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Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
So, my friends and I often debate the results of a single WAAAAGH! landing on various planets in various universes, but we came to a standstill on this one. Your thoughts?
The scenario goes as follows:
Shortly before the events of Wings of Liberty (SC II), a standard-sized WAAAAGH! impacts with the Zerg-held world of Tarsonis. Is the Swarm capable of either slaying or assimilating the WAAAGH! before it can take the planet and begin invading other worlds in the sector?
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
How are the Orks getting to Tarsonis? Kroozers, a space hulk or lots of Roks?
What's the Waaagh's composition? An invasion force involving gargants making planetfall is a significantly bigger threat than lots of roks full of boyz, although easier to root out.
We need more info on the Waaagh as while there is a standard size for one (there's a critical mass number of orks required to trigger it), there's there's no such thing as a standard one.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
How are the Orks getting to Tarsonis? Kroozers, a space hulk or lots of Roks?
What's the Waaagh's composition? An invasion force involving gargants making planetfall is a significantly bigger threat than lots of roks full of boyz, although easier to root out.
We need more info on the Waaagh as while there is a standard size for one (there's a critical mass number of orks required to trigger it), there's there's no such thing as a standard one.
Hrm, interesting. Let us say a load of primarily Boyz (pre-equipped with some looted vehicles) delivered primarily through Roks, and then we can alter the scenario from there after we hash it out some.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
The Zerg have air power no contest with scourges, and devourers. However, against any fortified ground position or position backed with vehicles, there's not a lot the organic targets can do against bolters. The standard ammunition literally is designed to destroy the enemy they're facing.
The only thing I have to say on that, is that well, none of their fire power really matters aside from that.
Squiggoths are bigger, nastier, and usually gun laden ultralisks. Bolters are many times more powerful than standard terran weaponry that shreds through zerglings, and the looted vehicle firepower that they bring to bear is easily more than enough to shred through whatever siege tanks can bring to bear.
Hydralisks don't do enough damage to the Ork type targets at range, and while Roach's DO possess the firepower they lack range, being limited to a distance of but a few meters.
The only question is if the Ork line up here is Bad Moonz or some other more vehicle reliant WAAAAAGH! because they wouldn't be able to keep up a protracted conflict without Gargantz and Squiggoths.
It also depends on the Warboss leading it, as it can range from "Mentally Retarded" to "Brutal Kunning."
All this said, Starcraft is still marginally better written than any Ork centric 40k fiction I've ever read. The Zerg are just more interesting opponents.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Yeah. The problem with the 40k universe is if you can survive a week, then you're really badass and invincible in practically every other universe. The Orks would probably have the advantage due to them being part fungus and easily becomes an investation, even for the zerg.
One thing I can say though, the Orks will still love having the fight regardless of who wins.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Probably depends on the density of the swarm, as well. Tarsonis was infested, but it was never a core hive world like Char. Zerg are best compared to a weaker, paler strain of Tyranids, so if the Orks didn't bring enough ammo with them (they're not going to find any reloads on a Tarsonis, and WAAAAUGH power can't actually spawn ammo out of thin air because of how it works), they'll probably get overrun in the end. Because Zerg have the air, and thus the ability to bombard with either Guardian spores or Broodlings beyond the ranges the Orks will be able to (accurately) retaliate, I gotta give this to the native defenders in the end*.
Creep will grow back over the area they had landed in, and for the next few hundred years, every Zerg hatched on Tarsonis will be an odd shade of green.
*That doesn't mean the Orks lose though, remember. If they win, they win. If they're dead, it doesn't count. If they run away, they can always come back and try again.:smallsmile:
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
What about Lurkers? Can Orks even see them?
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
...let's not start the Starcraft Cloaking/Hidden Units debate all over again.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Was that the one between ...Terrans and Star Wars Universe?
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Yeah, only a few weeks ago, though there it was Starcraft Cloaking vs. Star Wars Cloak Detection. It was a mess.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Yeah, only a few weeks ago, though there it was Starcraft Cloaking vs. Star Wars Cloak Detection. It was a mess.
But Jedi at least make sense in being able to detect cloaked units.
Not sure if the Empire could... But I don't feel like debating issue.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Oh I remember, I tend to lurk the vs. 40k threads and that one was pretty interesting all things considered.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Lurkers were a phased out strain well before Wings of Liberty though.
And well, the only reason I give Zerg the air is their ability to mass. Fighta Bombas are infinitely more destructive than a Mutalisk, but with their anti air suicide units, devourers, mutalisks, and then you have Hydras, and a multitude of other specific anti air measures it really just goes to who can fill the skies the thickest.
And the Zerg win that in spades.
It's the ground battle they lose.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
You may be giving the Orks too much credit in that ground battle. You're assuming Orks have bolters as standard, which is far from universal. The 'default' Ork weapon, as far as they have one ("Slugga/Shoota" can describe pretty much any gun), is much more likely to be a traditional slugthrower, even if it is firing slugs the size of walnuts. Compared to both Space Marine bolters and Terran Marine hypersonic gauss rifles, the Orks are coming off decidedly on the short end of the stick in terms of raw firepower - which is fitting, the Orks use volume to make up for things like accuracy or penetration.
Squiggoths are more like Ultralisks with guns and worse melee - they can stomp all over stuff, but the 'Lisks were bred for being living siege rams, one charging with its head down is going to plow right through anything an Ork force is going to be able to block it with, and an Ultralisk in melee is a scary, scary thing. They might have brought some looted vehicles with them, but looted tanks are notoriously unreliable, and they're unlikely to have them in any overwhelming number, so it's merely an advantage rather than a game-breaker. Zerg unquestionably lose the range advantage, but that might not be very relevant with Ork 'accuracy' and their innate preference to engage as close to point-blank melee as they can anyways.
If it's a Flash Gitz or Bad Moons-heavy WAAAUGH, I'd give the Orks a serious fighting chance. A mixed or un-affiliated one, though, is more likely to end up playing into the Zerg's claws by voluntarily closing to melee where their ranged disadvantage is mutually negated.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
...let's not start the Starcraft Cloaking/Hidden Units debate all over again.
This is a different thing though. It isnt a tech based stealth, its them hiding underground. Can the orks detect stuff hiding in the ground? Or would they have to blow up the earth in the general vicinity of where the lurker seems to be attacking them? Honestly, I wouldnt even try to claim that it requires anything all that special to detect the hidden zerg, they just burrow into the ground, they arent blocking out infrared or radiowaves or whatever technobabble electronic stealth the terrans and protoss use.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
You may be giving the Orks too much credit in that ground battle. You're assuming Orks have bolters as standard, which is far from universal. The 'default' Ork weapon, as far as they have one ("Slugga/Shoota" can describe pretty much any gun), is much more likely to be a traditional slugthrower, even if it is firing slugs the size of walnuts. Compared to both Space Marine bolters and Terran Marine hypersonic gauss rifles, the Orks are coming off decidedly on the short end of the stick in terms of raw firepower - which is fitting, the Orks use volume to make up for things like accuracy or penetration.
Squiggoths are more like Ultralisks with guns and worse melee - they can stomp all over stuff, but the 'Lisks were bred for being living siege rams, one charging with its head down is going to plow right through anything an Ork force is going to be able to block it with, and an Ultralisk in melee is a scary, scary thing. They might have brought some looted vehicles with them, but looted tanks are notoriously unreliable, and they're unlikely to have them in any overwhelming number, so it's merely an advantage rather than a game-breaker. Zerg unquestionably lose the range advantage, but that might not be very relevant with Ork 'accuracy' and their innate preference to engage as close to point-blank melee as they can anyways.
If it's a Flash Gitz or Bad Moons-heavy WAAAUGH, I'd give the Orks a serious fighting chance. A mixed or un-affiliated one, though, is more likely to end up playing into the Zerg's claws by voluntarily closing to melee where their ranged disadvantage is mutually negated.
I've read the Starcraft Books.
In one of the novels, a team of Zealots (4) takes down an ultralisk due to it's lack of manueverability, and weapons aside from it's tusks, and they are a solely melee unit with no method of ranged attack.
If it gets going at ramming speed, and isn't stopped by the concussive firepower that the orks can throw out? Sure, but with over penetration surely being in the orks favor + explosive rounds + more advanced flame thrower technology (if only given the radioactive nature of the promethium used as standard in ork flamer fuel.) I'd hazard that they can melt enemies just as efficiently as Terrans do with having naturally more durable soldiers, and the addition of Mekboyz.
Also, the Ork firepower generally delivers a round that explodes or have increased armor penetration to compensate according to the Ork Codex entry on Shootahs, so they can be assumed to be around the same usefulness as a bolter around half the time.
The ultralisks hide though doesn't mean a lot when explosive payloads are delivered inside it, and 40k firepower generally lines up in documented feats with what the Gauss Rifle has been able to do.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
I can easily see 4 Zealots taking out an Ultralisk, but they're basically Eldar On Steroids anyways, and 'Lisks aren't meant to fight individual agile enemies that way, they're ramming engines with giant scythe-tusks for carving up massed opponents - Orks are probably the best 40K opponent for Ultralisks in that regard aside from Tyranids, the Zerg opposite number (and Carnifexes would probably beat them).
If we use game/codex stats as a (very rough) comparison, Shoota rounds - on average - have the same destructive strength as a bolter round with a slightly lesser ability to penetrate armor, so maybe 1/3 of shootas would be bolter-quality firepower. You did point out that Ultralisks and Squiggoths are built on roughly the same scale, and it takes a heck of a lot of bolter/shoota rounds to bring down a Squiggoth. Then again, they're big enough that it'll be easy even for Orks to hit, so possibly a wash.
I still think that the Orks will end up at a disadvantage because of their propensity and preference to settle things 'The Orky Way' - in melee. Their guns are better, but not enough better that they can give up their numerical weight, and it's usually un-Orky to build fortifications and hide behind them. Eventually, burrowed Baneling bombs will teach them to be cautious whenever they venture outside whatever earthworks they've built, but whether that happens before or after they've committed to a massive and possibly decisive brawl is uncertain.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Howling Banshee's are a BIT better than Bog Standard Zealots (Not that one can call a Zealot bog standard.), if only because power weapons can soul rape in an Eldar's hand.
However, you're right, that's why I said the warboss would be the deciding factor.
Someone like Ghaz'gkull would realize that they need to build up a huge squiggoth, stompahz, and gargant force to take a zerg held world, and that anti air defenses would be chief in getting those defenses set up.
However, Zerg are one thing. Squishy, whereas Orks have an almost retarded amount of durability, having no actual anatomy to speak of.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Is it the opinion of the community that the conflict would last long enough for the Swarm to begin assimilating Ork strains, and what effect do we feel this would have? Zerg assimilation is quite the bit different from tyranids (who don't actually assimilate), Borg (who would probably be psychically eaten by the Orks) or the Flood (you're kidding, right?) insofar as the Swarm incorporates whatever's beneficial into the Swarm as a whole and then phases out things it doesn't want - possibly including the "programmed" behaviors that make Orks so difficult to control psionically.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Nah - even Tyranids take years/decades/centuries to incorporate entirely new strains into their metageonome, and based on what I remember from the Starcraft 1 manual, the Zerg work on a similarly long-term scale. Besides, "Swarm incorporates whatever's beneficial into the Swarm as a whole and then phases out things it doesn't want " is pretty much a word-for-word description of how the Tyranids incorporate beneficial genetic material into their swarms.
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However, Zerg are one thing. Squishy, whereas Orks have an almost retarded amount of durability, having no actual anatomy to speak of.
Zerg aren't that squishy - they do have armor plates and stuff, though they are more squishy than Orks - not that Orks don't have anatomy, they're just massively redundant and highly resilient. They still have arms and legs and stuff, just that cutting off an Ork's arm is good reason for him to beat you to death with his own severed limb, and decapitating an Ork is fatal unless a Doc gets to him quick enough to sew it back on to his body. They've got digestive tracts and internal organs (sometimes, this is another thing that seems to vary widely by edition), but again, losing them or suffering gut wounds isn't incapacitating like it is for a human.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
To be fair, chances are they only have intestines so that when they are fighting to decide who is the bigger and orkier, the winner can rip them out of the loser.
As for incorporating Ork traits, that strikes me as not a guaranteed thing. They are after all pretty significantly different to anything else the Zerg have encountered. It could result in tougher Zerg, is unlikely to result in smarter Zerg, or it could end up creating a new ravening hoarde of buglike Orks who simply end up carrying on doing things exactly as Orks always do, but with more gribblyness.
In general terms, It's not like Orks haven't fought Tyranids before. I'm sure I heard about some thing where a Tyranid fleet was directed into the path of an Ork Waaagh and the result of the battle was something like; there is no result yet, they're still going.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
We already know how this turns out because the Zerg are a direct ripoff of the Tyranids, who the Orks already fight. :smalltongue: Namely, they have an extremely drawn-out stalemate in which the Orks get bigger because they're fighting all the time and the Tyranids Zerg make bigger and nastier warbeasts to deal with it and so on and so forth.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Tiki Snakes
To be fair, chances are they only have intestines so that when they are fighting to decide who is the bigger and orkier, the winner can rip them out of the loser.
As for incorporating Ork traits, that strikes me as not a guaranteed thing. They are after all pretty significantly different to anything else the Zerg have encountered. It could result in tougher Zerg, is unlikely to result in smarter Zerg, or it could end up creating a new ravening hoarde of buglike Orks who simply end up carrying on doing things exactly as Orks always do, but with more gribblyness.
In general terms, It's not like Orks haven't fought Tyranids before. I'm sure I heard about some thing where a Tyranid fleet was directed into the path of an Ork Waaagh and the result of the battle was something like; there is no result yet, they're still going.
Wasn't that when the Blood Ravens diverted a Tyrannid fleet into one of the Ork empires, and the result is warbosses the size of mechs or some such? The Orks on the planet being invaded cannot reproduce because their spores are being eaten by Tyrannid cells, but Orks from surronding planets come join "da gud fight" on a daily basis.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Zerg are best compared to a weaker, paler strain of Tyranids, so if the Orks didn't bring enough ammo with them (they're not going to find any reloads on a Tarsonis, and WAAAAUGH power can't actually spawn ammo out of thin air because of how it works), they'll probably get overrun in the end.
If da boyz didn't pack enuff bullets for dere shootas dis is gonna be a disappointinly quiet fight...
Remember that orky shooting is about 90% enthusiasm, 10% competence, and is really only intended to make an impressive amount of noise before gettin down to some real fightin wiv yer choppa.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
GloatingSwine
If da boyz didn't pack enuff bullets for dere shootas dis is gonna be a disappointinly quiet fight...
Remember that orky shooting is about 90% enthusiasm, 10% competence, and is really only intended to make an impressive amount of noise before gettin down to some real fightin wiv yer choppa.
Really depends on the Orks that are in use here.
There ARE factions of Orks that forgo ranged weaponry entirely, there is a reason they aren't as big as Ghaz'gkull or the Ork empire that focuses solely on burning things, or the Bad Moonz who focus exclusively on vehicle combat.
If an all melee WAAAAAGH! comes in with a Warboss who lacks the Brutal Kunnin to properly handle this drops in?
Assimilation.
If a dedicated vehicle WAAAAAAGH! comes in with plenty of mech boyz to loot old terran equipment.
Victory.
People are treating this like it's on Char, but a crucial thing about Tarsonis is that it used to be a Terran held world, and the Terrans have come back to fight on it numerous times.
I'd imagine there are even a few battle cruisers left to be lootable given the zerg's policy of leaving wreckage around and not giving a flip about machines.
/Looted Battlecruisers ohgodwhy.
I can only imagine looted Valkyries, probably end up being called Deff Screamerz or something because of the sound of all those missiles firing at once.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
I seem to remember an SC novel - wanna say Shadow of the Xel'Naga - that featured the creation of a new combat-ready strain within a single Brood in less than a month's time. Can anyone confirm if this is canon?
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
I would probably give it to the Orks. A Waaagh! grows in size as it continues, which means that the Zerg would have to wrap it up immediately or they would be find themselves fighting an ever growing conflict.
And the Zerg are in a particularly bad place, since their biggest advantage is large numbers of melee units. This also happens to be the biggest advantage of the Orks, which even if they have parity makes it unlikely the Zerg will easily dislodge the Orks. As the Orks continue to gain in size and numbers the Zerg would fall back, which would increase the power of the Waaagh! until it became a green screaming tidal wave.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
The only way I see this shaking down is the Zerg incorporating the Orks into the Swarm.
Why you ask? Because a lot of Orks are going to die, are going to be slaughtered and devoured every which way and how, that the Zerg has at their disposal, given the propensity for Orks to readily go into any sort of combat guns blazing at point blank range and giving up their greatest tactical advantage over the forces of the Zerg at large. Not to say that the Orks aren't devoid of tactics entirely, just their standard 'Get em lads' is not going to be particularly effective since they're facing an enemy that can reproduce as fast, if not faster than them and does not have to rely on salvaging equipment for weapons and armor (they just grow it).
Assuming no particularly crafty and potent Warboss makes his fame by leading this particular Waagh! to success over the force of the Queen of Blades, I'm thinking that the Orks will more or less be 'handled' by the Zerg. Perhaps not eliminated or truly wiped out, but that their numbers will be kept manageable.
Now, all that said, I would actually call having the Ork DNA incorporated into the Swarm, a win for the Orks! Again, you ask why, and that is because, that's going to potentially make the Zerg considerably more Ork-like . . .
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
The problem with arguing that the Zerg will simply eat the Orks is it implies frequent successes before the feeding can occur. Unless the Zerg are taking little bites as they go, they are going to need fair amounts of undisturbed time to feed. This implies that they drive back the Orks before feeding, or destroy them entirely. If the Orks win the Zerg can't get to the bodies, because they are behind the frontline (and probably fed to the Orks' Squiggogs).
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Tvtyrant
I would probably give it to the Orks. A Waaagh! grows in size as it continues, which means that the Zerg would have to wrap it up immediately or they would be find themselves fighting an ever growing conflict.
And the Zerg are in a particularly bad place, since their biggest advantage is large numbers of melee units. This also happens to be the biggest advantage of the Orks, which even if they have parity makes it unlikely the Zerg will easily dislodge the Orks. As the Orks continue to gain in size and numbers the Zerg would fall back, which would increase the power of the Waaagh! until it became a green screaming tidal wave.
Waaaughs don't grow spontaneously, though - their 'growth' is by attracting more warbands and smaller Waaaughs are reinforcements. Individual Orks might become bigger and stronger in response to the fight, but their numbers won't multiple appreciably without additional forces. The Ork life cycle is actually rather slow in regards to growing new orks from spores, and likely much slower than the time it takes to gestate a Zerg larvae into a new combat organism. If the two sides are calling in outside reinforcements in that manner, the Orks are going to get flattened under the weight of the entire Swarm, and if it's limited to on-planet attrition, the Zerg can replace their casualties faster than the Orks can.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
Waaaughs don't grow spontaneously, though - their 'growth' is by attracting more warbands and smaller Waaaughs are reinforcements. Individual Orks might become bigger and stronger in response to the fight, but their numbers won't multiple appreciably without additional forces. The Ork life cycle is actually rather slow in regards to growing new orks from spores, and likely much slower than the time it takes to gestate a Zerg larvae into a new combat organism. If the two sides are calling in outside reinforcements in that manner, the Orks are going to get flattened under the weight of the entire Swarm, and if it's limited to on-planet attrition, the Zerg can replace their casualties faster than the Orks can.
Well it depends on whether you go by fluff, or in game.
By both in game mechanics, Orks and Zerg grow within seconds, the difference being that in the game mechanics Orks spawn in entire squads already ready to go.
If we go by fluff, both takes weeks to months to grow at any appreciable rate with orkish true regeneration coming in at the yearly period.
Zerg, from gestating their new brood, and Orks from drawing in more Orks from the WAAAAAAAAGH! and their spore replenishment.
In raw man of the line durability? I gotta give it to the Orks, a lack of definable anatomy, extreme endurance, and physical strength exceeding that of Terran Marines (Just going by the higher end lifting and resisting feats documented in fluff. An armored Terran Marine's lifting capacity caps out of the tonnage range, whereas a Space Marine can physically lift a Lemann Russ armored given proper leverage, and the equivalency of Orks to Space Marines in most physical attributes.)
However, they lack all the decidedly "killy bits" as default to compare to anything more than a Zergling naked.
I'd hazard that an Ork equipped with a shootah could easily compare to a Stim'd marine though, with the slightly lower rate of fire being compensated for in raw explosive force, and a big shootah going even further than that.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
For firepower, sure, but the difference in relative accuracy is going to go heavily against the Ork in that comparison - his bullet weight and rate of fire might equal the stimmed Marine, but in terms of rounds-on-target he's going to be far behind, so overall offensive effectiveness will take a hit.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
For firepower, sure, but the difference in relative accuracy is going to go heavily against the Ork in that comparison - his bullet weight and rate of fire might equal the stimmed Marine, but in terms of rounds-on-target he's going to be far behind, so overall offensive effectiveness will take a hit.
Well, that and the problem with hyper sonic spikes is that they are designed for penetration, in most cinematics they simply go THROUGH the zerg, causing no lasting internal damage to creatures with minor regeneration.
A round that nests itself inside the creature and then explodes only needs 1 hit to kill, and that's what the difference would be between a marine and an ork.
That, and the ork isn't made out of paper.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
If the two sides are calling in outside reinforcements in that manner, the Orks are going to get flattened under the weight of the entire Swarm, and if it's limited to on-planet attrition, the Zerg can replace their casualties faster than the Orks can.
Can they? Where are they getting the biomass to do so? The biggest argument I have seen so far is that they will eat their dead/the Ork dead, but that just means that the Orks need to continuously advance. As long as the Orks don't allow the Zerg time to feed, they are locked into a 0 sum game. In such a scenario the Orks would win because they rapidly get stronger as they fight, and would have the bodies of their brethren to eat (they are made of the exact same substance as their food). The opposite is true of course, all the Zerg need to do is win battles to recover. So the wars outcome is based around whoever wins the majority of the early battles, and I would give that to the Orks.
Orks are by and large tougher than Zerg and they can recover from any wound (as long as they win the battle and can get themselves stitched back together). They have mechs which can be repaired via repainting them, and magic guns that don't need real ammo (the fluff says that many Ork bolters are nothing more than a box of metal with nails inside, which means you don't need complex manufacturing to reload them).
Invading groups almost always have the upper hand in the beginning due to concentration of force, which means that the Orks have the advantage in the pivotal early battles. If they win the early engagements they have removed the biomass that drives the Zerg, strengthened the psychic energies of their Waaagh!, and gained in physical size and strength.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
The Zerg, to my knowledge, do not eat. They convert raw materials directly into the creep that sustains them.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Tvtyrant
Orks are by and large tougher than Zerg and they can recover from any wound (as long as they win the battle and can get themselves stitched back together). They have mechs which can be repaired via repainting them, and magic guns that don't need real ammo (the fluff says that many Ork bolters are nothing more than a box of metal with nails inside, which means you don't need complex manufacturing to reload them).
Though those bolters would shoot nails, not bolt shells, unless the latest version of the Orks changed how WAAAUGH power acts radically. As I always understood it, Orks believing something works or is true can become so by collective psychic power if enough Orks believe this is true, but that has its limitations. For example, guns need bullets, and what you put into the gun is what comes out when you shoot it - every Ork knows these simple things. One Ork might think that he can load nails and shoot explosive bullets, but his reality is going to lose against the reality of the rest of his species. WAAAAUGH power is one of those things that tends to be exaggerated beyond what canon actually depicts it as; Ork machinery does work, it's just extremely crude and tends to explode/malfunction/backfire for any non-Ork by simple virtue of the Ork's faith that it will work properly.
An Ork's gun won't jam, though, because Orks don't consider the possibility that'll happen, and their bullets will hit faster and harder than they should, or explode disproportionately to their payload, again because that's what Orks believe bullets will do. A particularly massive WAAAAUGH might get shootas that fire more bullets than they're actually loaded with, as long as they are being reloaded - the Ork knows his gun needs bullets and that he does have to put more in every so often, but can't be bothered to count how many he's actually dumping into the ammo hopper.
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Originally Posted by
Kitten Champion
The Zerg, to my knowledge, do not eat. They covert raw materials directly into the creep that sustains them.
This, too. The Zerg don't need to actually win the battle, they just need to spread Creep out over the battlefield after they win or lose. Unless the Orks happen to have a brainstorm and use flamers to beat back the Creep (and roast their own dead in the process), anything left on the field will get re-absorbed and re-purposed.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
This, too. The Zerg don't need to actually win the battle, they just need to spread Creep out over the battlefield after they win or lose. Unless the Orks happen to have a brainstorm and use flamers to beat back the Creep (and roast their own dead in the process), anything left on the field will get re-absorbed and re-purposed.
Creep requires structures to promulgate it though, and so the zerg would need to go around the lines or manage to have the orks completely ignore their structures.
I guess really it depends upon the savviness of whatever is controlling the zerg on Tarsonis.
I guess this is the era before brood mothers but after Zerg Queens started getting more autonomy/control? :smallconfused:
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Coidzor
Creep requires structures to promulgate it though, and so the zerg would need to go around the lines or manage to have the orks completely ignore their structures.
I guess really it depends upon the savviness of whatever is controlling the zerg on Tarsonis.
I guess this is the era before brood mothers but after Zerg Queens started getting more autonomy/control? :smallconfused:
Creep tumors?:smallconfused: I guess their 'stealth' might be just being big blobs of creep and hard to distinguish from all the rest of the creep around them...
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Coidzor
Creep requires structures to promulgate it though, and so the zerg would need to go around the lines or manage to have the orks completely ignore their structures.
I guess really it depends upon the savviness of whatever is controlling the zerg on Tarsonis.
I guess this is the era before brood mothers but after Zerg Queens started getting more autonomy/control? :smallconfused:
Well, there are ways around that. Encircle and build creep colonies as far away as they can, while still being close enough to encroach on ork territory. Then start closing in. Creep spreads pretty far away from the source over time. Keep evolving the colonies into sunken and spore and building more another step or two closer and you have a nice set of self defending bunkers that can kill orks and if they die close enough, absorb them into the creep. If they do it fast enough, the zerg would have a solid grouping of colonies before the creep even starts reaching ork turf and warning them. By then it would be too late to stop it short of a full out assault that would end in tons of deaths, on the creep.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
I still think the creep strategy relies overly on static lines of battle, but I concede that the Orks are probably not as likely to win as I believe. It's too bad there is no way to test it, but such is life.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Creep turtling just feels wrong though. :smalleek:
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Overlords can spew creep underneath them. It's how you place creep/spore colonies or nydus canals in tactically useful areas without building a whole Hatchery.
I suppose, this versus depends on how competent the Orks are in tactical thinking.
fortifications can be bypassed using burrowed units like Roaches, Overlord drops, and Nydus Canals. Infestors can take out Squiggoths using a Neural Parasites. Poor aim does not bode well when fighting self-destructive Banelings or small and cheetah-like Zerglings.
You can take out a substantially larger Zerg force with adequate fortifications which are properly situated and protected with a few defenders. That is, if you know what to look for, and aren't expecting to repopulate your army faster than them.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Traab
Well, there are ways around that. Encircle and build creep colonies as far away as they can, while still being close enough to encroach on ork territory. Then start closing in. Creep spreads pretty far away from the source over time. Keep evolving the colonies into sunken and spore and building more another step or two closer and you have a nice set of self defending bunkers that can kill orks and if they die close enough, absorb them into the creep. If they do it fast enough, the zerg would have a solid grouping of colonies before the creep even starts reaching ork turf and warning them. By then it would be too late to stop it short of a full out assault that would end in tons of deaths, on the creep.
Sunken and Spore colonies no longer spread creep.
They are now Spine, and Spore colonies and have been instead been bred to serve as mobile defense emplacements.
Also, Ork Boyz squads totally come with burnahs ANYTIME they face nid squads, or any massed faction.
I'd hazard burnahs, and shootahs would be the standard issue for any savvy warboss.
As for defenses, part of the ork mentality revolves around "Boss Poles" so I'd imagine they'd follow standard doctrine of setting up an orky camp the moment they cleared their landing zone.
There's still the issue of Looted siege tanks, valkyries, and battle cruisers that haven't been addressed. Valkyries were to the point in Brood War were even like, 7 of them gave you the air against squads of 20-30 mutalisks.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Yeah, given that burny is right up there with shooty and choppy on the list of things orks love, they'd definitely have a fighting chance at this.
I mean, I can see a Power-Klaw'd nob ripping up an Ultralisk pretty easily, since Power Klaws are essentially lightsaber hands. Lightsaber hands on huge, incredibly strong melee specialists, backed up by flamethrowers and Flash Gitz seems like a winning combination; although admittedly I'm not sure how many Boyz can cram into a Rok, so the Zerg might have it just on the numbers game.
I feel like the "Zerg scourge means always air superiority" is overstated, since that's never true in the games, even when you're invading char.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
shadow_archmagi
Yeah, given that burny is right up there with shooty and choppy on the list of things orks love, they'd definitely have a fighting chance at this.
I mean, I can see a Power-Klaw'd nob ripping up an Ultralisk pretty easily, since Power Klaws are essentially lightsaber hands. Lightsaber hands on huge, incredibly strong melee specialists, backed up by flamethrowers and Flash Gitz seems like a winning combination; although admittedly I'm not sure how many Boyz can cram into a Rok, so the Zerg might have it just on the numbers game.
I feel like the "Zerg scourge means always air superiority" is overstated, since that's never true in the games, even when you're invading char.
Well, it's more combined with Devourers, and this is entirely contingent on this being a Rok only invasion.
No Kroozers or it's a sweep. A lance fire sweep as hellfire rains down from space in quantities starcraft has never seen or thought of.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Well, people don't seem to be taking some stuff into account, namely.
Orks don't run out of bullets. They have a group unconscious. If they need bullets for shootey, more and more orks start making bullets instead of doing other orky things (raising squigs, fighting, fighting, repairing/making vehicles) etc. It's not just mekboys, mekboys are just necessary for the larger/largest vehicles like gargants (and then, you only need like one mekboy, it's just you need a grand mekboy or 4 out of 5 gargants explode when first powered up - orks don't care, though).
The Zerg are used to fighting sane opponents. One of the biggest advantages of the zerg is their coordination and control, they don't fight unless they can human wave the enemy to death, and they are not used to fighting something as well or better coordinated them. Ork battle strategies are not strategy as we know it, they have no leaders, poor communication, poor everything, but they always show up in the right place at exactly the right time. That is because they are psychic, and have a group unconscious that guides them to the right place in nearly any battle, and they are too dumb to ignore what their unconscious urges send them towards.
Orks don't just get bigger when they fight, they make more orks. Ork reproduction is directly linked to conflict. Also, ork spores survive tyranid biomass extraction (although they can't grow without biomass) and imperium virus bombing - i'm guessing zerg creep wouldn't faze them unduly. There is a reason when faced with orks every foe of the orks works to wipe them out as fast as possible - when you don't, you end up with more orks than when you started with, and they're bigger, and their tech works better (not only do the mekboyz build bigger stronger stuff to fight bigger stronger opponents, their psychic powers (that power their tech) amp up from conflict). The Zerg tend towards slow destruction of enemies on the ground, and to prefer to build up than to throw everything into an attack.
The less orks there are, the more kunning they get. This is again why you don't want to kill them slowly.
Orks in melee combat get stronger and faster and more killey the longer the combat goes on. Even tyranids tend to lose, according to fluff, if they let the orks get their choppas wet. They are literally 'unstoppable once they get going', which is why everyone goes out of their way to not let them get going. And that's not in terms of just numbers, it's in terms of individual combat potential.
Orks live everywhere. Everywhere. Sure, some land on the zerg planet and the zerg kill them all fast because they are apparently awesome and know all about orks, but there are now orks in their asteroid belt, and orks on all the other planets in the system, and orks in huge roks circling the sun and some other orks on their way to other systems, and some orks in functioning kroozers warping around the place on tradin mishuns or explorin' or whatever else.
If you're going to look at a grand conflict like this, you have to look at the fluff of the races and not just their on battlefield stats. What generally makes orks stop fighting is when every ork dies which whole races have specialized UNITS for doing (the Codex Astartes apparently has a whole section on how to fight orks without just making more orks), or when they actually bugger off and leave because the enemy 'aren't fightin' fun like'. Literally, if a conflict is good or fun, orks will just keep popping out of the ground and anywhere else nearby to keep the fun coming.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Fan
Sunken and Spore colonies no longer spread creep.
They are now Spine, and Spore colonies and have been instead been bred to serve as mobile defense emplacements.
Also, Ork Boyz squads totally come with burnahs ANYTIME they face nid squads, or any massed faction.
I'd hazard burnahs, and shootahs would be the standard issue for any savvy warboss.
As for defenses, part of the ork mentality revolves around "Boss Poles" so I'd imagine they'd follow standard doctrine of setting up an orky camp the moment they cleared their landing zone.
There's still the issue of Looted siege tanks, valkyries, and battle cruisers that haven't been addressed. Valkyries were to the point in Brood War were even like, 7 of them gave you the air against squads of 20-30 mutalisks.
Ah ok, so this is starcraft 2 era zerg? Its still a viable tactic, and in a way, even more so, as those little creep tumors or whatever they are called, can be hidden and placed rapidly with the right setup. A creep colony from starcraft 1 is readily visible, these things are tiny little blisters, relativly speaking. It isnt a perfect unbeatable strategy, but then, very few things in a decent versus battle are. But it would make for a viable attempt at restricting ork resources while strengthening the zergs.
Even if it only works for a single attack or two, it would still put the zerg in an advantage, as the orks lose the remains of their boyz on the creep, while the swarm gains them. As an example, say the zerg setup a fast creep build then attack. They start out 50/50 evenly matched with the orks, but after the battle they manage to hit 60/40. They now have a numerical advantage that can be pressed. In fact, that could be a very smart tactic that can be reused in different ways. An ork attack is coming in? Drop a tumor behind the zerg lines and let the creep grow during the battle. If the zerg win, they absorb the remains. If they lose, they didnt really lose anything extra. By holding the battle outside of secure zerg turf, they dont risk their hive in the skirmish, as whatever gets through them still has to deal with the main hive defenses and will have been weakened in the first assault.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Any forces held back for base defense aren't engaging in the main skirmish though, and that's a significant disadvantage.
Whereas the Orks are very unlikely to care if their base gets smashed up, cause they'll just have the gretchins hammer it back together when they get back.
Though again, Looted Valkryies might just give the Orks the air advantage. Valkyries took down even waves of scourge due to their tendencies to bunch up, same with devourers and mutalisks.
They were the penultimate anti air unit, and looted ones always bring more fire power to the game.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Fan
Any forces held back for base defense aren't engaging in the main skirmish though, and that's a significant disadvantage.
Whereas the Orks are very unlikely to care if their base gets smashed up, cause they'll just have the gretchins hammer it back together when they get back.
Though again, Looted Valkryies might just give the Orks the air advantage. Valkyries took down even waves of scourge due to their tendencies to bunch up, same with devourers and mutalisks.
They were the penultimate anti air unit, and looted ones always bring more fire power to the game.
Where would they get valkeries from? I thought they would have moistly their own universes looted tech. As for rebuilding, if the orks base gets overrun with creep, they may not have alot left to rebuild with. And a zerg strategy of base defense isnt totally bonkers, as the zerg main hive area, when done right, can produce armies insanely fast. (4 hatchery/hive structures producing troops at once for example) A few units held back, the solid line of the zerg turrets, and the hatching eggs in the hives themselves means most of the zerg can leave, without leaving the hive even close to defenseless.
Someone mentioned once about the zerg not really having air superiority in the game, even when char is being invaded. The reason for that is simple, because the zerg forces had to be arranged in a beatable way. The maps were setup with solid anti air, OR anti ground defenses, meaning there was always a hole to exploit. Even when they were combined, it was always light enough to muscle through in the end. Watch the cinematic of the start to the invasion of char. The entire battlefleet was nearly wiped out by the zerg anti air. The ground troops were scattered and slaughtered. Only our resident hero raynor managed to keep the entire debacle from turning into a total loss. Without him, its likely every human on char would have been slaughtered.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Traab
Where would they get valkeries from? I thought they would have moistly their own universes looted tech. As for rebuilding, if the orks base gets overrun with creep, they may not have alot left to rebuild with. And a zerg strategy of base defense isnt totally bonkers, as the zerg main hive area, when done right, can produce armies insanely fast. (4 hatchery/hive structures producing troops at once for example) A few units held back, the solid line of the zerg turrets, and the hatching eggs in the hives themselves means most of the zerg can leave, without leaving the hive even close to defenseless.
Someone mentioned once about the zerg not really having air superiority in the game, even when char is being invaded. The reason for that is simple, because the zerg forces had to be arranged in a beatable way. The maps were setup with solid anti air, OR anti ground defenses, meaning there was always a hole to exploit. Even when they were combined, it was always light enough to muscle through in the end. Watch the cinematic of the start to the invasion of char. The entire battlefleet was nearly wiped out by the zerg anti air. The ground troops were scattered and slaughtered. Only our resident hero raynor managed to keep the entire debacle from turning into a total loss. Without him, its likely every human on char would have been slaughtered.
Again, game mechanics wise, units are produced insanely fast. It takes days to weeks for a new brood to hatch in fluff though, and I think we're digressing to fluff because otherwise Orks can produce entire squads of Boyz, Mega Armored Nobz, and vehicles from similar structures with a little bit of resources, and can literally produce infinite boys at no cost given time to build up.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Depends on Zerg strat, too. I mean, if they 6 pool or go in for 7 roach rush, they got this before the Orks get a foothold. Trying FE or Fast Mutas, the Orks have pop-capped before you have an army.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Acanous
Depends on Zerg strat, too. I mean, if they 6 pool or go in for 7 roach rush, they got this before the Orks get a foothold. Trying FE or Fast Mutas, the Orks have pop-capped before you have an army.
The difference being here, that Orks can produce their man of the line unit out of their first building.
I'd give sluggahs an easy chance against zerglings. Literally stomping on them.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Fan
Literally stomping on them.
Bad idea for banelings.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
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Originally Posted by
Kitten Champion
Bad idea for banelings.
The worst idea for banelings, but that requires transformation time, and resources, and a researched upgrade for them to be useful in any meaningful way.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fan
The worst idea for banelings, but that requires transformation time, and resources, and a researched upgrade for them to be useful in any meaningful way.
The Orks are attacking a Zerg-held world, chances are they'd already have Zerg, Zerg buildings, and Zerg Upgades.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
I admit that the ork reproductive speed is being overestimated- the 40k Wiki uses the word "Decades."
I wonder how the Orky Fungus-Creep would interact with the Zergy Fungus-Creep?
I still feel like the Orks are the closest thing to a custom-designed anti-zerg race that you're going to get. Rokkits, stik-bombs, flamers, and lots of dakka are going to work to thin the horde pretty effectively, and they enjoy melee enough to balance out enemy melee and keep their AoE units safe.
I mean, Killa Kans are 12 foot tall humanoid robots that have circular saws for hands and can mount a rocket launcher/flamethrower/heavy shooter. It isn't going to get much more anti-zerg than that.
The orks would get ripped to bits by the Protoss though.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
So since so many factors look to be depending on the leadership abilities of the general involved, I think we might have accidentally stumbled across a balanced Vs. match. I know, everyone take a minute to sit down while you recover from the shock.:smallcool:
I'm still a bit skeptical on the 'looted Terran units' thing, though...Tarsonis had been occupied by the Zerg for a long time, and they pretty much trashed everything capable of fighting back when they took it in the first place. I honestly can't see the Orks finding enough equipment in salvageable condition to actually field an appreciable number of Looted Valkyries or Looted Siege Tanks; they'd be much more likely to get field-stripped and rebuilt into Battlewagons or Fighta-Bommas.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Glyphstone
So since so many factors look to be depending on the leadership abilities of the general involved, I think we might have accidentally stumbled across a balanced Vs. match. I know, everyone take a minute to sit down while you recover from the shock.:smallcool:
I'm still a bit skeptical on the 'looted Terran units' thing, though...Tarsonis had been occupied by the Zerg for a long time, and they pretty much trashed everything capable of fighting back when they took it in the first place. I honestly can't see the Orks finding enough equipment in salvageable condition to actually field an appreciable number of Looted Valkyries or Looted Siege Tanks; they'd be much more likely to get field-stripped and rebuilt into Battlewagons or Fighta-Bommas.
It's a toss-up, really. Some Orks would repair and add spikes to the siege tank, others would take every siege tank gun they can find and strap it to a single chassis while converting any salvagable siege tank chassis into battlewagons.
Luckily, ammunition and resources aren't a problem because the surface of Tarsonis is covered in Spikey Blue Rocks that can be converted quickly and easily into any metal at all.
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Actually, that does bring up an interesting question - by the time Wings of Liberty occurs, Kerrigan has pulled out of Tarsonis entirely and it's become a Dominion world. Why did she leave? Was it a lack of resources, or was she just consolidating her forces?
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Re: Orks (40k) vs. Zerg (Starcraft)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord_Gareth
Actually, that does bring up an interesting question - by the time Wings of Liberty occurs, Kerrigan has pulled out of Tarsonis entirely and it's become a Dominion world. Why did she leave? Was it a lack of resources, or was she just consolidating her forces?
CLEARLY the battle with the Waaagh was proving to be an expensive stalemate, so she pulled out. :smalltongue: