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Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Last week my hard drive exploded, making me lose all my data since the last time I bothered backing it up (which was three months ago). As a direct result I've been forced to restart the 3.5 campaign I'd been running, since all my data was on the computer. Just as well, since I was considering killing the party off anyway and making them roll more motivated characters.
So by popular vote the campaign is being moved from the frozen ****hole of Isande Helvete to the desert ****hole of Ordo Equitum Solis. In preparation for this, I had each of them answer a 51 question survey about their characters (normally 53 questions, but two of them didn't make any sense in context). And before you start complaining about how time consuming this must be, we managed to get six people to answer every question AND roll an entire character sheet (minus the equipment of two players) during a single session.
The problem comes in from the fact that depite answering 51 questions about their characters, somehow they still manage to come out flat. Or at least, I think so. Here's what I've got:
The Nomads:
Darius Vajheer- Hunter (TWF Warrior 3 [See sig.]). Sickly as a child, as he got older he became much stronger and is now probably the largest man in the tribe, standing at 6' 5". Accidentally caused the deaths of his party on his first hunt ever when he unintentionally released a spirit creature of some sort. Has no real long-term goals.
(My problem here is not his depth so much as his utter lack of initiative.)
Al-Ed Lladnar- Hunter (Rogue 3 (Didn't pick combat style yet.) [See sig.]). Sadistic bully and thief. Obsessed (as in stalker-ish) with Darius's sister Neela. Murdered his little brother Anep because he wasn't being given enough attention. Twin brother of Atem. Apart from wanting to win Neela's heart (she's married) and move out of the desert, has no real goals to speak of.
(Bored of sociopaths, as I told the party when we started this. And apart from his Stalker With A Crush thing, has no real goals.)
Atem Lladnar- Hunter (TWF Rogue 3 [See sig.]). Twin brother of Al-Ed. Only real backstory that isn't "followed his twin around" is his completely unexplained romance with some girl named Akasha. Wants to be leader of the tribe, apparently just 'cause.
(Probably the worst of the nomads despite having an actual goal. Just completely flat.)
The Others:
Osama Jamal- Soldier (Archer Rogue 3 [See sig.]). Sniper and siege engineer for the Imperial Legions, began Walking The Earth after he came home from his first tour of duty to find his entire hometown burned to the ground. Apart from seeking revenge on the people who did this, has no real direction in life. Is gay, in case that is relevent beyond giving the appearance of depth.
(While he has plenty of potential plot hooks simply by being military, apart from enjoying his job he doesn't have much about him.)
Aranesp Peste- Criminal (Archer Rogue 3 [See sig.]). Spoiled brat, kicked out of his home to make a life for himself. After piddling around as a petty thief for a few years, decided he wanted to be emperor. Without anything remotely resembling success, he's since been trying to build up an organization to overthrow the government. Has a massive ego combined with severe issues with authority.
(Probably my favorite of the lot, I see him becoming the party's face. Suprising, considering the shiftless idiot he played in the last campaign. Has motivation and character depth, something that every other member of the party either has very little or none of at least one category.)
Xumi Sanddancer- Hunter (Archer Rogue 3 [See sig.]). A wallflower. Seriously. Has been raised by a pleasant family, has had nothing exiting happen in her life, and has no goals beyond raising a family of her own.
(Worst in the party. No goals, no plot hooks in her backstory, and not even any real explaination of how she managed to gain military-level skills despite doing nothing but shoot deer.)
So there's what I have to work with. While I can probably work most of these into a plot, my issue is that most of them almost seem to be actively avoiding having any sort of catalysts toward an interesting campaign. How do I get them to write characters that actually have some reason to go out and do something?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Sorry if it comes off the wrong way, but if I had to answer 51 questions before playing a character I'd make a pretty flat one too. It seems like tedium may have hit your players :(
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Whenever I Start a new campaign I usually start with a straight forward scenario that puts the party together. If people have an elaborate back story and would like to share we go around and explain everything. However more often then not, picking a complete and interesting history out of the blue is difficult. For me backstory takes a massive amount of time and as players have mutual respect for each other, they shape there character and conveniently retcon a few things so each one has there nich (respect is a big thing so we don't have competing histories).
Starting a new campaign I have two things I want to know about a character (aside from stats). What is your motivation(s)? What is your personality like? These can be as long or short as the player wants and can be flexible (lets face it, television and media constantly change back story to fit it's needs). But at least it gets you to a place you can start crafting a campaign and guesstimating party dynamics.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Animefunkmaster
Whenever I Start a new campaign I usually start with a straight forward scenario that puts the party together. If people have an elaborate back story and would like to share we go around and explain everything. However more often then not, picking a complete and interesting history out of the blue is difficult. For me backstory takes a massive amount of time and as players have mutual respect for each other, they shape there character and conveniently retcon a few things so each one has there nich (respect is a big thing so we don't have competing histories).
Starting a new campaign I have two things I want to know about a character (aside from stats). What is your motivation(s)? What is your personality like? These can be as long or short as the player wants and can be flexible (lets face it, television and media constantly change back story to fit it's needs). But at least it gets you to a place you can start crafting a campaign and guesstimating party dynamics.
If I was running a casual campaign I might consider doing this, since really the characters just exist as an excuse for Adventure!(TM). However, my campaigns are always extremely story-based; indeed this is probably the only reason I'm allowed to DM, considering my player-killing habits. So when my players fail to supply me with characters that have an actual motivation to go out and participate in the story, I'm left with nothing for them to do except maybe slaughtering all their loved ones and hope they vow revenge.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
It sounds like there might be a disconnect between the kind of campaign you want to run and the kind your players want to play in.
It seems like (and you confirmed) you want to run a sandbox-style campaign where most things are driven by the characters' motivations. Maybe your players don't really want to do that. Maybe they just want a more casual campaign where they don't feel like they have to be the catalyst for any adventures that happen.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
You could build a rather generic story to start with then sink the hooks into your characters as they progress and fall into their characters lives a bit more.
Most of the time when I make a character he is just sort of there until I play him for a few sessions then his motivations and ideas fall into line for me. Characters are a LOT more fun and organic if they flow instead of being set up on the spot because of a series of questions.
If that doesnt appeal to you why dont you find a life path generator (Traveller and Mech Warrior and Mekton Zeta RPGs come to mind) and have them roll up a random life, normally that yields exciting interesting lives for the characters before they started to adventure while leaving the character personalities up to your players.
It is likely a lot faster than 50 different questions as well :smallwink:
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
51-53 questions is a LOT. Are these yes/no questions? I don't think I've ever even taken a 51-question exam for a real-life qualification, and I don't think I could answer 51 questions about people I've met in real life!
Do you think the player might be happier with, say, 5-10? Such as:
1) Does your PC have any family?
2) What does the PC do in their spare time?
3) What do they want most?
4) What would they do with it if they got it?
5) Name one favourite thing they have (e.g. favourite food, colour etc.)
6) Who do they consider friends?
7) Who is their best friend?
8) Have they ever been in love?
9) Is there anyone they dislike?
10) Are they afraid of anything in particular?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
I doubt you could get much more out of them before you're started to play; as far as I've seen, motivations tend to pop up during the first few sessions. Motivations cannot exist in a vacuum; there must be a catalyst. Lacking a catalyst, there's only so much people are going to be willing to offer.
I would advise starting play, and seeing if any motivations develop. If they don't, murder a few NPCs they've gotten to like or burn a village or something; that might get them going. If all else fails, enslave them; they'll almost definitely try to escape. If they don't, there's no more that can be done. If you don't have motivations, you don't have a game.
On a related note, I'm in the process of trying to draw a game I'm running to a close, mostly because what motivations exist for the players' characters have absolutely nothing to do with each other and almost nothing to do with what's actually going on in the world around them. Ah well.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Psycho
Last week my hard drive exploded, making me lose all my data since the last time I bothered backing it up (which was three months ago). As a direct result I've been forced to restart the 3.5 campaign I'd been running, since all my data was on the computer. Just as well, since I was considering killing the party off anyway and making them roll more motivated characters.
Players tend to grow attached to their characters over time. Try to force killing them off if it can be avoided. For instance, if characters need motivation, you can add motivations to existing characters. Ask players what things interest them, and work them into the plot.
Sure, it sucks that you lost campaign notes, but you can always take a different direction from where you are now.
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So by popular vote the campaign is being moved from the frozen ****hole of Isande Helvete to the desert ****hole of Ordo Equitum Solis.
Sounds like it's time for Sandstorm.
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In preparation for this, I had each of them answer a 51 question survey about their characters (normally 53 questions, but two of them didn't make any sense in context). And before you start complaining about how time consuming this must be, we managed to get six people to answer every question AND roll an entire character sheet (minus the equipment of two players) during a single session.
>an entire session on character creation? Brutal. We generally have new people get a character built in the first half hour of the session. They're playing in the first hour...and we spend a *lot* of time messing around.
With >50 questions, people are gonna get bored, and just start trying to get through the questions. Personally, I would answer them as briefly and hilariously as possible. It'd probably not be helpful.
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The problem comes in from the fact that depite answering 51 questions about their characters, somehow they still manage to come out flat. Or at least, I think so. Here's what I've got:
Well, yeah. It's 51 questions. You're not gonna get an essay.
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The Nomads:
Darius Vajheer- Hunter (TWF Warrior 3 [See sig.]). Sickly as a child, as he got older he became much stronger and is now probably the largest man in the tribe, standing at 6' 5". Accidentally caused the deaths of his party on his first hunt ever when he unintentionally released a spirit creature of some sort. Has no real long-term goals.
(My problem here is not his depth so much as his utter lack of initiative.)
Feh. Easy enough to throw plot hooks for. Accidentally caused deaths in his tribe? Yeah, if that doesn't justify them wanting to send him off adventuring, I dunno what would.
And once he gets started, he really has nowhere else to go to.
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Al-Ed Lladnar- Hunter (Rogue 3 (Didn't pick combat style yet.) [See sig.]). Sadistic bully and thief. Obsessed (as in stalker-ish) with Darius's sister Neela. Murdered his little brother Anep because he wasn't being given enough attention. Twin brother of Atem. Apart from wanting to win Neela's heart (she's married) and move out of the desert, has no real goals to speak of.
(Bored of sociopaths, as I told the party when we started this. And apart from his Stalker With A Crush thing, has no real goals.)
Easy. Go, adventure, acheive fame. Surely she'll want you when you have fame. A slightly dysfunctional motivation? Sure. But it fits the character.
And yeah, move out of the desert? Bam. Another perfect motivation to go adventuring.
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Atem Lladnar- Hunter (TWF Rogue 3 [See sig.]). Twin brother of Al-Ed. Only real backstory that isn't "followed his twin around" is his completely unexplained romance with some girl named Akasha. Wants to be leader of the tribe, apparently just 'cause.
(Probably the worst of the nomads despite having an actual goal. Just completely flat.)
Aright. First off, followed twin around is sufficient, if you have motivated his twin. Secondly, he has ambitions. Leadership doesn't just happen. This guy seems terribly easy to get adventurin'.
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The Others:
Osama Jamal- Soldier (Archer Rogue 3 [See sig.]). Sniper and siege engineer for the Imperial Legions, began Walking The Earth after he came home from his first tour of duty to find his entire hometown burned to the ground. Apart from seeking revenge on the people who did this, has no real direction in life. Is gay, in case that is relevent beyond giving the appearance of depth.
(While he has plenty of potential plot hooks simply by being military, apart from enjoying his job he doesn't have much about him.)
I've seen this character a lot. Really, really easy to motivate so long as you have the revenge character to dangle. Once that's achieved, the player needs to come up with new goals. It's a turning point for the character.
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Aranesp Peste- Criminal (Archer Rogue 3 [See sig.]). Spoiled brat, kicked out of his home to make a life for himself. After piddling around as a petty thief for a few years, decided he wanted to be emperor. Without anything remotely resembling success, he's since been trying to build up an organization to overthrow the government. Has a massive ego combined with severe issues with authority.
(Probably my favorite of the lot, I see him becoming the party's face. Suprising, considering the shiftless idiot he played in the last campaign. Has motivation and character depth, something that every other member of the party either has very little or none of at least one category.)
If any character will cause trouble, it will be this one. Sure, he's got plenty of angles to hook him on, but unless he happens to be party leader, playing his character results in party conflict.
[quote]Xumi Sanddancer- Hunter (Archer Rogue 3 [See sig.]). A wallflower. Seriously. Has been raised by a pleasant family, has had nothing exiting happen in her life, and has no goals beyond raising a family of her own.
(Worst in the party. No goals, no plot hooks in her backstory, and not even any real explaination of how she managed to gain military-level skills despite doing nothing but shoot deer.)
So have something happen. Some odd event that would result in her being tossed in with the rest of the misfits. Have her get blamed for (random bad thing) that happened to her tribe. Whatever.
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So there's what I have to work with. While I can probably work most of these into a plot, my issue is that most of them almost seem to be actively avoiding having any sort of catalysts toward an interesting campaign. How do I get them to write characters that actually have some reason to go out and do something?
Well, so far, you've been all "horror, horror", right? Your players have learned an important lesson. Backstories are weapons to be used against you. Therefore, writing backstories is bad. It's a common theme in RPGing, and while it doesn't HAVE to be that way, lots of players have seen this enough to play it cautious.
Not to mention, some people just don't find enjoyment in filling out fifty question tests and writing backstories.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Can you post this 51-question list?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Psycho
If I was running a casual campaign I might consider doing this, since really the characters just exist as an excuse for Adventure!(TM). However, my campaigns are always extremely story-based; indeed this is probably the only reason I'm allowed to DM, considering my player-killing habits. So when my players fail to supply me with characters that have an actual motivation to go out and participate in the story, I'm left with nothing for them to do except maybe slaughtering all their loved ones and hope they vow revenge.
Er, if the story is the only reason they still let you DM, then don't work on the story more. It's probably good enough.
Work on the reasons you suspect they would like to make you stop DMing because of.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Another thought occurs....
in your game I wouldn't try to come up with a remotely original in depth character either! You yourself admit you have a tendency to kill off your PCs. Why should I work on it when I am sure he is going to die off right away?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
I'm sorry, but as one of the biggest advocates of RP-heavy games and RP-heavy characters, there is no way I'd want to answer 51 questions about a character.
Characters should have a bit of backstory, yeah. But it could be a 15-page epic, or a few ideas scribbled on a greasy napkin. That's all it should take. As long as the player has a good idea of the character's story and personality, that should be enough. If I want to use backgrounds as plot hooks, I'll ask the player casually (wouldn't do to give away the plot, after all), and not during a session, to expand on his/her character's background a little.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
You could have them roll on a random chart for this, and give them 2-3 sets of data. AEG mercenaries had a great system for that, and it was always fun to roll up an NPC that way. Appearance, demeanor, and flaws/traits. Have them build around that.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Matamane
You could have them roll on a random chart for this, and give them 2-3 sets of data. AEG mercenaries had a great system for that, and it was always fun to roll up an NPC that way. Appearance, demeanor, and flaws/traits. Have them build around that.
To counter that:
Things like that should be the player's choice, not a set of random rolls. The player may not want to play a character with those traits. The game isn't only about what the DM wants, it's a cooperative storytelling wargame (yes, I put "cooperative storytelling" and "wargame" together).
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
dsmiles
To counter that:
Things like that should be the player's choice, not a set of random rolls. The player may not want to play a character with those traits. The game isn't only about what the DM wants, it's a cooperative storytelling wargame (yes, I put "cooperative storytelling" and "wargame" together).
Thats is true, but if the Players dont want to bother coming up with all that on their own or a character thats going to get murdered by the GM a table to roll on for random traits would be nice.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsmiles
To counter that:
Things like that should be the player's choice, not a set of random rolls. The player may not want to play a character with those traits. The game isn't only about what the DM wants, it's a cooperative storytelling wargame (yes, I put "cooperative storytelling" and "wargame" together).
You could take the Deathwatch (and, I presume, Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader) approach to that - charts of random quirks/backgrounds/histories that you can either choose from or roll randomly.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
FelixG
Thats is true, but if the Players dont want to bother coming up with all that on their own or a character thats going to get murdered by the GM a table to roll on for random traits would be nice.
Hell, If my character was going to get murdered every other session, I wouldn't even go that far. :smalltongue:
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
dsmiles
Hell, If my character was going to get murdered every other session, I wouldn't even go that far. :smalltongue:
I wouldnt even play in the game but,hey, to each their own :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Psycho
If I was running a casual campaign I might consider doing this, since really the characters just exist as an excuse for Adventure!(TM). However, my campaigns are always extremely story-based; indeed this is probably the only reason I'm allowed to DM, considering my player-killing habits. So when my players fail to supply me with characters that have an actual motivation to go out and participate in the story, I'm left with nothing for them to do except maybe slaughtering all their loved ones and hope they vow revenge.
Have you tried just doing "Adventure!" ? Your players have failed to supply you with good characters for two reasons:
1) They aren't experienced in making complex characters
2) You kill them a lot.
Seriously, you kept killing their characters and they are probably tired of making complex characters whose motivations get subverted and an excuse to kill them. They make their characters as bland as possible as a defense mechanism, or they make bastards they don't care about.
Give them the benefit of the doubt. Tell them to make heroes, forget the 51 question test (Though I would like to read it.), forget the complex motivations and just have fun. Give them an overblown villain who is very evil and needs to be put down. Give them a world they can care about, not just "horrid place you wouldn't want to live in". Give them some hope.
Once you have your party of adventurers, they meet in a tavern, the old robed man in the corner gives them a quest, and they go and do it. Give them NPCs they can interact with, monsters that have a personality (but are still evil), and a simple, black and white morality that they can get behind. Those monsters are evil, go kill them. No, they aren't templated monstrosities. No, I won't kill you, the survival rate is very high today. No, I'm not sending monsters after you that you can't deal with. Yes, I'm doing XP by the book, so you can advance.
Don't worry about their huge backstories and weaving it into the "plot". Just let them explore and have fun. Then, when they've got a real connection with the world, then you lay the smackdown on what they know and love. Don't make it hopeless, just dramatic. Evil guy doin evil stuff? Well, we gotta save the village! We have a chance! Running is not an option this time! We can do it! We can save the people!
You bet your life they'll get a lot more engaged if they have a few victories under their belt. Their characters will be defined by their in game actions, not their backstories. So long as they have actions in game, they can develop their characters.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
dsmiles
Hell, If my character was going to get murdered every other session, I wouldn't even go that far. :smalltongue:
When I play games like that, you're lucky if I give my character a name.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Tyndmyr
When I play games like that, you're lucky if I give my character a name.
Melf proves you can actually get surprisingly far that way.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Siosilvar
Melf proves you can actually get surprisingly far that way.
So does Xagyg.
But seriously, nameless characters tend to die quickly (as proven over and over by my recent Gamma World 4e group, where the only character to survive the entire first session was the only one who had a name).
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
dsmiles
But seriously, nameless characters tend to die quickly (as proven over and over by my recent Gamma World 4e group, where the only character to survive the entire first session was the only one who had a name).
To be fair, everything we've seen of Psycho's games means that even characters with backgrounds long enough to serve as plate mail if printed out on A4 die with remarkable rapidity.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Jarian
To be fair, everything we've seen of Psycho's games means that even characters with backgrounds long enough to serve as plate mail if printed out on A4 die with remarkable rapidity.
Entirely different. It was pure chance that killed the Gamma World group, not an intent to murder characters. :smalltongue:
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Psycho
And before you start complaining about how time consuming this must be, we managed to get six people to answer every question AND roll an entire character sheet (minus the equipment of two players) during a single session.
Interesting. When we started a new campaign, in the first session we managed to get everyone roll up an entire character sheet, with equipment and background, and get two hours of actual play in.
If you pride yourself at having almost but not quite finished making characters during the first session, methinks you're setting the bar too low.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Or they just have shorter sessions. I've played in 4-hour sessions, and all-day sessions, in different groups.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
My own recommendation for making more rounded characters is to encourage it with the setting or a theme to the game. Since I started doing this, I've had a surplus of quality and interesting PCs.
For example, compare the following:
- Ok guys, we're going to be doing a dungeon crawl in the Tomb of Amotep. You'll start in a tavern in the City of Aos, so be sure to include details in your character background about how you arrived at Aos.
- Our campaign is taking place in Ramira. The King is dead, and there is no clear heir. You guys, the players, are members of the cutthroat noble class, a group of friends, cousins and allies conspiring to take the throne.
A player who knows it won't be a typical game isn't going to make as typical a character. I've run an orc-only game, a thieves guild game, a political game, etc, and I've had some outstanding characters throughout. I think (I hope) they feel that because the game premise has promise and involves their characters, they're more involved as a consequence.
But yeah, a dungeon crawl where my character is level 1 and is liable to die in the first session? As much as I love writing characters, you're not going to get more than a pretty perfunctory background from me.
I'm interested to see that questionnaire, though.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Possible. That said, I think half an hour is a reasonable amount of time for third level characters. Especially given they are all straight classed mundane chars.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Psycho
However, my campaigns are always extremely story-based; indeed this is probably the only reason I'm allowed to DM, considering my player-killing habits.
This is pretty much all there is to know about this situation.
Trying to run a "story based" campaign in which characters are constantly killed off is not going to work; particularly if you want the "story" to be connected to the characters' personal motivations some how. It's like trying to write a novel and killing off the protagonist at the end of every chapter - plot lines have no time to be resolved and the character never gets a chance to develop. Nobody is going to put the effort into creating a well-rounded character when they expect to have him shredded within a week; the "kill their backstory" approach doesn't help matters either.
At this point you're never going to get a "good" backstory out of these Players - they're trained to your DMing style. If you want to try and fix this you're going to have to try a radically different approach.
Here's what I recommend:
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(1) Start over from scratch.
Yeah, it hurts but you need to cleanse the taste of the aborted campaign from the minds of your Players. You can shelve this story for another time.
(2) Introduce the idea of the "Wheel of Legends"
The "Wheel of Legends" is something I just made up - you can adapt it to your taste. The core concept is that each PC is a new incarnation of a Legendary Hero with a Destiny.
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During creation each Player needs to write up a description of the Legendary Hero which includes the following:
- The Legendary Name (what the Legendary Hero was named)
- 3 Legendary Signs (three things associated with the Legendary Hero)
- The Legendary Destiny (one particular task that the Legendary Hero is associated with)
As an example, let's take Robin Hood
Legendary Name: Robin Hood
Legendary Signs: (1) Peerless Archer, (2) Defender of the Downtrodden, (3) Bold Banditry
Legendary Destiny: To topple an unjust ruler who is oppressing his own people.
The PC, being a new incarnation of the Legendary Hero, should aspire to display the three Legendary Signs either in creation or through play. Note that they are not already Legendary Heroes, but their Hero's Destiny is also going to be their destiny.
Next, tell the Players that the "Wheel of Legends" spins out many potential Legends each cycles and when one potential version of a Legend dies without fulfilling his Destiny, the Wheel empowers another potential with Destiny. So if their current PC is killed (and does not get rezzed) their next character will also fit the archetype of their original Legend even if his backstory is different.
The point of the "Wheel of Legends" is to give the Players a guarantee of stability in their motivations without reducing the risk of death & failure. No matter how many times they lose a PC they can be assured that they can continue fighting for the ultimate Destiny that
they themselves have chosen. This incentivizes them to think about the Destiny they want to be moving towards rather than waiting for the DM to tell them what to do.
(3) Look at the Destinies your Players provide, and construct a world/campaign where each of them can be fulfilled over the course of play.
The Destinies give you, as the DM, a handy hook to use to pull characters into the story. Note that no one Destiny need (or should) be the ultimate goal of a campaign - but they should all build towards whatever ultimate goal you have in mind. If you want the Players to stop a Mad God from destroying the world, make sure that along the way Robin Hood has to topple a tyrant (a servant of the God, perhaps), Perseus gets to slay a fearsome monster, and Miyamoto Musashi is able to prove that he is the world's ultimate swordsman.
(4) Before the game (and after character creation) ask each Player to answer a short questionnaire (no more than 10 questions) about their PC.
The point of this questionnaire needs to be establishing the PCs as living beings within the world - not to give you something to yank the PCs around with. You're unlikely to get better responses than you've received so far, but don't worry about it.
A sample questionnaire:
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(1) What is your character's name?
(2) Where were you born? How do you feel about being born there?
(3) Are your parents alive? What about brothers and sisters? How are your relations with them?
(4) Why are you adventuring? What are you trying to find?
(5) Is there anything you should be doing, or duties you've abandoned, in order to adventure? What would convince you to stop adventuring?
(6) Name three people your character could ask for favors or advice, and why they'd help you.
(7) Name two enemies you've made, and why they dislike you.
(8) Name two things your character would like to accomplish, in the short-to-medium term.
(9) Name two things you, as a player, would like for your character, in the short-to-medium term.
(5) During play take note of people/places that the Players show interest in. Spend time developing those people/places and allow the PCs as much time as they want to interact with them.
This step is how you get well-rounded characters. People respond more authentically to situations they have experienced rather than ones they claim to have experienced. Through interaction with their environment, Players get a better sense of their characters and their characters' character.
I'd like to hear what the OP thinks of this advice. I know it's dramatic, but you can't just force people to play a certain way - particularly when you've taught them (accidentally or not) to play a different way.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Siosilvar
Melf proves you can actually get surprisingly far that way.
Rary was originally called Medium Rary.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Geez... never post a topic right before bed... I'll edit this post and answer everyone I can...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
molten_dragon
It sounds like there might be a disconnect between the kind of campaign you want to run and the kind your players want to play in.
It seems like (and you confirmed) you want to run a sandbox-style campaign where most things are driven by the characters' motivations. Maybe your players don't really want to do that. Maybe they just want a more casual campaign where they don't feel like they have to be the catalyst for any adventures that happen.
Well perhaps they should've picked up on my play style sometime during the last three campaigns I've run for them. :smallannoyed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tyndmyr
Players tend to grow attached to their characters over time. Try to force killing them off if it can be avoided. For instance, if characters need motivation, you can add motivations to existing characters. Ask players what things interest them, and work them into the plot.
Sure, it sucks that you lost campaign notes, but you can always take a different direction from where you are now.
I'm talking about EVERYTHING regarding the campaign. Character sheets included.
Quote:
Sounds like it's time for Sandstorm.
I wish I owned it.
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>an entire session on character creation? Brutal. We generally have new people get a character built in the first half hour of the session. They're playing in the first hour...and we spend a *lot* of time messing around.
It usually takes us 2-3 sessions to finish CharGen. Don't ask me why, though; this is our first time using the 51-question thing.
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Feh. Easy enough to throw plot hooks for. Accidentally caused deaths in his tribe? Yeah, if that doesn't justify them wanting to send him off adventuring, I dunno what would.
And once he gets started, he really has nowhere else to go to.
Problem being that this happened nearly a decade ago and he's the only one who knows about it.
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Easy. Go, adventure, acheive fame. Surely she'll want you when you have fame. A slightly dysfunctional motivation? Sure. But it fits the character.
And yeah, move out of the desert? Bam. Another perfect motivation to go adventuring.
He's got more of a 'slink about in the shadows and bully the little people' type of personality, so I don't really see him seeking fame. And he isn't likely to want to move out of the desert unless he's got the girl with him.
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Aright. First off, followed twin around is sufficient, if you have motivated his twin. Secondly, he has ambitions. Leadership doesn't just happen. This guy seems terribly easy to get adventurin'.
Unless he was just following his twin, I don't see how wanting to be boss of his 50-strong tribe would in any way motivate him to travel elsewhere.
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I've seen this character a lot. Really, really easy to motivate so long as you have the revenge character to dangle. Once that's achieved, the player needs to come up with new goals. It's a turning point for the character.
I've got less of a problem with him than some of the others, since simply being in the military means I can pretty easily give him things to do.
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If any character will cause trouble, it will be this one. Sure, he's got plenty of angles to hook him on, but unless he happens to be party leader, playing his character results in party conflict.
Considering he's got the biggest ego present, I doubt the character would settle for a side role. But apart from the probably-patriotic soldier, I don't think most of the party cares one way or the other towards the emperor.
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So have something happen. Some odd event that would result in her being tossed in with the rest of the misfits. Have her get blamed for (random bad thing) that happened to her tribe. Whatever.
So in other words, you want me to completely generate her entire reason for playing the game myself, thus rendering all my efforts to get them to have a goal in life completely pointless?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hyudra
I'm interested to see that questionnaire, though.
Spoiler
Show
1. What is your name?
2. Any nicknames?
3. Preferred name?
4. What is your race?
5. Boy or girl?
6. Hair color and style?
7. What is your build?
8. Your weight?
9. When is your birthday?
10. How old are you?
11. What time period are you from?
12. Where is your home?
13. Is that where you were born? If not, where were you born?
14. What is your alignment?
15. Weapon of choice?
16. Element of choice?
17. Any family?
18. What is your family like?
19. What is your deepest darkest secret?
20. What is a well known "secret" about you?
21. What has your past been like?
22. Any romantic interests?
23. Anyone interested in you that you know of?
24. What is your favorite color?
25. What is your favorite food?
26. What is your favorite movie/play?
27. What is/was your favorite subject in school?
28. What is your favorite sport to watch/play?
29. What do you do for a living?
30. What languages do you speak?
31. Who are your friends?
32. And your foes?
33. How tall are you?
34. Are you a virgin?
35. Anything unusual about you?
36. Have you ever killed or seriously hurt anyone?
37. How do you relax after a long day?
38. What do you tend to do on a normal day?
39. Any irrational fears?
40. Regular fears or weaknesses?
41. Any bad habits?
42. If you could go back into your past and correct one mistake, would you? If so, what mistake? If not, why?
43. Are you ticklish?
44. How do you keep in contact with people?
45. What is your diet?
46. Have you ever broken the law?
47. What plans do you have for the future?
48. Any skills that can be put to good use?
49. What is your temperment like?
50. What is the happiest moment of your life?
51. Turn that around, what is your worst moment?
52. Any other habits?
53. What is your quote or catch phrase?
I didn't come up with this myself, mind. A friend of mine from school gave it to me.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Well perhaps they should've picked up on my play style sometime during the last three campaigns I've run for them. :smallannoyed:
The game's not just about you. Your players may have something different in mind, maybe you should talk to them in a less directive manner. It's their fun, too, after all.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsmiles
The game's not just about you. Your players may have something different in mind, maybe you should talk to them in a less directive manner. It's their fun, too, after all.
They're welcome to find another DM.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
They're welcome to find another DM.
Your way or the highway, eh? Careful with that, you may find yourself without a group.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsmiles
Your way or the highway, eh? Careful with that, you may find yourself without a group.
Oddly enough, I seem to gain players more often than I lose them.
And besides, if I didn't have to run sessions every weekend maybe I'd get some writing done...
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Oddly enough, I seem to gain players more often than I lose them.
And besides, if I didn't have to run sessions every weekend maybe I'd get some writing done...
Then why do you? :smallconfused:
No, seriously, why do you DM? You do not seem to be enjoying it, and I've yet to see any of your posts that involve "man, my players were awesome last session, it was a blast, we all had a great time!" Every time you make a thread, it's... well, it's depressing. Lots of negative adjectives thrown at the PCs (and players), nothing positive going on. It doesn't give the impression that you *want* to be DMing, and your statement of "if I didn't have to run sessions" (emphasis mine) implies you'd rather be doing something else.
So, I ask you, why not go do something else? Just say "eh, screw it" and nick off to go write. They're probably adults or close enough, they can figure it out.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
I'm being a bit unhelpful, but how often does the question number 34 actually come up in play? "Are you a virgin?"
All in all, the questionnaire is not bad but the questions themselves are rather generic and by the numbers that it's entirely possible to answer them and still end up with a stale, stiff husk of a character.
Try to vary the questions based on the actual story you are going for. Decide on some central themes and then ask the players how their character live in relation to those, not just generic "so did you like gymnastics in school" stuff that makes for a good story in only a handful of cases.
Less is more and focus is key. Allows you to control the narrative a bit and keeps your players from having the wrong expectations for your campaign.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Oddly enough, I seem to gain players more often than I lose them.
And besides, if I didn't have to run sessions every weekend maybe I'd get some writing done...
I'm just sayin', that "my way or the highway" is a crappy attitude to have for a cooperative storytelling wargame. I've been in those types of games, briefly. They're not fun.
The players stop having fun, causing the DM to work harder, causing the DM to become fatigued, causing a crappier attitude, causing the players to not have fun, rinse, repeat. It's a vicious cycle of not having fun.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: It's their game too.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arguskos
Then why do you? :smallconfused:
No, seriously, why do you DM? You do not seem to be enjoying it, and I've yet to see any of your posts that involve "man, my players were awesome last session, it was a blast, we all had a great time!" Every time you make a thread, it's... well, it's depressing. Lots of negative adjectives thrown at the PCs (and players), nothing positive going on. It doesn't give the impression that you *want* to be DMing, and your statement of "if I didn't have to run sessions" (emphasis mine) implies you'd rather be doing something else.
So, I ask you, why not go do something else? Just say "eh, screw it" and nick off to go write. They're probably adults or close enough, they can figure it out.
Because a story is more interesting when you don't know what's going to happen. With DnD, setting up the plot and seeing where the party goes with it is most of the fun. Problem being that nearly every player I've ever gotten is listless and makes no attempt whatsoever to find a plot unless I beat their faces into it.
I think I could run a great game if my players actually wanted to bloody participate. But no, every single time I get maybe one player that actually has a goal that they'll persue without me forcing them to, and the others are perfectly content to sit on their ass until the next party of bandits leap out of the bushes.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Problem being that nearly every player I've ever gotten is listless and makes no attempt whatsoever to find a plot unless I beat their faces into it.
This could be caused by the aforementioned "player-killing habits." It's not a competition to see how many characters you can kill before the session ends.
Have you ever even asked your players what interests them, or what their character's motivations might be?
I'm not being snide, I really want to know. Keeping your players interested in the game is kind of important. They may not want to follow the plot you throw at them, they may have other things they want to do with their characters. DnD isn't a one man (or woman) show. It's a cooperative game. Honestly, filling out a 50-question form isn't the way to get information. It's about as exciting as watching paint dry. Simply ask them, and take notes. Then build the plot for your adventure based on what interests the players.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsmiles
This could be caused by the aforementioned "player-killing habits." It's not a competition to see how many characters you can kill before the session ends.
I'm not that bad about it. It's just that every four sessions or so I miscalculate an encounter's difficulty and people wind up dead.
Quote:
Have you ever even asked your players what interests them, or what their character's motivations might be?
On the first question, no. Similarly, I don't go to a burger joint asking for pizza. If they don't like what I serve, seek amusement elsewhere.
On the second question, yes. Extensively.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
, I don't go to a burger joint asking for pizza. If they don't like what I serve, seek amusement elsewhere.
On the other hand... If you don't like what they serve (as players), why don't you try to seek amusement elsewhere? Get a new group and such with players who are more compatible with your playing style.
Or, as said, you could just try talking to the players more and hope they're nice enough to try and invest more in their characters once you've told them it's important to you as a Game Master. That works, too.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
On the first question, no. Similarly, I don't go to a burger joint asking for pizza. If they don't like what I serve, seek amusement elsewhere.
At the risk of mixing metaphors, you might be using the wrong bait on your plot hooks. The best way to fix this is to find out what the fish (your players) want to eat.
Quote:
On the second question, yes. Extensively.
And it looks like you're asking the wrong questions. Honestly, how often does the fact that a character is ticklish come up in a game? Have you looked over the questionnaire Oracle_Hunter posted at the bottom of the last page? I suggest using that one next time, and seeing what happens.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
I'm not that bad about it. It's just that every four sessions or so I miscalculate an encounter's difficulty and people wind up dead.
You should probably edit your first post, then. People are getting the impression that you're a character killing machine. :smalltongue:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
On the first question, no. Similarly, I don't go to a burger joint asking for pizza. If they don't like what I serve, seek amusement elsewhere.
That's still a crappy attitude to have for a cooperative storytelling wargame. Being unwilling to cooperate leads to a game where you get to tell your story, and nobody else gets to tell theirs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
On the second question, yes. Extensively.
That's a good start, but the players' interests are pretty important factors in telling the type of story that will keep them interested. If they're not interested in the story you want to tell, it kind of invalidates the whole game. There's this thing called "compromise," perhaps you should try it and see how it works out. I'm not trying to be an ***, I'm trying to help you get your players interested. I've been doing this for many, many, many years, and honestly, a huge part of running a fun game is cooperation on both the DM's and players' parts. Learn from other peoples' mistakes. It's better than making your own.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teln
And it looks like you're asking the wrong questions. Honestly, how often does the fact that a character is ticklish come up in a game? Have you looked over the questionnaire Oracle_Hunter posted at the bottom of the last page? I suggest using that one next time, and seeing what happens.
Like I said, I got that questionnaire from someone else. Really the only question I was really looking at was "what are your plans for the future?"
Most of them essentially answered "to **** around pointlessly for the rest of my life."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dsmiles
That's still a crappy attitude to have for a cooperative storytelling wargame. Being unwilling to cooperate leads to a game where you get to tell your story, and nobody else gets to tell theirs.
Thing is, I'm doing this as a hobby. Why should I bother putting any effort into it, several times more work than all of my players combined put into it, if I'm not going to enjoy the game I'm running?
If my players get sick of me and leave, they just need to find a new DM. If I get sick of it and leave my players, I need to find at least a quarter dozen more people to play with.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Like I said, I got that questionnaire from someone else.
Again, I encourage you to look at Oracle_Hunter's questionnaire. While you read it, ask yourself "What can I do with the likely answers to this?" Keep reading it until enlightenment dawns.
Quote:
Really the only question I was really looking at was "what are your plans for the future?"
If that was the only question you wanted the answer to, why did you ask the other 50?
Quote:
Most of them essentially answered "to **** around pointlessly for the rest of my life."
Could you give us their answers, without paraphrasing this time?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Thing is, I'm doing this as a hobby. Why should I bother putting any effort into it, several times more work than all of my players combined put into it, if I'm not going to enjoy the game I'm running?
Have you mentioned this point to your players? Because it seems to me that it would be best to sit them all down and say, "Running games with dull characters is boring, I'd like you all to work together and interact to make the game more interesting for everyone."
I can guarantee that killing their characters repeatedly will not improve your players' mind-reading capabilities to the point where they suddenly know what you'd like. You need to tell them, and perhaps sit down and help them set things up. (Note: Filling out questionaires and randomly assigning traits will not produce interesting connections that the players wish to roleplay.)
At the very least, the players who leave the group will be leaving because they're not interested in your playstyle, not because they think you get upset and kill them all the time for no reason.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Thing is, I'm doing this as a hobby. Why should I bother putting any effort into it, several times more work than all of my players combined put into it, if I'm not going to enjoy the game I'm running?
Now this is easily fixed: Get your players to quit slacking. Before your next campaign, go around and ask them if there's anything they'd like to see, like a city founded by a powerful mage who built the whole thing inside a bonsai tree, for example.
Alternatively, tell your players "Okay, all of your characters must know at least two of the other PCs before we start play". I've heard that one of the Star Wars pen-and-papers gets good results from this.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
I'm not that bad about it. It's just that every four sessions or so I miscalculate an encounter's difficulty and people wind up dead.
Might I suggest researching or inventing a plot armor mechanic to protect your players from such slip-ups? Capricious accidental TPKs are much easier to swallow if you've got the option to limp away rather than rolling another set of stats.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
Thing is, I'm doing this as a hobby. Why should I bother putting any effort into it, several times more work than all of my players combined put into it, if I'm not going to enjoy the game I'm running?
If my players get sick of me and leave, they just need to find a new DM. If I get sick of it and leave my players, I need to find at least a quarter dozen more people to play with.
That's where the compromise comes in. You've got to give a little to get a little. DMing is a lot like a job, in that. (Minus the getting paid part, unless you're really good at it.) You can't win 'em all. No matter how cliched that is, it's still true. (Of course, I manage to win a good majority of 'em, since I only game with friends. I would rather not play than run/play in a P-UG with a bunch of people I don't know.)
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teln
If that was the only question you wanted the answer to, why did you ask the other 50?
Some of them for potential plot hooks, some of them just to get them thinking.
Quote:
Could you give us their answers, without paraphrasing this time?
"I would like to have a family of my own/peaceful life." - Xumi Sanddancer
(*vomits in mouth a little*)
"Visit every country." - Darius Vajheer
(At least it's an excuse to travel, but the player pretty much explicitly told me it was a bull**** answer just to get the question over with.)
"Become emperor." - Aranesp Peste
(Look, someone with motivation!)
"To be the leader of the tribe." - Atem Lladnar
(Doesn't give him any reason to leave the tribe, and is unlikely to happen at all since all he ever does is follow his twin around.)
"Revenge on the guys who burned down his town. After that, one thing at a time." - Osama Jamal
(So I can dangle the revenge carrot in front of him for a few sessions, but as soon as that's taken care of he's back to faffing about.)
"To win Neela over and then get out of the desert and into the city." - Al-Ed Lladnar
(Once again, no reason to leave the tribe and is guaranteed to never succeed as a) Neela's married and b) he's a total creep who used to bully her brother.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erikun
Have you mentioned this point to your players? Because it seems to me that it would be best to sit them all down and say, "Running games with dull characters is boring, I'd like you all to work together and interact to make the game more interesting for everyone."
I explicitly told them this at the start of the CharGen session. It seems they ignored me.
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I can guarantee that killing their characters repeatedly will not improve your players' mind-reading capabilities to the point where they suddenly know what you'd like. You need to tell them, and perhaps sit down and help them set things up. (Note: Filling out questionaires and randomly assigning traits will not produce interesting connections that the players wish to roleplay.)
I don't kill them to get them to do what I want. I either kill them because a) they did something stupid and got themselves killed, b) I miscalculate the difficulty and they get smooshed or c) I was considering killing them off and outright telling them to write more motivated characters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Teln
Alternatively, tell your players "Okay, all of your characters must know at least two of the other PCs before we start play". I've heard that one of the Star Wars pen-and-papers gets good results from this.
/facepalm
I really should've just done that in the first place... :smallsigh:
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
I don't kill them to get them to do what I want. I either kill them because a) they did something stupid and got themselves killed, b) I miscalculate the difficulty and they get smooshed or c) I was considering killing them off and outright telling them to write more motivated characters.
Note that, to a player, death through DM accident and death through DM intention look surprisingly similar, especially when you tell them that you're interested in killing their characters on a regular basis.
Yeah, having the characters connected helps keep the group together. I'm not sure that it provides many more plot hooks, though.
Looking back at your responses to their backstory, though... what is so wrong with them? You seem to discount them as useless and not worthy, but there are still plenty of connections. Darius, who caused deaths 10 years ago? Well he simply gets a note delivered, telling him that his attendance to a get-together in the next town is "required" unless he wants his tribe to discover what happened back then. Who knows? Is it a bluff by a rival in the tribe, who suspects something and wants to get him out of the way? Did one of the victims actually survive? Did some wizard scry the truth to blackmail him - and if so, why would they scry the events of some random tribe ten years ago?
As for the others, there are ways of involving them on the journey. Al-Ed would be interested in travelling if Nessa (and her husband) suddenly left to become merchants. Atem could be motivated by having Akasha interested in his travels. Xumi could just be asked to attend the same get-together as Darius, perhaps because he's old enough to work and hasn't found it elsewhere. Osama and Aranesp could just be hired and the go-between for the group and their employer (which doesn't mean they necessarily know who it is). The rest of the group, Al-Ed and Atem, would attend the "meeting" either out of curiousity or with prompting from Nessa.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
"I would like to have a family of my own/peaceful life." - Xumi Sanddancer
(*vomits in mouth a little*)
"Visit every country." - Darius Vajheer
(At least it's an excuse to travel, but the player pretty much explicitly told me it was a bull**** answer just to get the question over with.)
"Become emperor." - Aranesp Peste
(Look, someone with motivation!)
"To be the leader of the tribe." - Atem Lladnar
(Doesn't give him any reason to leave the tribe, and is unlikely to happen at all since all he ever does is follow his twin around.)
"Revenge on the guys who burned down his town. After that, one thing at a time." - Osama Jamal
(So I can dangle the revenge carrot in front of him for a few sessions, but as soon as that's taken care of he's back to faffing about.)
"To win Neela over and then get out of the desert and into the city." - Al-Ed Lladnar
(Once again, no reason to leave the tribe and is guaranteed to never succeed as a) Neela's married and b) he's a total creep who used to bully her brother.)
Look, they did what you asked. They answered your questionnaire, and then what? You throw it back in their face.
You didn't get the replies that you wanted, based on a judgement of what is a 'good' character motivation in your own mind. Their replies didn't match that, so what? It's what they say is their character motivation. Give your players a break. If they are enjoying themselves, that's the point. Of course, you have to be enjoying yourself too.
What you're doing, it seems like, is trying to force them to play and do what you want. This is only going to end with your dissatisfaction and their frustration, or you without any players at all.
I wish you good luck. You're going to need it.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
erikun
Is it a bluff by a rival in the tribe, who suspects something and wants to get him out of the way?
The only enemy Darius has is Al-Ed (which is problematic in-and-of itself).
Quote:
Did one of the victims actually survive?
I thought of this, but why would they wait over a decade before returning?
Quote:
Did some wizard scry the truth to blackmail him - and if so, why would they scry the events of some random tribe ten years ago?
There aren't any wizards in this setting; it's EXTREMELY low-magic.
Quote:
As for the others, there are ways of involving them on the journey. Al-Ed would be interested in travelling if Nessa (and her husband) suddenly left to become merchants.
Valid.
Quote:
Atem could be motivated by having Akasha interested in his travels.
Unlikely, since she left before the start of the campaign, something Atem's player has so far failed to elaborate upon.
Quote:
Xumi could just be asked to attend the same get-together as Darius, perhaps because he's old enough to work and hasn't found it elsewhere.
Why would that happen? She's living a quiet life as a hunter.
Quote:
Osama and Aranesp could just be hired and the go-between for the group and their employer (which doesn't mean they necessarily know who it is).
Osama's not the mercenary type, though Aranesp might be willing to work for someone if they would help in his "take over the country" goals.
Quote:
The rest of the group, Al-Ed and Atem, would attend the "meeting" either out of curiousity or with prompting from Nessa.
I can't just tell them they're curious. And Nessa wouldn't want anything to do with the creeps.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Psycho
"I would like to have a family of my own/peaceful life." - Xumi Sanddancer
(*vomits in mouth a little*)
What's wrong with this? Isn't a major part of many good character bringing peace to the world? If the only way to have their peaceful life is adventuring to earn gold and beat the Big Bad, then so be it. I'm not sure why that's a terrible answer. It's a long term goal. A lot of adventurers retire eventually once their pile of gold has gotten too big for their n+1 Bags of holding. There's a 100:1 chance that any bar owner is likely a retired adventurer of some kind.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LansXero
Sorry if it comes off the wrong way, but if I had to answer 51 questions before playing a character I'd make a pretty flat one too. It seems like tedium may have hit your players :(
I don't think you'd much like what I'd produce either, let me be blunt. I suspect that at about question 21, I'd start rewriting critical portions of your campaign setting. Despite my reputation, I am not considered a problem player. Not a single GM has ever complained about me.
I think that maybe your expectations are somewhere between odd and zany.
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Kilbourne
Look, they did what you asked. They answered your questionnaire, and then what? You throw it back in their face.
You didn't get the replies that you wanted, based on a judgement of what is a 'good' character motivation in your own mind. Their replies didn't match that, so what? It's what they say is their character motivation. Give your players a break. If they are enjoying themselves, that's the point. Of course, you have to be enjoying yourself too.
I threw it back in their face because they came here to play a plot-heavy adventure game, and they respond by giving themselves goals that mostly involve sitting around or wandering aimlessly.
I need a goal to fit two criteria:
- They need to have a reason to travel.
- They need to have a goal to accomplish.
Of the six characters here, 2 of them have goals to accomplish but no reason to travel. One of them has a desire to travel but nothing to accomplish. And one of them has nothing at all.
I can't run a campaign that keeps every player occupied if only a third of them actually want to occupy themselves.
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Originally Posted by
Amnestic
What's wrong with this? Isn't a major part of many good character bringing peace to the world? If the only way to have their peaceful life is adventuring to earn gold and beat the Big Bad, then so be it. I'm not sure why that's a terrible answer. It's a long term goal. A lot of adventurers retire eventually once their pile of gold has gotten too big for their n+1 Bags of holding. There's a 100:1 chance that any bar owner is likely a retired adventurer of some kind.
Here's the issue, as I see it:
-She is currently living a peaceful life.
-Her goal is to live a peaceful life.
See how there's no motivation for her to change the status quo?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Psycho
I threw it back in their face because they came here to play a plot-heavy adventure game, and they respond by giving themselves goals that mostly involve sitting around or wandering aimlessly.
In this situation, I suggest that you grab an off-the-shelf adventure, a short one, and run it for a while. This should polish their characters, give them depth from play, and possibly reveal motivations. If it doesn't, nothing was going to.
Perhaps avail yourself of the Player Card subsystem from my A Very Long Trip adventure?
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-She is currently living a peaceful life.
-Her goal is to live a peaceful life.
See how there's no motivation for her to change the status quo?
Then have imperial soldiers stomp in through a time rift, blow the ever-living life out of her home town, grab some top soil, and leave. Why top soil? Because her town was worth less than the dirt it sat on. If you can shake your players out of the life they're living in game, how are you going to shake them out of the life they're living in real life?
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Re: Dragging a rounded character out of them, kicking and screaming.
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Originally Posted by
Doc Roc
In this situation, I suggest that you grab an off-the-shelf adventure, a short one, and run it for a while. This should polish their characters, give them depth from play, and possibly reveal motivations. If it doesn't, nothing was going to.
2 problems with that:
1) My setting is extremely specific and doesn't have room for the magical hijinks of 99.9% of prewritten adventures.
2) Right now I couldn't afford a full meal at McDonalds, let alone a DnD book.
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Then have imperial soldiers stomp in through a time rift, blow the ever-living life out of her home town, grab some top soil, and leave. Why top soil? Because her town was worth less than the dirt it sat on. If you can shake your players out of the life they're living in game, how are you going to shake them out of the life they're living in real life?
-Time rifts don't exist in this setting. In fact, if it didn't exist during the crusades IRL, assume it doesn't exist in this setting unless otherwise noted.
-What's stopping her from just moving to the next town over and just continuing where she left off?