Step into Star Wars: A 3.5 D&D Player's Guide to Star Wars Saga Edition

The following is a quick resource document intended for use with the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game designed by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Richard Baker, and Peter Adkison, using updated material from the v.3.5 revision, henceforth referred to in this document as 'D&D 3.5'. It is intended to familiarize a new player to the STAR WARS SAGA EDITION rules by highlighting differences between the rules used there with the rules present in the publicly available System Resource Document for D&D 3.5. This document contains no content from the STAR WARS SAGA EDITION game, and is not sufficient for play on its own.

If this document is toeing a line, I'll remove it; however, virtually all of this information is commonly available on the Gleemax forums themselves, and is insufficient for play without a Core Rulebook. It is intended to quickly familiarize a new player who is experienced with the d20 system.

The Basics

• Ability Score Generation methods remain identical
• The human species' benefits are analogous to their benefits in the D&D 3.5E rules, adjusting for different mechanics.
• Starting languages functions identically, although choice of language varies.
• There are no rules for alignment.
• When you would normally be granted a +1 untyped bonus to an ability score due to your character level, you are also granted a second +1 to be placed on a second ability score of your choice.

Classes

• Basic class structure is broken down into 'feats' and 'talents' at alternating levels. Talents work like class-specific feats, but tend to be more powerful and have more active effects, while feats relate to mundane combat or constant benefits more often.
• You gain three times your hit dice (maximized, adding constitution bonus last and only once) as HP at first level. At subsequent levels, you roll or take average as in D&D 3.5.
• Prestige classes remain, though they do not have their own skill lists.
• Multiclass characters only gain one 'starting feat' (including proficiencies) from each basic class that they multiclass into. They must qualify for this feat.
• Multiclass characters may take the highest granted class bonus on any individual defense statistic.
• Multiclass characters do not gain or lose skills; however, they add additional skills to their list of valid skills to be trained via feats.
• There is no penalty on the number of classes which you may take.

Skills

• Skill points are abolished. A skill may be trained and gain a +5 bonus, or focused - with a feat - and gain an additional +5 bonus. You add half your character level (termed 'heroic level') to all skill rolls.
• The skills Acrobatics, Climb, Deception, Endurance, Gather Information, Initiative, Jump, Knowledge, Mechanics, Perception, Persuasion, Pilot, Ride, Stealth, Survival, Swim, Treat Injury, Use Computer and Use the Force comprise all of the known skills.

Feats

• Many basic feats return from the D&D 3.5 Core Rules unchanged, or with little change.

Equipment

• There are no shields.
• There is also no spoon.
• You don't talk about Fight Club.
• Magic items do not exist; the methods of improving items are rare and expensive, and many unenhanced armors can realistically remain out of a character's reach for many levels.
• This game does not have an expected Wealth By Level system.
• Armor grants a bonus to Fortitude Defense and Reflex Defense which varies depending on the armor. The bonus to Fortitude Defense stacks; the armor's Reflex Defense bonus negates your heroic level bonus to Reflex Defense without talents.

Combat

• There is no such thing as an iterative attack. With heavy feat investment, you can get a large, but highly inaccurate, number of attacks a round. Emphasis is placed on movement, so one attack a round is common.
• Damage rolls from anything requiring an attack roll add one-half your heroic level.
• Armor class has been abolished.
• Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Saves have been replaced by Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Defenses. These function similarly, merely making the save mechanic resemble attacks. Reflex defense takes the place of Armor Class. You determine your Defense by adding 10 + the relevant ability score modifier, the flat bonus granted by your class at first level, and your character level.
• Your Fortitude Defense is rarely invoked directly; however, there is a statistic directly tied to it called the Damage Threshold. When a single attack damages you by this number or greater, you move one step down the condition track. This movement will also decrease your damage threshold.
• The Condition Track. Every time you move one step down this track, you take penalties to your defenses and essentially anything you roll a d20 for. The values described below are noncumulative:
  • Step 1: -1
  • Step 2: -2
  • Step 3: -5
  • Step 4: -10, Half Movement Speed
  • Step 5: Unconscious
  
  Several talents and abilities can hasten, slow, or reverse movement along the condition track. Spending three swift actions within consecutive rounds will bring you back up one step. If you take damage in excess of your damage threshold that is also greater than your remaining HP, you die.
• Once per day after being reduced to half-health or less, as a swift action you can use a second wind; this will restore a large fragment of your hit points.
• The grapple mechanic cannot be invoked without feats. It is much simplified.
• The disarm mechanic ignores weapon size.
• The sunder mechanic does not exist.
• The trip mechanic is subsumed into grapple.
• Most bonuses or penalties (especially due to size) in the system are of the variation 1, 2, 5, 10, 10, 10, 10 or 5, 10, 15, 20, 20, 20, 20 rather than 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 or 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24.
• A full-round action is comprised of a swift, move, and standard action.
• You may downgrade any move action into a swift action.
• There are no five-foot steps. One square movement, however, does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
• There is no critical hit confirmation roll.
• Ranged weapons and Force Powers in most circumstances do not provoke attacks of opportunity; smaller ranged weapons can also make attacks of opportunity at melee range.

Action Points

• They're called Force Points here, and extensively integrated into the system. All uses listed here beyond rolling to improve a d20 result are not allowed.
• There's a super version of these called Destiny Points; they are not utilized in all games, and exist side by side with Force Points.

Force Powers

• Force Powers function very similar to Tome of Battle maneuvers, for those familiar with that system; each one can be used once in an encounter, normally. On a roll of natural 20 when using a Force Power, you automatically regain all Force Powers in your suite. Other than that, your typical way of regaining Force Powers is with a minute's rest.
• You receive a number of Force Powers (1+Wis) upon taking a repeatable feat called Force Training, rather than taking levels in a class, and can select the same Force Power multiple times to use it multiple times within the same encounter.

Couple of points:

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Originally Posted by AstralFire

• You gain four times your hit dice (maximized, adding constitution bonus last and only once) as HP at first level. At subsequent levels, you roll or take average as in D&D 3.5.

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3x actually.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AstralFire

• Advanced classes are analogous to prestige classes, though they do not have their own skill lists.

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Still called prestige classes (some harder to access than others), not sure where "advanced classes" comes from.

Nice catch, thanks. And sorry, that was d20 modern on the brain. @_@

Any other input?

Force Training feat should be fine to mention since many of these things come up on the official boards. Just avoid mentioning mechanics in depth such as full racial builds and such.

The rest seems accurate although if you want people to not talk about Fight Club it should get included in Skills (Persuasion), possibly with a reference in the combat section.


For the record to all those who may be reading: despite some similarities in the skill system to 4e, SAGA's is distinctive in that it does not suck.

Expanded that, and added the fact that you get half your heroic level in damage to attacks.

I wish they'd included something like this in the book itself. @_@

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Originally Posted by Lert, A.

For the record to all those who may be reading: despite some similarities in the skill system to 4e, SAGA's is distinctive in that it does not suck.

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How is it different exactly?

For the record I don't particularly think that 4e's skill system sucks. But you mention that they are different and I would like to know exactly how?

While I like 4E's skill system and would like to note that I will hurt people* if this becomes an edition war thread, it's probably because it's a little harder (though still very possible) to cross specialize your skills, individual skills do tend to do more, and the way DCs are set is very different.

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Originally Posted by AstralFire

While I like 4E's skill system and would like to note that I will hurt people* if this becomes an edition war thread, it's probably because it's a little harder (though still very possible) to cross specialize your skills, individual skills do tend to do more, and the way DCs are set is very different.

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I see, and what does the skill "Initiative" do exactly? Is initiative (the sort I roll for) based off of skill checks or something or is it still Dex based?

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Originally Posted by Asbestos

I see, and what does the skill "Initiative" do exactly? Is initiative (the sort I roll for) based off of skill checks or something or is it still Dex based?

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It's a Dex based skill. This was done to prevent the issue of a level 20 Sith Lord having a decent chance of being outrolled by R2-D2 on initiative.

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Originally Posted by AstralFire

While I like 4E's skill system and would like to note that I will hurt people* if this becomes an edition war thread, it's probably because it's a little harder (though still very possible) to cross specialize your skills, individual skills do tend to do more, and the way DCs are set is very different.

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I imagine that it's also because classes are sort of hovering halfway between the way that 3.x classes worked and the way that 4.0 classes work, tending towards 3.x - that is, every basic class gets Talents every other level and Feats on the remaining ones, while prestige classes get class features the way that 3.x classes do, instead of there being At-Will/Encounter/Daily/Utility powers, and you multiclass basically the way that 3.x handles multiclassing, races have bonuses and penalties that cancel out to zero, instead of having bonuses above base traits, languages are based on your Intelligence modifier, no healing surges or the like, and levels run to 20 instead of 30, with no tiers.

On the flip side, you choose what order you gain Talents in, which is closer to 4e than 3e, you apply skill bonuses the way that 4e does it, you gain your class bonuses to defenses at Level 1 instead of gradually.

Actually, you do gain Second Wind. It's just much rarer. -goes to edit in brief description of Second Wind.-

I do reiterate my request/threat to sing the song that ends the earth should this thread become derailed towards this particular subject, however.

Important note for the combat section - in Saga diagonal movement costs 2 squares (making diagonal movement pointless, for the most part).

I personally despise this rule and would prefer either 3.5's or 4th's handling of diagonal movement, but it is the default rule for Saga.

Also, while there is no action called "Five-foot step," moving only one square does not provoke an AoO. Force powers and ranged attacks do not provoke AoO's either, which many D&D players would probably think they would, and you can make AoO's with pistols and carbines, which again is a bit different than D&D.

Thanks, very cool, makes reading the core rulebook simpler.

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Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Saves have been replaced by Fortitude, Reflex, and Will Defenses. These function similarly, merely making the save mechanic resemble attacks. Reflex defense takes the place of Armor Class. You determine your Defense by adding 10 + the relevant ability score modifier, the flat bonus granted by your class at first level, and your character level.

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It's not half your levels, like in 4e? I read that wrong, then.

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Originally Posted by ColdSepp

Thanks, very cool, makes reading the core rulebook simpler.


It's not half your levels, like in 4e? I read that wrong, then.

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Skills and damage are 1/2 level, defenses are full level. It's because the Star Wars 'verse doesn't have magic items with enhancement bonuses :smallwink:

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Originally Posted by Grynning

Skills and damage are 1/2 level, defenses are full level. It's because the Star Wars 'verse doesn't have magic items with enhancement bonuses :smallwink:

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Ah, magic items, right. Thanks, I should have realized that... now I want to play.... :smallbiggrin:

Updated the segment on combat a bit. Trying to avoid being too specific here. Thanks for reminding me of the bit on ranged AoOs, Gryn - need to update the info in Avatar: Saga Edition accordingly.

Glad I could help, Cold, and thank you. :D

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Originally Posted by Asbestos

How is it different exactly?

For the record I don't particularly think that 4e's skill system sucks. But you mention that they are different and I would like to know exactly how?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AstralFire

While I like 4E's skill system and would like to note that I will hurt people* if this becomes an edition war thread, it's probably because it's a little harder (though still very possible) to cross specialize your skills, individual skills do tend to do more, and the way DCs are set is very different.

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This and a lack of skill challenges which most people find too complicated (or sometimes broken).

We now return to our regularly scheduled SAGA....

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Originally Posted by Grynning

Skills and damage are 1/2 level, defenses are full level. It's because the Star Wars 'verse doesn't have magic items with enhancement bonuses :smallwink:

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Now, see, the odd thing is that Weapon Focus and other sources of stacking +1 bonuses to attack become more useful, as only Jedi, Soldier, and full BAB PrCs keep up with defenses.

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Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Now, see, the odd thing is that Weapon Focus and other sources of stacking +1 bonuses to attack become more useful, as only Jedi, Soldier, and full BAB PrCs keep up with defenses.

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I suspect this is because, at high levels, it is still possible to get rounds where you unload a flurry of firepower (or with lightsaber powers/melee duelist class, pounces) which are not that inaccurate if you've put enough work into them.

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Originally Posted by Mando Knight

Now, see, the odd thing is that Weapon Focus and other sources of stacking +1 bonuses to attack become more useful, as only Jedi, Soldier, and full BAB PrCs keep up with defenses.

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SW Saga is not exactly designed for the PC's to always be fighting things of their level - like the movies, it's the most fun when you're taking on lots of Stormtroopers (or Battle Droids, or w/e). Also, a 3/4 BAB character still has a decent chance of hitting someone of their level with a blaster shot, and blasters are lethal enough in the system that whoever they do hit will feel it.

Battles against BBEG type NPC's (especially force users) have to be pretty well thought out on the part of GM, because there is a very precarious middle ground between the too hard and too easy categories. My Mandalorian Jedi character (hey...that sounds familiar :smalltongue:) mopped the floor with a Crusader that our GM had designed to be a really hard one on one fight for him, while a fight with a pair of Gungans proved much harder than we thought (they are tougher than they look apparently).

Update made to thread regarding critical hits and some clarification on ranged AoOs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AstralFire

Nice catch, thanks. And sorry, that was d20 modern on the brain. @_@

Any other input?

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What about weapons an armor? At least give us the damage/cost/cost for bullets of some of the easier-to-get weapons/armor

Otherwise, thanks. I can now get into basic Star Wars Saga RPing :)

Sheriff: Thread necromancy.