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"S'lesss than what you took from me"
I'm starting a thread to discuss what Wanda might have meant by those curious words. I saw many people assume she's talking about Jillian, but some other possibilities occur as well.
Let's discuss it to death, shall we?
Theory 1: She's mad at losing Jillian.
Clues: We've seen Wanda showing strong attachment to Jillian, and their breaking-up encounter seems to have left Wanda enraged.
Counter-arguments: The end of a relationship vs the mass-massacre and uncroaking of 2000+ people seem hardly comparable. Still, Wanda has been hinted to have a fairly twisted mind.
Theory 2: She blames Ansom for the destruction of Faq
Clues: The way Faq's downfall has been presented (incomplete information about a strange flight of dwagons, then a sudden "poof!") suggests, on a meta-story level, that the authors are setting us up for a secret twist. If the Jetstone side had been responsible, it would match the "good guys are not as heroic as they look" theme that Erfworld has going at the moment. Wanda and Jack (the two surviving units who actually saw what happened) are both surprisingly loyal to Stanley in this conflict. As some people have suggested, Stanley might have been their savior, rather than agressor. Was Jetstone the real culprit?
Counter-arguments: Ansom acts incredulous about Faq's existence the first time Jillian brings it up. Also, if Wanda blamed Jetstone for Faq's destruction, why hasn't she shared the story with Jillian?
Theory 3: Wanda popped to a now-extinct side older than Faq and Ansom is to blame for its destruction.
Clues: In the cast-page, Wanda is said to hail from the "Now-extinct Croatan tribe". At no time has the word "Croatan" been used in relation with Faq. Also, all Faq's human units we've seen were dark-skinned - the only exception is Jack and Wanda, which might suggest that they were turned/captured units. Another clue is Wanda's inexplicable loyalty to Stanley and unwillingness of bailing out from the conflict when offered the chance. The need for revenge on Ansom just might explain it. The cast page describes Wanda as lacking the "capacity for hope". Perhaps she has none left, and is ready to die herself if only for a chance to off Ansom before she goes.
Counter-arguments: the idea seems a bit convoluted and hinges on too many yet-urevealed story facts.
Approval/Disapproval of the 3 above?
Any other theories, however bizarre or convoluted, on the topic?
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
As the one who first posted #3 (to the best of my knowledge), I'm obviously supporting that theory. :smallsmile:
As for the objection: is it really convoluted? All it really needs is for the Croakan tribe to have been different from Faq and for it to have been destroyed by Ansom, everything else sort of follows from that. And it is superior to the other two in that:
1) Her claim that over two thousand deaths are less than what Ansom took from her seems a bit overblown if she were talking about Jillian.
2) We have never seen any indication that Faq = Croatan tribe, and anyway, Stanley is thought to have wiped that out. Of course, this might be a huge bluff by the authors, but still.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
The Minx
1) Her claim that over two thousand deaths are less than what Ansom took from her seems a bit overblown if she were talking about Jillian.
Not really. Lovers have made such claims in other stories and in real life.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
I thought she was talking about the Arkenpliers, hence why she was like, "Touch me. Touch me with them."
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
OmniPaul
I thought she was talking about the Arkenpliers, hence why she was like, "Touch me. Touch me with them."
For me it was all about pliers as well. She's sure that if she touched them, she would instantly attune to them.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
The Minx
As the one who first posted #3 (to the best of my knowledge), I'm obviously supporting that theory. :smallsmile:
As for the objection: is it really convoluted? All it really needs is for the Croakan tribe to have been different from Faq and for it to have been destroyed by Ansom, everything else sort of follows from that. And it is superior to the other two in that:
1) Her claim that over two thousand deaths are less than what Ansom took from her seems a bit overblown if she were talking about Jillian.
2) We have never seen any indication that Faq = Croatan tribe, and anyway, Stanley is thought to have wiped that out. Of course, this might be a huge bluff by the authors, but still.
Keep in mind, it was 2,000 re-animations, not deaths, that Ansom was complaining about.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
I'm with the Jillian thing.
Though what if Ansom took the Arkenpliers from Wanda? How else is she so sure she can attune to them? Maybe she had them before. Maybe she even used them to protect her Croatan tribe and that's when Ansom took them.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
...I thought that it was the pliers as she was reaching out for them when 'he took them from her'
...however in response to the OP's point #2/3, I agree that there is probably a lot more that went on with the destruction of Faq than we have been made aware, which will most probably be revealed given due time. However the main problem I see with Ansom destroying her previous Croatan tribe is that as a caster she should have been captured croaked or disbanded, so if anyone destroyed the Croatan tribe, it would have probably been Banhammer!
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
The pliers argument is growing on me.
However it is not beyong the realm of credulity that some combination of the three isn't the underlying reason behind Wanda's unrelenting emnity.
I like the woman scorned in favour of the one she blames for her peoples distruction who in turn stole from her a sacred artifact entrusted to her people by the Titans theory.
Eat your heart out Shakespear.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
I also vote for the Jillian thing. After all, Wanda didn't kill all those people. She just turned them into uncroaked which is, admittedly, something she enjoys, as she's a croakamancer above anything else (and really hates using any other magic).
Characters are popped into existance. They didn't grow up with friends or families. Some people, like the royals, warlords, casters, and nobles may find life easier than the average grunt as they get to interact with other royals, warlords, casters, and nobles. Thus developing a kind of friendship.
This points out to me that relationships someone makes in Erfworld are on a whole different level. Wanda cared about Jillian who betrayed that trust. Not only that, but Wanda's spell backfired and fried her brain. I assume it didn't help that Jillian directly compared Wanda to Ansom in their last encounter (which basically went like this: you're better than Ansom, but Ansom treats me better, so I'm gonna dump you for Ansom. It's not you, it's me, blah, blah, blah--oh, and I'm going to go kill your Overlord so you're free and can watch me and Ansom be happy forever and ever and ever).
So it seems to me that Ansom took from Wanda what she cherished most in the world. Compared to that, yeah, it is actually less, seeing as how Ansom cares less for his mooks than Wanda does for her uncroaked. After all, a king can always pop out more infantry. I doubt Stanley can create a love interest for Wanda.
Lastly, you have to remember that Wanda's brain not work fine good stuff. She may be a tad bit...wacky, as illustrated by her apparent desire to be killed off. Her admittedly skewed morals may have taken a nose-dive thanks to the whiplash of her thinkamancy spell.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
No, Ansom didn't cost her Jillian. Wanda never blamed Ansom, she realized she misjudged Jillian in the end. In the conversation of 94-95, Wanda never once said a word about Ansom.
What we do have is Jaclyn's, "She's under no loyalty spells."
Compare with Ansom's reaction to "S'lasssss than what you took from me", in which Ansom very clearly shows regret.
Ansom did something to Wanda, somewhere. And he knows it's his fault. It's bad enough that Wanda sided with Stanley, perhaps entirely because she knew she would come to face Ansom.
There's history here. Major history. It might have something to do with Faq, but I expect it will not be anything near obvious. Perhaps Ansom was asked to come to Faq's defence, but failed. Or maybe Wanda wound up with Jetstone after Stanley took Faq, and something happened there to someone Wanda desired. Who knows? There are a thousand possibilities.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Kreistor
No, Ansom didn't cost her Jillian. Wanda never blamed Ansom, she realized she misjudged Jillian in the end. In the conversation of 94-95, Wanda never once said a word about Ansom.
That's a matter of interpretation. In essence, Jillian chose Ansom over Wanda. As Wanda said, Jillian knew how important those dwagons were to GK. Of course, what Jillian said is that Wanda took her control too far.
In any event, I really am not laying any bets as to what the back story is. I don't think Faq's downfall was as simple as Jillian believes it to have been.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Finwe
Keep in mind, it was 2,000 re-animations, not deaths, that Ansom was complaining about.
Yes, nit-pick noted and acknowledged. :smallsmile:
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Originally Posted by
OmniPaul
I thought she was talking about the Arkenpliers, hence why she was like, "Touch me. Touch me with them."
So, some previous undisclosed background where she possessed the arkenpliers or something like it? Come to think of it, that might work too, in fact. If so, I wonder whether Stanley knew about the connection.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Finwe
Keep in mind, it was 2,000 re-animations, not deaths, that Ansom was complaining about.
Ansom sees them as abominations; Wanda sees them as the successful application of her favorite type of magic. Obviously, she isn't going to see Ansom's grievance as all that big a deal; to her, he's getting all bent out of shape over some silly hangup. (And that isn't even counting the normal human tendency to undervalue other people's issues in comparison than one's own.)
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Personally I think turning someone into a zombie is at least as bad as killing them in the first place. I certainly would be as angry about it.
I also wonder if that line was meant to be as ambiguous as everyone is has found it to be. I figured it was a comment about Jillian because, well, that's the first and only thing that occured to me upon reading it. The second possibility seems very far-fetched and so far has scant evidence to support it (no evidence, really, except perhaps the lack of contradictary evidence). As for the possibility that there's something big we don't know, well, that's always true.
EDIT: Also, not to nitpick, but some people are analyzing Ansom's expression after Wanda says the line in question. However, we can't see his face in that panel. We see only Wanda, and in the next panel we have a far shot of Ansom where his expression is unreadable. In the closeup panel he's reacting to Wanda's demand/request that he let her touch the pliers. He's more likely contemplating whether finishing her off is worth the risk of whatever will happen if the pliers touch her than reacting to her comment from before, so I don't think that tells us much.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Ansom caused Wanda to lose her sanity and gave her a mild aphasy also(through Jillian's feelings for him), which is quite a big deal for a high-level caster-councillor!
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
I'm with option number 3.
We know Wanda popped to a different side instead of Faq, and we don't know why her (and Jack) have such fierce loyalty to Stanley. I'm betting its a subtle reference to untold backstory.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
We know Wanda popped to a different side instead of Faq
Huh? I don't recall anything that would indicate that.
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and we don't know why her (and Jack) have such fierce loyalty to Stanley. I'm betting its a subtle reference to untold backstory.
This part I agree with (except that it's not all that "subtle" at indicating the existence of a yet-unknown backstory).
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
As for their fierce loyalty, despite all of it, Stanley actually seems like a fairly nice guy. He's passionate. He is stubborn, but can be made to see reason. We don't know what other rulers are like, but your typical (stupid) villain Stanley ain't.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
It simple, Ansom is evil. He is the bad guy after all, his closet must be filled to the rim with skeletons, I would even dare to venture that some of te odies are not even done decomposing yet.
Ansom is obviously the second most evil character that we know of in the comic thus far. (Charlie is, of course, much more evil)
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Altima
As for their fierce loyalty, despite all of it, Stanley actually seems like a fairly nice guy.
...say what?
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
K2
(Charlie is, of course, much more evil)
To quote Lord Zentei, "...say what?"
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
DevilDan
To quote Lord Zentei, "...say what?"
oh, I just kinda hate him right now, I understand why he did what he did, and why the comic is being written that way. I was just really looking forward to seeing an uncroaked Ansom beat Jillian to death with those pliers. And Charlie took that away from me.
Its just a very strange, kinda creepy, way my mind works, thing.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveMB
Huh? I don't recall anything that would indicate that.
The cast page, obviously.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
We should keep in mind that Jillian's choice "broke" Wanda, and I'm not sure it was just the backlash from the spell. That would seem to favor 1).
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Originally Posted by
The Minx
So, some previous undisclosed background where she possessed the arkenpliers or something like it? Come to think of it, that might work too, in fact. If so, I wonder whether Stanley knew about the connection.
Wanda knew exactly how to engage and wrest the pliers from Ansom. That was a mighty staff (it blocked archon fire) but Ansom's words hint at the pliers doing something unexpected.
I like the idea of Ansom exterminating a croakamancy oriented tribe, for Jetstone that's an abomination. Wanda could be doing mercenary work at the time and thus escaped death, maybe she wasn't even a croakamancer then.
Of course this could fit into speculations that Wanda may have betrayed Faq, and may even be the mind behind Saline's death. The heir to a city holding an arkentool, and a non-royal, sure to raise Jetstone's anger if he ever became king?
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
The cast page, obviously.
The cast page doesn't say Jillian's tribe. She may be Croatan, we don't know Faq's tribe.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
teratorn
The cast page doesn't say Jillian's tribe. She may be Croatan, we don't know Faq's tribe.
We don't need to. From the little we've seen of Faq it clearly has no cultural connection to Wanda. From all of Wanda's attire we've not seen anything remotely similar to the feudal-japan style garb of Faq. Its even less likely that a city based on philosophy would want to pop a coakmancer then it would a war-like heir. In addition to this there is nothing that connects the word 'coatan' to the orient that I can find. It is a supposedly extinct native American tribe.
Besides, I'm not convinced that Wanda was just referring to Jillian. It would make sense if her reasons for wanting to fight for Stanley were exactly the same as Jillians for Ansom.
But more then anything else my instincts tell me this was about unfolding the backstory a little further and setting out character motivations before jillians return, the full explanation and conclusion of the main plotline.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
We don't need to. From the little we've seen of Faq it clearly has no cultural connection to Wanda.
The same can be said for Sizemore yet he is plaid.
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From all of Wanda's attire we've not seen anything remotely similar to the feudal-japan style garb of Faq.
Huh, what about #54? And we know Wanda eats sushi. Besides, we also don't see that in Jillian's attire while with RCC.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
And what do we know of the plaid?
Still not convinced. There's nothing to say that Wanda popped as a Faq unit, or anything connecting a native American tribe to an eastern-philosophical tribe. #54 can be dismissed as coincidental due to the time she spent in Faq.
I don't think 'Croatan' was picked at random. Its clearly a reference to something.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Altima
So it seems to me that Ansom took from Wanda what she cherished most in the world.
Seems that way to me, too. I vote #1.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
I originally thought she meant Jill, but have to say that looking at it again, and particularly panels 6-9 of Page 122, I'm beginning to wonder whether she is talking about the Arkenpliers.
The dialogue is spread across 3 panels (6-8), but taking it all together, it looks to me like Wanda could indeed be talking about the pliers.
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S'less than what you took from me. Touch me. Come down. Touch me with them.
Maybe I'm reading that dialogue together when it's not meant to be, but it is enough to make me wonder, and especially when combined with the look on Ansom's face in panel 8, and the way he's holding them in 9; Others have suggested that he's drawn back to strike, but it looks to me more like he's withdrawing them, as far from Wanda's reach as possible.
This theory might also explain why Ansom can't attune, the previous wielder still being alive, and, how Wanda was able to do, whatever it was she did to them, in panel one of page 120, to make ansom say "Here! what have you done to it?" (assuming, of course, he was talking about the pliers).
I'm sure time will tell, but as theories go I'm quite fond of it at the moment. :)
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
Still not convinced. There's nothing to say that Wanda popped as a Faq unit,
And nothing to say she didn't. Occam's Razor (no, not one of the tools in her interrogation kit) argues against the theory that she popped in some as-yet unknown side unless story evidence for that turns up.
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or anything connecting a native American tribe to an eastern-philosophical tribe.
So? There's nothing connecting plaid cloth to goblins, but the Plaid tribe is clearly associated with the capital city of Gobwin Knob.
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#54 can be dismissed as coincidental due to the time she spent in Faq.
I wouldn't put too much weight on something like this anyway; it could just be the authors throwing in another real-world reference as part of the running pattern.
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I don't think 'Croatan' was picked at random. Its clearly a reference to something.
Er, perhaps a reference to the fact that the tribe was lost, an obvious parallel to the lost-colony story referenced by the word.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
HPV
I originally thought she meant Jill, but have to say that looking at it again, and particularly panels 6-9 of Page 122, I'm beginning to wonder whether she is talking about the Arkenpliers.
The dialogue is spread across 3 panels (6-8), but taking it all together, it looks to me like Wanda could indeed be talking about the pliers.
Maybe I'm reading that dialogue together when it's not meant to be, but it is enough to make me wonder, and especially when combined with the look on Ansom's face in panel 8, and the way he's holding them in 9; Others have suggested that he's drawn back to strike, but it looks to me more like he's withdrawing them, as far from Wanda's reach as possible.
This theory might also explain why Ansom can't attune, the previous wielder still being alive, and, how Wanda was able to do, whatever it was she did to them, in panel one of page 120, to make ansom say "Here! what have you done to it?" (assuming, of course, he was talking about the pliers).
I'm sure time will tell, but as theories go I'm quite fond of it at the moment. :)
It also fits the way he retreated while coming up with a rationalization for the act (what, he's only just now realizing that personal indulgences on the battlefield are a bad idea?) If Wanda believes that the Arkenpliers would attune to her given a chance -- or, better yet, knows that it did attune to her in the past -- she could be rubbing Ansom's nose in another bit of evidence that his views about who is and is not favored by the Titans are a load of crap.
IMO, Ansom harbors some insecurities on that issue, and can't bring himself to face them squarely. That, ultimately, could be why he wants to wipe out Stanley -- the annoying little man whose words and very existence as an attuned Arkentool wielder strike at the chipped foundation of his worldview.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Of course, if Wanda was the Arkenpliers previous owner it would imply that she has some pre-FAQ history, or that she only owned them for a relatively short period, between Jillian last leaving FAQ and the city falling.
Afterall, if Wanda had owned the pliers during her FAQ days Jill would very likely have known, and probably would have asked Ansom just how he get hold of them. *shrug*
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Alexei P
I'm starting a thread to discuss what Wanda might have meant by those curious words. I saw many people assume she's talking about Jillian, but some other possibilities occur as well.
Let's discuss it to death, shall we?
Theory 1: She's mad at losing Jillian.
This. This is the only option which uses the known storyline for solid support. Any other speculation about FAQ and the Archenpliers is just that, speculation based on nothing within the revealed history. People have a huge tendency when discussing this comic (and OotS) to prefer wild, unsupported theories rather than looking at what's been shown as the determining factor (I'll refer the example curious reader to the speculation surrounding Brainy Pete and what the CoL did to him off-panel, when we had on-panel sound effects which made the result absolutely certain to any reader willing to take them at face value and not speculate wildly that some kind of surprise was awaiting them simply because we didn't see brain matter stuck to a mace). It's rather amusing to me, as neither of these strips has ever been much on surprise twists of that nature.
I'll admit that the Erf authors have been careful about revealing several background facts which might come in to play in the future:
Who caused the "surprising" Gobwin uprising which killed Saline IV;
Who attacked FAQ;
Which side is the aggressor in this conflict (not who is on the offensive or defensive now, but who started the war in the first place);
etc.
But the absence of these facts should not be taken as a reason to look for hidden meanings in every exchange. Wanda is currently suffering from the magic backlash of Jillian's decision to declare her love to Ansom and attack the Dwagons despite Wanda's guarantees to Stanley and Parson that this would not and could not happen. This cost Wanda greatly, both emotionally and in her standing with Stanley. Remember that Stanley accused her of the possibility of betrayal and decided that even if it wasn't a betrayal that she had lost her use to him and that it was time for him to carry out his quest on his own.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveMB
And nothing to say she didn't. Occam's Razor (no, not one of the tools in her interrogation kit) argues against the theory that she popped in some as-yet unknown side unless story evidence for that turns up.
I believe the evidence is there already. The fact that no one has managed to put together a cogent reason to why Jack and Wanda are loyal to Stanley (despite the 'notoriously low' loyalty of captured units and lack of loyalty spell) implies there are pieces missing from the puzzle, or miss-information. If Wanda was never an original Faq unit to begin with that would help explain some of her motivations. Clearly there is something else going on beyond the fall of Faq, or Wanda would have revealed the truth of the attack already to turn Jillian.
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So? There's nothing connecting plaid cloth to goblins, but the Plaid tribe is clearly associated with the capital city of Gobwin Knob.
How do we know that? How do we know that it isn't the city itself that's associated with Gobwins, and the Plaids control the Gobwins through the city in the same way that Stanley controls the Dwagons through the Hammer? There isn't enough info in klog #9 to figure out exactly how it works.
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I wouldn't put too much weight on something like this anyway; it could just be the authors throwing in another real-world reference as part of the running pattern.
Agreed, but I have a gut feeling. ;)
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Er, perhaps a reference to the fact that the tribe was lost, an obvious parallel to the lost-colony story referenced by the word.
Perhaps.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
BillyJimBoBob
This. This is the only option which uses the known storyline for solid support. Any other speculation about FAQ and the Archenpliers is just that, speculation based on nothing within the revealed history.
I'll grant that FAQ and arkenplier theories are no more than speculation, although, (at the risk of sounding like Donald Rumsfeld) I'd add that despite not being based on revealed history, they are based on holes which we know exist in our knowledge.
Personally I think too much has already been made of FAQ related stuff, within the story, for the details to be minutia that we as an audience don't need to know, so I'm expecting (or at least hoping) that we'll find out at some point. *shrug*
I'm also happy to accept that Jillian is, from what we know, most likely what Wanda was talking about, but even that theory isn't entirely watertight (IIRC Wanda blames herself for pushing Jill to far, which isn't to say that she might not also blame Ansom *shrug*) so it doesn't hurt to consider other possibilities which don't contradict the facts as we know them IMHO.
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People have a huge tendency when discussing this comic (and OotS) to prefer wild, unsupported theories rather than looking at what's been shown as the determining factor
Agreed, I've noticed and been amused, at times, by the same trend, but I'd say there's a difference between speculating about how some known unknowns might fit together (& indeed looking for possible subtle clues about them in the plot as it progresses), & getting dogmatically attached to these pet theories to the point of arguing over it.
Personally, I see no harm in the former, but think the latter is a colossal waste of time *shrug*
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
Still not convinced. There's nothing to say that Wanda popped as a Faq unit
Except for her eyes.
Aside from Parson the only characters with whites to their eyes have been Faq units (i.e. Jillian, Jack and Wanda)
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Chicken Little
Except for her eyes.
Aside from Parson the only characters with whites to their eyes have been Faq units (i.e. Jillian, Jack and Wanda)
And Manpower, but he was working for Stanley too, he could have come from Faq.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
Jack has pink eyes.
What you can see clearly in the last panel here is that, unlike most other characters, Jack's eyes show a clearly delineated colored iris surrounded by white.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
Jack has pink eyes.
As noted by DevilDan, the colours reversed when he recovered his senses.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveMB
Huh? I don't recall anything that would indicate that.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html
Wanda served under Banhammer, doesn't mean she popped under him, but considering how pacifist the nation was I doubt he was doing much conquering and capturing.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
Surprise!
True, but by the same token you have to wonder why on earth the peace loving Banhammer would bother popping a croakamancer.
If you're not going to have a load of dead bodies lying around to uncroak (unlikely for a pacifist, isolationist faction) wouldn't it make more sense to spend the schmuckers on a different kind of caster, one that's likely to be more useful for that kind of nation? Or, failing that, just keep the cash in your treasury & avoid spending the upkeep each turn?
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
HPV
True, but by the same token you have to wonder why on earth the peace loving Banhammer would bother popping a croakamancer.
Was Wanda popped specifically as a Croakamancer? She can handle a wide range of magicks and specializes in Croakamancy by personal preference (and it's clear that the personality of a popped unit is not something the ruler gets to select).
(For that matter, specialized caster abilities may not be under the ruler's control; it may only be possible to choose to pop "a caster" and get pot luck for the details.)
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
HPV
True, but by the same token you have to wonder why on earth the peace loving Banhammer would bother popping a croakamancer.
If you're not going to have a load of dead bodies lying around to uncroak (unlikely for a pacifist, isolationist faction) wouldn't it make more sense to spend the schmuckers on a different kind of caster, one that's likely to be more useful for that kind of nation? Or, failing that, just keep the cash in your treasury & avoid spending the upkeep each turn?
It's been speculated that Wanda wasn't popped as a croakamancer given her apparent talent across a variety of magical disciplines.
Also, maybe one doesn't really know what kind of caster will be popped. The fact that Sizemore can do some magics outside dirtamancy suggests that there is no concrete rule preventing casters from engaging in multiple disciplines, talent permitting.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DevilDan
It's been speculated that Wanda wasn't popped as a croakamancer given her apparent talent across a variety of magical disciplines.
Also, maybe one doesn't really know what kind of caster will be popped. The fact that Sizemore can do some magics outside dirtamancy suggests that there is no concrete rule preventing casters from engaging in multiple disciplines, talent permitting.
GMTA. :smallsmile: One minor quibble: Sizemore hasn't had much success learning non-Dirtamancy magic, but the fact that he's even bothering to try indicates (especially given that Sizemore does have a fair bit of abstract knowledge of magic generally) that it's not unreasonable for casters to attempt to learn things outside their specialties.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
It is entirely possible that Wanda was refering to all her fallen creations. Jillian referred to them as Wanda's dolls. Wanda probably cares for her uncroaked and holds Ansom responsible for effortlessly dusting her creations over and over again in the battlefield.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteveMB
GMTA. :smallsmile: One minor quibble: Sizemore hasn't had much success learning non-Dirtamancy magic, but the fact that he's even bothering to try indicates (especially given that Sizemore does have a fair bit of abstract knowledge of magic generally) that it's not unreasonable for casters to attempt to learn things outside their specialties.
Janis said that Sizemore "didn't make much progress" in teaching him Hippiemancy, and Sizemore said that he "didn't expect to be very good at it." That suggests that some progress was made and that he was did have some, however small, degree of proficiency in that discipline.
Later, he says that he is "only good" at his own specialty, not that he can't do anything but dirtamancy.
Yes, I may be grasping at straws; I think that it is not an unreasonable conclusion, though.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ObadiahtheSlim
It is entirely possible that Wanda was refering to all her fallen creations. Jillian referred to them as Wanda's dolls. Wanda probably cares for her uncroaked and holds Ansom responsible for effortlessly dusting her creations over and over again in the battlefield.
In that statement, Jillian was classifying herself as well as the uncroaked warlords as Wanda's "dolls."
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SteveMB
Was Wanda popped specifically as a Croakamancer?
She can handle a wide range of magicks and specializes in Croakamancy by personal preference (and it's clear that the personality of a popped unit is not something the ruler gets to select).
(For that matter, specialized caster abilities may not be under the ruler's control; it may only be possible to choose to pop "a caster" and get pot luck for the details.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DevilDan
It's been speculated that Wanda wasn't popped as a croakamancer given her apparent talent across a variety of magical disciplines.
Also, maybe one doesn't really know what kind of caster will be popped. The fact that Sizemore can do some magics outside dirtamancy suggests that there is no concrete rule preventing casters from engaging in multiple disciplines, talent permitting.
Fair points :) Have to admit that it might make some sense if the type of caster to be popped was random; Else everyone would end up with the same powerful caster combos & very few people would likely choose to pop, conventionally weaker, types like dirtamancers (except for the ultimately puerile- "teehee! crap golems!" :smallbiggrin:)
OTOH, there does seem to be a difference in the power levels of the different caster types we've seen, actually, correction: they all seem to have potential to be awesome, it's more that some caster types have less situations/applications where they really shine (A dirtamancer's great in a tunnel fight, but overall I'd rather have a foolamancer on-side *shrug*)
Given that, it would be a real arse to pay out a load of cash for a caster and get something that's mostly useless to one's side, some games include this level of luck when it comes to buying forces, while others are more rigid in the way they try to balance stuff; Can't think of a good wargaming example atm, but transferring into RPGs for a mo, it's the difference between rolling PC stats randomly (1st Ed AD&D) or using a point based system so that everyone should be fairly equal to start with (4th Ed AD&D).
I don't think we have many clues as to where on the "cost-to-power balance" scale Erf mechanics lie. *shrug*
In anycase, what you both say is a possible explanation for FAQ having a croakamancer, although another might be that (assuming the Croatan weren't FAQs native tribe) Wanda turned up a barbarian refugee at FAQ and was worth taking in, & paying the upkeep for, precisely because she is so multi talented.
The 3rd possible explanation that occurred to me, while writing my last, was that Wanda may have been a left over from a FAQ ruler prior to Banhammer, although of the 3 I like this one least; It's possible that a previous ruler had great plans for expansion but croaked before realising them, leaving Banhammer to take over, but that feels tenuous even by the standards of wild speculation :smallbiggrin:
Whatever the case, it would be interesting to know a little more about the mechanics behind popping casters, and how their power levels, & aptitudes, are determined.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Based on our limited knowledge of foolamancy spells, if I were defending a city whose location is already known, I'd pick a dirtamancer over a foolamancer.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DevilDan
What you can see clearly in
the last panel here is that, unlike most other characters, Jack's eyes show a clearly delineated colored iris surrounded by white.
Mybad, I thought he said 'blue eyes' for some reason. ^^
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DevilDan
Based on our limited knowledge of foolamancy spells, if I were defending a city whose location is already known, I'd pick a dirtamancer over a foolamancer.
Admit it, you'd only be doing it for the crap golems! :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:
Seriously, you might be right, depending on how the rules work, but I can't help equating foolamancer with illusionist, & in many games I've played Illusions have been one of the most powerful forms of magic; If they're used creatively and cleverly, or, to put it another way, it's often one of the more "exploitable" types of magic.
I must admit I'm kind of expecting Parson to come up with some clever way of using Jack's talents to swing the tide in his favour. I don't expect it to win the war in it's own right, but I am guessing that Foolamancy will be significant in GK's victory over RCC.
Edit: Although, in fairness, I suppose the same statement could already be said of dirtamancy. Still, I stand by my point about the exploitability of illusions. *shrug*
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HPV
I must admit I'm kind of expecting Parson to come up with some clever way of using Jack's talents to swing the tide in his favour. I don't expect it to win the war in it's own right, but I am guessing that Foolamancy will be significant in GK's victory over RCC.
Edit: Although in fairness I suppose the same statement could already be said of dirtamancy. Still, I stand by my statement about the exploitability of illusions. *shrug*
The question in my mind is whether single illusions (like the idea of thinkagram spamming) make a significant difference in a large battle. You can cloak/disguise some friendly units and fool some enemy units, but unless you can cast multiple illusions simultaneously you're not likely to change the course of the battle, I'd guess. But a dirtamancer would be of great help defending tunnels, can heal and create golems, and can help pull nifty tricks like that rescue of Wanda.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
That is undoubtedly a very important unknown detail of how foolamancy works, but, off the top of my head, as an example of a relatively simple illusion that should be possible (if I've recalled things correctly) but which could have a massive effect if pulled off right:
How about, when Parson thinkagrams Jack for a status report, at the start of the next GK turn, & discovers that the remainder of Stanley's force is inbound, he arranges for Jack to create an illusion of a captured Jill, or maybe even better, disguise the remaining KISS to look like Jill, so that it appears to Ansom that she's turned.
If Ansom didn't see through it he could end up doing some crazy boop that might get him killed, captured, or just shake the coalition's faith in Ansom to the point where they're no longer willing to follow him.
Not saying that that's what's going to happen, or that it's the best use of foolamancy possible in the situation, just throwing it out there as a quick example of how even quite limited illusions might be used to significant effect in the current scenario. *shrug*
As for Dirtamancers, yeah Parson has made very good use of Sizemore's abilities, but Stanley certainly seemed to undervalue him; It's hard to tell whether Stanleys attitude to dirtamancy was the Erfworld norm, or just an example of Stanley's own lack of strategic ability. *shrug*
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
You're right, HPV. We don't know what sort of psych tricks the ultimate warlord could pull off with a capable foolamancer; Parson has a lot of experience with games, is well read, and is an excellent lateral thinker: who knows how he could exploit Jack's abilities?
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DevilDan
It's been speculated that Wanda wasn't popped as a croakamancer given her apparent talent across a variety of magical disciplines.
Also, maybe one doesn't really know what kind of caster will be popped. The fact that Sizemore can do some magics outside dirtamancy suggests that there is no concrete rule preventing casters from engaging in multiple disciplines, talent permitting.
That's a fair bet. Given that Jillian popped as a type of heir that Banhammer hated, it's a fair guess that the more powerful units such as Heirs, Casters, etc are subject to some degree of randomization. In game terms, when you elect to produce a Caster you might need to roll and consult a chart to see what type you get, and possibly their capabilities and interest with other magics is also randomized in some way.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Good chance we'll get some answers when Parson raids her stash.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
Either I'm stupid or blind, but this seems fairly straightforward to me. Of course, the author likes to turn straightforward on its ear every now and then but...
1) Romantic feelings aside, Wanda controlled Jillian. She owned her. Remember how many times she was confident beyond words that she had unbreakable hold on Jillian. When Jillian broke that control to free Ansom was when Wanda went catatonic.
Look, we KNOW Wanda had a magic link of some kind with Jillian. We KNOW it was a direct mental connection. And we know it was broken. Anyone remember the LAST time we saw that? The backlash of the Thinkamancer/Lookamancer/Foolamancer link killed Misty and drove Jack insane. Who's to say the breaking of Wanda's link with Jillian didn't have harmful effects as well? The link was not as complete as the aforementioned one (in where all three units were merged essentially into one cohesive mental state), but tehre's no reason there couldn't be some sort of backlash. And perhaps Jillian's strong self-will at that point, combined with Wanda's sudden loss of self-confidence, explains why only Wanda was hurt.
2) There's also the good ole "Jillian was the only thing Wanda ever loved, and Ansom 'took' her away" line. When you're talking about someone that enjoys torture, displays any number of sociopathic tendencies, and willingly enslaves the mind of someone else...well, killing and uncroaking 2000 random enemies doesn't seem so off the wall in terms of retaliation.
3) Ansom also took a lot more from Wanda. He took away her position as chief Croakamancer to Stanley. He took away her confidence. He nearly detroyed her new home in Gobwin Knob. And worst of all, he destroyed any confidence or respect her leader, Stanley, had for her. She lost everything that made her what she was, thanks to Ansom and his war. Stanley almost disbanded her! One could argue it was Parson's failed strategies, or her own overconfidence in the link with Jillian, but a mind as warped as Wanda's would seek an external source. One she could easily hate. Ansom.
4) Let's go back to Wanda's origins. She's listed as being from a long-lost tribe, not from Faq. The way I see it, that's not just a random reference. NOTHING in this series has been all that random. There's been clear planning all along the path, and I think it's still the case. I think Wanda was from a tribe that was destroyed, and was brought into Faq because of some lucky coincidence. Burning for revenge, she may have been dismayed to be brought into the service of pacifists. As such, it's little surprise she'd gladly change sides to Stanley the Plaid, who if nothing else is a warmonger on a mission. Something she herself could respect.
As to the scene between Ansom and Wanda so heavily disputed here it seems pretty straight...Ansom wanting revenge for the atrocties Wanda comitted; Wanda, broken, lost and about to die, asking Ansom to kill her. She's acted like a lost woman from the moment Jillian was taken from her. I think her request to be touched by the liers was simply a request to die. Maybe, since she's a Croakamancer, she's as vulnerable to the Pliers as the Uncroaked. Maybe she herself is a as-yet unheard of Uncroaked that retains more willpower and abilities, and lasts longer. All I know is, I think she was asking Ansom to end it.
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Re: "S'lesss than what you took from me"
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Originally Posted by
SteveD
We don't need to. From the little we've seen of Faq it clearly has no cultural connection to Wanda. From all of Wanda's attire we've not seen anything remotely similar to the feudal-japan style garb of Faq. Its even less likely that a city based on philosophy would want to pop a coakmancer then it would a war-like heir. In addition to this there is nothing that connects the word 'coatan' to the orient that I can find. It is a supposedly extinct native American tribe.
Besides, I'm not convinced that Wanda was just referring to Jillian. It would make sense if her reasons for wanting to fight for Stanley were exactly the same as Jillians for Ansom.
But more then anything else my instincts tell me this was about unfolding the backstory a little further and setting out character motivations before jillians return, the full explanation and conclusion of the main plotline.
Actually, there are a few hints to Wanda's native Asiany Faqness. For one, in her room, is an asian-style room parctition divider thing. Which, of course, may be nothing.
Secondly, Wanda's meal that poofed (the only one we see, anyway) when she was speaking with Jillian. It was asian cuisine, complete with chopsticks...which she uses in her hair.
As for Wanda's current appearance, remember, not even Jillian resembles her Faq self. Wanda's change of wardrobe is probably in relation to her being part of GK now.
As for Faq popping a croakamancer and Jillian, well, maybe a city doesn't have that much control over the type of command unit they pop? For example, what if, in order to pop a caster, all they can queue up is "caster" and the type is totally random.