Naval combat.

So, I've got an idea for a campaign that will involve a fair deal of naval material. Home base is a ship, there will be lots of traveling between places on it, and very likely ship to ship combat.

There has been some discussions in the past, but I don't recall definitive answers being found, some ideas to convert being thrown out.

So, if you lot are willing, I'd like to chisel out some rules for a naval heavy game. I've found a handful of feats and items that would become useful, but there is very little vehicular material I could find in the compendium.


Specifics I'm looking for. Navigation, in and out of combat. Which leads obviously to combat, either as skill checks or some clever power usage. Ideas for really giving the boat character, and a home for the crew. I'm planning on it be a pure PC run ship, with the only possible exception being a NPC pilot. Tracking damage to components is not something I've run across in 4E, and while I don't want to get super representational with things, something more crunchy than pure plot would be nice.

And for what it's worth, it's not a ship on water. Between Firefly and SW Rebels I've got a hankering to run a similar themed campaign in a homebrewed 'verse of mine, and I'd appreciate y'all's in getting my boat ready.

Ideas for giving the boat character? Read the Liveship Trader trilogy by Robin Hobb.

What kind of specifics do you need for the navigation? Like what skills to use? Probably primarily: Nature (Even for outer space; why change it? And I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar.)
Perception (See, I married me a powerful ugly creature.)
Religion (This landing is gonna get pretty interesting. / Define "interesting". / Oh god, oh god, we're all gonna die?)
Depending on the kind of ship, I suppose Arcana might be applicable.

I do like the idea of a generic "pilot" for the ship. You don't want one player to be stuck piloting while the others are in combat. Now, I'm not saying he should be a good pilot. On the contrary - make him adequate. If the players want to do some fancy maneuverin' or sneakin' about (with a ship! haha), its better to have one of the players do it.

I wouldn't really get into actual "damage" to components. Not to any real extent, anyway. I'd probably do a KISS method. Canons or their equivalent do 1 point of damage on a hit to a component. A crit does 2. A component has 2-5 hit points. Normal powers will probably have little to no effect on most components. (Using a fireball to damage the hull of a ship? Won't really do much.) Though I suppose intent to hurt it can change things, but then I'd do more of a skill check rather than the attack itself. A normal fireball won't damage a hull, but one detonated at just the right spot might (arcana check).

SPACEship? Hoo. So the biggest question, to my mind, is "How will the characters use their 4e combat abilities if there are two enclosed hulls and an airless frozen void between them and the enemy?" If you don't address that, you'll need to consider other systems. I suspect that it'd quickly become immersion-breaking to continually present combat-possible scenarios outside both ships on land. I mean, if there's a shipboard weapon at all, the PCs would be inclined to use that to kite landbound enemies, right? With ships on water in a world without cannons (or with very slow-reload cannons), it's relatively easy for the DM to get the two vehicles close enough together that 4e creatures can use their normal abilities.

Also, unless you're talking about "away team" scenarios, it's not likely that the PCs will face more than one encounter per day. Dailies become a lot more potent and Essentials character a lot weaker, if you don't do something to alter the recharge rate.

Other things to think about ... the navigator, pilot, repair/tech personnel, owner and captain (not necessarily same person, like producer and director for a film) all have special status on a ship, and it being a closed environment, that's going to have social impact during play. If there are other people aboard to do the gruntwork or some of those jobs, the titled PCs will have authority and responsibility in varying amounts. If it's just PCs, there's still the differential status of the captain among them.

You can make new skills for the PCs to use. In the campaign I'm developing, for example, I've put in Spirits and Warfare skills, the former because the spirit world is much more complete and active than in 4e standard, the latter because the entire world is besieged and it's evocative enough to stand alone. Make it clear which classes have each thing as class skills, write a blurb about what you can do with the skill itself, and make several skill powers for each. This is a way to focus on the shippy type abilities if you have, say, Ethergation and Shipbuilding skills.

I'm trying to see wheter you can do such a thing with WWI-era ships, due to some ideas on the second episode of the campaign I'll be DM'ing soon.

A little while ago I wrote up starship rules for a game I was running. Here is the link if you are interested. My maneuver rules were possibly a little complicated, depending on the tactical thinking of you and your players they may or may not be appropriate.

I would say that if a crew doesn't have certain skills you can supply a droid or NPC to fill that skill but otherwise let the players run with that skill.
Pilot = Dex
Weapons = Allow training or Dex
Engineering = Int/Wis (Arcana?) and so on.

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Originally Posted by Tegu8788

And for what it's worth, it's not a ship on water. Between Firefly and SW Rebels I've got a hankering to run a similar themed campaign in a homebrewed 'verse of mine, and I'd appreciate y'all's in getting my boat ready.

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I've played campaigns that involved or briefly included a ship in the Elemental Chaos or Astral Sea, if that's the kind of thing you're thinking about.

Just let me get this out of the way: Skill Challenges, Joel, Skill Challenges


The problem with an RPG is making something that'd be exciting in a story, book or movie interesting in the context of a game played with dice around a table.

"What's the DC to fly through the asteroid field?"
"Uh, 37."
"Ok... crap, 28..."
"Well, you hit an asteroid, you're all dead."
"Did I say 28, I meant 38."
"Oh, OK, you're through then."

Not that interesting. Skill Challenges try to tease that one skill check out into a series that gets everyone involved, but unless you give the players some real decisions to make and get some good descriptions of success/failure going, it won't be that much more interesting.

So, it's mostly on you. A complete set of 'naval combat' rules is just going to box you in. Rather, design each challenge or encounter on it's own. Combine a battle - and, in fantasy, ship-to-ship-combat could be mostly boarding actions, even is 'space' - with complexity-1 SCs to deal with damage inflicted, pull off maneuvers or ruses or whatever, or whatever bit of not-strictly-fighting action you can think of to add in.

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Originally Posted by Tegu8788

Specifics I'm looking for. Navigation, in and out of combat. Which leads obviously to combat, either as skill checks or some clever power usage. Ideas for really giving the boat character, and a home for the crew. I'm planning on it be a pure PC run ship, with the only possible exception being a NPC pilot. Tracking damage to components is not something I've run across in 4E, and while I don't want to get super representational with things, something more crunchy than pure plot would be nice.

And for what it's worth, it's not a ship on water. Between Firefly and SW Rebels I've got a hankering to run a similar themed campaign in a homebrewed 'verse of mine, and I'd appreciate y'all's in getting my boat ready.

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1) Players can only fight on a ship so many times before it gets boring. Don't design your campaign with the intention of having it happen frequently.

2) If this is on an airship, things are reasonably easy. If you're using something like Spelljammer's phlogiston, you need to work out exactly how it functions ahead of time

3) A ship run purely by PCs will either be very small, or very poorly run, or function in a way that's not like a normal ship (for example, you only need a mage to run the ship, since the whole thing is animated by magic). Running even a modest sailing ship requires dozens of crew. Remember, you don't just need enough people to run the ship at one time, you need enough to stand continuous watches, take over when other crewmembers are killed or sick or desert, fire the guns and repel boarders at the same time, and so forth. Historically, large ships like Santissima Trinidad could have up to a thousand crew or more. If you're using realistic cannon, it takes a huge number of men to man a broadside. A 36 lb cannon took 14 crew to operate practically, plus a couple of powder boys.

4) Navigation can either be very complex or very simple. You should aim for simple. Recreating realistic navigation in the game will be a gigantic pain in the butt.

5) If you want to go really in depth, go and find a game system like Close Action or Trireme and steal adapt it for your purposes

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Originally Posted by Geoff

Skill Challenges, Joel, Skill Challenges

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This. And the rest. Watch Master and Commander, for example, and think about which parts would be fun to play through and which wouldn't. One to check out would be the part where...

Spoiler

Show

they have to cut loose a broken mast and lose the beloved younger officer with it

I currently run a game on board a ship on the forum. The PCs do not have to do tedious things like assigns all crew to watches, make sure the sails are trimmed correctly, and so forth. That's what the rest of the crew is there for, after all.

I would expect the PCs aren't going to be doing much adventuring on the boat, and that you're using it primarily as a method of getting them from Ice Chasm Place to Jungle Temple Land to Seedy City Ville. Because a boat which is small enough for a few PCs to crew it, isn't going to have much room for adventure on board, unless you take a few paying passengers and it always turns out one is a spy / changeling / homicidal loon / etc.

If you want something like "the Millenium Falcon vs TIE fighters" rather than "galleys or ships of the line, with hundreds of crew", then assign a few crew positions, maybe Gunnery, Shields, Engineering, Pilot, Damage Control. Add those skills to the game. A success by Engineering might buff Gunnery, Shields, or the Pilot's maneuvering speed--but someone has to choose where it's going. Gunnery might have to decide whether to shoot at the enemy ship or at incoming missiles. Shields might need to decide whether to divide power among all six shields evenly, or to strengthen some at the expense of others. The Pilot will have to decide how much power to put to evasive maneuvers and how much should go for straight speed. That way each person has something to do, and it requires decisions rather than just "Roll a d20. Roll a d20. Roll a d20. Roll a d20. Roll a d20. Roll a d20. Okay,you win."

Give the boat maybe 16 HP in each section (ie Gunnery, Shields etc) and have each hit apply d6 to its target area. Each section takes a penalty when reduced to 50% of HP.

With the setup Laserlight is describing, individual characters could take skill powers and/or feats to grant the ship temp hit points (via Shields), a higher hp max (Mechanics/Engineering), bonuses against various attack types (Shields/Pilot/Electronics/Mechanics/Engineering) and so forth. Ships would also have their own sensor arrays, and could perhaps get concealment from other ships' sensors through signal warfare or a "stealth field".

The Shadowrun equipment gamebooks are one source of inspiration. Loath as I am to admit it now, so are Piers Anthony's Bio of a Space Tyrant series and Chaining the Lady.

This is reenforcing some things I was thinking about, mostly using skill challenges. I am leaning more towards skirmishes with ship to ship combat, with the occasional boarding actions. If it goes galley to galley shooting style, that's likely time to retreat.

In terms of skills, what do people thing of as either good analogues or replacements. I do plan on it being mostly magic based, a small magic circle that a Mage can use to control everything. Obviously, the more working, the more focus each aspect (sensors, shields, navigation) gets. Arcana becomes very strong in that case, but I'd like it if anyone could be useful. If the Int 8 Fighter wants to focus on the shielding, he should be able to make a difference by making active choices.

I really like treating shields as THPs. I do want to include some combat options, especially for weapons. I was thinking if a cannon/engine/hull is bloodied it no longer works but could be repaired during a long rest. If it goes to zero, that part is totaled. Any thoughts on targeting a gun vs the entire vessel in terms of to-hit? Or just make a few different types, balancing accuracy with damage and heavier armor on certain parts? Super-minion style, two hit kill?

I am thinking ships will mostly be for travel, but I like to plan ahead. If trips are too short that does unbalance 4E and Essentials classes, but is that as big a concern as I'm thinking?

I've got some good materials to look through for characterization. I know real shops take lots of hands, I sail occasionally and even my tiny ship takes three people to function. Magic boat fixes a lot of this, but I do still want several prime roles. The idea of giving the players the chance to be captain is certainly nice, especially since if I'm the captain that just screams railroading. Do people think that's wise, or should they be hired hands, with an off-ship boss or democracy about what jobs they take?

I agree that strict rules aren't fun, but some guidelines on what people besides me thinks is fun is useful. Keep throwing out ideas, I am reading everything. And fun fact, asteroid fields are really easy to fly through, because of the huge amount of empty space between rocks. A freshly exploded planet would be tough, but an average asteroid field is simple.

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Originally Posted by Tegu8788

And fun fact, asteroid fields are really easy to fly through, because of the huge amount of empty space between rocks.

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If you're playing on a 4ft x 6ft table, you can simulate an asteroid belt by rolling d100. If you roll 01-99, there is no asteroid. On a roll of 00, drop a single grain of sand somewhere on the table.

It's going to be on here, I find you guys more fun than the folks around me. So far, every live game I've run has included stealing faces and making a bag from an organ of a sentient to carry stuff.

Maybe I need to stop allowing evil characters.

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Originally Posted by Tegu8788

Maybe I need to stop allowing evil characters.

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That seems best, if separation of (formerly?) living creatures into meatybits is any guideline.

You might also want to block evil players. Geez.

Nick the rules from Star Wars Saga.

(Didn't read everybody's responses. Sorry if there's overlap.)

I think what'd be neat would having "Ship Powers" that the crew can work together to use, or use on their own. These powers could confer status effects that last until fixed.

Lets say you use "Chain Shot" (two balls connected by a chain). It'll do damage to the ship, specifically to the mast on a crit, and perhaps to crew members nearby. If you do crit and hit the mast, the ship is considered immobilized until fixed.

Consider facing and size, as well. If you are using cannons, wailing onto the back of the ship will destroy the rudder. Attacking the side of the ship (broadside), will do the most structural damage, but also leaves you open to take a lot of damage. Attacking the front doesn't do much damage, and leaves you open for ramming, which can just tear you open.

Also, wind has to be a factor. If you're using magic, that can be mitigated, but there should be bonuses to sailing favorably.

As far as making the boat a home, have the players design it. Let them decide if there are rooms for each, or maybe they share a captain's quarters. Make them use their time and spoils to fix the boat. When most landlubbers only worry about rations and sleeping, they have to delegate who is going to swab and tar, who is going to scrape barnacles, who is on watch.

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Originally Posted by Burley

(Didn't read everybody's responses. Sorry if there's overlap.)

Lets say you use "Chain Shot" (two balls connected by a chain). It'll do damage to the ship, specifically to the mast on a crit, and perhaps to crew members nearby. If you do crit and hit the mast, the ship is considered immobilized until fixed.

Consider facing and size, as well. If you are using cannons, wailing onto the back of the ship will destroy the rudder. Attacking the side of the ship (broadside), will do the most structural damage, but also leaves you open to take a lot of damage. Attacking the front doesn't do much damage, and leaves you open for ramming, which can just tear you open.

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Some of this depends on what sort of ship you're using as your model: galley, sailing ship, or something else. For instance, if you're basing it off a galley, then go ahead and ram. If your model is a sailing ship, then ramming will probably hurt you more than him--you're risking your bowsprit, at a minimum, and it's possible to lose one or more masts in addition.

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Originally Posted by Tegu8788

I am thinking ships will mostly be for travel, but I like to plan ahead. If trips are too short that does unbalance 4E and Essentials classes, but is that as big a concern as I'm thinking?

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You mean like an accidental 15min workday? There are only a handful of Essentials classes that lack dailies like that, and even if they're in play, they won't be that badly overshadowed unless the other characters figure out that encounters are going to be few and far between on trips, and waste dailies going nova a lot. If it does look like it's going to happen, you could add a cool shipboard power or two that's slanted in favor of those classes, like ship-board weapons (with a daily power) that only the Slayer is 'proficient' in or something.

It's also less of a problem, in general, because the kind of player that might be put off by that kind of imbalance can always take the 4e version of the class instead of the Essentials - none of the no-daily Essentials classes are that unique, a Slayer becomes a Great Weapon Fighter, a Knight a guardian one, a Thief an Artful Dodger Rogue.

there is some information on vehicles and combat with vehicles in the Adventurer's Vault.

for practical experience, I'm in an Ebberron game right now. And even though we are only 6th level, We have managed to acquire an airship. Don't get to excited. We're calling her a clunker class airship. In her heyday, the Majestic Wind was a transport ship that redeployed warforged during the Great War on the battlefield. Now she's been renamed the Broken Wind. She can go up. She can go down. And she's effectively stuck in 1st gear. Also she has to land every 8 hours because the elemental that powers her really needs to be replaced.

To do battle with her, I got a couple of transparencies and drew out the floor plan of her decks. We can lay this over the grid map. She has 4 decks (Quarter, main, lower and hold.) and this has brought more of a three dimensional feel to our battles. Especially against Displacer beasts. Oh how I hate displacer beasts.

We got the ship out of necessity because we had no other option for crossing the Mournlands. Now getting her repaired and more functional has become a goal for the party.

Having it be somewhat broken down to start with is a good idea. A lived in environment is what I'm looking for, things being a bit off makes sense. Multiple layers for decks is also a smart idea, I'll keep that in mind.

I just saw another thread, here, that looks like it could use some of this type of advice. I've invited him over there, hopefully his inclusion will further progress this thread.


Another thought that was brought up earlier, is the possibility of letting the players have crew positions. Engineering, Navigation, Communications, Weapons, these are all fairly easy to RP. But should I allow one of the players to be the Captain of the ship? It is a fun role to play, but it can a serious power unbalancing within the group. What are people's thoughts? I could have the guy in charge be elsewhere, sending missions to the crew, but I'd rather give as much autonomy to the players as possible.

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Originally Posted by Tegu8788

But should I allow one of the players to be the Captain of the ship? It is a fun role to play, but it can a serious power unbalancing within the group.

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If you had the players as the Commando Team who does all the landings and exploration, then it'd be okay to have the Captain be an NPC--I've been in numerous campaigns (DnD, Traveller, StarGate, etc) where this worked.

If you're going to have the campaign be about maneuvering the ship and naval combat, then I suspect the Captain ought to be a player character.

As far as power imbalance goes--I suppose you could let the players work that out among themselves. A captain doesn't necessarily have the power to be an overbearing tin plated dictator; in a buccaneer company, depending on the agreement the ship's crew signed up to, the captain's decisions might be subject to debate except when actually in combat. If all the PCs are shareholders in the ship, then if the captain gets too big for his britches, the others can vote him out.