Armor: A suit of ironback armor is much like any suit of armor designed for a honu, ikahonu, or honukai. However, these suits are usually split into two sections an upper section, which fits much like any other suit of armor on their torso. The lower section is designed to engulf their shell, anchored into the bone with rivets, spiked nails, or other such fasteners. As such, while the upper portion can be removed normally, the lower section cannot be removed without breaking the character's shell. A suit of ironback armor applies it's armor bonus to the shell's AC, adds one-half its hardness to the shell's hardness, and it's HP to the shell's maximum HP. A character wearing the full suit of ironback armor takes normal armor check and speed penalties. If they remove the upper portion, they only take half armor check penalties but the speed penalty remains in full. the armor can be enchanted as normal, but the character must be present during the entire process. Enhancement bonuses apply at all times, but all other magical effects are suppressed and cannot be activated if the character is not wearing both parts of their ironback armor.
Ironback armor costs additional gold based on the weight category of the armor. Ironback armor weighs the same as it's non-ironback counterpart, and weighs 1/2 as much while the upper portion is removed.
{table=head]Armor Type|Cost
Light|+1000
Medium|+3000
Heavy|+5000[/table]


Shell Spikes: A honu, ikahonu, or honukai can get special spikes made, which can anchor to a suit of armor or even the shell itself. When grappling an opponent, the character can attempt to impale his opponent on these spikes as a standard action, by making a successful grapple check. If the check is successful, the opponent takes 1d8+strength damage.

Runes of Garoome: This is a series of runes created by a honu druid to help protect his village. The runes are carved into a honu, ikahonu, or honukai’s shell, then sprinkled with gemstone dust and oils. These runes ring the lower edge of the carapace, then there is a key rune which determines the element the runes emit at the apex of the shell. When a creature attacks a shell inscribed with runes of garoome with a non-reach melee attack, the runes flare, dealing energy damage to the attacker equal to the honu, ikahonu, or honukai’s HD. Depending on the key rune, this can deal Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire damage. If the shell is broken, the runes are broken. If a shell is restored with a regenerate or heal spell, the runes are essentially healed over, and must be engraved again.
Faint Evocation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, Resist Energy; Price 3,000 gp

Things to Make:
Feats:
Tuck
(Grapple-Bite)
(Grapple-Rake)
Strong Shell

Items:
Ironback Armors

I should probably mention you can post now.

Anyways, not sure where these guys came from. They just arrived in my mind. I like turtles and it's one of those common animals that I'm vaguely surprised never got a race. Anyway, the TNMT body plan didn't really fit in my mind, I wanted them to be able to retract completely. So here we are.

Oh, Honu is the hawaiian word for turtle. Ikahonu means strong turtle, and honukai means turtle of the sea. Honu are based off box turtles, Ikahonu are going to be alligator snapping turtles, and Honukai are going to be sea turtles.

I like the honu! :smallsmile:

Now that official permission of thread-openness has been given I can officially say that I think every-thing about the honu race is neat! Thanks for making it available.

Also, I have general inquisitiveness about the physical...concerns regarding penetrating a honu's shell. Maybe I should say medical. Where are all of the essential organs? Can a honu survive without certain portions of itself, or its shell? I assume survival of limb amputation is possible, but what about missing pieces of primary shell or secondary shell?

I...don't mean to talk in a...messy way...I guess I'm just clinically and medically curious. :smallsmile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Story Time

I like the honu! :smallsmile:

Now that official permission of thread-openness has been given I can officially say that I think every-thing about the honu race is neat! Thanks for making it available.

Also, I have general inquisitiveness about the physical...concerns regarding penetrating a honu's shell. Maybe I should say medical. Where are all of the essential organs? Can a honu survive without certain portions of itself, or its shell? I assume survival of limb amputation is possible, but what about missing pieces of primary shell or secondary shell?

I...don't mean to talk in a...messy way...I guess I'm just clinically and medically curious. :smallsmile:

---

I'm really glad you like them!

Well, actually, this is one of those things I spend a lot of time thinking about and never actually manage to work into the racial info. My parents have a medical background, so I know a good deal about anatomy. I think the digestive tract and associated organs would be in the lower body portion. The upper body would have the respiratory system and a heart. There might be a second heart in the lower body too, to help disseminate the blood flow further. The spinal column is fused to the carapace, the upper portion of the shell, so if you broke it right, the back legs of the honu could be paralyzed. If there was a portion of the shell missing or cracked, it would bleed a lot, initially, but eventually it would seal up with scar tissue. The bony part wouldn't grow back, however.

I could explain the details about why they would probably be in those positions and what the advantage/disadvantages, but that would likely be boring. If you rally wanna hear it, though, I could get into it.

Hm.

Honestly, I don't want to hear it so much as I want to read it as part of the racial information. Some-thing official, in other words. :smallredface:

Maybe in a sub-section under the main one?

Truth-be-told, I learned so much about dinosaurs in my schooling. They...won't exactly work. Their small lung capacity wouldn't feed enough oxygen through their bodies to let them trounce down through, say, Houston, Texas.

About the honu, it's a fantasy species. It's not my decision. But my quiet recommendation is to put the lung organs and the heart in the central shell so that they can be large. Secondary organs in the forward torso would be fine. Some birds have two sets of lungs, I think...some-thing to do with breathing and singing...

Also, I would really like to see more fluffy-fluff text about a honu's daily life. One little example would be how the honu introduces their self. Would they use all of their names? If so, which order? If not, why?

All kinds of other questions brim to mind, but I'll be quiet about them for now. Mostly, I want my approval of the species to be of greater emphasis than my inquiry. :smallsmile:

The restoration of broken shells seems a bit harsh, honestly, as you can't fix it without a 6th or 7th level spell, leading me to suspect that, at least among them, they should have some method of returning integrity to their shells that doesn't require a midlevel caster, as I can't see every village of these having such a high level priest on hand, let alone the money to afford to have one cast.

I'd recommend a racial spell that only repairs shells (perhaps with a costly material component) that's low enough so you can find a caster capable of casting one without having to travel to a major tribal village to bug your high priest to fix you up. I'd aim it at 3rd level or so, I think.

I approve of the alignment TABLE rather than just using words. Nice touch.

EDIT: I will also point out that, mechanically at least, one of these guys with levels of commoner who ends up in a dangerous situation, pulls into his shell, gets his shell broken, but survives, can live out the rest of his live glad of the fact, and just pray that he is never in such a dangerous situation again. It isn't like it causes a penalty to movement rate, or physical ability scores. As such, the easier repairs are ONLY necessary from a perspective of playability, and NOT from a world-building perspective.

Alright, honukai are posted, I may do a few feats and spells or add more details to the fluff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Story Time

Hm.

Honestly, I don't want to hear it so much as I want to read it as part of the racial information. Some-thing official, in other words. :smallredface:

Maybe in a sub-section under the main one?

Truth-be-told, I learned so much about dinosaurs in my schooling. They...won't exactly work. Their small lung capacity wouldn't feed enough oxygen through their bodies to let them trounce down through, say, Houston, Texas.

About the honu, it's a fantasy species. It's not my decision. But my quiet recommendation is to put the lung organs and the heart in the central shell so that they can be large. Secondary organs in the forward torso would be fine. Some birds have two sets of lungs, I think...some-thing to do with breathing and singing...

Also, I would really like to see more fluffy-fluff text about a honu's daily life. One little example would be how the honu introduces their self. Would they use all of their names? If so, which order? If not, why?

All kinds of other questions brim to mind, but I'll be quiet about them for now. Mostly, I want my approval of the species to be of greater emphasis than my inquiry. :smallsmile:

---

I suppose I could put in some anatomy sorta thing in there. it'd likely be virtually identical in all three, but it would answer the questions.

In regards to dinosaurs, their lung capacity was smaller, but back then the atmosphere was significantly more oxygen-rich. So a breath of the same size would have provided more energy. But that's off-topic.

I was considering putting the lungs and heart in the main section, but I figured having it so the air could be more rapidly exchanged was a wiser decision. I guess I didn't really take lung volume into consideration. But then a creature with such a slow metabolism would likely not require as much oxygen for basic functions.

Double lungs with a single tract wouldn't make sense, since the oxygenation would either be half-finished by the time it reached the second lungs, or the first lungs would be redundant. Your points make sense, though, and it probably should be so. But the lungs and heart in the upper portion were both important for justifying why it's 50%, as well as justifying the existance of the upper shell/ribs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

The restoration of broken shells seems a bit harsh, honestly, as you can't fix it without a 6th or 7th level spell, leading me to suspect that, at least among them, they should have some method of returning integrity to their shells that doesn't require a midlevel caster, as I can't see every village of these having such a high level priest on hand, let alone the money to afford to have one cast.

I'd recommend a racial spell that only repairs shells (perhaps with a costly material component) that's low enough so you can find a caster capable of casting one without having to travel to a major tribal village to bug your high priest to fix you up. I'd aim it at 3rd level or so, I think.

---

It is a tad harsh, true, but in natural situations it likely wouldn't happen. The shell is very resilient, an average shell would have 7 hardness, just barely more yielding than stone, and 13 HP. It would require quite a bit of dedication to get through that. According to my math, an average human with an axe would have to spend ten minutes chopping away to get through. Most animals would know to look for easier meals.

Still, if worse comes to worse, the breaking of the shell would be akin to losing a limb for other creatures. I figured they shouldn't be able to grow that back any easier than a man losing a hand. But if the masses insist upon it, I can come up with a quick spell that restores a broken shell. Probably just to 1 HP and let it re-knit from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DracoDei

I approve of the alignment TABLE rather than just using words. Nice touch.

EDIT: I will also point out that, mechanically at least, one of these guys with levels of commoner who ends up in a dangerous situation, pulls into his shell, gets his shell broken, but survives, can live out the rest of his live glad of the fact, and just pray that he is never in such a dangerous situation again. It isn't like it causes a penalty to movement rate, or physical ability scores. As such, the easier repairs are ONLY necessary from a perspective of playability, and NOT from a world-building perspective.

---

Thanks, I was getting real tired of having to write out the whole 'usually neutral, with no real tendency toward good or evil, but more likely to be good, yadda yadda yadda' thing. I figured a little table thing makes it easier to illustrate.

That's more or less my logic there. A honu with a cracked shell is lucky to be alive, and would be viewed by other honu the same way we view people who are missing parts of their limbs.

I suppose a shell is pretty resilient, all things considered. I guess I can see equating it to a lost limb that way.

Another concern about broken shells, would one of these three races lose Fortified Shell if their shell was breached? Doesn't seem like it would be working that hot if there's this big hole in your back that people are gonna be exploiting, y'know?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cieyrin

I suppose a shell is pretty resilient, all things considered. I guess I can see equating it to a lost limb that way.

Another concern about broken shells, would one of these three races lose Fortified Shell if their shell was breached? Doesn't seem like it would be working that hot if there's this big hole in your back that people are gonna be exploiting, y'know?

---

That makes sense. I was thinking about that, but I guess I forgot to include it in the text.

Anyways, anyone got ideas for feats or items for these guys? I'm still working on the 'day in the life' entries.

Well, I am currantly careing for a widdle snapper right now, so I suppose I could give a few suggestions for the Ikahonu feats, ehh?



First off, they tend to look fat. Heck, they give a sorta Jabba vibe if you feed them to much (like any animal), but its realy noticable if you have seen other species of turtles and then you see a typicaly bloated one. Hence, some sort of thing that alows them to go on "reserves" of food might be pratical for a average speciman. They have the ability to withstand cold, to the point of being able to swim under ice, so the ability to ignore such cold temptures and keep going would be natural. (Oh course, something like thats probably in Frostburn, so...) There rather flexable necks (in this case, the torso?) would make there bite attack more viable, and there claws are realy for holding things while they nom them but I would not know how to translate that into a few viable feats.

But I have seen your other stuff, so I have no doubt you can pull them off.:smallbiggrin:

I like the honukai! Peaceful; serene. I want to visit them now!

I also like their common belief system. The text there is good stimulation for role-play. :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

Double lungs with a single tract wouldn't make sense, since the oxygenation would either be half-finished by the time it reached the second lungs, or the first lungs would be redundant. Your points make sense, though, and it probably should be so. But the lungs and heart in the upper portion were both important for justifying why it's 50%, as well as justifying the existance of the upper shell/ribs.

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...if birds can make it work honu can also. However, I really, really, don't want to spur conflict. What I want is to be encouraging and so I'll quietly suggest a second nose near, or just inside, the shell opening where the forward torso protrudes. This secondary ( it'd actually be primary, because they're bigger ) set of nostrils could easily fill a large set of lungs.

Gills...would not make sense, though I did think of them for a moment.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

But the lungs and heart in the upper portion were both important for justifying why it's 50%, as well as justifying the existance of the upper shell/ribs.

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This part right here confused me. ???:smallconfused:??? I'm sorry, but can you explain?

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

The shell is very resilient, an average shell would have 7 hardness, just barely more yielding than stone, and 13 HP.

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...that's just flat-out cool. :smallbiggrin:

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

But if the masses insist upon it, I can come up with a quick spell that restores a broken shell. Probably just to 1 HP and let it re-knit from there.

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...my mass would like it to stay the way that it is. Auto-regeneration of flesh is a theme in fantasy, but should require some fantastic circumstances to do so. It shouldn't be trivial, mundane, common, or prosaic.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

Anyways, anyone got ideas for feats or items for these guys? I'm still working on the 'day in the life' entries.

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Yay for Day-In-The-Life entries! :smallbiggrin:

...just to encourage Squish's original point, it shouldn't be easy to repair a shell. Temporary protection or aid could theoretically be applied in a metal plate on the shell and possibly some application of [(nails?)(glue?)]. Herbal poultices and other remedies might be interesting if deemed applicable. I am very interested in medicinal practices that these species use.


And...if I start to be a bother or distraction from Squish's intentional plans about this home-brew, please say so.

Very interesting concept. I'd be curious to see what they look like. (I'm almost surprised you didn't do a larger subrace that is large with a medium tauric body, I half expected it with the Ikahonu back before you filled in their stats.)

I 'm gonna throw my weight behind the single set of lungs and heart in the upper ribcage, leaving the lower ribcage to just the stomach and intestines. (also considering they have the into-the-shell retreat mechanism, they'll need a little room.) A secondary heart for bloodflow in the lower torso wouldn't hurt, though.

(And I just checked, according to a quick google search, birds don't have multiple sets of lungs, they have additional airsacs that keep air flowing in a single direction through the lungs by re-direction, so the lungs themselves don't expand and contract like ours, but act as passive filters more like internal gills. See this image, found here.)

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Well, I am currantly careing for a widdle snapper right now, so I suppose I could give a few suggestions for the Ikahonu feats, ehh?



First off, they tend to look fat. Heck, they give a sorta Jabba vibe if you feed them to much (like any animal), but its realy noticable if you have seen other species of turtles and then you see a typicaly bloated one. Hence, some sort of thing that alows them to go on "reserves" of food might be pratical for a average speciman. They have the ability to withstand cold, to the point of being able to swim under ice, so the ability to ignore such cold temptures and keep going would be natural. (Oh course, something like thats probably in Frostburn, so...) There rather flexable necks (in this case, the torso?) would make there bite attack more viable, and there claws are realy for holding things while they nom them but I would not know how to translate that into a few viable feats.

But I have seen your other stuff, so I have no doubt you can pull them off.:smallbiggrin:

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Is it a common snapper or an alligator snapper? The Ikahonu are supposed to be alligator snappers.

Good to see some advice from someone with experience. Cold resistance... maybe. It's unusual for a reptile, but in PC terms it'd be average. On the flexible neck, I took a look at dire tortoise from sandstorm, maybe I could give them a feat that allows them to treat the target of their bite attack as flat-footed?

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Originally Posted by Story Time

I like the honukai! Peaceful; serene. I want to visit them now!

I also like their common belief system. The text there is good stimulation for role-play. :smallsmile:

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Thanks! I'm not honestly sure where the idea for the highly spiritual culture came from. It just occurred to me when I was starting the personality section. Then the idea of interpreting instinct as divine insight hit and it all flowed together wonderfully. I really wanted to give the three significantly different cultures and I hopefully accomplished that.

My turn for a long spoilered reply.

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Originally Posted by Story Time

...if birds can make it work honu can also. However, I really, really, don't want to spur conflict. What I want is to be encouraging and so I'll quietly suggest a second nose near, or just inside, the shell opening where the forward torso protrudes. This secondary ( it'd actually be primary, because they're bigger ) set of nostrils could easily fill a large set of lungs.

Gills...would not make sense, though I did think of them for a moment.

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There's no need to get stressed out about conflict. We all just want to put in our own two cents.

Hmm... Completely different idea. How about they DO have two sets of lungs, but they use them differently? The larger, deeper set are used most of the time, and are good for the usual slow pace they work at. (My research shows big turtles breathe ~4 times a minute, compared to an adult human's ~15 and a halfling-sized child's ~25) But then when adrenaline kicks in, they switch over to the upper set of lungs. They've got a smaller capacity, but they have a much faster rate of exchange. And since the upper body is usually the part that's doing most of the hard work, that's the part with the most immediate access to the extra-oxygenated blood.

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Originally Posted by Story Time

This part right here confused me. ???:smallconfused:??? I'm sorry, but can you explain?

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I mean, the fortified shell ability blocks 50% of crits, not 100%, and if all the important organs are in the shell, there's very little chance of them being struck in combat. And if there's no organs in the upper portion, why would it develop a ribcage/shell? Which would in turn mean I'd have to reimagine the design of the upper body (kinda more like hips, maybe? It'd be really weird and hard to describe).

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Originally Posted by Story Time

...that's just flat-out cool. :smallbiggrin:

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It certainly is, isn't it? And then you count in PC ability scores. An 18 base in con would end up with a shell hardness of 11, harder than steel, and 15 HP.

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Originally Posted by Story Time

...my mass would like it to stay the way that it is. Auto-regeneration of flesh is a theme in fantasy, but should require some fantastic circumstances to do so. It shouldn't be trivial, mundane, common, or prosaic.

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This is a surprisingly thorny issue. I shall have to think on it.

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Originally Posted by Story Time

Yay for Day-In-The-Life entries! :smallbiggrin:

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They're taking longer than expected, but they shall be done!

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Originally Posted by Story Time

...just to encourage Squish's original point, it shouldn't be easy to repair a shell. Temporary protection or aid could theoretically be applied in a metal plate on the shell and possibly some application of [(nails?)(glue?)]. Herbal poultices and other remedies might be interesting if deemed applicable. I am very interested in medicinal practices that these species use.


And...if I start to be a bother or distraction from Squish's intentional plans about this home-brew, please say so.

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Metal plates... idea for item. Steel, or even adamantine shell fortifications. a thin, custom-forged shell cover anchored into the shell with nails or screws. Increase the hardness and HP of your shell. Maybe they can even be enchanted to deal damage to anything attacking your shell?

Medical practices could certainly be a fun topic, too. I'll see if I can address them in the 'day in the life' bits.

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Originally Posted by RedWarlock

Very interesting concept. I'd be curious to see what they look like. (I'm almost surprised you didn't do a larger subrace that is large with a medium tauric body, I half expected it with the Ikahonu back before you filled in their stats.)

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I was considering making ikahonu large, actually, , especially since I one saw an alligator snapper that had lived during the civil war and was the size of of a spare tire. But, I decided against it because that'd be just too much LA/RHD for any PC to take. Maybe a cool monster, but not a player race.

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Originally Posted by RedWarlock

I 'm gonna throw my weight behind the single set of lungs and heart in the upper ribcage, leaving the lower ribcage to just the stomach and intestines. (also considering they have the into-the-shell retreat mechanism, they'll need a little room.) A secondary heart for bloodflow in the lower torso wouldn't hurt, though.

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My current plan is doubled heart and lungs. The upper set only really kick in during flight-or-flight.

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Originally Posted by RedWarlock

(And I just checked, according to a quick google search, birds don't have multiple sets of lungs, they have additional airsacs that keep air flowing in a single direction through the lungs by re-direction, so the lungs themselves don't expand and contract like ours, but act as passive filters more like internal gills. See this image, found here.)

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I was kinda aware of the airsack thing, but I'd never seen that... slightly mind-blowing illustration. Still trying to figure out how it works in my head...

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

Is it a common snapper or an alligator snapper? The Ikahonu are supposed to be alligator snappers.

Good to see some advice from someone with experience. Cold resistance... maybe. It's unusual for a reptile, but in PC terms it'd be average. On the flexible neck, I took a look at dire tortoise from sandstorm, maybe I could give them a feat that allows them to treat the target of their bite attack as flat-footed?

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Common, actualy, but most of the same principles apply. A interesting thing to note is that while Aligators are far more horrible to look at, the Common ones are actualy more like the man-biting terrors of lore you seem to be emphasising.

Here is some (rather crappy vid, but it works) of one chilling around in the middle of winter. A note about there claws: they basicly use them to rip at something thats already in there mouth, often getting little chunks of meat stuck in them. Perhapes they could get a feat that gives them a bonus to hit if there already grappled? (Another vid: notice how it is basicly slicing at the tail while keeping it's mouth firmly in place) Heck, they could feasbly get one that makes it harder for a grappled creature to flee: after all, snapping turtles are creatures made of bone, scales, and a hatred of life.

Hey just some quick, pseudo-logical, comments at the anatomy issue.

First things first, proportionality, the shell is about 5ft [OP] and the torso is about Halfling sized [OP]. A Halfling is about 3ft tall [SRD], just assuming about half of the Halfling is torso, that makes the torso 1.5-2ft tall, long, what ever. These proportions aren't really that different from what some species of turtle have for head/neck to body proportions.

Just for a point of reference a snapping turtle can reach almost half way up its shell to bite you, that is the extreme example I suppose.

So depending on the bulk implied these guys could really be just turtles (more or less) with a few logical evolutions.

-"periscope style head/neck" if the hang around shallow water, this would have developed to allow them to only peek their heads out of the water, like a painter turtle does. (This brings the interesting question of how they look when they swim fully under water.)
-"forward facing eyes" binocular vision, a fairly useful bit I suppose, the shrinking of the eyes would make them less vulnerable too I suppose and allow more of the two images to overlap.
-"secondary arms" their forward arms are rather small and probably inferior to the forward legs (I suppose we would call them that) however with the head generally sitting up and away from the forward legs something like mandibles might develop and eventually turn to "arms" and "hands"

Those are really the only differences between a turtle-taur and a giant turtle. The brain would also need to be larger and the closing up method might require some evolutionary alterations, probably fairly minor one comparatively.

The end result of this is that all of the major organs would still be housed in the larger shelled portion. The brain and perhaps something like a crop would be in the "torso".

The crit vulnerability is still fine due to the "neck" being rather large and exposed, and the brain still hanging out there.

The oxygenated blood requirement going to the "arms" would be much less than would be required by the four much larger "legs" and a lot of blood is being pumped brain ward any way.

An interesting addition from me, why not let the primary breathing orifice be a set of "nostrils" near the base of the "torso"? The smaller mouth and head would be less of an issue that way and it would free up room to put a set of specialized sacs in the torso attached to the mouth/nose that are used only for speaking. This would allow for speech without compromising how long they could hold their breath and without the risk of drowning by inhaling water. IDK how under water speech actually works but I'm guessing one could breathe water with these sacs and speak with water the same as one could speak with air.

Edit: damn i forgot wouldn't the front legs have more deadly claws than any thing the arms could support? might consider swaping the claw attack down to those.

Just a note, Ikahonu's Tauric Form abruptly ends.

Also, I was wondering how or even if they bother with armor, considering the difficulties of getting around anything fitted on their upper torso and then the difficulty of withdrawing into the shell if they have armor on. Reinforcing the shell seems likely but I'm trying to think where they would put harnesses and such for tools and weapons.

As for the Ikahonu being potentially large, consider Goliaths and Feral Garguns for how that can work, as they have the makings already there and I think they're kinda on the weak side for RHD 2/LA +2 at the moment that sliding in Powerful Build wouldn't hurt them, methinks.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

Metal plates... idea for item. Steel, or even adamantine shell fortifications. a thin, custom-forged shell cover anchored into the shell with nails or screws. Increase the hardness and HP of your shell. Maybe they can even be enchanted to deal damage to anything attacking your shell?

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This is a very good idea. :smallsmile: Honestly, all that I wanted to suggest was some kind of band-aid or aid system for shell damage. But I like this item idea. :smallbiggrin:

Took me a while to respond, but I do come bearing good news! I've managed to convince my brother to draw up some lineart of the turtle-taurs for me, since the internet is leaving me out to dry in terms of art.

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Common, actualy, but most of the same principles apply. A interesting thing to note is that while Aligators are far more horrible to look at, the Common ones are actualy more like the man-biting terrors of lore you seem to be emphasising.

Here is some (rather crappy vid, but it works) of one chilling around in the middle of winter. A note about there claws: they basicly use them to rip at something thats already in there mouth, often getting little chunks of meat stuck in them. Perhapes they could get a feat that gives them a bonus to hit if there already grappled? (Another vid: notice how it is basicly slicing at the tail while keeping it's mouth firmly in place) Heck, they could feasbly get one that makes it harder for a grappled creature to flee: after all, snapping turtles are creatures made of bone, scales, and a hatred of life.

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My research wandered back and forth quite a bit, so we get the best of both worlds. The epic, saurian, antediluvian death machine look of the alligator snapper and the hateariffic outlook of the common snapper.

Hmm... I see two possible feats. One relating to the bite. Possibly allowing you to automatically bite damage to grappled targets each round. The other would be in regards to the claws. Maybe allowing you to rake grappled opponents.

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

*snip*

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Interesting take on the evolutionary process. Few things, however. If they were to have developed mandibles which would eventually become arms, the limbs would still be attached to the skull, why would they develop a new mounting structure and migrate down?

-Wait a sec. What if they didn't detach, but the skull separated? The primary brain case separates from the rest of the head as the brain develops. It migrates, along with the manipulator/mandibles, down the neck. The skull takes on traits like the main shell. The end result is that what would be a human ribcage is actually a 'second skull', containing the enlarged brain! ...Well, it'd be cool, if extremely unlikely, and I feel really nerdy for feeling proud of that idea. Still, I suppose it has to stand up to peer review first.

Back on topic. Your proposed version would eliminate the upper shell and ribcage. I'm thinking it would require a hip-like structure in it's place to support the arms and have them work in roughly the same way as a humanoid's.

As for the idea of claws, I was considering making that a feat. The upper claws are the only ones that would really be usable in combat, but the foreleg claws could certainly devastate a grappled opponent.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Just a note, Ikahonu's Tauric Form abruptly ends.

Also, I was wondering how or even if they bother with armor, considering the difficulties of getting around anything fitted on their upper torso and then the difficulty of withdrawing into the shell if they have armor on. Reinforcing the shell seems likely but I'm trying to think where they would put harnesses and such for tools and weapons.

As for the Ikahonu being potentially large, consider Goliaths and Feral Garguns for how that can work, as they have the makings already there and I think they're kinda on the weak side for RHD 2/LA +2 at the moment that sliding in Powerful Build wouldn't hurt them, methinks.

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So did the honukai's, actually. thanks for catching it!

It would likely be uncomfortable to retract an armored body, and it would definitely hurt if you were using armor spikes, but I think you'd still be able to do it. Of course, any armor they wear would have to be custom-made for a honu, which would likely take such things into account.

As for powerful build. I think that would be REALLY WEIRD to stack with tauric body. They would interact in strange ways. It would be a lot easier to just make them large, I suppose. They wouldn't get reach, so it wouldn't be too bad... I'l rejigger them a bit to fit.

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Originally Posted by Story Time

This is a very good idea. :smallsmile: Honestly, all that I wanted to suggest was some kind of band-aid or aid system for shell damage. But I like this item idea. :smallbiggrin:

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It probably would have evolved out of medical practices, honestly. Perhaps it can be used to temporarily 'replace' a broken shell.

Maybe separate the shell-armor and the damaging people who damage the shell thing? Maybe arcane runes carved into the shell do the damage thing, rather than the armor? Ideas, ideas...

Initial drafts of the Ironshell and the Runes of Garoome. I have NO idea how to price them, however.

Ironback: This custom molded set of plates is built for a specific individual’s shell and nailed into it. The exact appearance ranges from a simple steel coat to elaborately detailed and sculpted decorations. A shell with an ironback attached gains +5 hardness and +10 HP. An ironback costs ??? GP and requires one hour with a blacksmith to attach or remove it. An ironback weighs 50 lbs. An ironback can be used to effectively replace a broken shell, creating a temporary shell with 10 hardness and 10 HP. There are versions of this item crafted of adamantine, which increase the shell’s hardness by +10, and it’s HP by +40, costs ??? GP, and weighs 100 lbs. The adamantine version of a replacement shell had 20 hardness and 40 HP.

Runes of Garoome: This is a series of runes created by a honu druid to help protect his village. The runes are carved into a honu, ikahonu, or honukai’s shell, then sprinkled with gemstone dust and oils. These runes ring the lower edge of the carapace, then there is a key rune which determines the element the runes emit at the apex of the shell. When a creature attacks a shell inscribed with runes of garoome with a non-reach melee attack, the runes flare, dealing energy damage to the attacker equal to the honu, ikahonu, or honukai’s HD. Depending on the key rune, this can deal Acid, Cold, Electricity, or Fire damage. The rune-scribing process must be performed by a druid of at least 5th level, and requires one hour and materials costing ??? GP. If the shell is broken, the runes are broken. If a shell is restored with a regenerate or heal spell, the runes are essentially healed over, and must be engraved again.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

Interesting take on the evolutionary process. Few things, however. If they were to have developed mandibles which would eventually become arms, the limbs would still be attached to the skull, why would they develop a new mounting structure and migrate down?

-Wait a sec. What if they didn't detach, but the skull separated? The primary brain case separates from the rest of the head as the brain develops. It migrates, along with the manipulator/mandibles, down the neck. The skull takes on traits like the main shell. The end result is that what would be a human ribcage is actually a 'second skull', containing the enlarged brain! ...Well, it'd be cool, if extremely unlikely, and I feel really nerdy for feeling proud of that idea. Still, I suppose it has to stand up to peer review first.

Back on topic. Your proposed version would eliminate the upper shell and ribcage. I'm thinking it would require a hip-like structure in it's place to support the arms and have them work in roughly the same way as a humanoid's.

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I'd like you for a moment to consider how close your shoulders are to your mouth. Now i'll agree that some supporting structures might need to be developed, but most of that could just be secondary joints that the bones shrunk down until they were internal.

Aso for the ribcage, screw it. you're a half turtle any way just have bony torso plates that protect the upper body be a for of exo-skeleton (kinda sorta how the shell is, kindo of a streach i know but it's fantasy so wth)

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

As for the idea of claws, I was considering making that a feat. The upper claws are the only ones that would really be usable in combat, but the foreleg claws could certainly devastate a grappled opponent.

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The fore claws shouldn't be any further back than your run of the mill giant turtle's, granted none of them actually have claw attacks, but look at the size of the mitts on a dragon turtle I'd hate to get smacked by one of those.

Although considering no other turtle monster has a claw attack, why do these bros?

Speaking of bros. these guys should favor throwing hammers.

I'd suggest Ironbacks be screwed on rather than nailed, as screws tend to better reinforce materials without damaging them like nails are prone to doing. It also allows a honu or one of the others the ability to trade up and can generate a market for used Ironbacks for retired warriors to new recruits or pass down a family Ironback through the generations, which seems like it could be important to a Honu family as a historical record. Just think of a chief from a long line of Honu chiefs carrying the Ironback used by the founder of their tribe, the history that chief would be carrying with him in both battle and parley.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

I'd suggest Ironbacks be screwed on rather than nailed, as screws tend to better reinforce materials without damaging them like nails are prone to doing. It also allows a honu or one of the others the ability to trade up and can generate a market for used Ironbacks for retired warriors to new recruits or pass down a family Ironback through the generations, which seems like it could be important to a Honu family as a historical record. Just think of a chief from a long line of Honu chiefs carrying the Ironback used by the founder of their tribe, the history that chief would be carrying with him in both battle and parley.

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Screws weren't mass produced until the 1770's, not that the real world time line matters. But a full-fledged screw is probably outside of the capabilities of your run of the mill reptilian blacksmith.

A rivet or maybe a set of leather straps pierced through the outside rim of the shell might be better for those too squeamish for nails.

My first thoughts are that the shell is a needlessly complicated ability for a PC race. I've done Koopas for a Mario D20 system, and I'll give you some feedback based on what didn't work very well for me. I would recommend you do an ability like this:

Tuck (Ex): As an immediate action a turtle may gain a +2 cover bonus to Reflex saves and AC against ranged attacks until the end of his next turn.

It's a lot more simple, it still fits the flavor of "turtle", and it requires a little bit of active action on the part of the player. It also doesn't make them nearly useless when they use it.

You could also write some simple feats to improve it (improve to a +4 AC bonus, +4 Reflex bonus, evasion, % chance to block line of effect, etc etc). It might also be nice to have such feats for the active ability versus ranged attacks grant passive bonuses which can help in melee, like improved natural armor or fortification (for example, +25% critical hit resistance per racial feat taken).

The second thing I would like to note is that they all have a very high natural armor bonus. You seem to be ignoring the normal rules for barding armor. Their AC isn't overly high (it's comparable to Troglodytes), I just think that making "shell plates" a special item is needlessly complicated. They're nonhumanoid so armor costs twice as much, why make things more complicated? Only a LA +0 race needs to have natural armor be nerfed (warforged, for example).

Other than that, these look like a pretty solid race. It's apparent you've put a lot of thought into balance.

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

Screws weren't mass produced until the 1770's, not that the real world time line matters. But a full-fledged screw is probably outside of the capabilities of your run of the mill reptilian blacksmith.

A rivet or maybe a set of leather straps pierced through the outside rim of the shell might be better for those too squeamish for nails.

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Who says a fantasy race couldn't have mastered that specific art in their pursuit of shell reinforcement? Looking at history, historians, archaeologists and anthropologists discover sudden advancements in technology that didn't catch on in ancient societies, so perhaps our turtle people invented a method of making their "shell attachers" to deal with the problem of cracking and keeping them firmly attached.

And no one said anything about mass-production, so I don't see why that should stop them from making them on the basis of orders, as opposed to having a supply on hand.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

Initial drafts of the Ironshell and the Runes of Garoome. I have NO idea how to price them, however.

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I don't know how to price them either.

I like them. They're not what I expected, but their neat in their own way. :smallsmile:

I'd like to see a note that adds any Dr they gain to their shells hardness, and maybe also a line that let's them gain Dr boosting feats, because it seems appropriate.

Also, I have the wonderful mental image of a psion honu that never leaves his shell.

As for items, the rune is basically a continuous 1st level spell, so I'd say 2000, maybe 3000 to factor for high HD.

the iron back, I'd probably say iron is 500 gp, (1/5 value per pound of gold for worked iron), adamantine for 10000 (cost of heavy adamantine armour.)
The other option is to combine it with their armour, and say the shell gains half the hardness and all the hp of the armour. (would cost as much as normal set of armour for a medium quadruped)

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

I'd like you for a moment to consider how close your shoulders are to your mouth. Now i'll agree that some supporting structures might need to be developed, but most of that could just be secondary joints that the bones shrunk down until they were internal.

Aso for the ribcage, screw it. you're a half turtle any way just have bony torso plates that protect the upper body be a for of exo-skeleton (kinda sorta how the shell is, kindo of a streach i know but it's fantasy so wth)

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It's not an issue of distance, it's an issue of connections. If the limbs sprouted from the head, to migrate down, the skull would have to first develop a unique structure to support them, then have said structure separate from the skull and move down.

You know what, Magic. A wizard did it. I declare they have a humanoid torso with a smaller turtle shell for a ribcage, including a secondary set of lungs and a secondary heart.

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

The fore claws shouldn't be any further back than your run of the mill giant turtle's, granted none of them actually have claw attacks, but look at the size of the mitts on a dragon turtle I'd hate to get smacked by one of those.

Although considering no other turtle monster has a claw attack, why do these bros?

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The claws aren't any further back, but a snapper never leads with the claws. They only engage with them once they have a creature in their jaws already. Take a look at an alligator snapper's claws if you want justification for claws. It would only be for the Ikahonu, specifically.

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

Speaking of bros. these guys should favor throwing hammers.

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...You are a silly person.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

I'd suggest Ironbacks be screwed on rather than nailed, as screws tend to better reinforce materials without damaging them like nails are prone to doing. It also allows a honu or one of the others the ability to trade up and can generate a market for used Ironbacks for retired warriors to new recruits or pass down a family Ironback through the generations, which seems like it could be important to a Honu family as a historical record. Just think of a chief from a long line of Honu chiefs carrying the Ironback used by the founder of their tribe, the history that chief would be carrying with him in both battle and parley.

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The problem with that is that in my original idea, each ironback has to be custom-fitted to the honu. It has to be nearly perfect shell-to-metal contact so that force transfers between them. I like your idea for it, though. I may rejigger it.

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

Screws weren't mass produced until the 1770's, not that the real world time line matters. But a full-fledged screw is probably outside of the capabilities of your run of the mill reptilian blacksmith.

A rivet or maybe a set of leather straps pierced through the outside rim of the shell might be better for those too squeamish for nails.

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Perhaps a clawed nail instead of a screw? The smith bores a hole, hammers in the spiked nail. Of course, that'd make the procedure mostly permanent. Perhaps removing it breaks the shell?

Leather straps? I dunno. I want something that can't be removed without some serious effort. If you're hiding in your shell, then you can't present the guy outside it any easy way to peel your armor off. Rivets might work, but a similar problem to the spiked nails.

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Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer

My first thoughts are that the shell is a needlessly complicated ability for a PC race. I've done Koopas for a Mario D20 system, and I'll give you some feedback based on what didn't work very well for me. I would recommend you do an ability like this:

Tuck (Ex): As an immediate action a turtle may gain a +2 cover bonus to Reflex saves and AC against ranged attacks until the end of his next turn.

It's a lot more simple, it still fits the flavor of "turtle", and it requires a little bit of active action on the part of the player. It also doesn't make them nearly useless when they use it.

You could also write some simple feats to improve it (improve to a +4 AC bonus, +4 Reflex bonus, evasion, % chance to block line of effect, etc etc). It might also be nice to have such feats for the active ability versus ranged attacks grant passive bonuses which can help in melee, like improved natural armor or fortification (for example, +25% critical hit resistance per racial feat taken).

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Hmm... Well, I'm not gonna change the whole thing around now, but that does give me an idea for a feat... Tuck. Use your shell to gain cover.

I think your take on it is significantly more abstract, simply based on the idea of what a turtle does then watered down to LA 0. Mine's supposed to be a more literal interpretation of what the actual mechanical effects of going into your shell like a turtle would be.

If I were to make a LA 0 turtle race, though, I'd probably make it very much like that.

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Originally Posted by Thomar_of_Uointer

The second thing I would like to note is that they all have a very high natural armor bonus. You seem to be ignoring the normal rules for barding armor. Their AC isn't overly high (it's comparable to Troglodytes), I just think that making "shell plates" a special item is needlessly complicated. They're nonhumanoid so armor costs twice as much, why make things more complicated? Only a LA +0 race needs to have natural armor be nerfed (warforged, for example).

Other than that, these look like a pretty solid race. It's apparent you've put a lot of thought into balance.

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They do have high natural armor due to the parts not being covered by the shell being pretty heavily scaled and the shells providing pretty impressive protection.

What do you mean by ignoring the standard rules for barding? The idea is that ironbacks are not actually armor. A honu's shell gains an armor bonus to AC from armor, same as the rest of the honu, but an ironshell doesn't add an armor bonus, it is actually more designed as a layer of reinforcement for the shell, or a temporary replacement for a shell.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Who says a fantasy race couldn't have mastered that specific art in their pursuit of shell reinforcement? Looking at history, historians, archaeologists and anthropologists discover sudden advancements in technology that didn't catch on in ancient societies, so perhaps our turtle people invented a method of making their "shell attachers" to deal with the problem of cracking and keeping them firmly attached.

And no one said anything about mass-production, so I don't see why that should stop them from making them on the basis of orders, as opposed to having a supply on hand.

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Ehh, I'd have to side with the rest of them. There probably wouldn't be screws. They're just really complicated and nearly impossible to make by hand, especially for ones with such clumsy hands.

quick note you likely missed my post/edit. ninja'd you

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

Speaking of bros. these guys should favor throwing hammers.

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Oh gosh, a Troopa PrC? Fund it, I say!

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You know what, Magic. A wizard did it. I declare they have a humanoid torso with a smaller turtle shell for a ribcage, including a secondary set of lungs and a secondary heart.

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Yeah, at this rate we will be talking about the divergance of Owlbears from Griffons evolution-wise, or something.:smallbiggrin:

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Also, I have the wonderful mental image of a psion honu that never leaves his shell.

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Just hovering on a floating platform, with stuff decortating the shell on the outside for magical means? Heh, now I do too!

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

I'd like to see a note that adds any Dr they gain to their shells hardness, and maybe also a line that let's them gain Dr boosting feats, because it seems appropriate.

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Good idea! I should do that.

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

Also, I have the wonderful mental image of a psion honu that never leaves his shell.

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That... is a pretty awesome mental image. I really wanna play that now.

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

As for items, the rune is basically a continuous 1st level spell, so I'd say 2000, maybe 3000 to factor for high HD.

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Whoo! Awesome pricing is awesome!

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

the iron back, I'd probably say iron is 500 gp, (1/5 value per pound of gold for worked iron), adamantine for 10000 (cost of heavy adamantine armour.)
The other option is to combine it with their armour, and say the shell gains half the hardness and all the hp of the armour. (would cost as much as normal set of armour for a medium quadruped)

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More pricing! This is AWESOME!

I like the combine with armor option, but it'd take some jiggering to do it right.

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Originally Posted by Story Time

I don't know how to price them either.

I like them. They're not what I expected, but their neat in their own way. :smallsmile:

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Well, thankfully, our friend Jojo stepped up with cost estimates. We'll see how it works.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Oh gosh, a Troopa PrC? Fund it, I say!

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...I am vaguely tempted to make koopas now, but I have bigger projects to work on.

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Yeah, at this rate we will be talking about the divergance of Owlbears from Griffons evolution-wise, or something.:smallbiggrin:

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Yeaaaaaah.

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Just hovering on a floating platform, with stuff decortating the shell on the outside for magical means? Heh, now I do too!

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Exactly! Just a floating shell blasting away with energy. I wanna do this a LOT.

Alright, here's a few drafts of feats and a revised take on ironback armor.

Ironback Armor: A suit of ironback armor is much like any suit of armor designed for a honu, ikahonu, or honukai. However, these suits are usually split into two sections an upper section, which fits much like any other suit of armor on their torso. The lower section is designed to engulf their shell, anchored into the bone with rivets, spiked nails, or other such fasteners. As such, while the upper portion can be removed normally, the lower section cannot be removed without breaking the character's shell. A suit of ironback armor applies it's armor bonus to the shell's AC, adds one-half its hardness to the shell's hardness, and it's HP to the shell's maximum HP. A character wearing the full suit of ironback armor takes normal armor check and speed penalties. If they remove the upper portion, they only take half armor check penalties but the speed penalty remains in full. the armor can be enchanted as normal, but the character must be present during the entire process. Enhancement bonuses apply at all times, but all other magical effects are suppressed and cannot be activated if the character is not wearing both parts of their ironback armor.
Ironback armor costs additional gold based on the weight category of the armor. Ironback armor weighs the same as it's non-ironback counterpart, and weighs 1/2 as much while the upper portion is removed.
{table=head]Armor Type|Cost
Light|+1000
Medium|+3000
Heavy|+5000[/table]


Tuck:
You can control your instinct to retreat into your shell, allowing you to gain a measure of protection while still being able to act.
Prerequisite: Wisdom 15, Shell Protection
Benefit: You can tuck yourself halfway into your shell, gaining cover against attacks as a move action. However, while tucked like this, you can't move freely, and all targets effectively have cover against you.

Crushing Jaws:
You have mastered the use of your bite to grip your prey.
Prerequisites: Ikahonu
Benefit: When grappling an opponent, you can sink your jaws into your opponent's flesh, automatically dealing bite damage every round you maintain the grapple.

Hard Shell:
You were born with a tougher shell than normal.
Prerequisites: Shell Protection, Con 17, Level 1
Benefit: Your shell's hardness increases by 1 point for ever 4 HD you possess and your shell gains extra HP equal to your HD.

I'd suggest also noting an increase in price for the Ironback Armour when made from a special material. something like 50% more cost from special materials.

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

I'd suggest also noting an increase in price for the Ironback Armour when made from a special material. something like 50% more cost from special materials.

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I don't know why they would increase in cost for special materials, as they don't vary by size or shape of creature normally, so I don't know why it would for this.

Also, I'm guessing spiked Ironback armor is probably only spiked on the shell part, I'm guessing, so some attention to that could be warranted.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

I don't know why they would increase in cost for special materials, as they don't vary by size or shape of creature normally, so I don't know why it would for this.

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Players handbook page 123. Armor for unusual creatures. non-humaniod has a price increase, and either the honu are treated an non-humanoid and have to pay double for the non-magic costs of armor, or the ironback armour covers the cost from weird shape, in which case increasing the cost of special materials helps balance special high hardness materials, and makes the cost more similar to barding.

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

I'd suggest also noting an increase in price for the Ironback Armour when made from a special material. something like 50% more cost from special materials.

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The honu's already paying double price due to a nonhumanoid body plan. Why would special materials cost extra-extra? He wouldn't need any more of the stuff than normal armor, the extra price is just the custom-fitting and redesign.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Also, I'm guessing spiked Ironback armor is probably only spiked on the shell part, I'm guessing, so some attention to that could be warranted.

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This is true. Think I should address armor spikes in the shell protection description?

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Originally Posted by jojolagger

Players handbook page 123. Armor for unusual creatures. non-humaniod has a price increase, and either the honu are treated an non-humanoid and have to pay double for the non-magic costs of armor, or the ironback armour covers the cost from weird shape, in which case increasing the cost of special materials helps balance special high hardness materials, and makes the cost more similar to barding.

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It's supposed to be double base +the extra ironback cost.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

It's supposed to be double base +the extra ironback cost.

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I think every one's question is "Why the extra cost?"

The rules for barding are supposed to cover this kind of thing.

I geuss there is an argument for the permanent attach ment process. But it's prolly only a couple copper (about the same cost as getting a horse shoed) to have a blacksmith to hammer a few spikes into your back.

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Originally Posted by Sir Swindle89

I think every one's question is "Why the extra cost?"

The rules for barding are supposed to cover this kind of thing.

I geuss there is an argument for the permanent attach ment process. But it's prolly only a couple copper (about the same cost as getting a horse shoed) to have a blacksmith to hammer a few spikes into your back.

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The extra cost is supposed to represent the price of custom-fitting the shell and reworking the design to anchor to the shell directly as opposed to being fastened together with leather straps over layers of chain and padding.

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Originally Posted by Admiral Squish

This is true. Think I should address armor spikes in the shell protection description?

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Wherever you think it would fit in best, just that it should be included somewhere.

Okay, armor spikes have been adressed and here's a version of armor spikes for them that doesn't mess with their ability to pull into the shell.

Shell Spikes: A honu, ikahonu, or honukai can get special spikes made, which can anchor to a suit of armor or even the shell itself. When grappling an opponent, the character can attempt to impale his opponent on these spikes as a standard action, by making a successful grapple check. If the check is successful, the opponent takes 1d8+strength damage.

Great, why can I see a Honu dashing up to a foe, preforming a graceful backflip, and retreating into it's shell just before it crushes the poor twit under a spiked shell?

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Great, why can I see a Honu dashing up to a foe, preforming a graceful backflip, and retreating into it's shell just before it crushes the poor twit under a spiked shell?

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Because you forgot they had a -4 Dex and 'graceful' and 'honu' don't belong in the same sentence? :smalltongue:

Bah, this is DnD! They could be a monk and use that ability that lets them leap realy, realy far!:smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Bah, this is DnD! They could be a monk and use that ability that lets them leap realy, realy far!:smalltongue:

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...Man, a honu monk running around at 80 ft/r would be more than a lil' ridiculous.

Are you kidding? What about a Ikahonu basicly flinging party members left and right all while in knee-deep water?

Quest giver: "Well, guys, in order to get the magical mcguffen, your going to have to defeat the kung-fu master who lives in the swamp."

PCs: "Oh, that can't be that bad. Probably a giant or something with class levels."

DM: "Hehehehehehe....."

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Originally Posted by Pokonic

Are you kidding? What about a Ikahonu basicly flinging party members left and right all while in knee-deep water?

Quest giver: "Well, guys, in order to get the magical mcguffen, your going to have to defeat the kung-fu master who lives in the swamp."

PCs: "Oh, that can't be that bad. Probably a giant or something with class levels."

DM: "Hehehehehehe....."

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Speaking of ikahonu, they have been mechanically upgraded to large and had their stats tweaked. I just need to go tweak the physical description too.

Ikahonu look pretty good, other that the natural weapons look like they didn't get increased in size to match.

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Originally Posted by Cieyrin

Ikahonu look pretty good, other that the natural weapons look like they didn't get increased in size to match.

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Oh yeah, that part... *goes and fixes*