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Hi all,
It's Jesse of Geekademia, the guy who did the interview with Rich via podcast awhile back. Anyway, this month I'm doing write-ups on some of my favorite villains, and today I picked Xykon. If you're of a mind to, feel free to check it out. Thanks!
http://non-productive.com/blog/2012/...s-month-xykon/
Excellent read. I enjoyed it.
That was a very interesting read. A few thoughts, spoiled since you liberally reference SoD spoilers in your analysis.
SpoilerOne thing that you touched on, but didn't outright state, is Xykon's role in setting the tone for the story. When he's relaxed and joking, the story as a whole tends to be relaxed and joking, but when Xykon gets angry, even when we simply know that he's angry while following the Order of the Stick, there is a sense of dread that permeates the comic. This was true when we saw Redcloak finally begin to settle down in his goblin village and knew it couldn't last, and it was true during the vast majority of the arc on the western continent, where we continue to wait for the moment when Xykon and Redcloak teleport in and completely change the dynamic with the Order and Tarquin.
The conclusion of my spoiler being that Xykon has become larger than life in this comic. He's a presence that can be felt and create tension even when he's not on panel, simply by knowing his current mood and intentions.
That's a pretty good point. I hadn't really thought about it that way, but Xykon's mood does make for a good series barometer as far as funny vs. serious. That said, I'm not 100% convinced that the Order or the Linear Guild will face off with Xykon and Redcloak in this arc. I have a strong suspicion that they'll get there once the Gate is blown and there's nothing left to do but head for Kraagor's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion
EDIT: Also, apologies about the spoilers. I do say at the start of the Villains Month series that I intend to use spoilers from time to time, but I guess it wasn't overtly said in that one.
I do not think it is a good analysis. Actually, I think it fails at actually "analyzing" anything, which would require going much deeper than this mostly descriptive text does.
It is a very good description of what we see in the comic and what is stated plainly during SoD and the online-strips, but the average thread on Xykon (Team Evil, etc) on this forum has deeper insights into Xykon as character, how our perception of him changed, his psychological motives, his relation to various characters and his role(s) in the narrative.
"Good" threads about Xykon drop some really interesting gems beyond/about those aspects mentioned.
Just read Anarion's comment above as example. Those few lines already go deeper than the linked article, as they actually enter a meta-layer.
The text there serves nicely at summarizing what we have learned about Xykon to get people who do not know OotS interested, but for that it's somewhat spoiler-heavy.
I admit I can only got a certain level of depth in an article that isn't extremely insider in nature. I was mainly getting at the basics of what I think makes Xykon a good villain without confusing my readers who haven't read all the books. In any case, I still thank you for reading it and giving it a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Btw, did you read the articles on "Gaming" (to the left) by Rich? He explains there how he builds Worlds and Willains (sic.), you might find that a very interesting read (which also gives insight in how Redcloak, Xykon and Tarquin might work).
That would mean the Oracle's prediction of Xykon being within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate will never come true.Quote:
Originally Posted by jidasfire
I think there is some valid analysis in the linked article. The point about the difference between the living Xykon and the lich Xykon is a good one, although I'm not sure how substantive it is - we have so little data about pre-lich Xykon that it's hard to draw conclusions from it with much confidence.
But it set me to thinking about Xykon's relationship with Redcloak. We tend to discuss Redcloak's feelings towards Xykon, but the usual assumption (as far as I've noted) is that Xykon simply enjoys messing with RC because he's that kind of jerk. But what if it's more personal than that?
SODSpoilerWe know that Xykon claims to be fine with his undead condition. He was not at all reluctant to change, and he openly claims it's a logical part of his life plan. "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."
But Xykon-the-living never had much of a life plan - like Belkar, he lived very much in the moment. I doubt if he ever gave much thought to the BFB. It was Redcloak who raised his sights to world domination in the first place and set him to thinking long-term; it was Redcloak who guided him into the fix that made it necessary to make him a lich, and it was Redcloak who performed the actual procedure. In a sense, Redcloak created Xykon as we know him.
Maybe Xykon holds a very special core of hatred for RC for that. And maybe he figures he owes it to RC to make sure that he (RC), of all people, gets to experience personally the full fallout of Xykon's inhumanity.
Huh. I hadn't considered that. Does Xykon hold a grudge against Redcloak for his transformation? "You made me into a monster so I'll return the favor?" Could be. I had always thought it was because Xykon holds his evil up as a source of pride, while Redcloak lives in denial about it. In a twisted way, Xykon likes to pass on wisdom to others, as he also did with both Dorukan and V. Xykon's lessons are, after all, not exactly given in the spirit of generosity. They tend to be the sort that break the person listening, and telling Redcloak the truth about himself, even if Xykon caused that truth, seems to be in line with his style.Quote:
Originally Posted by veti
Xykon knows very well he has lost everything that made living worth living. Yes, he enjoys his undeath, his cruelty, his evil... but from all the things he had and loved as mortal, that is the only thing he has left.
What else can he do but uphold the only thing that he has?
Or: "What good is life if all the other things have gone?"
Xykon is a liar and a bluffer. Xykon never liked his own ego tarnished. A lot of what he tells and shows is fake.
The change in SoD from "horribly evil but still somewhat charming and human" to "purely abomination" is very sudden. It's the scene in the diner where Xykon suddenly realizes what he actually has lost in the transformation: All the little things that make us human (and in some way, dieing is also part of that - and even that isn't open to Xykon anymore).
Not necessarily. It may come to pass that Xykon and Co. teleport into the desert, search for a while, and Xykon says "Screw it, let's go check out the Gate in arctic. Killing things sounds more fun than searching." Thus, they pass within 1000 feet of the Gate without actually finding it. Granted, that was a lot more plausible before the Draketooths died and the illusions started to fail, but it's still possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kish
I never thought it was really plausible. Xykon takes some things very seriously indeed. He's not going to stop searching for Girard's Gate within a thousand feet of it--particularly, but not limited to, when that would mean an implicit admission that Girard's magic is more powerful than Xykon's (Girard can conceal the gate better than Xykon can find it).
I'll grant that it was never really a likely course for the story. For no other reason than that, with the possible exception of Xykon's Fortress-Tomb-Thingy, Kraagor's Gate makes the most dramatic setting for the climax. Powerful monsters and the fact that it's the last one, which means that the stakes are as high as possible for all concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kish
I'm pretty sure that Rich is done screwing with us on the technicalities and loopholes in the Oracle's prophecies, but if he wanted to keep Xykon out of this fight and have the Order take down one of the cosmic flying buttresses all by themselves, it wouldn't be the wildest stretch of the Oracle's words to have it come to pass that way.
Plus, Xykon's explicitly shown to have grown impatient with pointless delays between him and world domination. Pride isn't nearly as big a hangup for him as, say, Vaarsuvius. I think it'd be in-character for him to decide it'd be faster to stop digging in the sand, go to the arctic, beat up a bunch of monsters, take the Gate, and THEN use that power to simply steamroll Girard's illusions. As evidenced by Fyron's murder, Xykon doesn't care how he wins, as long as he wins.
Of course, as I said, with the illusions having mostly failed, the probability that Team Evil will be slowed down enough for Xykon's patience to become a factor is fast approaching zero.
Xykon would never leave the desert without having at least found... something.
We know what he does in these cases: Press normal people into an army of several thousand, get (force, hire) lots of magical help and then, you know, comb the desert (by making the soldiers crawl it, an inch by an inch).
Well, we can agree that's not going to happen, so this is entirely academic, but - in this case, I don't think that approach would work anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
- The desert is big. Even an army of many thousands would take months to comb it as you describe.
- Most living slaves would be dead (of thirst, or sunstroke) within a couple of days on the job.
- There's a limit to how many zombies Xykon can control, and I'm not sure how effective they'd be as searchers anyway.
For a pointless academic question you elaborated exetensively. ;)
Xykon would make them crawl years through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by veti
Last I looked there were cities around the desert. Xykon would get more people. And he has Redcloak for organising the Not-dieing-until-I-allow-it-thing.Quote:
Most living slaves would be dead (of thirst, or sunstroke) within a couple of days on the job.
Zombies are bad searchers. But we are not talking about zombies anyway.Quote:
There's a limit to how many zombies Xykon can control, and I'm not sure how effective they'd be as searchers anyway.
:smallsmile: What can I say? It's what we do here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Cities have two things that are not portable: continuous water sources, and shelter. I don't see how Redcloak could provide those to a whole army on a continuous basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Both are equally important to survival in the desert. Lack of either water or shelter will kill you within 24 hours (maybe a little longer if you have an exceptional CON.)
With Xykon's perfect knowledge of the whereabouts of the gates, I don't see why he shouldn't just pack up and head to another unguarded one the second he sees the Order occupying the Gate they are currently after. It's not like He needs all of them, just one.
...Xykon run from the Order? Have we been reading the same comic?
The other gate is going to be guarded as well...and probably beter than with a bunch of lame mid-level-ass adventurers.Quote:
Originally Posted by sims796
Good point, though the way I see it, he has free reign to do whatever he pleases at this point. Simply knowing the exact location of every Gate there is puts him at a tremendous advantage. As far as I know, he isn't certain what dangers he'll face in this Gate or the next, but he knows what trouble the Order would present on top of those dangers. Why not just say "screw it, the next Gate will be easier to grab", and leave the Order in the lurch? They can't be in two places at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2323mike
Ehm, I'm not sure how much he really knows (or cares) about the Order. Last time he just snuffed their leader without breaking a sweat and probably forgot about that already. So, no - I think that if he recognizes them as an opposition, he won't think about changing plans. He will start Meteor Showering them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sims796
You're right, though I'm looking at this as an outside reader who's used to the villains plans being derailed by avoiding common sense, I tend to forget how Xykon tends to run things.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2323mike
Well, he might recognize that Bluepommel guy who really, really insisted on getting killed last time their paths crossed...
There's no way it will cause Xykon to say "screw this", though.
A) Tents.Quote:
Originally Posted by veti
B) Wagon treks (and for the RPG-like setting it would probably sufficient realistic to just conquer some oasis or three a few dozen miles away); for the overkill-solution see below.
It does not have to be perfect, I doubt that neither Redcloak nor Xykon would mind a few hundred or even thousand dieing each month due to the bad situation they are in.
"Cannot be done" is a very strong claim in a RPG-Fantasy like setting, especially if Redcloak has access to a daily or weekly Gate spell to the Elemental Plane of Water. He can turn entire acres of desert into lakes if he wishes to.
(A 20 ft disk is 29,22 m², assuming a flow of 1 m per second (from the elemental plane of water this is not too far fetched, that is 30 m³ per second, and he has a duration of some 17ish rounds (rounds per level, each round is six seconds).
Redcloak can get ~3000 tons of water per cast - I doubt water is an issue at all :smallwink: )
I think we're forgetting something important: Serini's diary. Xykon knows EXACTLY where the gate is.
That depends. The exact meaning of "exactly" is also important depending on what you mean Xykon does?Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyd211
And yes, if he comes, he'll go right there. He still has to go there, though. Teleport right at it is probably not going to work, he'll have to walk/fly to the coordinates in the desert just as anyone else and then has to make his way to the gate (around which Girard might have build something, rocks, the pyramid etc).
How intelligent are zombies anyway? In d&d terms, at least. Can they follow basic instructions? Can Reddy create zombies that can do that?
Spoilers for SoD:
SpoilerThe coffee incident was what got me. What make me realize that Xykon is fearsome, and I wouldn't want to be anywhere remotely close to him, ever.
There are normal undead and greater ones. Zombies are normal ones. You can tell them "Go there, smash this, stay here" but "search the desert and come back if you find something" is beyond them.Quote:
Originally Posted by sims796
You can only use them to search for pits and ditches by letting them walk and eventually fall into them.
Couldn't he learn Polymorph Any Object and change himself into a young human in order to enjoy coffee, food, wine, sex...etc., and later dismiss the spell and go back to lich for business?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Xykon only needs to create a single intelligent, infectious undead, able to control its own spawn, like a Wight or Wraith, and order it to turn their human prisioners into undead and voila! cheap undead army under his control!Quote:
Originally Posted by veti
Game technical that "might" be possible... but what good is a Curse of Utter Depravity if you can easily wiggle out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clistenes
Vampires who can just put on Sunlotion and substitute blood for Coca Cola are totally stupid as they get around what is actually their (in the worse cases self-inflicted) burden.
You can also ask in the case of an abomination on the scale of Xykon: Does this possibility even occur to him? He is not remotely human anymore, so why should he even ponder this? Why should he give up etearnal life and all the "good" things his curse brought him? He might not even see it as curse anymore but as blessing, that freed him from all the "human" burdens, like old age, fragility, the need to eat, and morals...
In any case: If you have a curse you can get around then it's no curse at all. That (in a game or any story) is hellish boring and the author a) should not have bothered at all with introducing the curse in the first place but have his character just be some evil human and b) probably look should for another job he actually can do.
Well, Xykon would still be a creature of utter evil and depravity (PaO wouldn't change him morally), so if he were able to turn human for fun, he would be even more dangerous and wicked (just think the things real life psychos have done for pleasure...*shudder*).Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
I wouldn't have a problem with Xykon being able to become human for some periods of time to have his wicked fun: He's not a tragic figure/tortured villain (that's Redcloak role); he's a complete monster, and becoming temporally human would only allow him to be a complete monster in different ways.
Xykon already was a rapist when he was mortal. He spared nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clistenes
I've seen a similar "Lich able to temporarily take on human form" setup in Eternal Darkness and Pirates of the Carribean, and rather than totally negating the impact of the curse, it added to the creepiness of the curse and the character. Then again, those weren't as self-inflicted, so yeah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Pirates of the Carribean: No, they could not circumvent the curse at all. They just appeard differently, but they still were cursed.
No eating, no sleeping, no nothing. Even if they seemed human, they were just as cursed.
It's the same with Vampires: No matter how they might appear as human - they are not and do not function like them. That's part of their curse.
What is suggested here is totally different, it's a complete, yet temporary, mitigation of the actual curse itself by applying some aetheric phlogiston (in this case "magic").
Also, the curse was self-inflicted: Murder and Greed caused it in the very end (that it was "bad gold" is, I think, just the narrative fluff around it).
I have no clue on Eternal Darkness. But even if it's true, on example, no matter if well done or crappy, does in no way violate the truth of the general rule.
IF you can mitigate a curse it can only serve, in a narrative, as mean to strengthen the impression of the actual curse. As such, any mitigation would just make it worse. Which again makes the curse worse, which again highlights it's a curse instead of giving "a time out from it".