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Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
New Thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Thiel
This thread is a resource for getting information about real life weapons and armor. Normally this thread would be in Friendly Banter, but the concept has always been that the information is for RPG players and DMs so they can use it to make their games better.
A few rules for this thread:
This thread is for asking questions about how weapons and armor really work. As such, it's not going to include game rule statistics. If you have such a question, especially if it stems from an answer or question in this thread, feel free to start a new thread and include a link back to here. If you do ask a rule question here, you'll be asked to move it elsewhere, and then we'll be happy to help out with it.
Any weapon or time period is open for questions. Medieval and ancient warfare questions seem to predominate, but since there are many games set in other periods as well, feel free to ask about any weapon. This includes futuristic ones - but be aware that these will be likely assessed according to their real life feasibility. Thus, phasers, for example, will be talked about in real-world science and physics terms rather than the Star Trek canon. If you want to discuss a fictional weapon from a particular source according to the canonical explanation, please start a new thread for it.
Please try to cite your claims if possible. If you know of a citation for a particular piece of information, please include it. However, everyone should be aware that sometimes even the experts don't agree, so it's quite possible to have two conflicting answers to the same question. This isn't a problem; the asker of the question can examine the information and decide which side to go with. The purpose of the thread is to provide as much information as possible. Debates are fine, but be sure to keep it a friendly debate (even if the experts can't!).
No modern real-world political discussion. As the great Carl von Clausevitz once said, "War is merely the continuation of policy by other means," so poltics and war are heavily intertwined. However, politics are a big hot-button issue and one banned on these boards, so avoid political analysis if at all possible (this thread is primarily about military hardware). There's more leeway on this for anything prior to about 1800, but be very careful with all of it, and anything past 1900 is surely not open for analysis. (I know these are arbitrary dates, but any dates would be, and I feel these ones are reasonable.)
No graphic descriptions. War is violent, dirty, and horrific, and anyone discussing it should be keenly aware of that. However, on this board graphic descriptions of violence (or sexuality) are not allowed, so please avoid them.
Apologies to Thiel for borrowing (and trimming down) his original post.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
endoperez
Before I started reading this thread, seeing "people can swim in mail" could have made me mistake it for plate mail, and swimming in a chain mail shirt that doesn't cover (and weigh) the arms or legs is much easier than swimming in plate.
It's still a good 20kgs worth of metal you're wearing (not including the gambeson underneath) and while it's true that swimming in a mail shirt is easier than swimming in plate, it's like saying it's better to be burnt alive on a bonfire than in a blast furnance.
What is true, is that it's much easier to get out of a mail shirt (get the belt off, then shrug out of it), so someone who's fallen in can get out in under a minute, while the guy in plate is doomed.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
With regard to keeping rust off armour: Would beeswax have been the best option, or would some suitable oils have been available? Alternatively, how well could it last if it got wet without such a coating, but was regularly cleaned and dried?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
It's still a good 20kgs worth of metal you're wearing (not including the gambeson underneath) and while it's true that swimming in a mail shirt is easier than swimming in plate, it's like saying it's better to be burnt alive on a bonfire than in a blast furnance.
What is true, is that it's much easier to get out of a mail shirt (get the belt off, then shrug out of it), so someone who's fallen in can get out in under a minute, while the guy in plate is doomed.
A real mail shirt may weigh as little as 12-13 lbs actually. I think 20 kgs is probably past the upper range even for cap-a-pied mail protection including leggings, full arms, coif and so on, though there is no doubt it would be much harder to swim in all that..
Quote:
With regard to keeping rust off armour: Would beeswax have been the best option, or would some suitable oils have been available? Alternatively, how well could it last if it got wet without such a coating, but was regularly cleaned and dried?
Wax was used for this, and they did also have various oils, including the petroleum based type (bitumen) which then (as now) came mostly from the Middle East, but they used mostly oils which came from plant sources, pine oils and pitch from pine trees up in the Northern part of Europe, various types of olive oil down south near the Med. They had for example a type of olive oil which was inedible and was used for lamp oil exclusively.
They also made use of whale oil, which gradually began to replace plant based oil for lamps and so on starting from the late 15th Century when the Basques started the first really systematic whale harvesting. But whale oil would probably be too stinky to put on armor.
Mail armor was cleaned by putting it in a barrel with sand and shaking it to scrub off the rust. Mail without some kind of coating of wax or oil would get rusty very fast, especially if it got wet. We are used to stainless steel today but any kind of carbon steel (which is all they had back then) gets rusty fast. Salt water is even worse.
There were other ways to preserve the armor, it could be blackened, blued or bronzed to give it a patina that could help keep off the elements, and in Japan mail like other forms of armor was lacquered. There has been some debate if lacquering was ever done in Europe but there is no evidence of it that I know of. Plate harness was quite often blackened in the forge as protection against the elements to help with maintenance, this became a signature look of mercenaries in fact. There are thousands of breast plates and half armors which are blackened.
But the bottom line is, having armor meant doing a lot of maintenance. Swords too, rust is always an issue which has to be dealt with. One fingerprint can start to be a problem in just a day or two if it's not wiped down right away.
G
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
A real mail shirt may weigh as little as 12-13 lbs actually. I think 20 kgs is probably past the upper range even for cap-a-pied mail protection including leggings, full arms, coif and so on, though there is no doubt it would be much harder to swim in all that..
True, it would depend on the size of the links and the pattern.
The mail shirt that I borrowed for re-enactment occasionally was about that weight, although it was 8 or 10 mm links (I think), which probably explains the weight difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
Mail armor was cleaned by putting it in a barrel with sand and shaking it to scrub off the rust.
'Shaking' is one way of putting it. Normally they just seal the barrel and roll it down a hill a couple times. :smalltongue:
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
There has been some debate if lacquering was ever done in Europe but there is no evidence of it that I know of.
There are countless depictions of helmets in bright colours. Those at least were pretty obviously painted or lacquered in some way, even if it was just for the looks it would give significant protections against the elements.
For rigid armours, something similar would be possible even though I can't think of any sources on it actually being done. On the other hand, there are depictions of mails ranging from bright pink through baby blue to black, I'd like to know if they actually did that -and how...
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
A real mail shirt may weigh as little as 12-13 lbs actually. I think 20 kgs is probably past the upper range even for cap-a-pied mail protection including leggings, full arms, coif and so on, though there is no doubt it would be much harder to swim in all that.
The gambeson is going to be worrying as well - cloth generally absorbs a lot of water, and when you've got multiple layers of thick cloth it's bad news all on its own.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GraaEminense
On the other hand, there are depictions of mails ranging from bright pink through baby blue to black, I'd like to know if they actually did that -and how...
While I can't comment on the bright pink, I can maybe shed some light on the baby blue/black. Depending on the type of steel used to make the wire for the links, the colour can vary and depending on how the light catches it, it can appear black to almost blue.
The reason why swords and other types of armour don't do the same, is that they're significantly easier to clean and polish, so you tend to have a more uniform shiny appearance (I wonder if an apprentice being made to polish every link of a mail shirt was the medieval equivalent of hazing the new guy?).
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
What are the strategic disadvantages to wearing gauntlets while fighting hand to hand?
I've worn sparring gloves
(but not metal gauntlets) and found them to be easy enough to grab with and punch with, but intricate finger dexterity was a bit of a challenge, so attacking nerve clusters, or grabbing small items or smooth items was a bit of a challenge, and not really feasible in combat. And anything that required finger and hand sensitivity was right out.
Would you say it's the same, more so, or less so for steel gauntlets?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Might work quite well for boxing, but in that case the opponent would probably want to grapple and then not being able to grab his clothes would probably be a considerable drawback.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
There was a lot of different gauntlet designs, so it's really hard to tell.
Still, inside of the hand wasn't usually even covered with mail, so there was still a lot of dexterity.
Attempting some really precise stuff is hard enough even in woolen glove, so it's obviously out of question, but combat with armor and stuff isn't really about sleight of hand.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
inexorabletruth
What are the strategic disadvantages to wearing gauntlets while fighting hand to hand?
I've worn sparring gloves (but not metal gauntlets) and found them to be easy enough to grab with and punch with, but intricate finger dexterity was a bit of a challenge, so attacking nerve clusters, or grabbing small items or smooth items was a bit of a challenge, and not really feasible in combat. And anything that required finger and hand sensitivity was right out.
Would you say it's the same, more so, or less so for steel gauntlets?
The thicker and the stiffer the gloves, the less manual dexterity you have; plate mittens, for instance, radically reduce the possible hand movements, but, if well designed, should not reduce the ability to grip small rounded objects too much (you do lose out on different finger placement though).On the other hand, even badly fitted work gloves tend to make any precise movements difficult, or even impossible; however the added grip somewhat makes grabbing smooth objects easier.
From my experience, any gloves that are thick enough to give some protection to the fingers reduce your ability to perform precise grabbing techniques (such as grabbing the collar bone or applying pressure on the metacarpus), and mittens make they all but impossible; however, in combat, especially with a trained opponent, those techniques are of little value (and all but useless if he is also wearing armor). Most grappling should still be doable with anything but the heaviest of gloves (talking boxing gloves here), and most precision based finger techniques (eye gouging, ear ripping, stabbing thumbs between the ribs, etc.), should still be easy to do, although may be hampered by the extra thickness.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
And lets not forget that you're carrying a nice piece of very stiff metal at the end of your arms. This should provide all kinds of advantages if facing someone who isn't completely armoured. Say someone wearing an open-faced helmet for instance.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
A lot of grappling can be done without actually grabbing - major joint locks/breaks can be performed by hooking with the wrist and good body positioning. I'm no mediaeval combat expert, but I have little doubt that I could do them in my steel gauntlets just as easily. That doesn't mean it WAS done, but it's certainly possible.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
For RPG purposes, is the following a reasonable division of Medieval European steel weapons into four categories based on penetration?
Picks and War Hammers and some Maces
Maces, War Axes, Pole Axes, and War spears
Morning Stars, Throwing or Wood Axes, Hammers or Clubs, Cut-and-thrust swords, and Hunting (Broad Point) Spears
Slashing Swords
DrewID
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Well, most clubs and maces won't really penetrate anything.... :smallwink:
But assuming it's of 'direct anti armor' qualification, that's seems about alright for RPG needs.
Although particular weapon being one or two handed, and generally overall dimensions, weight and handling will cause huge variation among particular 'type'.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
How much does one's skill effect he damage you accomplish? Based off Tatami mats, it seems the skills guys can cut them in half pretty easily, but those who aren't so skilled have trouble getting more than half-way through (even if they're bigger and stronger).
Is it just a matter of learning basic cutting techniques, then everyone does roughly the same damage? Or would masters get through much more flesh than journeymen of the sword?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Master swordman most certainly can cut way more mat/meat/bamboo, however actual 'damage' in combat will pretty much never depend on some perfect 'take an aim and swing' blows.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Doesn't cutting the Tatami train your cutting technique for fighting?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Conners
Doesn't cutting the Tatami train your cutting technique for fighting?
I'm pretty sure that a lot of tatami was 'sword test' originally.
Anyway, it can most certainly train cutting technique, but 'stay square and cut' ones that's usually performed by enthusiasts just won't happen in combat all too often.
Some more serious cutting in competitions etc. out there looks like it's about some more 'realistic' cutting.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Question about ranged weapons and rate of fire:
In Runequest, which I am playing soon, ranged weapons such as bow, crossbow, and sling all have a "load" quality which tells you how many actions it takes to reload. This is designed to compensate for the fact that melee characters often have to spend actions actively defending themselves or maneuvering, while ranged attackers are more likely to be able to use all their actions on reloading and shooting as fast as they can.
* Bows have load time of 2 actions.
* Crossbows are 4 or 5 actions depending on size
* Slings are 3 actions.
Most characters get 2 to 4 actions per 5-second round, and remember, some of those actions will be spent parrying or dodging incoming attacks.
So, are those load times realistic? The bow and crossbow I'm okay with, but I'm not sure Slings should be slower than a bow. I mean, how long does it really take to grab the other end of the sling and drop a new rock/bullet in the pouch?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Edge of Dreams
So, are those load times realistic? The bow and crossbow I'm okay with, but I'm not sure Slings should be slower than a bow. I mean, how long does it really take to grab the other end of the sling and drop a new rock/bullet in the pouch?
I'd actually say it takes longer than reloading a bow generally does. You have to retrieve the other end, transfer the end to the hand holding the sling (knots and toggles make this take relatively little time, but it's still a step), then put a stone or glande in the pouch properly. Assuming that people are decent at knocking arrows, the sling is a hair slower.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Assuming that those actions are purely 'load', so don't involve aiming and shooting, they can be alright, but still on the way fast side...
Particularly reloading any heavier crossbows, with say, gaffe, goat's foot or similar lever in 5 seconds doesn't seem entirely realistic.
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Hand-spanning a ~125 lb crossbow gives, at best, about 8 shots/min. Using belt hooks or a lever for heavier crossbows is significantly slower. A cranequin or winch for really powerful crossbows (400-800 lb or more) has to be attached, cranked, and detached and stowed, which could take a minute or two.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Skill definitely effects your ability to cut (cause damage with a sword). If you don't know what you are doing you can in some cases barely cause any damage at all, it's pretty easy to slap with the flat, to hit and pull back right away, to where you can't even cut a plastic water bottle (it will just fly away) or a pool noodle. On the other hand if you do know what you are doing, you can
Tatami are pretty hard to cut, and are used (at least today) to improve your cutting skill.
People lining up cuts in youtube videos are not particularly skilled at cutting (myself included) but they are starting to have more realistic cutting contests now in HEMA circles.
Here you can see Mike Edelson doing some Mastercuts on Tatami
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNEBpu8eDsU
and here some quicker ones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4ucq...feature=relmfu
In Japanese and Korean martial arts circles that has been going on already for a long time and they have it down to a science, I think this is as fast as in any real fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHNjKu1Kx9c
Here is a fairly realistic test showing rate of shots for a longbow vs. a relatively low powered (about 180 lbs) crossbow. That is about the lowest grade for military use historically, most would be much stronger and as Spiryt said, require spanning devices.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs
These weapons were used in very different ways though. One of the many differences between them is that infantry crossbowmen were often deployed behind a pavise ('tower shield', more or less, in most RPG's) and two weapons were used, one being spanned by an assistant while the other was aimed by the shooter. The other way was mounted on horseback where they would shoot and move out of distance, more similar to the way pistols were used.
They were also used less often for 'area fire' for lack of a better word (bad term since bows aren't 'fired') though they were also used that way ... bows tended to be used more for 'lofted' shots and crossbows were more specialized at direct shots. The crossbow tends to have a much longer direct-shot range for individual targets, and is more accurate, but the longbow shoots a lot further at small areas (where the rate of shots is much more important)
G
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Thanks for all the bow/crossbow/sling info. Based on that, it looks like the rules I'm working off of may not be perfectly realistic, but they represent the relative advantages and drawbacks of each weapon well enough for my table.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
I have seen a belt hook crossbow reloaded and shot nine times in sixty seconds, so one shot per round would not be too far off what is possible. I would not be inclined to class that as a "heavy" crossbow, though.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Straybow
Hand-spanning a ~125 lb crossbow gives, at best, about 8 shots/min. Using belt hooks or a lever for heavier crossbows is significantly slower. A cranequin or winch for really powerful crossbows (400-800 lb or more) has to be attached, cranked, and detached and stowed, which could take a minute or two.
Minute or more would be mostly very lazy rate, vast majority of bows probably didn't require that much time, with enough effort.
http://crossbows.republika.pl/cr/crannequin2.jpg
Unless sad remains of my German are failing me, this cranequin allows to draw about 1100 pounds over 140mm, in 25 seconds during which hands will cover about 20m, providing mechanical advantage.
So with a lot of effort and dextrous use one shot every 30 seconds would be good guess.
Crossbows of about 400 pounds generally weren't of winch etc. variety, save for hunting ones, where rate of fire didn't matter much anyway.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spiryt
Unless sad remains of my German are failing me, this cranequin allows to draw about 1100 pounds over 14mm, in 25 seconds during which hands will cover about 20m, providing mechanical advantage.
14 turns of the crank pull the string 140mm, which with a crank radius of 230mm results in 14 rotations with a combined radius of about 20m. This takes about 25 seconds, with a two-handed crank about 12 seconds.
The 1100 pounds refer to a different mechanism from a few centuries later, which I think would pull a distance of 350mm. (It says that's the mechanisms length, which seems to consist entirely of the hook with the notches, so probably more like 300mm of draw length for the string.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
From what I understand, the spanning devices break down about as follows:
Light crossbows (yew prod) ('knottelarmbrust')
180-250 lbs draw weight
Spanned by hand
Stirrup crossbows (steel or composite prod) ('stiegelarmbrust')
250 - 350 lbs draw weight
Spanned with stirrup, and / or belt-hook
Stirrup crossbows (steel or composite prod) ('schwer stiegelarmbrust')
350 - 550 lbs draw weight
Spanned with goats-foot, or 'wippe'
'English winder' (steel or composite prod) (' Englischwickler')
500 -1500 lbs
Large, spanned with windlass
'German Winder' / 'Stinger' (' Stetchel / schwer arbalest')
800 - 1200 lbs
Small, spanned with cranequin
The price ranged from about 1/5 of a mark for the knottelarmbrust, to 1/2 mark for the stirrup crossbows, to up to 2 marks for a Stetchel with the cranequin. The latter were used by mounted crossbowmen and by knights, as well as by professional marksmen. The windlass type were long ranged and used mainly for sieges, the windlass being by far the slowest to span.
They also have the ancient Greek Gastrophetes type, but from tests I've seen done the shooters seem to get worn out using these pretty fast.
G
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Thought some folks here might find this interesting, how war-horses and cavalry were trained (late 16th / early 17thC):
http://www.hroarr.com/knightly-arts-...earted-letter/
G
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Good stuff; looks like some over-interpretation as to "commanding the warhorse to attack/run down", but since the videos are no longer working I cannot see how the horse gets all four of its legs up in the air. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Trying to work something out... Are anti-plate similarly effective against cloth armour?
Was wondering if a stiletto would be better or worse for puncturing cloth armour than a more "bladey" dagger. On one hand, the stiletto tranfers all its force on a narrow point--but a more obtuse, sharp-edged point might slice through the cloth better with a stab.
I'm pretty sure a sword performs better against cloth armour than a warhammer does. But I could be wrong.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Galloglaich
Tatami are pretty hard to cut, and are used (at least today) to improve your cutting skill.
There are swords designed specifically for this kind of cutting. I don't think the type of sword has a particular name, but it is straighter, and has a longer and wider blade than a normal katana. A friend of mine teaches Japanese sword fighting, and occasionally would have "cutting parties". I went to one, and the first time swinging this sword, after a few seconds of instructions, I made a nice cut. I proceeded to do two more cuts of the tatami mat, all of them nice and clean. My form wasn't perfect (especially at the end of the swing), nor was I attempting to do anything fancy. The sword was also very well made, and as I said specifically designed for this. My friend had more difficulty when using his standard katana. Interestingly, I did better than a lot of his students, who were probably over-thinking it.
So, sword design is a part of the equation. But for me, tatami mat cutting seemed surprisingly easy! I never got a chance to try my falchion on one though. :-)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
I've read about working transportable passive radar that has been presented, which can detect anythign in the air, regarless of stealth construction.
Does anyone know more about it?
Though it sounds simple enough. Instead of sending out beams or pulses and monitoring their deflection from objects in the air, the system just listens to whatever signals are around in the area and monitors not just echos but also shadows.
And with all the wireless communication including TV and radio, you have lots of background signals to monitor in almost every place, which can not be shut down. Unless you are able to shut down all devices in a large radius, since for example radio waves can travel very far and remain clear.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fusilier
So, sword design is a part of the equation. But for me, tatami mat cutting seemed surprisingly easy! I never got a chance to try my falchion on one though. :-)
Some people just have the knack right out of the gate. I was an 'ok' cutter the first time I cut*, but I used to do landscaping for a living for a while, so I was already pretty used to cutting things with a machete... Some guys in my group cut much better than me their first time, others took months before they could cut anything other than a milk jug (milk jugs are super easy).
I'd liken it to shooting. Some people just get it intuitively the first time, others have a little trouble and have to be shown certain things to do or not do; don't jerk the trigger, remember to breathe (exhale before squeezing the trigger), don't 'limp wrist' (when shooting pistols), hold the stock firmly against your shoulder (for rifles) and so on.
Also there are tatami and then there are tatami, it depends first of all how thick they are - I've seen anywhere from 2" to 7". There is also a difference in the mat itself, or so I've been told. We usually just use regular cheap rice mats, but the 'official' tatami are a little harder, and you may or may not put a dowell or a bamboo pole inside of them which also adds some difficulty. Of course they are supposed to be moist when you cut them too needless to say.
But you don't even need to bother with all that. From what I've seen, if you can consistently cut through a (water filled) 2 liter soda bottle with your blade without knocking the bottom over, you can cut tatami. Then the trick is to cut like that without a long preparation; to do it like you would in a fight, quick with no hesitation or telegraph... that's hard!
G
(*I've got a bit better since then but I'm still basically mediocre. Nothing like as good as Edelson is in those videos.)
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yora
I've read about working transportable passive radar that has been presented, which can detect anythign in the air, regarless of stealth construction.
The only thing I've heard was several years ago and that the American military were supposedly trying to suppress or stop the research as it obsoleted all current design stealth bombers and ships at the time.
Needless to say, take the above rumours with a large pinch of salt or tin foil hat, depending on preference.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
That would be hilariously stupid since they are not the only ones working on it. It seems that there are lots of companies in other countries working on such things and the new mobile truck mounted one was made by EADS.
It would seem a much smarter move to instead halt further development on active radar stealth technology and instead focus more on getting your own passive radar tech up to date. Because other countries working with passive radar will also be working on ideas to foil it. And then you want to be the one with the best passive radar system around.
However, it seems that the long term consequences of field ready passive radar could end up much more complicated and drastic. Not only does it become harder to get to air defense stations without being spotted too soon. It seems that finding those stations heavily relies on aiming at the source of the radar pulses of the active radar devices. And passive radar does not emit any of those, making them almost invisible themselves.
Put a tarp over the truck with the passive radar device and you can't even see it from spy planes or satelites. Also don't try drones, those just get shot down. :smallbiggrin:
In one german article one unspecified expert even was quotes as "say goodbye to air superiority". And that would really change things a lot if you lose close air support.
But that brings to mind the current development of hypersonic drones. It doesn't matter if you are completely visible when you can just outrun everything shot at you.
Or alternatively, you need to use superheavy powered exoskeletons for ground assault. I've been saying that those will be the type of mecha we'll be seing in the next couple of decades. :smallbiggrin:
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Galloglaich:
Quote:
They had for example a type of olive oil which was inedible and was used for lamp oil exclusively.
Do you have any more information on this oil? I've used olive oil in a old style "grease lamp". All I had was a fairly high quality dipping oil, but it worked very well. The wick I used was a bit thick, it took about thirty seconds to get it started burning, but once started it burned very well.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
I would assume it tasted awful but burned better than the kitchen variants.
You could burn the kitchen oil and you most probably could digest the lamp oil.
Just like you can drink and will get drunk from industrial cleaning ethanol.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
It's called Bi Static radar, and it uses several receivers, and compares the background "noise" "take" from each and can then produces tracking data with Doppler effects.
It's not fool proof, but the advantage that Bi Static radar has over standard radar installations is that you don't have to pour thousands of watts into the air making yourself a target for anti radiation missiles (HARMs, et al). The reason why it is more effective against stealth designs than standard radar is that since you aren't sending and receiving on reciprocal tracks, the stealth aircraft cannot present a chosen view to the radar (Stealth Aircraft are not equally stealthy in all directions).
However without the addition of a powerful transmitter as a third set, it's not very precise, can't be used for missile guidance, and can be foiled in all the same ways any large Doppler set can be, and we've been training to fight Doppler radar equipped foes for decades, so it's not like there isn't doctrine available to combat folks so equipped already.
Both the US and the Czech Republic have bi static radars or radars with bi static capability already in production, and the Czechs, in particular, are trying to sell them to everyone. The American Bi Static radars are designed to work with a third set with a powerful transmitter instead of simple background noise, generally using an AWACs or J-STAR for the transmitter set, but also sometimes a AGEIS ship.
Other "anti-stealth" radar technologies include high powered digital VHF radars, the lower frequency means that a VHF radar is less affected by the use of Radar Absorbing materials, and the digital signal processing means that the set will do a better job eliminating the signal ghosts that are so prevalent with VHF radar sets. Biggest issue with them is that they are still much easier to jam than a UHF or Microwave band set.
The Bi Static radars are a big threat not because they have a higher likelihood of detecting reduced radar cross section aircraft, but because they can provide raid warning without the need to be broadcasting with a powerful transmitter, and that makes them much more difficult to target than a traditional radar set.
Edit to add, the Bi Static capability of certain American radars has been around for decades. It's Bi Static radar able to run simply on background noise that's fairly new.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yora
Just like you can drink and will get drunk from industrial cleaning ethanol.
Theoretically you could, but then the additives they add to make it unfit for human consumption will either cause you to vomit it all up or put you into hospital/the morgue.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
How much does wood stop bullets? Both pistols, rifles, and machine guns and of course depending on type and thickness of the wood.
After all, wood can take a lot of deformation before splintering and even then there's still the fibre structure holding everything together. I think it might actually take bullet impacts very well.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yora
How much does wood stop bullets? Both pistols, rifles, and machine guns and of course depending on type and thickness of the wood.
After all, wood can take a lot of deformation before splintering and even then there's still the fibre structure holding everything together. I think it might actually take bullet impacts very well.
I'm pretty sure that one can find some rough penetration tables for popular bullets in the Internet, such as
here
Generally, wood will vary so much depending on species, particular tree/shrub, it's part, moisture, angle of impact (with grain? against it?) etc. that it's hard to tell.
Soft, light wood like dry pine is for example pretty poor at stopping even airgun lead pellets, and even 'stocky' pistol 9mm will carve a path in it easily AFAIR.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brother Oni
Theoretically you could, but then the additives they add to make it unfit for human consumption will either cause you to vomit it all up or put you into hospital/the morgue.
Well, in the "civilized world" they add stuff to make it unfit for consumption. In the Soviet Union, industrial alcohol was a common piece of contraband and bartering item.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daosus
Well, in the "civilized world" they add stuff to make it unfit for consumption. In the Soviet Union, industrial alcohol was a common piece of contraband and bartering item.
I can't speak for the manufacturing practices in the old Soviet Union, but over here, stuff is added so that they can avoid it being classed as an 'alcoholic beverage' and avoid the tax on it.
For comparison, a 2.5L bottle of ~95% pure ethanol for laboratory use costs about 30UKP, with duty, it's closer to 200UKP. It also doesn't have any additives (otherwise it couldn't be that pure), but industrial ethanol for cleaning purposes doesn't have that restriction.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Maximilian Armor, aka "fluted". Why are there ridges in the armor? what do they serve?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Mostly for aesthetics, probably.
Substantial fluting could give more rigid surface for the same weight, I guess, if it was required. Actually 'wrinkled' surface wouldn't get damaged as easily by heavy impacts, but I'm not sure if this effect was really visible in most armor pieces.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
My understanding was that the 'fluting' (ridges) were to make it stronger / lighter. A lot of that Maximillian harness, the stuff made in Augsburg and Innsbruck anyway, was very thin tempered steel (and so very light, as armor goes), and I'd been given to understand that the fluting was part of it. But I never precisely understood how that works.
G
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TimeWizard
Maximilian Armor, aka "fluted". Why are there ridges in the armor? what do they serve?
Flutes increase resistance to bending (ie, impact weapons) by increasing the second moment of inertia on the cross section. This can be done without adding much weight.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yora
How much does wood stop bullets? Both pistols, rifles, and machine guns and of course depending on type and thickness of the wood.
After all, wood can take a lot of deformation before splintering and even then there's still the fibre structure holding everything together. I think it might actually take bullet impacts very well.
I wouldn't know when dealing with trees and such, but The Box of Truth did a penetration test with 3/4" pine boards in which they were pretty small defense.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daosus
Flutes increase resistance to bending (ie, impact weapons) by increasing the second moment of inertia on the cross section. This can be done without adding much weight.
Similar in effect to the middle layer of corrugated cardboard.
DrewID
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Hey all,
My boss has an old sword just laying around his office. He doesn't know anything about it, other than that it's been in his family forever and his forebears traveled quite a bit. He said it was ok if I asked around, so I was curious what you guys could tell me as far as age, origins, etc. Overall length is somewhere around 28", blade is about 22". Pictures below.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
how hard is it to throw a weapon (e.g. grenade, throwing knife) while prone?
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spiryt
Minute or more would be mostly very lazy rate, vast majority of bows probably didn't require that much time, with enough effort.
http://crossbows.republika.pl/cr/crannequin2.jpg
Unless sad remains of my German are failing me, this cranequin allows to draw about 1100 pounds over 140mm, in 25 seconds during which hands will cover about 20m, providing mechanical advantage.
So with a lot of effort and dextrous use one shot every 30 seconds would be good guess.
Crossbows of about 400 pounds generally weren't of winch etc. variety, save for hunting ones, where rate of fire didn't matter much anyway.
Yes, I seem to be off on draw by a factor of two. Cranking the cranquin is 25 seconds, but you've neglected the time of retrieving the device, attaching it to the stock, setting the catch, and then carefully detaching the device from the crossbow (no "safety" switch to prevent accidental release) and stowing it (you don't just drop it to the ground, where dirt can get in the gears and speed corrosion).
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zlefin
how hard is it to throw a weapon (e.g. grenade, throwing knife) while prone?
Not very easy. I can't speak to a throwing knife, but grenades are significantly heavier than most people realize who have not handled one. Prone is not really an ideal position to make throwing motions since you can only use the arm to throw, not the whole body.
With a grenade, you overcome some of that by lobbing it up into the air in a high arc. This also has the side benefit of getting it over obstacles and giving the fuse time to burn.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Quote:
Originally Posted by
headwarpage
Hey all,
My boss has an old sword just laying around his office. He doesn't know anything about it, other than that it's been in his family forever and his forebears traveled quite a bit. He said it was ok if I asked around, so I was curious what you guys could tell me as far as age, origins, etc. Overall length is somewhere around 28", blade is about 22". Pictures below.
Funny you mention this know. I just learned about this kind of sword some weeks ago.
I am pretty sure it's a Yatagan, the base of the grip makes it quite distinctive and the blade shape also matches. Size seems about average. Most yatagans were made from the 1750s to the 1850s in Turkey, but it could be older or more recent, or from a completely different place.
The insciption is probably arabic, maybe it has some useful information as well. It looks somewhat unusual though, but I can't read any form of arabic.
Given the amount of decoration, it's probably a private item and not mass produced for the military. But from a first glance, it still looks completely functional. The decorations look kind of painted on on the photos, so my guess would be that it was not a terribly expensive custom made sword for a rich person. But I don't know anything about price ranges for swords in the otoman empire, so it's a total guess. Though I would assume it's for someone who can afford a more expensive sword that the common man, but still does not have a bottomless purse.
I think the best way to learn more would be find someone who can descipher the inscription on the blade.
Also, it should be cleaned of the rust. It will only get worse if left in this state.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Ah, Yora beat me to it. That is a Yatagan. Its the starting sword in Assassins Creed Revelations too, if you wanted to see it in action.
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Re: Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XI
Thanks for the info. It's a cool looking sword, hopefully he'll clean it up a bit.