Class and Level Geekery XIII - Comic As Written, not Comic As Intended

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Originally Posted by Chronos

Xykon has definitely cast quickened spells somewhere...

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I am not sure that is true.

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Originally Posted by Kornaki

I think O-Chul ran, ended his turn near Redcloak, got zapped, then 5 foot stepped and full attacked.

Given Xykon's arrogance about O-Chul's chances, why can't that be two rounds of attacks? The whole two strip fight looks like:

O-chul moves to be near Redcloak. Redcloak disintegrates, O-Chul smites and disarms. Redcloak prepares word of recall. O-Chul attacks Redcloak, then attacks Jirix (picking up amulet in the middle is a bit of a fudge here). V and X cast their spells, O-Chul attacks, Xykon spends his round casting maximized lightning bolt so O-Chul attacks again.

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The reason why I am not claiming that is two rounds, is because right now O-Chul gets 3 attacks in a full attack. If Xykon waited that extra round, that would have been 6 attacks O-Chul gets off, but instead we see 4.

In the one round scenario, O-Chul gets off a full attack, and Xykon somehow moves and casts a metamagic spell.

Tarquin threw the axe at Belkar... did Belkar perhaps pick it up? Is this mentioned anywhere?

Removed a few smilies that were linked to a 404 page.

I concur that as an intelligent item, Soul Muncher should be listed. Also, as a named member of the Vector Legion, Jacinda should be listed. Does the BRITF book perhaps tell us anything about them?

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Originally Posted by Codyage

The reason why I am not claiming that is two rounds, is because right now O-Chul gets 3 attacks in a full attack. If Xykon waited that extra round, that would have been 6 attacks O-Chul gets off, but instead we see 4.

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Where have we seen O-Chul get three attacks?

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Originally Posted by Kornaki

Where have we seen O-Chul get three attacks?

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He is currently a 12+ Fighter/Paladin. According to SRD Fighters and paladins have +1 BAB.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

At levels 11-15 they get 3 attacks when making a full attack.

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Originally Posted by Codyage

He is currently a 12+ Fighter/Paladin. According to SRD Fighters and paladins have +1 BAB.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

At levels 11-15 they get 3 attacks when making a full attack.

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The evidence that he's 12+ comes after the scene with Xykon though.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, according to an online calculator I found (accuracy may vary), a level 10 character defeating a level 16 character (Redcloak at the time?) is enough XP to go from freshly minted level 10 to level 12. I vaguely recall a rule about only being able to level once at a time though.

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Originally Posted by Kornaki

The evidence that he's 12+ comes after the scene with Xykon though.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, according to an online calculator I found (accuracy may vary), a level 10 character defeating a level 16 character (Redcloak at the time?) is enough XP to go from freshly minted level 10 to level 12. I vaguely recall a rule about only being able to level once at a time though.

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Correct. If you would level twice, you instead level once and are 1xp below the next level you would have gained instead.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Removed a few smilies that were linked to a 404 page.

I concur that as an intelligent item, Soul Muncher should be listed. Also, as a named member of the Vector Legion, Jacinda should be listed. Does the BRITF book perhaps tell us anything about them?

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As far as I remember we don't get any new insight on whom people are, or anything like that.

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Originally Posted by Kurald Galain

Tarquin threw the axe at Belkar... did Belkar perhaps pick it up? Is this mentioned anywhere?

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Spoiler: BRitF

Show

I don't have the book in front of me, but the axe gave temporary negative levels to Elan and Roy when they went to pick it up, and it beat Belkar in an ego score contest and took him over. Roy took it from Belkar, fought against it, and they ended up throwing it down in a pit trap similar to what V was in, so Tarquin couldn't get it back.

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Originally Posted by Kornaki

The evidence that he's 12+ comes after the scene with Xykon though.

EDIT TO ADD: In fact, according to an online calculator I found (accuracy may vary), a level 10 character defeating a level 16 character (Redcloak at the time?) is enough XP to go from freshly minted level 10 to level 12. I vaguely recall a rule about only being able to level once at a time though.

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We only have him listed that way due to Hinjo's comment and hard to find evidence for O-Chul. That doesn't mean O-Chul ISN'T level 16, all it means is that he is higher than Hinjo. With that being said, the scene with O-Chul giving those attacks to the Phylactery, does mean he has at minimum 3 attacks. But that fourth attack is the question for debate right now.

With O-Chul the paladin who is well known for rushing straight into combat and attacking as much as he can, as long as other innocent lives aren't at risk, it seems incredibly out of character for him to have two remaining attacks be ignored on the item he needs to beat Xykon if the 2 round scenario is true.

Is their any way for O-Chul to get that fourth attack on the Phylactery, without him being 16+, and a 2nd round being involved? Because right now the 16+ theory works, if Xykon has a way to quicken spells, and and the two round theory works, if we choose to believe O-Chul didn't use two of his attacks.

Here's another question: How strong does Crystal have to be to be tossing people around like that?

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Originally Posted by Codyage

With that being said, the scene with O-Chul giving those attacks to the Phylactery, does mean he has at minimum 3 attacks. But that fourth attack is the question for debate right now.

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No, I made an argument that O-Chul might only have two attacks per turn during that scene, and it has not been responded to. You claimed there was evidence he has at least three, but the only evidence exists after the scene in question. My claim is he could have been level 10 during the fight with Xykon/Redcloak, and leveled up afterwards.

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With O-Chul the paladin who is well known for rushing straight into combat and attacking as much as he can, as long as other innocent lives aren't at risk, it seems incredibly out of character for him to have two remaining attacks be ignored on the item he needs to beat Xykon if the 2 round scenario is true.

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I made a similar argument for why he doesn't have four attacks, because he would have been giving up attacks earlier in the strip.

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Originally Posted by Loreweaver15

Here's another question: How strong does Crystal have to be to be tossing people around like that?

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At least as much as a cat animal companion with a belt of giant strength (the actual math is left as an exercise for the readers that actually know strength of animal companions). It doesn't seem to take much strength in OotS to send someone flying.

Grey Wolf

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Originally Posted by littlebum2002

Sorcerers can't cast Quickened spells.

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There is a way: take the Quicken Spell feat, then take the Automatic Quicken Spell Epic feat three times so 9th level spells are affected. Since Xykon is known to have the Epic Spellcasting feat, he would need to be at least 26th level to have the four Epic feats, taking Epic character feats at levels 21 and 24, and Epic class feats at 23rd and 26th.

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Originally Posted by Quartz

There is a way: take the Quicken Spell feat, then take the Automatic Quicken Spell Epic feat three times so 9th level spells are affected. Since Xykon is known to have the Epic Spellcasting feat, he would need to be at least 26th level to have the four Epic feats, taking Epic character feats at levels 21 and 24, and Epic class feats at 23rd and 26th.

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He could do it easier by being a Metamagic Specialist sorcerer variant, which sacrifices the familiar class feature for casting metamagic without an increased casting time. Better than burning four feats, for sure. And no evidence either way.

Xykon has never cast a Quickened spell, though.

I'm inclined to believe there is at least some cost to quickening a spell for Xykon, so he doesn't do it very often (assuming he didn't just hard cast the maximized spell on a full round).

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Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous

Xykon has never cast a Quickened spell, though.

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This. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure every time someone has cast a Quickened spell they have vocalized it. I welcome being proven wrong though.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

He could do it easier by being a Metamagic Specialist sorcerer variant, which sacrifices the familiar class feature for casting metamagic without an increased casting time. Better than burning four feats, for sure. And no evidence either way.

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There is circumstantial evidence that he has the Metamagic Specialist. First and most obvious is that he does not have a familiar. Yes, I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - thus circumstantial. But "Power = Power" Xykon is not one to leave a character bonus behind when it might give him an edge, so I find it unlikely that he would have forgotten he has a familiar; instead, he must have traded it in for something, and Metamagic Specialist fits (I don't know what other alternative exchanges exist).

The other circumstantial evidence is, I believe, the Maximized Energy Drain. I'm not sure of the details, but isn't there an issue with how this spell was cast that was explainable by the MM Specialist? At least, I can't imagine were else I would've heard of the concept.

Grey Wolf

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Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c

There is circumstantial evidence that he has the Metamagic Specialist. First and most obvious is that he does not have a familiar. Yes, I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - thus circumstantial. But "Power = Power" Xykon is not one to leave a character bonus behind when it might give him an edge....

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Just a nit-pick: He said he only realized that Power = Power AFTER he died rather than before when he would have had to make that choice. Assuming it is a choice a sorcerer makes rather than just being something that some have built in.

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Originally Posted by rodneyAnonymous

Xykon has never cast a Quickened spell, though.

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If he had the Automatic Quicken Spell epic feats, all his spells would automatically be quickened and we'd be none the wiser.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

He could do it easier by being a Metamagic Specialist sorcerer variant, which sacrifices the familiar class feature for casting metamagic without an increased casting time.

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On the other hand, it's an OoTS convention that when a caster applies metamagic to a spell that we read what that metamagic is, and as noted previously, we've never seen Xykon cast a spell which he says is Quickened, though we have seen him announce other metamagics (e.g. Maximised in 459). If you look at his fight with Dorukan in SoD he casts two Energy Drains to Dorukan's one (unnamed) spell in panels 2-4 of p106, so one Energy Drain must be Quickened. It's also probable he casts three Energy Drains in one round in panels 4-8, so he's likely got Multispell as well, which would put him at level 27 minimum.

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Originally Posted by Quartz

On the other hand, it's an OoTS convention that when a caster applies metamagic to a spell that we read what that metamagic is, and as noted previously, we've never seen Xykon cast a spell which he says is Quickened, though we have seen him announce other metamagics (e.g. Maximised in 459). If you look at his fight with Dorukan in SoD he casts two Energy Drains to Dorukan's one (unnamed) spell in panels 2-4 of p106, so one Energy Drain must be Quickened. It's also probable he casts three Energy Drains in one round in panels 4-8, so he's likely got Multispell as well, which would put him at level 27 minimum.

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I dont have read SoD but I have read ABOUT it and IIRC, his 2 fights against Dorukan and Lirian are about even and they are supposed to be "low epic". A level 27 is hardly "low epic".

And this "multi-spell" has never been used even when really chalenged against Darth V are the Ghost-Paladin.

I guess there could easily be other explanations for he multiple energy drain against Dorukan (for Example Dorukan passing is turn :p)

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Originally Posted by Timy

I dont have read SoD but I have read ABOUT it and IIRC, his 2 fights against Dorukan and Lirian are about even and they are supposed to be "low epic". A level 27 is hardly "low epic".

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Actually, yes, I'd count level 27 as low-epic. For me, 30s would be mid-epic, and 40+ high epic.

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And this "multi-spell"

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Oh please, it's in the SRD.

OK, no problem on your definitions of "low-epic" or "mid-epic" but what about the fact that we NEVER saw X say "quickened" and except on these few times we are speacking about, we never had any example were he casted 2 spells in the same round (even less more than 2).

And it seems that in those examples, there could be other explanations... On the other hand, we have examples were he was in danger and didn't cast multiple spells in the same round.

Examples : darth V fight and ghost fight.

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Originally Posted by Quartz

On the other hand, it's an OoTS convention that when a caster applies metamagic to a spell that we read what that metamagic is, and as noted previously, we've never seen Xykon cast a spell which he says is Quickened, though we have seen him announce other metamagics (e.g. Maximised in 459). If you look at his fight with Dorukan in SoD he casts two Energy Drains to Dorukan's one (unnamed) spell in panels 2-4 of p106, so one Energy Drain must be Quickened. It's also probable he casts three Energy Drains in one round in panels 4-8, so he's likely got Multispell as well, which would put him at level 27 minimum.

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Why would multispell make you Level 27 minimum?

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Originally Posted by Timy

OK, no problem on your definitions of "low-epic" or "mid-epic" but what about the fact that we NEVER saw X say "quickened" and except on these few times we are speacking about, we never had any example were he casted 2 spells in the same round (even less more than 2).

And it seems that in those examples, there could be other explanations... On the other hand, we have examples were he was in danger and didn't cast multiple spells in the same round.

Examples : darth V fight and ghost fight.

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A.) I would hardly count the Darth V fight as Xykon being in significant danger. V got some good shots in, but Xykon had the upper hand the whole battle. The ghost paladins, that one was warranted.

2.) Speaking of, in a single strip, Xykon does not say a single spell he casts (they could be Silent Spelled, but why?), and mentions he's running out of spells above fifth level. Quickening a first level spell in this situation would be a bit.... odd, wouldn't you say? And we get a fine example of the standard verbal component being completely ignored.

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Originally Posted by littlebum2002

Why would multispell make you Level 27 minimum?

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It's an Epic feat. Which means, if he shot three Energy Drains, he'd need to have picked it up twice. So his feat selection would be Epic Spellcasting at Level 21, Multispell at 24, and Multispell (again) at 27.

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Originally Posted by littlebum2002

Why would multispell make you Level 27 minimum?

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Because of the number of Epic feats required. We know Xykon has the Epic Spellcasting feat. To cast a Quickened 9th level spell requires Automatic Quicken Spell three times, and Multispell is the 5th feat. Xykon will be getting Epic character feats at 21st level, 24th level, and 27th level; and Epic class feats at 22nd and 26th level.

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Originally Posted by Peelee

It's an Epic feat. Which means, if he shot three Energy Drains, he'd need to have picked it up twice. So his feat selection would be Epic Spellcasting at Level 21, Multispell at 24, and Multispell (again) at 27.

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Not quite - Multispell only allows you to cast a Quickened spell - but there's nothing stopping Xykon casting two Quickened Energy Drains and one normal, non-Quickened Energy Drain. Only one Multispell feat required.

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Originally Posted by Quartz

Not quite - Multispell only allows you to cast a Quickened spell - but there's nothing stopping Xykon casting two Quickened Energy Drains and one normal, non-Quickened Energy Drain. Only one Multispell feat required.

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Aha. Shows what a quick Google and lack of familiarity with Epic rules leads to. Didn't even know about the bonus class feats, and I somehow skimmed over the "quickened" in the feat description.

Metamagic-ed 9th level spells require extra spell slots though:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...dSpellCapacity

unless the character has a way of metamagic-ing without increasing the level of the spell.

So, Maximized Energy Drains (unless he's using a Rod of Maximize Spell or something similar- without it being visible) imply he's taken the Improved Spell Capacity Feat at least 3 times.