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Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Because this didn't get resolved in the manner that I wanted too and its been a few days
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
In theory and in practice, it remains equally true that the build with which I was presented was categorically incapable of fighting a pit fiend. Hells, I even got someone to try to play the build against a pit fiend just to check that it wouldn't work (it didn't).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Florian
Now we talk. It would be interesting to compare your players build with my players build and go from there.
The build was this
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1223270 minus everything that wasn't a weapon or something that enhanced damage or accuracy , and I gave it all 18s because it was a thought experiment off of jormengand wanting to see a core fighter that could kill a pit fiend.
They got really uptight about using all 18s for what looked to be a thought experiment so I changed it to stats that I rolled once. It only had attack and damage things because it wasn't meant to be a complete character, just one that dished out enough damage.
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Originally Posted by
Jormengand
He's been following me from thread to thread, insisting that everyone from PF paladins to 3.5 core fighters are good, because they can do almost (but not quite) enough damage to kill things, if they roll straight 18s and are loaded up with arrows with all possible subtypebanes for the target in question, which is why high-level outsiders are no match for the wrath of a fighter, apparently. It's all very strange.
I believe you are confusing him with me, and I don't think I said that fighters are good. I might of said passable.
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Originally Posted by
Jormengand
It's less "This doesn't mean anything when wizard does..." and more "No, seriously, this doesn't do enough damage to kill it." Like, I'm talking about what actual people do in actual games, which is why I've said that about seven times this thread already.
You never responded to when I pointed out your math was wrong, you had rolls of AC values missing, and that it did enough damage to kill the pit fiend with an average attack.
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Originally Posted by
Florian
Can you do me the favor and actually post the build or at least a stub?
Edit: As you evaded the point the last time we got there, my guess is you canīt and youīre just a simple lier, perpetuating your "truths" without any meany to back it up.
Dollar for a dime that this will stay unanswered.
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Originally Posted by
Jormengand
You mean the build we spent several pages of another thread arguing about already?
No. I already discussed to death why the build doesn't work. I wrote at least a thousand words explaining it to you. You can guess all you like, but I've already explained the exact particulars of why fighters don't work the way you think they do.
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Originally Posted by
Florian
Either you dream or Iīm drunk. Being in the beer-business the later is a common day to day occurrence for me, so I rule that out. We argued about a Mythic Barbarian for which I didn't provide full stats, as it was equipped and outfitted according to a very specific campaign and I donīt see the point in sharing and comparing under that circumstances. You did not provide anything, neither a build nor a way to go from there.
I can provide that on the stipulation that you do your research on the rules, but can you?
As I mentioned above they are confusing you with me, this is the finished build,
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1223270 it wasn't originally made to fight a pit fiend, just put up enough damage to kill it like 40% of the time on a full attack. When I had clarification that that wasn't what they meant, and revised it they didn't respond
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
@Lans:
That conversation carried a heavy dose of spillover from a prior discussion on the same topic, Fighters vs. Pit Fiends. That didn'tīt have anything to do with your build, which is basically fine and proves the point.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
This does seem pretty good. I see only 3 complaints people could make: use 32 point buy instead, fear aura still gets through 40% of the time, and the specialized anti-balor ammo.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans
Because this didn't get resolved in the manner that I wanted to
This is mostly because I'm not going to believe that evil outsiders can't melt steel fighters, the moon astral projections were faked and we should wear tinfoil commoners to protect against mind control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
This does seem pretty good. I see only 3 complaints people could make: use 32 point buy instead, fear aura still gets through 40% of the time, and the specialized anti-balor ammo.
I can think of a few more - like "The pit fiend could grapple the fighter before the fighter knew that the pit fiend existed, if he didn't have yet two more items that were tailored to fight pit fiends because I pointed out in the last thread that this was a viable tactic for the pit fiend" or "You're wearing three rings and two sets of boots and three amulets and dear god did you even read the part where custom magic items require DM approval?"
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
As a DM, I would approve. He's paying the full x1.5 cost and inventing nothing new either effect-wise or location-wise. Furthermore, the MIC later ruled that the x1.5 need not be paid sometimes.
The spot related items are also excellent general purpose choices if that's what you are referring to about Pit Fiend detection. There is nothing wrong with revising his build to accommodate your objections.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
This does seem pretty good. I see only 3 complaints people could make: use 32 point buy instead, fear aura still gets through 40% of the time, and the specialized anti-balor ammo.
The offcial point buy of 3.5 is 25. Any claims about RAW must adhere to that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
I can think of a few more - like "The pit fiend could grapple the fighter before the fighter knew that the pit fiend existed, if he didn't have yet two more items that were tailored to fight pit fiends because I pointed out in the last thread that this was a viable tactic for the pit fiend" or "You're wearing three rings and two sets of boots and three amulets and dear god did you even read the part where custom magic items require DM approval?"
Hence with or without custom items solutions to challenges. Obviously the latter makes things different. Slightly less obviously it is in favor of classes with limited/no spell selection.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
As a DM, I would approve. He's paying the full x1.5 cost and inventing nothing new either effect-wise or location-wise. Furthermore, the MIC later ruled that the x1.5 need not be paid sometimes.
It still falls victim to the Oberoni Fallacy, though - the idea that if it can be fixed (with rule 0), it isn't broken. Yes, the DM can say "These guidelines for making homebrew are now rules", but that says more about the custom item rules than about the fighter.
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The spot related items are also excellent general purpose choices if that's what you are referring to about Pit Fiend detection. There is nothing wrong with revising his build to accommodate your objections.
I more mean the ring of FoM (not an item I see commonly) and the intelligent item with powers chosen to help the fighter against pit fiends (it has dimensional anchor and invisibility purge to the pit fiend's greater teleport and invsibility), and which deliberately didn't take two of the powers that it has to take, presumably to keep the item's ego from hitting the 21 it would have otherwise and therefore taking over the fighter (though why he didn't just save 3000 GP on getting a less powerful one I don't know), but the fighter still has to take will saves (which he still fails on a natural 1) or do what the item wants, not what he wants.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
It still falls victim to the Oberoni Fallacy, though - the idea that if it can be fixed (with rule 0), it isn't broken. Yes, the DM can say "These guidelines for making homebrew are now rules", but that says more about the custom item rules than about the fighter.
I more mean the ring of FoM (not an item I see commonly) and the intelligent item with powers chosen to help the fighter against pit fiends (it has dimensional anchor and invisibility purge to the pit fiend's greater teleport and invsibility), and which deliberately didn't take two of the powers that it has to take, presumably to keep the item's ego from hitting the 21 it would have otherwise and therefore taking over the fighter (though why he didn't just save 3000 GP on getting a less powerful one I don't know), but the fighter still has to take will saves (which he still fails on a natural 1) or do what the item wants, not what he wants.
Really? All my high levels characters either buy Ring of FOM or can cast it themselves. Dimensional Anchor and a means to beat Invisibility are also typical high level tools.
There is an entire handbook on things you need by the high levels to basically function against average encounters. All three of those are on it along with flight, special senses, tactical teleportation effects, and more.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Originally Posted by
Azoth
Really? All my high levels characters either buy Ring of FOM or can cast it themselves. Dimensional Anchor and a means to beat Invisibility are also typical high level tools.
Jormengand mentioned this briefly in the other thread. Isn't this discussion like a week or two old? I personally don't think FoM is an uncommon effect, but J doesn't put a lot of value on 'standard' defences. Personally I always like to have a ring of FoM, Heart of Water, or the actual spell up when I can reasonably afford it. There's a lot of monsters where if they grapple you you're just screwed, and a lot of movement restricting spells that are really nasty, even if you operate from the perspective that FoM doesn't work against mundane effects. Heart of Water is a 3rd level spell that gives you access to FoM pretty much once per day, and the ring of FoM isn't all that expensive at higher levels.
I very much would like to see a fighter build that could reliably kill a pit fiend without custom magic items and with 32 PB, though. In my experience the former are almost never allowed. W
Also, what are "anti-fire dragon", "anti-ice dragon", "anti-balor"?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Fighter v Pit Fiend |
Core only |
All 1st party splats |
All 1st&3rd party |
no UMD |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
UMD |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
UMD and custom items |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Summary for cell "A1" so far.
Going down the cells aids only the Fighter. Going right the cells greatly expands the Fighter options, and slightly expands the Pit Fiend's options.
Considering all of the above, it's hardest to prove the Fighter wins A1, and if he does, then he wins them all.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanos
Isn't this discussion like a week or two old?
Yup. The others have been popping up in basically any thread where I've posted (or even where I haven't) so that they can have a go at me, all the while insisting that caster superiority is fake and that fighters are actually good. It's obvious bait, but it's funny so I'm willing to let myself get dragged in to their bizarre conspiracy theory thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
Here
Fighter v Pit Fiend |
Core only |
All 1st party splats |
All 1st&3rd party |
no UMD |
PF wins? |
tough one? |
Fighter likely wins |
UMD |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
UMD and custom items |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
We went over why UMD doesn't help the fighter, and I'm still not convinced that it wins with the custom items either.
But then, given that partially charged wands are custom items which require UMD, I'm not surprised.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I'd prefer to see someone make an actual fighter not knowing specifically what on enemy they were going to be fighting, so they can't metagame the build, make the build, not use things like intelligent magic items (that are both purely DM fiat, and also metagamed) and not using custom magic items, and not using UMD, but using the 1.5times cost for two functions on an item, and the MIC rules about how basic bonuses don't do that.
Ideally, we'd see that fighter every level 1-20, or at specific levels, like 5/6, 9-11, 14-16, and then we could compare that fighter not built to fight a specific enemy to a different collection of enemies, to see if they are actually designed to beat one specific enemy and their tactics, or if they are more generally useful against a bunch of enemies.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
Yup. The others have been popping up in basically any thread where I've posted (or even where I haven't) so that they can have a go at me, all the while insisting that caster superiority is fake and that fighters are actually good. It's obvious bait, but it's funny so I'm willing to let myself get dragged in to their bizarre conspiracy theory thing.
Well, I don't think not being able to one round CR 20 at level 20 is a great qualifier to call a class bad. Fighters aren't absolute garbage against core threats, they just don't absolutely destroy them like some of the other PHB classes can if played well.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanos
Well, I don't think not being able to one round CR 20 at level 20 is a great qualifier to call a class bad. Fighters aren't absolute garbage against core threats, they just don't absolutely destroy them like some of the other PHB classes can if played well.
I'm not insisting that it should be able to kill the pit fiend in one round, so much as before the pit fiend murderises his face. The fact that those are fairly similar lengths of time isn't my fault.
Also, if you can't do your job (fighting) and can't do anything else either, then you're not really very much of a success as a class.
Finally, the massive levels of optimisation going into this attempt to kill the said pit fiend imply that the fighter class itself has very little to do with it.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
I'm not insisting that it should be able to kill the pit fiend in one round, so much as before the pit fiend murderises his face. The fact that those are fairly similar lengths of time isn't my fault.
I think it would take at least two or three rounds for the pit fiend to toast a 20th level fighter, simply because it can't blasphemy it to oblivion and most of its tactics revolve around HP damage.
Quote:
Also, if you can't do your job (fighting) and can't do anything else either, then you're not really very much of a success as a class.
Fighters can't fight great by forum standards, but they're ok in a 4 man party against core monster manual threats.
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Finally, the massive levels of optimisation going into this attempt to kill the said pit fiend imply that the fighter class itself has very little to do with it.
You aren't wrong here; it reminds me a little bit of Tippy's monk test where people were stacking so much stuff on the "monks" that they probably could have been commoners and been just as effective.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanos
Fighters can't fight great by forum standards, but they're ok in a 4 man party against core monster manual threats.
They really aren't. What they are is "present while the rest of the party does things" against CR threats. But I've played games with parties of 3, because we have games with 4 players and sometimes people don't show. 3 PCs can handle a lot of challenges, when they are real PCs. If you took out the fighter and replaced him with an animated skeleton or half his CR equipped with the same items, the party could probably get along just as well.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emeraldstreak
Here
Fighter v Pit Fiend |
Core only |
All 1st party splats |
All 1st&3rd party |
no UMD |
PF wins? |
tough one? |
Fighter likely wins |
UMD |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
UMD and custom items |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
Fighter wins |
UMD mainly concerns cost-benefit-ratio of buffs and simulating things you can expect to have in a regular party of four. Donīt even have to go too deep into custom items at that point. (For ex fly, FoM, ProtEvil, and so on)
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Beheld
I'd prefer to see someone make an actual fighter not knowing specifically what on enemy they were going to be fighting, so they can't metagame the build, make the build, not use things like intelligent magic items (that are both purely DM fiat, and also metagamed) and not using custom magic items, and not using UMD, but using the 1.5times cost for two functions on an item, and the MIC rules about how basic bonuses don't do that.
Ideally, we'd see that fighter every level 1-20, or at specific levels, like 5/6, 9-11, 14-16, and then we could compare that fighter not built to fight a specific enemy to a different collection of enemies, to see if they are actually designed to beat one specific enemy and their tactics, or if they are more generally useful against a bunch of enemies.
I see no problem with a fighter equipped to fight Devils or Demons if that's the direction the campaign is going.
If you're running the Savage Tide campaign for example, you have to expect Holy, Axiomatic, Evil Outsider Bane & Cold Iron to be high priority things for the fighter-types to focus on getting.
Edit:
P.S. 25-point buy is crap. I play RPGs to play HEROES, not to play barely above average guys. And at least with 32-point buy, you can allow for Templates. Especially if you use the E6 rules on point buy reduction for templates.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
It still falls victim to the Oberoni Fallacy, though - the idea that if it can be fixed (with rule 0), it isn't broken. Yes, the DM can say "These guidelines for making homebrew are now rules", but that says more about the custom item rules than about the fighter.
There are degrees here, and this use seems quite minor. The tinfoil hat approach that wizardphiles use to claim antimagic can't touch them seems significantly more egregious in practice.
The intelligent item is however a step beyond what makes me comfortable, so the 4 picking points for me are:
- Should be 32 point buy (or less)
- Avoid intelligent item.
- 40% chance fear gets through is worrisomely high.
- Very expensive specialized ammo.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dagroth
P.S. 25-point buy is crap. I play RPGs to play HEROES, not to play barely above average guys. And at least with 32-point buy, you can allow for Templates. Especially if you use the E6 rules on point buy reduction for templates.
I agree that fighters are great if you ignore all the parts of the rules where they aren't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
There are degrees here, and this use seems quite minor. The tinfoil hat approach that wizardphiles use to claim antimagic can't touch them seems significantly more egregious in practice.
I also agree that that trick doesn't work if you ignore all of the parts of the rules which say it does.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
I agree that fighters are great if you ignore all the parts of the rules where they aren't.
I also agree that that trick doesn't work if you ignore all of the parts of the rules which say it does.
Oddly enough, the rules don't state that any specific number is required for Point Buy... so your argument is invalid.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dagroth
Oddly enough, the rules don't state that any specific number is required for Point Buy... so your argument is invalid.
I... meant the part where you decided we were using E6 rules out of nowhere.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I have to call it guys: anyone thinking a level 20 Player Character pouring his WBL into UMD won't defeat a Pit Fiend is just naive. Mind you, that has nothing to do with Fighters.
A slightly more useful test would be consistently defeating Pit Fiends, say 1 per day for 1 year. But considering Pit Fiend treasure is the standard 80,000 + double items, while a scroll of Shapechange is 3,825 and a scroll of Wish 28,825...I don't see much chance for the Pit Fiends there as well.
Now suppress any desire to raise objections that are summarily defeated even by the most basic UMD optimization bible, and let's focus on the meat in the Fighter v Pit Fiend argument, which is the uppermost line in the table, where it actually matters what class the player character is.
The reasons behind the present annotation is:
Core (likely) to Pit Fiend: basically, the original Fighter's weaknesses exposed with few magic items on the market to shore them up
3rd Party (likely) to Fighter: well, considering at the very least the Fighter is now immune to hit point damage and will one-shot the paltry hit points of the Fiend...
And in the middle, all 1st party splats...they certainly raise the Fighter's deadliness, but do they give him enough battlefield control and/or staying power to survive the Pit Fiend?
If it isn't obvious, if the pro-Fighter guys prove he wins in the Core (without UMD/customs), it's all over for the Pit Fiend. Meanwhile, if the pro-Pit Fiend guys can make a solid argument for the devil's victory against all 1st party or even better all 1st+3rd party, that be an ignominious outcome for the Fighter as a class.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
This does seem pretty good. I see only 3 complaints people could make: use 32 point buy instead, fear aura still gets through 40% of the time, and the specialized anti-balor ammo.
I am aiming at the high end of what is possible, figure start at the high point and work down, the fear aura is only 20 feet, hopefully the fight starts beyond this, the specialized ammo and intelligent item is a bit much, but this is a core solo build with out caster support. In an actual campaign I would imagine the archer still has cold iron bane arrows, maybe the anti law or chaos enhancements, but the holy and elemental properties get popped onto the bow, which a caster would cast GMW on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
I can think of a few more - like "The pit fiend could grapple the fighter before the fighter knew that the pit fiend existed, if he didn't have yet two more items that were tailored to fight pit fiends because I pointed out in the last thread that this was a viable tactic for the pit fiend" or "You're wearing three rings and two sets of boots and three amulets and dear god did you even read the part where custom magic items require DM approval?"
Are you saying that he only has the ring of freedom of movement because you brought the tactic up? Because having something to handle grapples is just basic supplies for a solo venture. If this was noncore then weapon supremacy or close quarters fighting would be chosen over this. In a party scenario the monster using is super beneficial to the rogue and gives other characters free whacks.
The intelligent item is more for the blindsense, the invisibility purge was just a bonus. Also, anti invisibility tactics are a must for like levels beyond 5.
I don't consider combining item effects to be out of bounds, its an effect that was already priced and balanced, and their is a set price modifier for adding them. Its not like I'm using a 2k sword of truestrike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jormengand
I more mean the ring of FoM (not an item I see commonly) and the intelligent item with powers chosen to help the fighter against pit fiends (it has dimensional anchor and invisibility purge to the pit fiend's greater teleport and invsibility), and which deliberately didn't take two of the powers that it has to take, presumably to keep the item's ego from hitting the 21 it would have otherwise and therefore taking over the fighter (though why he didn't just save 3000 GP on getting a less powerful one I don't know), but the fighter still has to take will saves (which he still fails on a natural 1) or do what the item wants, not what he wants.
I chose 5 powers, dimension anchor cmw, bless faeerie fire, and invisible purge the dimensional anchor probably isn't going to matter, the invisibility purge is mostly a waste when the item has faerie fire and blind sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zanos
Also, what are "anti-fire dragon", "anti-ice dragon", "anti-balor"?
Shorthand for specialized arrows. In core the archer needs it to one round the pit fiend, so in order to justify that I had to cover the other big threats of that level.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I made a column for if effects can't be combined. I didn't think combining effects would fall under things that need DM permission. Its in the feats and special abilities section of the character sheet.
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1223270
It freed up a pile of cash, knocked the AC down by 8 points, upped some skills, lost the displacement effect, gained protection from evil in exchange for invisibility purge
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I will point out again what the OP is missing as an argument:
That a NAKED Wizard 20 can beat a Pit Fiend just armed with class skills. A Fighter can not.
A fighter needs support from all kinds of *magical* sources, including UMD which is for intents and purposes actually wizard spells, to beat a PF.
To be clear: The argument isn't if a level 20 Fighter fully equipped with magical stuff can beat PF or not. The argument is that Fighter with his *class skills* alone can not.
Why is this argument of this form? Because other classes that are NOT wizards can also do it, sometimes even better, such as Cleric or Druid. Even Rogues.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
logic_error
I will point out again what the OP is missing as an argument:
That a NAKED Wizard 20 can beat a Pit Fiend just armed with class skills. A Fighter can not.
A fighter needs support from all kinds of *magical* sources, including UMD which is for intents and purposes actually wizard spells, to beat a PF.
To be clear: The argument isn't if a level 20 Fighter fully equipped with magical stuff can beat PF or not. The argument is that Fighter with his *class skills* alone can not.
Why is this argument of this form? Because other classes that are NOT wizards can also do it, sometimes even better, such as Cleric or Druid. Even Rogues.
Could you describe what you mean by a "NAKED" Wizard? And, I'm not sure why you're saying that a Fighter should be stripped of magical stuff, since D&D is all about gathering neat magical items and using them to murder monsters.
To be devil's advocate, though, it's not likely that a naked Cleric or Druid would be able to kill a Pit Fiend, since they both need divine focuses to channel their spells through...
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The_Jette
To be devil's advocate, though, it's not likely that a naked Cleric or Druid would be able to kill a Pit Fiend, since they both need divine focuses to channel their spells through...
I don't think the pit fiend needs an advocate. Though it might need one against a cleric who was naked, but carrying a holy symbol, which I'm pretty sure you can do while naked.
Not that the ability of a cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard, psion or even truenamer to fight a pit fiend was in question so much as the fighter's.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The_Jette
Could you describe what you mean by a "NAKED" Wizard? And, I'm not sure why you're saying that a Fighter should be stripped of magical stuff, since D&D is all about gathering neat magical items and using them to murder monsters.
To be devil's advocate, though, it's not likely that a naked Cleric or Druid would be able to kill a Pit Fiend, since they both need divine focuses to channel their spells through...
Worldly focus if we are talking toally naked. But, yeah, I imagined the crucial stuff like favored weapon and armour and shield on a fighter a part of nakedness. Don't expect them to go all fist and teeth. Equivalent of that for clerics would the symbol.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
logic_error
Worldly focus if we are talking toally naked. But, yeah, I imagined the crucial stuff like favored weapon and armour and shield on a fighter a part of nakedness. Don't expect them to go all fist and teeth. Equivalent of that for clerics would the symbol.
Question is, why would we expect anyone to tackle a CR20 challenge naked. Even more so, considering he's actually supposed to be soloing said challenge.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
@logic error:
Simply stop and think about it. In the d20 system, the job of the Fighter is to focus on raw combat, be easy to be buffed-up and help enable the other members of a group to do their job, like providing flanking or "tanking" so the casters actually donīt have to waste spells on their own defense.
WBL is a fixed part of the system and plays heavily into what CR can be engaged and won and what will be impossible. Now letīs talk about the "Solo Fighter" and what that means: We now have to decide between utility and focus on combat, because the Fighter has to provide the aforementioned buffs/cures with its own WBL now. Itīs bordering on the insulting that with the mindset thatīs displayed towards what a "mundane" should be able to do, youīve got to decide between "Boots of Speed" and "Boots of Flying", when the truth is that you can pack some wand of Flight and Haste and chose entirely different kind of footwear - the hit to WBL is still there to cover the additional "solo cost".
But letīs take the "mundane" argument to the next step: The regular PF Fighter can get some of the Craft XY feats as bonus feats and use them with either Craft: Armorsmith or Craft: Weaponsmith in an entirely mundane way, so outfitting yourself with some Luck Blades and chain-crafting Candles of Invocation (both at the regular 50% discount for crafting) is a fairly plain option.
You will also more or less automatically go into UMD, as that is a prerequisite for the "Item Mastery" feats, which help mundanes "pimp" their equipment.
Lastly, WBL itself. Even when going for the real pricy items, like a Foesplitter as main, Luck Blade as backup weapon and wearing Lenses of True Seeing, itīs hard to cram more than 50% into pure equipment and maybe 20% into inherent boni (*)
So, overall, using extremely powerful magic/spells in not tied to a specific class, itīs tied to the specific spell. Stuff like the "Zodar"-trick are open to anyone being able to get their hands on Shapechange, no matter if spell known or scroll.
So please stop this specific version of the "guy at the gym"-fallacy.
(*) And itīs just a sensible thing to set up your own contingencies, ranging from "wearing" a Cassian Angel to CLW you when dropping below zero hp and covering the fact that youīre actually wearing a Cap of the Free Thinker, to contracting a high-level outsider to "gate in and get me up to shape when I go down in battle within the next year".
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
logic_error
I will point out again what the OP is missing as an argument:
That a NAKED Wizard 20 can beat a Pit Fiend just armed with class skills. A Fighter can not.
A fighter needs support from all kinds of *magical* sources, including UMD which is for intents and purposes actually wizard spells, to beat a PF.
To be clear: The argument isn't if a level 20 Fighter fully equipped with magical stuff can beat PF or not. The argument is that Fighter with his *class skills* alone can not.
Why is this argument of this form? Because other classes that are NOT wizards can also do it, sometimes even better, such as Cleric or Druid. Even Rogues.
Whether other classes can do something or not is immaterial to whether a core fighter can handle something or not with the assumed resources of his level. Also, if you go over who can and can not handle a pit fiend 'naked', I expect their to be almost as many classes who can, as those who can not.
If we are expanding out of core I imagine a fighter might be able to handle the pit fiend with a boomerang or intimidation shenanigans.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
After playing with Lans's build a bit I have a core halfling sniper fighter 20 that can eat Pit Fiends and many other big bads with good odds of success. Relative to Lans's build, the halfling has a much higher Hide & Move Silently while avoiding super-expensive ammunition, avoiding intelligent items, not doing any custom items, and using a 32 point buy for stats. The only caveat is that I'm using rules from other parts of the game implying that standard bonuses can be added to items (MIC) and armor enhancements can be added to bracers (A&E). The build takes some advantage of various core potions and oils at a burn rate which seems reasonable at 20th level.
There are several levels of attack/defense starting with detection.
Spoiler: Detection and Surprise
Show
The halfling sniper has a Hide of 51 which is 71 with invisibility (available all the time via the ring). Move Silently is only 45 although a potion of silence can make it effective infinity for a short time. The Pit Fiend never succeeds with Spot(29) and can only succeeds with Listen (29) 2.5% of the time.
Both contestants have Darkvision 60'.
In the other direction, the Pit Fiend can often Hide (25) vs the Halfling's Spot(19) although if the Pit Fiend tries to use Invisibility or other magic, the Halfling's Permanency Detect Magic will ping at 60' and give away the game.
Overall, both contestants might miss each other, but the halfling has a huge advantage in tactical information gathering implying the Halfling almost always wins a surprise round. In a surprise round, the halfling can either snipe with an arrow at range (45 expected damage) or snipe with 4 arrows at close range using Manyshot for an expected 164 damage.
It is very unlikely but possible the Pit Fiend wins a surprise round. In that case, the Fear Aura has only a 30% chance of success while the Pit Fiends best standard action option is unclear. A flat-footed Meteor Swarm at least inflicts ~30 damage with improved fire resistance quenching the fire damage. This is still not enough to make Power Word Stun viable.
The surprise round is not completely decisive although it heavily favors the halfling. The first round on the other hand is usually decisive in favor of the halfling.
Spoiler: First round
Show
The halfling has an initiative bonus of +20 while the Pit Fiend only has +12 so the halfling wins initiative 83% of the time.
The halfling does a rapid hasted full attack with the bow using 6 arrows and doing an expected 244 damage against a Pit Fiend's full armor class. Against a flat-footed Pit Fiend or one within 30', it's of course even more damage.
The Pit Fiend is stuck in a hope&pray situation against AC 53, Fortitude save 27, Reflex save 29+Evasion, and a Will save of 26 vs fear or Will 22 vs. spells with immunity to compulsions and charms (i.e. Power Word Stun or Mass Hold monster). Either Meteor Swarm (expected 20 damage) or Greater Dispel Magic (which strips some protections) are reasonable choices. But the best course of action for the Pit Fiend is typically to run away (via Greater Teleport) and find allies. If the Pit Fiend's combat is unexpected (which it generally should not be given the enormous stealth advantage) the fear aura or mass hold monster have at least a reasonable minority chance (30%) of getting through.
Overall, the fighter can and likely will 1-round kill while the Pit Fiend can do little.
The last important point to consider is range of engagement.
Spoiler: Range
Show
The Pit Fiend can theoretically attack from a range of 1120' although that is severely limited by Spot checks.
The halfling can attack from a range of 1650' with Far Shot on a composite longbow. Again, this is severely limited by Spot checks.
The halfling can snipe at 190' hitting 95% of the time and always successfully hiding afterwards. Even at 30', the halfling can snipe with a powerful Multiattack and successfully hide 66% of the time.
I'll post the details when I get a chance.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Iīve been fooling around with a PF version of Lansī archer.
CRB only: I agree with Arrowhale, Halfing has the better options.
PRD only: Fetchlings now open up more utility.
All Paizo: Human.
(Edit: Family came to visit for a weekend, so that limits my time for this)
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
It's funny how I've been complaining that fighters are incompetent in 3.5 (the insane amount of optimisation, specifically to fight pit fiends, which doesn't actually let you fight them reliably anyway, is a good example of this) and the consistent response is "But what about Pathfinder?" Well, what about it? It's no more relevant to the discussion than homebrew fighter fixes are. Less, even, because it's not even designed for the same system.
EDIT: Also "And what about this obscure 3.0 rule which implies that you can maybe do this thing I want to do?"
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
"Bordering on insulting"
This is what I am worried about. Your perception seems to be that I *hate* mundanes or something. No, not at all. All I am saying that the D&D 3.5 is biased towards casters. That *is* a problem and we need to acknowledge it so that it can be fixed. By continually asserting that this is not the case won't make your arguments look saner.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Haven't been following the weeks of discussion, but this thread by itself (a more manageable read) boils down to one point for me (which probably means I don't get it, but conversation is half of learning).
"WBL can defeat a pit fiend, so any hero with access to WBL can also defeat a pit fiend."
Two corrolaries of this: "is it fair to judge the fighter based on resources available to every character?" This essentially amounts to, "if you stick the same magic items on a commoner, can you tell the difference?"
This says you can't learn anything useful about the fighter through their ability to use magic items.
The other corrolary is like it:
"Is it fair to judge them without resources that all characters were meant to have?"
This says you can't learn anything useful about the fighter without considering their ability to use magic items.
A supplemental point seems to be: the wizard can win even without WBL, demonstrating it is superior to the fighter.
Have I got it right so far?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
After playing with Lans's build a bit I have a core halfling sniper fighter 20 that can eat Pit Fiends and many other big bads with good odds of success. Relative to Lans's build, the halfling has a much higher Hide & Move Silently while avoiding super-expensive ammunition, avoiding intelligent items, not doing any custom items, and using a 32 point buy for stats. The only caveat is that I'm using rules from other parts of the game implying that standard bonuses can be added to items (MIC) and armor enhancements can be added to bracers (A&E). The build takes some advantage of various core potions and oils at a burn rate which seems reasonable at 20th level.
There are several levels of attack/defense starting with detection.
The halfling sniper has a Hide of 51 which is 71 with invisibility (available all the time via the ring). Move Silently is only 45 although a potion of silence can make it effective infinity for a short time. The Pit Fiend never succeeds with Spot(29) and can only succeeds with Listen (29) 2.5% of the time.
Both contestants have Darkvision 60'.
The Pit Fiend, like all Devils, has a racial see in darkness of infinite range. He can see your halfling from any distance. Balor's have True Seeing for 120ft seeing in Darkness and piercing invis which is your only grounds for making hide checks at all, Dragon's have blindsense, and Titan's have Invisibility Purge 100ft.
Many of these monsters, including the Pit Fiend, have something like Persistent Image at will which allows them to have a defensive array of images that prevent you from successfully sniping the Pit Fiend, because you snipe something else you think you see instead.
Also the Pit Fiend has a large army of Mummies and Morhgs around it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
In the other direction, the Pit Fiend can often Hide (25) vs the Halfling's Spot(19) although if the Pit Fiend tries to use Invisibility or other magic, the Halfling's Permanency Detect Magic will ping at 60' and give away the game.
While a Pit Fiend will certainly be invisible at the start of any fight, there will be visible images for you to waste time attacking. Detect Magic requires one round of concentration to even tell you that magical auras are present at all, I doubt you are going around spending standard actions detecting magical auras with your standard action at all times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
Overall, both contestants might miss each other, but the halfling has a huge advantage in tactical information gathering implying the Halfling almost always wins a surprise round. In a surprise round, the halfling can either snipe with an arrow at range (45 expected damage) or snipe with 4 arrows at close range using Manyshot for an expected 164 damage.
I hope you took into account the +4 deflection bonus to AC from Unholy Aura. But again, the halfing does not have any advantage in tactical information, he probably has a huge disadvantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
It is very unlikely but possible the Pit Fiend wins a surprise round. In that case, the Fear Aura has only a 30% chance of success while the Pit Fiends best standard action option is unclear. A flat-footed Meteor Swarm at least inflicts ~30 damage with improved fire resistance quenching the fire damage. This is still not enough to make Power Word Stun viable.
If the Pit Fiend spots you before you make a surprise attack against an image, Targeted Greater Dispel Magic is probably the opening go to, since that allows his legion of mummies and morghs to attack you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
The halfling has an initiative bonus of +20 while the Pit Fiend only has +12 so the halfling wins initiative 83% of the time.
The halfling does a rapid hasted full attack with the bow using 6 arrows and doing an expected 244 damage against a Pit Fiend's full armor class. Against a flat-footed Pit Fiend or one within 30', it's of course even more damage.
The Pit Fiend is stuck in a hope&pray situation against AC 53, Fortitude save 27, Reflex save 29+Evasion, and a Will save of 26 vs fear or Will 22 vs. spells with immunity to compulsions and charms (i.e. Power Word Stun or Mass Hold monster). Either Meteor Swarm (expected 20 damage) or Greater Dispel Magic (which strips some protections) are reasonable choices. But the best course of action for the Pit Fiend is typically to run away (via Greater Teleport) and find allies. If the Pit Fiend's combat is unexpected (which it generally should not be given the enormous stealth advantage) the fear aura or mass hold monster have at least a reasonable minority chance (30%) of getting through.
Uh... Wait, you aren't even immune to fear? How did you fair against the 20+ saves against Mummy Despair before even getting a chance to shoot at the Persistent Image of an enemy.
But actually, the Pit Fiend can move over to within 40ft of you (absolutely no problem, because you apparently rely on your 60ft Darkvision) and then Blasphemy you, Dazing you for one round, and repeat infinitely while the Morghs/Mummies fish for crits to kill you.
Although, he could summon another Pit Fiend, since he's invisible, and you just sniped an image, he probably won't, because so far you seem singularly unthreatening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
Overall, the fighter can and likely will 1-round kill while the Pit Fiend can do little.
This looks like a 100% Pit Fiend Victory to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
The halfling can snipe at 190' hitting 95% of the time and always successfully hiding afterwards. Even at 30', the halfling can snipe with a powerful Multiattack and successfully hide 66% of the time.
The halfing must have cover or concealment to hide, where are you getting this after you blow your invis sniping?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Where the heck did the Morhgs & Mummies come from? They're certainly not part of the Balor's stat block or his CR.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
This essentially amounts to, "if you stick the same magic items on a commoner, can you tell the difference?"
This is the correct test. The effectiveness of the Fighter with magic items should be assessed not on whether he can do stuff with them, but on whether he can do stuff with them that is better than what a Commoner can do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dagroth
Where the heck did the Morhgs & Mummies come from? They're certainly not part of the Balor's stat block or his CR.
One assumes the Pit Fiend (not Balor) used its CL 18 create undead to make them. They are part of its CR because they are created with one of its abilities (and therefore do not count against CR per the DMG).
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cosi
One assumes the Pit Fiend (not Balor) used its CL 18 create undead to make them. They are part of its CR because they are created with one of its abilities (and therefore do not count against CR per the DMG).
I find that a little questionable, and if true, really sucks for people dealing with vampires, shadows and the like. So Source?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans
I find that a little questionable, and if true, really sucks for people dealing with vampires, shadows and the like. So Source?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMG, page 37
Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers.
The DMG is pretty clear that you don't bump up difficulty for beating something that has summoned a bunch of other things it has the ability to summon. And yeah, the designers seem to have forgotten that to some degree with some monsters. But in this case, mummies (CR 5) and mohrgs (CR 8) are both well into the range where they should be a speedbump for PCs. If adding some CR 5 enemies to a CR 20 one shatters your Fighter's strategy, that seems like proof it was too fragile to be legitimate (which I think is the point some people are making).
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dagroth
Where the heck did the Morhgs & Mummies come from? They're certainly not part of the Balor's stat block or his CR.
As noted, they come from his Create Undead at will, and are accounted for in his CR and statblock, and also, literally wouldn't increase the EL of an encounter for a level 20 party anyway, since the rules even say as much, even aside from the rules Cosi cited, since they say that huge collections of very much lower threats are not worth anything to PCs.
And yes, the point is, that if a strategy relies on the Pit Fiend not using create undead, that strategy is no more viable than one that relies on him not using fireball, or not using invisibility, or not using Persistent Image.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I think it seemed rather clear that the DMG rule is only suposed to apply to summoned creatures with a finite duration.
Because alternatively you could have an infinite horde of Wights that would only be the CR 3 of the initial wight that started the spawning snowball.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cosi
The DMG is pretty clear that you don't bump up difficulty for beating something that has summoned a bunch of other things it has the ability to summon. And yeah, the designers seem to have forgotten that to some degree with some monsters. But in this case, mummies (CR 5) and mohrgs (CR 8) are both well into the range where they should be a speedbump for PCs. If adding some CR 5 enemies to a CR 20 one shatters your Fighter's strategy, that seems like proof it was too fragile to be legitimate (which I think is the point some people are making).
The create undead ability isn't a summon ability though, and the pit fiend has no ability to control the undead it summons.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans
The create undead ability isn't a summon ability though, and the pit fiend has no ability to control the undead it summons.
"or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers."
But yes, he relies on his flying and invisibility to prevent them from attacking him. Or perhaps agreements about feeding them people.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
"or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers."
If you want to get that technical though, then the Pit Fiend is not adding them to its forces. Each of them are created independently, and become their own force.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Here's the Halfling Fighter 20 Sniper Build.
Spoiler: Abilities and Feats
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Strength 14 = 14-2 race -2 size +4 enhancement
Dexterity 34 = 18+2 race +2 size +5 levels +1 inherent +6 enhancement
Constitution 16 = 10 + 6 enhancement
Intelligence 14
Wisdom 16 = 10+6(enhancement)
Charisma 8
Fighter Bonus Feats:
1. Weapon Focus(Longbow)
2. Point Blank Shot
4. Weapon Specialization(Longbow)
6. Rapid Shot
8. Greater Weapon Focus(Longbow)
10. Precise Shot
12. Greater Weapon Specialization(Longbow)
14. Manyshot
16. Improved Critical (Longbow)
18. Improved Initiative
20. Combat Reflexes
Feats:
1. Iron Will
3. Skill Focus(Sleight of Hand)
6. Stealthy
9. Alertness
12. Weapon Finesse
15. Skill Focus(Move Silently)
18. Skill Focus(Spot)
Spoiler: Spending 760K gp
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Permanent items.
- Neck: Hand og Glory, Constitution+6, Wisdom+6+Natural Armor+1: 82K
- Arms: Greater Bracers of Archery: 25K
- Shoulders: Cloak of Resistance+5: 25K
- Waist: Strength+4: 16K
- Feat: Boots of Speed+Boots of Winter: 15.75K
- Eyes: Gem of Seeing + Eye of Eagle: 77.5K
- Hands: Gloves of Dexterity+6 + Locking gauntlet + Silver Spiked Gauntlet+1: 38.333K
- Body: Mithril Chain Shirt+2+Greater Silent Moves+Greater Shadow: 72.6K
- Head: Hat of Disguise: 1.8K
- Torso: nothing
- Ring 1: Freedom of Movement+Deflect+1: 42K
- Ring 2: Invisibility+Sustenance: 23.75K
- Ring 3: Blinking: 27
- Shield: Buckler+2: 4.165K
- Weapon: Darkwood Composite (+2) Longow+1+Holy+Seeking+Flame+Frost+Shock+Merciful: 128.60375K
- Backup Bow: Darkwood Composite(+2) Longbow: 0.30375
- Slotless?: Masterwork tools of Move Silently, Hide, Sleight of Hand, and Spot .2K
- Slotless: Obsidian Steed: 28.5K
- Slotless: Luckblade (0 Wishes): 22.5K
- Slotless: Handy Haversak: 2K
- Slotless: Darkwood Tower Shield: 0.23625
- Slotless: Manual Dexterity+1: 27.5K
Expendables. The number of expendables for a one-shot is 1/5th rounded down or the number after the slash in special cases.
- Arrows: 200 Cold Iron+Darkwood: 1.258K
- Arrows: 90 Silver+Darkwood: 0.737K
- Arrows: 30 Cold Iron+1+Axiomatic+Darkwood: 12.246K
- Arrows: 30 Silver+1+Anarchic+Darkwood: 11.046K
- Arrows: 30 Adamantium+Darkwood: 1.806K
- Arrows: 30 +1+Unholy+Silver+Darkwood: 11.046K
- Arrows: 30 +1+Bane[Magical Beast]+Darkwood: 4.986K
- Oil of Greater Magic Weapon+5 5 15K
- Dust of Disappearance x5: 17.5K
- Fly 5: 3.75K
- Protection from Evil Potion 5: 0.25K
- Silence 5: 1.5K
- Remove Fear 5: 1.5K
- Resist Energy 30 potion 5: 5.5K
- Good Hope Potion 5: 5.25K
- Cure Light Wounds 25: 1.25K
- Water Breathing Potion 1: 0.75K
- Remove Disease 1: 0.75K
- Remove Curse 1: 0.75K
- Remove Blindness/Deafness 1: 0.75K
- Neutralize Poison 1: 0.75K
- Lesser Restoration 1: 0.3K
Spellcasting Services
- Reduce Person+Permanency: 2.95K
- 5x Magic Mouth @CL10: 0.55K
I avoided effects with a cost of >3K given that these are "not generally available". There are nevertheless some amazing ones including the classic Symbol of X on a Shield.
Total spent is 759.804K and all equipment is a light load.
Spoiler: Statistics
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Armor Class: 30 = 10(base)+6(Dexterity)+6(Armor)+2(Size)+1(Dodge, boots of Speed)+1(Natural Armor)+1(Deflect)+3(Shield)
+ Invisibility
Universal Save modifiers:+7 = +1(Race)+5(Resistance, cloak)+1(Luck, Luckblade)
Fortitude: 22(Good Hope+2): 12(Fighter 20)+3(Constitution)+7(Universal)
Reflex: 26(Evasion, Good Hope+2): 6(Fighter 20)+12(Dexterity)+1(Boots of Speed)+7(Universal)
Will: 18(P from E +Immune Charm&Control Compulsion, Halfling +2 vs Fear , Remove Fear + 4 vs Fear, Good hope+2): 6(Fighter 20)+3(Wisdom) +7(Universal)+2(Feat)
Bow Attack: +47+no dex to AC (Good Hope+2): +20(Fighter 20)+12(Dexterity)+5(Enhance)+2(Competence, Bracers)+2(Feats)+2(Size)+1(Haste, Boots of Speed)+1(Point Blank Shot)+2(Blinking)
Improvised Bow Attack (melee): +32+no dex to AC(Good Hope+2): +20(Fighter 20)+2(Strength)+5(Enhance)+2(Competence, Bracers)+2(Feats)+2(Size)+1(Haste, Boots of Speed)-4(Improvised)+2(Blinking)
Spiked Gauntlet Attack (melee): +36+no dext to AC(Good Hope+2): +20(Fighter 20)+12(Dexterity)+1(Enhance)+2(Size)+1(Haste, Boots of Speed)+2(Blinking)
Bow+Arrow Damage: 42.75 (Good Hope+2): 1.75 (Tiny Arrows)+2(Strength)+5(Enhance+5)+7(Holy)+7(Anarchi c)+4(Feats)+2(Morale)+3.5(Frost)+3.5(Flame)+3.5(Sh ock)+3.5(Merciful)+1(Bracers of Archery, Greater)+1(Point Blank Shot)
Improvised Bow Damage: 32: as bow+arrow except smaller dice, no Anarchic, no point blank shot
Spiked Gauntlet Damage: 4.5: 1.5+2(Strength)+1(enhance)
Attack Routine with Haste & Rapid Shot: +45/+45/+45/+40/+35/+30 Expected damage against AC 36: 252 (including criticals)
Attack Routine with Manyshot: +39 with 4 arrows. Expected damage against AC 36: 168 (Including criticals)
Universal Skill Modifiers: 13: 11(Fighter 20, Cross class)+2(Master work tool, Circumstance)
Universal circumstantial: Good Hope+2
Hide: 70: +13(Universal)+12(Dexterity)+8(size)+15(Competence , armor)+2(Stealthy)+20(Invisibility)
Move Silently 47: +13(Universal)+12(Dexterity)+2(Race)+15(Competence , armor)+2(Stealthy)+3(Skill Focus)
Spot 26: +13(Universal)+3(Wisdom)+5(Competence, Eyes of Eagle)+3(Skill Focus)+2(Alertness)
Sleight of Hand 28: +13(Universal+12(Dexterity)+3(Skill Focus)
Initiative: 16(Good Hope+2): +12(Dexterity)+4(Feat)
Hit Points: 174.5: 114.5(Fighter 20)+60(Constitution)
And here's an updated version of attack/defense taking into account small tweaks.
Spoiler: Detection and Surprise
Show
The halfling sniper has a Hide of 50 which is 70 with invisibility. Invisibility is maintained continuously. The command word is "mumbled" as per sleight of hand rules for spellcasting in the Rules Compendium. According to the rules this is opposed by spot which is effectively impossible since invisibility is on. Even if we overrule this so that Listen opposes the Sleight of Hand check, the chance of the Pit Fiend pinpointing the location is nearly 0.
Move Silently is only 47 although a potion of silence can make it effective infinity for a short time. The Pit Fiend never succeeds with Spot(29) and can only succeeds with Listen (29) .25% of the time.
When the halfling chooses to run (-20 penalty to MS or Hide), Spot never works and Listen sometimes works but rarely pinpoints.
The Sniper periodically checks for illusions with the Gem of Seeing and uses it every round of combat. In the other direction, the Pit Fiend can Hide (25) against the Halfling's Spot(26) only some of the time.
Overall, both contestants might miss each other, but the halfling has a large advantage in tactical information gathering implying the Halfling often wins a surprise round.
The surprise round is not completely decisive although it favors the halfling. The first round on the other hand is usually decisive in favor of the halfling.
Spoiler: First round
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The halfling has an initiative bonus of +16 while the Pit Fiend only has +12 so the halfling wins initiative most of the time. Using the luckblade, the probability of winning initiative is 0.8125.
The halfling does a rapid hasted full attack with the bow using 6 arrows. Since the halfling has and continually uses the ring of blinking, he attacks as if invisible, denying a dexterity bonus to the Pit Fiend leaving it with Armor Class 36. Since nearly all arrows hit, an expected 252 point of nonlethal damage is inflicted. This is followed up with a Coup de Grace the round after.
Overall, the fighter can and likely will 2-round kill the Pit Fiend. For example, if you use the Luckblade to reroll inititiative on a 6- or to reroll a miss, the probability of knocking out the Pit Fiend with a full attack is 0.68.
The last important point to consider is range of engagement.
Spoiler: Range
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The Pit Fiend can theoretically attack from a range of 1120' although that is severely limited by Spot checks.
The halfling can attack from a range of 1100' with on a composite longbow. Again, this is severely limited by Spot checks.
In a worst-case situation, the Pit Fiend may be able to get attacks off, so it's important to have robust defenses.
Spoiler: Pit Fiend Attacks
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Spoiler: Full attack
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If the Pit Fiend full attacks it suffers a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking and the AC is high enough that Power Attack 2 maximizes damage at about 55 + poison & disease which take effects with a probability 0.2 which becomes 0.02 after taking into account the luckblade and the miss chance.
Spoiler: Full Disarm attack
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Each Disarm attack provokes an AOO which Combat Reflexes allows the Fighter to service. Using the bow as an improvised melee weapon plausibly (this requires DM interpretation) has an attack roll of:
+32=20(base)+2(strength)+5(Enhancement)-4(Improvised)+2(size)+2(competence)+2(feat)+1(hast e)+2(invisibility)
which hits against AC 36 and inflicts ~32-15 = 17 nonlethal damage 85% of the time.
Of the remaining 15%, the disarm will miss half the time (blinking) and then the opposed Disarm resistance roll is plausibly:
+46=20(base)+2(strength)+5(enhancement)-4(Improvised)+10(Locking Gauntlet)+2(size)+2(feat)+2(competence)+1(haste)+2 (invisibility)+4(Two-handed weapon)
vs +38=30(base)+12(Tiny to Large)-4(Light Weapon)
implying a 16.5% chance of successful disarm. Multiplying everything together, the odds of a successful disarm attempt is 1.2375%. This becomes lower for nonclaw attack so the odds of a successful disarm on a full attack is about 6% with a free helping of ~102 nonlethal damage to a Pit Fiend in the 94% failure case.
Spoiler: Full Sunder attack
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Each Sunder attempt provokes an AOO as for disarm, but Sunder can continue despite doing damage. A +5 bow has a hardness of 15, so the optimal level of power attack is actually +9 inflicting an expected ~21 damage after taking into account the miss chance. The bow has 51 hp so this is inadequate.
Spoiler: AOO
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The Pit Fiend has no AOOs for bow attacks because blinking attackers attack as if invisible.
Spoiler: Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab
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Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab autofails due to the Ring of Freedom.
Spoiler: Blasphemy
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Blasphemy has no effect since it's caster level 18 vs. 20HD.
Spoiler: Create Undead
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Create Undead is
stated by the SRD as having a casting time of 1 hour, but the Monster Manual plausibly states that it has a casting time of 1 standard action for monsters. Regardless of the rules, the created undead have negligible effect. They generally can't observe the fighter due to very high Move Silently/Hide, if they do observe they have a negligible chance of hitting, and if they do hit the paralysis effects are negated by the Ring of Freedom. Note that the Mummy's Despair(Su) effect causes paralysis so it is also negated by the Ring of Freedom.
Spoiler: (Quickened) Fireball
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The fireball does ~9 expected damage due to Ring of Blinking and a 95% reflex save.
Spoiler: Greater Dispel Magic
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A targeted greater dispel magic on the bow potentially suppresses both the oil on the bow and the bow itself. Since the oil is caster level 20 and there is a 50% miss chance due to the ring of blinking, the probability of suppressing the oil is 0.2. The bow has a much lower caster level, so it is suppressed with probability 0.4.
An area dispel magic will almost certainly dispel one magic mouth but otherwise have no effect.
Spoiler: Mass Hold Monster
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Mass Hold Monster has no effect due to the Ring of Freedom.
Spoiler: Invisibility,Persistent Image
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Invisibility and Persistent Image can both be countered by the Gem of Seeing. Judicious use of the Gem of Seeing is important because we only have 300 rounds/day. Using the Gem when viewing a scene for the first time, whenever anything appears, and during rounds of combat sounds about right. Note that the Gem of Seeing is much more useful than True Seeing since it supports discontinuous use---the only more powerful effect is the always-on True Seeing which some monsters have access to.
Spoiler: Power Word Stun
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Power Word Stun has no effect because the Fighter has more than 150 hit points.
Spoiler: Unholy Aura
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Unholy Aura increases AC by 4, but there is no blinding effect due to the Fighter being True Neutral.
Spoiler: Meteor Swarm
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This is a 1/day ability. Meteor Swarm is double nerfed by Blink since it is both targeted and an area effect. Expected bludgeoning damage is 8*3.5/2=14, and the expected damage from hitting fire is 12*3.5/2=21. For missing fire only 12*3.5/2/2=10.5. Altogether, this is just 45.5 damage.
Spoiler: Wish
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This is a 1/year ability, but it could be used to replicate Antimagic Field or Control Winds, both of which significantly nerf the Fighter. Against Control Winds, the best attack mode of the fighter is an improvised attack with the bow as a melee weapon doing only ~102 nonlethal damage. Against AMF attacks do only ~70 nonlethal damage and many of the Pit Fiends physical attacks become more potent.
Spoiler: Summon Devil
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Summon Devil grants access to Dimensional Anchor (which nerfs Blink if it hits) and Wall of Ice (which provides battlefield control) via
Bone Devil. Summoning an
Erinyes grants access to a weak charm monster (2.5% chance of success), and True Seeing. Other abilities appear unremarkable.
Spoiler: Fear Aura
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The Fear Aura has a .3 probability (=.09 with a luckblade reroll) of affecting as a
fear spell which institutes panic with a save for shaken. The probability of panic is .09 (or .0027 with a luckblade reroll).
Of all these effects, Wish[Antimagic Field] seems the most detrimental since it shuts down attacks enough to buy another round where a Charge/Tail Slap/Improved Grab/Constrict proves nearly irresistable. Amongst at-will abilities, a targeted Greater Dispel Magic on the bow is potent although unlikely to succeed.
An analysis of full attack damage vs. various creatures for the Halfling is below. These are generated by a simulator using 10^6 montecarlo full attacks. They take into account Silver(-1 damage), Bane(+2+2d6 damage, +2 to hit), Alignment & DR (assuming optimal arrow choice), regeneration (damage-regen), True Seeing or See Invisibility (no +2 to hit, no dex bonus to AC lost), critical hit immunity, nonlethal immunity, energy immunity if nonlethal immune, and long term AC bonuses (Mage Armor, Unholy Aura, etc...). They do not take into account flat-footed due to losing initiative, massive damage rules, or a luckblade reroll.
Spoiler: Halfling Fighter Full Attack vs. MMI monsters
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CR |
Monster |
AC(modified) |
HP |
Damage/round |
21 |
Titan |
38 |
370 |
212 |
20 |
Pit Fiend |
36 |
225 |
247 |
20 |
Tarrasque |
30 |
858 |
200 |
20 |
Balor |
41 |
290 |
236 |
20 |
Black Wyrm |
43 |
459 |
224 |
20 |
Ancient Brass |
42 |
387 |
201 |
18 |
Nightcrawler |
37 |
212 |
157 |
16 |
Planetar |
34 |
133 |
218 |
16 |
Nightwalker |
34 |
178 |
161 |
16 |
Greater Stone Golem |
27 |
271 |
149 |
16 |
Horned Devil |
28 |
172 |
261 |
16 |
Archon Hound Hero |
30 |
143 |
227 |
16 |
Old Black |
36 |
287 |
257 |
16 |
Mature Adult Copper |
34 |
264 |
223 |
15 |
Marut |
34 |
112 |
184 |
13 |
Death Slaad |
34 |
142 |
262 |
11 |
Dread Wraith |
17 |
104 |
224 |
11 |
Air elemental |
27 |
204 |
111 |
Responding to some criticisms/questions:
- Low level undead is snipe-at-leisure fodder. Mummies can't even paralyze the Sniper due to Freedom of Movement.
- Sniping does require some way to hide so it does not work in all terrain. It does however often work.
- A commoner 20 is significantly subpar in the sense that expected damage is halved, principally due to a combination of -10 to hit and feat loss. Several other statistics get notably worse.
- Illusions are defeated by True Seeing.
- Beheld's Pit Fiend apparently wastes its action by casting Blasphemy. Everyone makes mistakes, but this is a fatal one.
- Beheld lists several other monsters. Those can generally be dealt with as well, but let's stick to one opponent at a time.
Edit: I'm finding myself losing track of the wrong claims that have been made so I decided to make a FAQ.
Spoiler: Fighter 20 is immune to Pit Fiend Blasphemy
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Beheld claimed that the Pit Fiend's Blasphemy power can daze the fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beheld
...the Pit Fiend can move over to within 40ft of you ... and then Blasphemy you, Dazing you for one round, and repeat infinitely while the Morghs/Mummies fish for crits to kill you.
However,
Blasphemy has no listed effect for a 20 HD creature (the halfling sniper) when cast at caster level 18.
Spoiler: Sniping does not break hide
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Beheld claimed that sniping requires losing
hide.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beheld
While we are talking about sniping rules, you get that no matter what you roll on a hide check they all see you right?
This is wrong, because the 4th sentence of hide says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hide
Its practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
implying that it is possible as long as you hide with a -20 penalty.
Beheld further claimed this was not a rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beheld
Or you know, you could quote the actual rules..
referring to the sniping section. However the sniping section does not say you are revealed when sniping---it just says that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hide
...you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again...
which does not contradict the first rule---it just clarifies that an additional hide check at -20 is required. In particular it never states that you are revealed if the hide check is made. As a general principle nothing changes according to RAW unless it is stated as changing. DEMON
provides further evidence.
Spoiler: Cover from a boulder applies to a half-plane
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Beheld implies that cover from a boulder only applies if a large number of enemies line up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beheld
...if the mummies don't line up in a nice long line, and the Pit Fiend is in the air, then you probably don't have cover with respect to all of them from many locations.
However the
Cover rules state:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cover
If any line from this corner to any corner of the targets square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover...
. Hence a small boulder can provide cover against all opponents on the other side (not just ones in a carefully arranged line) of a boulder since one corner of the square has LOE blocked for all opponents on the other side.
Spoiler: Cover works more than 10 feet away
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Beheld apparently claims that cover and concealment only works within 10' of someone you hide from. After I point out that cover and concealment are common in natural settings he says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beheld
Your contention that there is cover or concealment within 10ft of every enemy ever is silly.
. This is simply an incorrect understanding of the cover rules---they apply at any range.
Spoiler: Yes, it's really all just 760K gp
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Beheld claims that all expendables are 10 times more expensive than what is listed and hence that the build is far over allowed wealth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beheld
Well I mean, for one shots, consumables are supposed to cost 10 times as much.
I have no idea where this is coming from and no rule has been cited---maybe it's some house rule for tournaments that Beheld once played with. Update: Beheld was referring to one-shot rules in the DMG which say x5 rather than x10. I adjusted the consumables so they are all multiples of 5: you can get the number for a one-shot by dividing by 5 and rounding down.
Spoiler: The halfling's move is 20 or more
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Beheld claims the the halfling's movement speed is 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beheld
...my point was your halfling with a 10ft movement speed...
. This is simply false as a halfling has a movement speed of
20 which can be enhanced to 50 with
haste, 60 with a
fly potion, or 90 with both. My best guess is that Beheld took
Hide as a constraint and read the second sentence while missing the third and fourth sentences.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
A commoner 20 is significantly subpar in the sense that expected damage is halved, principally due to a combination of -10 to hit and feat loss. Several other statistics get notably worse.
Does that also take into consideration loss of attacks?
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
Does that also take into consideration loss of attacks?
It wasn't but the last 2 iteratives with a -12 (Fighter->Commoner + feat loss) to hit contribute very little to expected damage anyways (~11) so that doesn't change the conclusion.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lord_khaine
I think it seemed rather clear that the DMG rule is only suposed to apply to summoned creatures with a finite duration.
Because alternatively you could have an infinite horde of Wights that would only be the CR 3 of the initial wight that started the spawning snowball.
It's just so happens there's an item that let's a PC create this army for himself...and I'm sure it isn't the only way for a PC to create an (undead) army.
It should be obvious going in this direction is just silly for both participants, as would be Leadership, or, say, making the Fighter a Kobold and...you know the story.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pleh
Have I got it right so far?
Not entirely, as far as I see it.
How to phrase that? Itīs easier to start with an example: Some time ago, I go into a harmless argument about "best archer builds" and proposed the Paladin, while another countered with Cleric. Comparing builds, it turns out that both builds churned out nearly equal numbers, because the Cleric build relied on copying each and every spell, feat and class feature used by the Paladin build.
So, discussions like this always lead to an interesting triangle with basic class features - WBL - copying/infringing on other classes as the three cornerstones. Now that actually is interesting, as "downward"-infringing seems to be totally acceptable, but "upwards"-infringing is something to be frowned upon, bad WBLmancy and all that. To re-use the prior example, the Cleric is deemed to be intelligently played for being a fine archer and still having access to 9th level spells, while the Paladin, equipped to have better options than the basic chassis will most like be met with the question "why donīt you play a Cleric instead?".
As I see it, Lans offered a very solid archer Fighter build in the OP and answered the "Fighter vs. Pit Fiend" question with it. Every try to use additional "what if?..." conditions or disclaiming that it can do it will get us closer to the "nuclear option" of infringing into full caster territory to get the job done.
Edit: Exploring the axis "Totally self-reliant" <---> "Totally buff-reliant" simply will turn up the result that some things, especially spells, are self-contained, therefore powerful for whoever uses them, from Commoner to Wizard, from Shapechange, Freedom of Movement, Mind Blank to Wish, while others are reliant on the actual casting source, from Scroll to Item to actual caster to gain their real "oomph", from Dimensional Anchor to Baleful Polymorph to a full "Mailman" build.
@Jormengand:
You should actually be quite familiar with animosity making people blind and still step into that trap yourself. Reread the chart by emeraldstreak on page 1 of this discussion, look closely at row/colum1: No UMD? PF Wins? This I answered to, first by agreeing that the assessment of Lansī archer is right and than pointing out the differences in performance, amongst others that a direct port of the build will have roughly 20% more to hit and damage and negating the fear aura and blasphemy completely.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Florian
Not entirely, as far as I see it.
How to phrase that? Itīs easier to start with an example: Some time ago, I go into a harmless argument about "best archer builds" and proposed the Paladin, while another countered with Cleric. Comparing builds, it turns out that both builds churned out nearly equal numbers, because the Cleric build relied on copying each and every spell, feat and class feature used by the Paladin build.
Actually, I see this going the other way.
When the cleric copies the paladin, it says:
Paladin is best archer because they have X.
Cleric is best archer because the have X + 9th level spells.
Very similar to this discussion where we say:
Fighter has WBL.
Wizard has WBL + 9th level spells.
Of course the character that has all the same advantages PLUS more powerful spellcasting is going to be superior to any given task, unless you can find something unique to the noncasting class that is superior to the caster's spells. Good luck with that, btw.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
@pleh
It is not just that. In fact, the core argument about how this *debate* started has been completely tarnished at this point. The original argument was quite simple: That some classes (specifical spellcasters) outdo fighters in martial prowess; a feature where fighters are supposed to excel.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
logic_error
@pleh
It is not just that. In fact, the core argument about how this *debate* started has been completely tarnished at this point. The original argument was quite simple: That some classes (specifical spellcasters) outdo fighters in martial prowess; a feature where fighters are supposed to excel.
Thatīs part of a tangent I wanted to touch on earlier. For that we have to contrast the peak performance of a class with two builds - one that is self-reliant, the other that is buff-reliant and will get the necessary buffs - then compare how resource expenditure sums up. But, alas, still have visitors around, so not until monday evening or so.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
I made one tweak to the halfling sniper build: removing the inherent bonuses to dexterity and adding a robe of eyes. This makes to hit and initiative slightly worse while providing 120' darkvision, see invisible, see ethereal, keep Dexterity bonus when flat footed, can't be flanked and adds another +5 to spot. Altogether this provides even stronger tactical information advantage without significantly altering expected combat outcomes.
I also worked out in detail two other reference points. A Ranger 20 is a clearly better chassis because of a good class skill list, Hide In Plain Sight, and (potentially) Favored Enemy yielding Spot+10 and weapon damage+10. Overall, the ranger does a little bit more damage (280 vs. 245) and has total tactical information dominance.
In contrast, a Commoner 20 takes a huge hit to damage (98 vs. 245) while mostly maintaining a strong advantage in tactical information.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anthrowhale
I made one tweak to the halfling sniper build: removing the inherent bonuses to dexterity and adding a robe of eyes. This makes to hit and initiative slightly worse while providing 120' darkvision, see invisible, see ethereal, keep Dexterity bonus when flat footed, can't be flanked and adds another +5 to spot. Altogether this provides even stronger tactical information advantage without significantly altering expected combat outcomes.
I also worked out in detail two other reference points. A Ranger 20 is a clearly better chassis because of a good class skill list, Hide In Plain Sight, and (potentially) Favored Enemy yielding Spot+10 and weapon damage+10. Overall, the ranger does a little bit more damage (280 vs. 245) and has total tactical information dominance.
In contrast, a Commoner 20 takes a huge hit to damage (98 vs. 245) while mostly maintaining a strong advantage in tactical information.
One thing I noticed...
You subtracted 2 from STR & added 2 to DEX... twice. Once for Size and once for Race.
That's not the way halflings work.
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dagroth
One thing I noticed...
You subtracted 2 from STR & added 2 to DEX... twice. Once for Size and once for Race.
That's not the way halflings work.
He used reduce person
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Re: Archers vs outsiders split from unfairly powerful monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lans
He used reduce person
Right. Permanency Reduce Person is just below the 3K gp cutoff for routine spellcasting services.