Warhammer & 40K RPGs Thread III: With Friends Like These, Who Needs Heresies?

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Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul

I like Morgenstern, partially because it's a celestial reference and Star Wars likes those.

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And its the name of the guy who wrote 'The Princess Bride' :smallsmile:

Crud, I forgot about that! :smalleek:

I'll need to find some other German-sounding first name for him that starts with a different letter.

Would Ambrose work? I've been told it sounds too "English." :smallconfused:

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

Crud, I forgot about that! :smalleek:

I'll need to find some other German-sounding first name for him that starts with a different letter.

Would Ambrose work? I've been told it sounds too "English." :smallconfused:

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Ambrose sounds English to me. How about Adolphus .?

What I do when looking for character names is just go to Behind the Name or something like that, find the subset of names I want to look at (German, in this case) and just scroll down until I see one I like.

I don't use Behind The Name as a rule. It's REALLY not accurate, especially for First Nation names, Hebrew names and the names of the various African nations and peoples (I've been told that if a site just has a section labelled "African Names" or "Native American Names" that should be a SERIOUS red flag), to the point of being offensive.

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

I don't use Behind The Name as a rule. It's REALLY not accurate, especially for First Nation names, Hebrew names and the names of the various African nations and peoples (I've been told that if a site just has a section labelled "African Names" or "Native American Names" that should be a SERIOUS red flag), to the point of being offensive.

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That's not really a reason to not use it for character name inspiration, but you can always just pick another site with a similar idea if you want to avoid that one specifically.

Here's a question unrelated to the naming question: WHFRP has a...reputation, as a meatgrinder for player characters. That you shouldn't get too attached to your character because "In the Grim Darkness of medieval Europe, you will roll peasants and die of cholera." How true IS that reputation, as far as you who've actually played the game have seen?

The implication one gets from reading TV Tropes is that you'll be living hand-to mouth your entire life, never being able to afford even a mail hauberk to protect yourself, and the fun of the game comes from seeing just how many amusing ways the poor souls you play as can suffer and die, whether from a freak magical explosion from your party's wizard, from crapping your guts out due to poor sanitation, from the crude blade of one of the many, MANY beasties like Skaven or Orcs, or by your own hand after you inevitably get a mutation.

While part of me understands the appeal of such a playstyle (that's the whole reason Paranoia is popular in the first place), it feels like you never really get a chance to have a character arc because the whole of your character's story ultimately boils down to luck and the story will always end with one bad roll of the die. That you just have a "golf bag" of characters you aren't emotionally attached to just to get through the adventure.

I get that your character isn't supposed to become as famous or powerful as someone like Emperor Karl Franz or Gotrek Gurnnison, you're not going to be dueling Archaon to save the world, but is there ANY way to improve your chances of survival so you can have SOME meaningful impact on the Old World? Just how inevitable ARE mutations anyway? How many advances or career changes does the average WHFRP character get through before they die? Are some of the high-tier careers like Wizard Lord or High Priest just there to taunt players with a level of power and wealth they'll never survive to achieve?

What I'm trying to do is understand this game in practice, an understanding the books just can't provide on their own. For me, part of the Warhammer experience has always been "Yes, this world is cruel and unforgiving, but if you're smart, careful, and more than a little lucky, you can survive the worst of what it throws at you, and maybe even make it a slightly less crappy place."
I don't know if that feeling is exclusive to Total War: Warhammer or something. Thank you all in advance.

I'm speaking as someone who has played in multiple Warhammer campaigns using both 1st and 2nd Ed. One of which stretched over 6 years and ended with the two surviving PCs ( and most of the rest were lost to people moving away) who ended up VERY high in the Empire and very dangerous people.
From this perspective I'd say Warhammer's reputation, as you described it, is mostly untrue IF ( big if) you don't treat it as DnD.
If you decide goblin hoards are there to be charged, city guard to be defied and Nobles to be laughed at then you are going to DIE !
Use tactics, use smarts, run away when you have to and, probably most vital, accept there are some people (usually ones with Von in their name) that YOU DON'T ANSWER BACK TO ! ( You just plot behind their back to bring them down and steal their land :smallcool: ).

Yes horrible **** can happen but that's why the P.C.s get Fate Points to see them through the horrid luck and why wise G.M's know to change some of the killer campaigns released for Warhammer, and yes 'Something Rotten In Kislev' I'm definitely looking at you !
Warhammer's reputation is, IMHO, a combination of DnD groups trying to play it like DnD and the normal human desire to exaggerate things to make them sound cooler/more dangerous/ etc


To put things in perspective after 6 years of play both the P.Cs in the campaign I refered to above had both been through multiple careers, had the best gear money could buy and even had a couple of magic items. This meant they could take on, say, three average opponents in a fair fight with a decent chance of winning. But you know what we got to that level by avoiding fighting fair at every opportunity

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

Here's a question unrelated to the naming question: WHFRP has a...reputation, as a meatgrinder for player characters. That you shouldn't get too attached to your character because "In the Grim Darkness of medieval Europe, you will roll peasants and die of cholera." How true IS that reputation, as far as you who've actually played the game have seen?

The implication one gets from reading TV Tropes is that you'll be living hand-to mouth your entire life, never being able to afford even a mail hauberk to protect yourself, and the fun of the game comes from seeing just how many amusing ways the poor souls you play as can suffer and die, whether from a freak magical explosion from your party's wizard, from crapping your guts out due to poor sanitation, from the crude blade of one of the many, MANY beasties like Skaven or Orcs, or by your own hand after you inevitably get a mutation.

While part of me understands the appeal of such a playstyle (that's the whole reason Paranoia is popular in the first place), it feels like you never really get a chance to have a character arc because the whole of your character's story ultimately boils down to luck and the story will always end with one bad roll of the die. That you just have a "golf bag" of characters you aren't emotionally attached to just to get through the adventure.

I get that your character isn't supposed to become as famous or powerful as someone like Emperor Karl Franz or Gotrek Gurnnison, you're not going to be dueling Archaon to save the world, but is there ANY way to improve your chances of survival so you can have SOME meaningful impact on the Old World? Just how inevitable ARE mutations anyway? How many advances or career changes does the average WHFRP character get through before they die? Are some of the high-tier careers like Wizard Lord or High Priest just there to taunt players with a level of power and wealth they'll never survive to achieve?

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The game certainly can be played that way, but it doesn't have to be.

There's always a risk of your character dying in a fight, but you have Fate Points that can be spent to save your character from death (and Fortune Points for rerolls, which can often avert said death). There is always the safety net there for if you screw up or just get unlucky. And a lot of GMs will let you earn more Fate Points through play.

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What I'm trying to do is understand this game in practice, an understanding the books just can't provide on their own. For me, part of the Warhammer experience has always been "Yes, this world is cruel and unforgiving, but if you're smart, careful, and more than a little lucky, you can survive the worst of what it throws at you, and maybe even make it a slightly less crappy place."
I don't know if that feeling is exclusive to Total War: Warhammer or something. Thank you all in advance.

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I think that's a pretty good summary of WFRP in general, provided you don't have a GM who thinks that having you all die of filth fever after wading through a sewer is the best thing ever.



I'm just going to drop a couple of links to some campaign logs for WFRP that I've seen that might be helpful in determining the different ways the system can be played:

The Shadow Of The Sun (sadly unfinished)
Troupe Of The Chiked Chicken (Actuall WFRP 1e, but you should get the feel - in progress)
Letters To Helena (I've not actually read this one, or seen it before today, so I can't vouch for the quality or content)

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Originally Posted by comicshorse

I'm speaking as someone who has played in multiple Warhammer campaigns using both 1st and 2nd Ed. One of which stretched over 6 years and ended with the two surviving PCs ( and most of the rest were lost to people moving away) who ended up VERY high in the Empire and very dangerous people.
From this perspective I'd say Warhammer's reputation, as you described it, is mostly untrue IF ( big if) you don't treat it as DnD.
If you decide goblin hoards are there to be charged, city guard to be defied and Nobles to be laughed at then you are going to DIE !
Use tactics, use smarts, run away when you have to and, probably most vital, accept there are some people (usually ones with Von in their name) that YOU DON'T ANSWER BACK TO ! ( You just plot behind their back to bring them down and steal their land :smallcool: ).

Yes horrible **** can happen but that's why the P.C.s get Fate Points to see them through the horrid luck and why wise G.M's know to change some of the killer campaigns released for Warhammer, and yes 'Something Rotten In Kislev' I'm definitely looking at you !
Warhammer's reputation is, IMHO, a combination of DnD groups trying to play it like DnD and the normal human desire to exaggerate things to make them sound cooler/more dangerous/ etc


To put things in perspective after 6 years of play both the P.Cs in the campaign I refered to above had both been through multiple careers, had the best gear money could buy and even had a couple of magic items. This meant they could take on, say, three average opponents in a fair fight with a decent chance of winning. But you know what we got to that level by avoiding fighting fair at every opportunity

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That's very reassuring, comicshorse. Thank you! :smallsmile:

It completely depends on the GM.
Just like in any other systems, the GM sets the difficulty.

A few of my friends did, in fact, have a campaign where they fought and killed Karl Franz. It might not have been completely canon and true to the original intent, but it sounds very rock n' roll.

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

I get that your character isn't supposed to become as famous or powerful as someone like Emperor Karl Franz or Gotrek Gurnnison,

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Ironically in the Warhammer world Gotrek isn't that famous. His companion has written a few stories about him but they're not popular and widely disregarded as tall tales. Way back when White Dwarf even published stats for Gotrek as he was then ( this was probably only a couple of books in) and while tough he was far from invincible. He'd completed 3 or 4 careers and had a magic weapon if I remember rightly

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Just how inevitable ARE mutations anyway

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They're mostly not if you follow some simple rules.
(1) Don't make deal with demons
(2) Don't go near, let alone touch, Warpstone
(3) and no matter how powerful the chaos warriors sword/armour/amulet is you do not use it. Ever

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Are some of the high-tier careers like Wizard Lord or High Priest just there to taunt players with a level of power and wealth they'll never survive to achieve?

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They're reachable but it will take a loooooooong time (both IC and OOC) and luck, skill,planning and probably a couple of Fate Points

So...common sense and I should be okay! Thanks!

Is there anything preventing a wizard from carrying around a pistol as a kind of ace-in-the-hole, backup weapon? I kinda wanna be like Avatar from the Ralph Bakshi film Wizards, in this epic battle of magic! :smallbiggrin:

Absolutely nothing, apart from that he'll need to have the appropriate Specialist Weapon Skill to use it with any accuracy.
Also probably best not carrying around a weapon which needs a bag of gunpowder if you're a Bright wizard :smallsmile:

Oh don't worry! I specifically didn't want to play a Bright Wizard since they got all the attention in games like Warhammer Online and Vermintide. :smalltongue:

Still struggling to decide between Celestial or Grey, though...

I got another lore question. I know Eldar in 40k consider humans to be barely evolved primates and would consider having a relationship with one to be disgusting to say the least.

Do the High and Wood Elves of Fantasy feel similarly? One of the other players in my group wants to be an elf, and she likes to play "flirty" characters. I'm just not sure how flirty an elf would be with non-elves.

High Elves feel themselves superior to humans but not quite to the extent Eldar do. High Elves, for example, taught Humans about the Colours of magic and founded the Imperial Colleges of Magic. Granted so humans would be better equipped to act as a bulwark against the forces of Chaos and protect them.
Wood Elves are a little less superior in their attitude but rarely emerge from their forest holds. Though obviously adventurers are always unusual members of their races.
Sea Elves are the most social of the Elven races and have the most contact with humans.

Human/Elven marriages are rare but I got the feeling that flirtations and even brief affairs between the races are more common but not really talked about by Elves. And, as I said earlier, adventurers are always uncommon members of their races.
As a thought, it might even be that the PC's family, thinking her a little 'wild' have sent her out into the world to work it out of her system before returning to be a proper elf. ( That was the reasoning behind an Elf character of mine although he's weakness was more for gambling)

Aren't Sea Elves just another name for High Elves? :smallconfused:

Not in First ED. , which is the one I'm most familiar with. Certainly the Elf colony in Marienberg definitely consider themselves Sea Elves NOT High Elves
Though obviously the line between all types of Elves, even Dark Elves, is geographical and social not genetic

I see. Our GM seems to believe that elves from Laurelorn aren't Wood Elves because they're not in Athel Loren proper, but the books seem to indicate they behave basically like standard Athel Loren Asrai. Then again, the 2e books barely cover non-human cultures, aside from Halflings because they're so thoroughly integrated into the Empire.

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

I see. Our GM seems to believe that elves from Laurelorn aren't Wood Elves because they're not in Athel Loren proper, but the books seem to indicate they behave basically like standard Athel Loren Asrai. Then again, the 2e books barely cover non-human cultures, aside from Halflings because they're so thoroughly integrated into the Empire.

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That was my understanding. Wood Elves are those who refused the order for all Elves to return to Ulthuan after the end of the 'War of the Beard' and choose to remain in their forest homes in the Old World. Athel Loren is the most important of these colonies but far from the only one

P.S
If you're interested there is a fan book for Wood Elves

http://www.liberfanatica.net/Elf_Project.html

Thank you! I'll read it as soon as the internet outage at my house is over and I'm not stuck using a phone for web access. :smallannoyed:

I had some other random questions about the setting and rules of the Old World:

1. I'm aware that halflings can't become wizards as a byproduct of their natural resistance to Chaos energy, but can they channel blessings of the gods if, say, a halfling became a priest of Sigmar? Or does that count as another kind of magic, meaning halflings joining the priesthood are restricted to careers like Monk or Lay Priest?

2. Related to the flirty Wood Elf question, what exactly would happen if an Elf and Human got together "committed some heresy?" I know WHFRP isn't D&D, and the wiki and books don't say anything about "half-elves, so does it just not result in a pregnancy or is it more like Dragon Age where the resulting offspring would be considered completely human? And the same question extends to the other non-humans. What happens between humans and dwarfs? Or if the unthinkable should happen and a dwarf and an elf actually manage to fall in love?!

3. If someone wants to be a sharpshooter, is it better to stick with archery-style weapons like the longbow and crossbow, or will you get more bang-for-your-buck (literally!) by getting a firearm or a Hochland Long Rifle? And what careers lend themselves best to that kind of playstyle? My understanding is that a halfling PC will be surprisingly effective with a crossbow or arquebus, coupled with their Chaos resistance resulting in strong survivability, but apart from the obvious career progression of Apprentice Wizard to Wizard Lord, I'm not sure how to character build with these rules, and if there's any "traps" I need to watch out for.

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

1. I'm aware that halflings can't become wizards as a byproduct of their natural resistance to Chaos energy, but can they channel blessings of the gods if, say, a halfling became a priest of Sigmar? Or does that count as another kind of magic, meaning halflings joining the priesthood are restricted to careers like Monk or Lay Priest?

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In 1st Ed. Halflings could cast spells and be wizards just like anybody else. Assuming you're using 2nd Ed. then Halflings 'Resistance to Chaos' means they can never become a 'spellcaster of any type'. So if a Halfling wants to become a Priest they are restricted to the Careers that don't give magic
( That said Halflings have their own diety, Esmeralda, and so presumably their own Church. It wouldn't seem unreasonable to me to allow Halfling P.C.s to enter religious Careers and buy all the Skils and Talents APART from the ones that provide Spells. But that would be up to individual G.M.s)

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2. Related to the flirty Wood Elf question, what exactly would happen if an Elf and Human got together "committed some heresy?" I know WHFRP isn't D&D, and the wiki and books don't say anything about "half-elves, so does it just not result in a pregnancy or is it more like Dragon Age where the resulting offspring would be considered completely human? And the same question extends to the other non-humans. What happens between humans and dwarfs? Or if the unthinkable should happen and a dwarf and an elf actually manage to fall in love?!

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I can't think of any time Half-Elves have turned up in Warhammer (aside from a campaign I was in and then they were simply stupendously rare). Certainly if Elves and Humans could reproduce given the unpleasant practices of the Dark Elves there would be loads of Half-Elves cluttering up Naggaroth.
As far as I'm aware the races just can't reproduce with each other.
As for a Dwarf and Elf falling in love, the answer is obvious. The Dwarf would do their duty to the Clan and never do anything about it. :smallsmile:

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3. If someone wants to be a sharpshooter, is it better to stick with archery-style weapons like the longbow and crossbow, or will you get more bang-for-your-buck (literally!) by getting a firearm or a Hochland Long Rifle? And what careers lend themselves best to that kind of playstyle?

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The problem with Firearms is they're rare ( and consequently Careers that give the necessary Specialist Skills are very rare to). Gunpowder is rare and expensive to and Firearms tend to take a long time to reload. Not to mention the problem with damp rendering you're gunpowder useless.
For rough life of an adventurer where you have to watch your pennies and don't know where the next re-supply is coming from (let alone a place sophisticated enough to sell gunpowder) you're probably better off going for a long bow or crossbow.
For killing things with a bow the best career is, IMHO, Targeteer. It's an Advanced career but can be got to through Bounty Hunter of Hunter, both of which lend themselves well to killing things at range. ( Which is the best way to do it )

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My understanding is that a halfling PC will be surprisingly effective with a crossbow or arquebus,

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Not unless he gets one specifically built to be used by somebody Halfling sized :smallsmile: Go for a short bow or sling

Thanks for the prompt answers, comicshorse! :smallsmile:

One more question: are Bretonnian Grail Knights allowed to have kids, or do they need to get that out of the way BEFORE questing to seek the Grail, because presumably chastity is one of the virtues the Lady wants to test them on using a oath of celibacy or something?

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

Thanks for the prompt answers, comicshorse! :smallsmile:

One more question: are Bretonnian Grail Knights allowed to have kids, or do they need to get that out of the way BEFORE questing to seek the Grail, because presumably chastity is one of the virtues the Lady wants to test them on using a oath of celibacy or something?

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Grail Knights are meant to be 'pure and noble'. Now this is open to interpretation but the Knights are based on Arthurian Legends which were big on the Knight finding his true Lady and then living happily with her and raising a family to continue his family name and protect his lands and serve the King down through the years. So, that said, I'd think Chastity wouldn't be required but faithfulness to his Lady absolutely would

True, very true. The whole reason Lancelot failed wasn't his amorous misadventures in general, but his SPECIFIC amorous misadventure with the Queen.

Thanks again! :smallsmile:

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Originally Posted by comicshorse

Grail Knights are meant to be 'pure and noble'. Now this is open to interpretation but the Knights are based on Arthurian Legends which were big on the Knight finding his true Lady and then living happily with her and raising a family to continue his family name and protect his lands and serve the King down through the years. So, that said, I'd think Chastity wouldn't be required but faithfulness to his Lady absolutely would

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An oath of chastity is an oath against have pre-marital sex, so they probably do take those since they fit nicely with the Arthurian theme (Gawain and the Green Knight has Gawain adhering to an oath of Chastity). Oaths of Celibacy mean no sex at all, and... I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards "no" they don't take them, because the King of Bretonnia is always a Grail Knight, and I believe Louen Leoncoeur is the son of the last king, who was a Grail Knight.

Might be wrong, though.

On a more political note, I'd say celibacy could go one way or the other; it'd mess with bloodlines (which are probably important culturally) and prevent the 'best' knights ever producing a set of must-be-as-good-as-them offspring which isn't great for the country as a whole. On the other hand, it works with the highly dedicated and oath-taking nature of the Grail Quest.

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Originally Posted by Aneurin

An oath of chastity is an oath against have pre-marital sex, so they probably do take those since they fit nicely with the Arthurian theme (Gawain and the Green Knight has Gawain adhering to an oath of Chastity). Oaths of Celibacy mean no sex at all, and... I'm not sure. I'm leaning towards "no" they don't take them, because the King of Bretonnia is always a Grail Knight, and I believe Louen Leoncoeur is the son of the last king, who was a Grail Knight.

Might be wrong, though.

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Ah, I genuinely thought Chastity and Celibacy were interchangeable. Cool, I learned something new today :smallsmile:

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On a more political note, I'd say celibacy could go one way or the other; it'd mess with bloodlines (which are probably important culturally) and prevent the 'best' knights ever producing a set of must-be-as-good-as-them offspring which isn't great for the country as a whole. On the other hand, it works with the highly dedicated and oath-taking nature of the Grail Quest.

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I'd definitely think Grail Knights should be Chaste but not Celibate. Not just for the power of tradition ( 'Are family have served the De Lys family for centuries lad. So it was and shall be) and bloodlines but it'd be a political nightmare if ruling families kept going extinct, leaving their lands to be squabbled over by every noble within range. Brettonia would be in a state of constant chaos. I mean, even more so than usual.

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Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha

I got another lore question. I know Eldar in 40k consider humans to be barely evolved primates and would consider having a relationship with one to be disgusting to say the least.

Do the High and Wood Elves of Fantasy feel similarly? One of the other players in my group wants to be an elf, and she likes to play "flirty" characters. I'm just not sure how flirty an elf would be with non-elves.

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In Gilead's Blood a novel with a high-elven protagonists he considers human women to be swollen and cow-like. Gilead is generally agreed to be a highly-strung perfectionist though.

There is also a high-elf (who stayed in the colonies after the recall to Ulthuan) with a half-elf child in the same story, so it's far from impossible.

A high elf might feasibly be attracted to a human, but they'd be considered pretty eccentric or even debased for doing so. High elves are typically reserved, but "usually" isn't "always"! A flirty high elf could be fun.

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Originally Posted by comicshorse

I'd definitely think Grail Knights should be Chaste but not Celibate. Not just for the power of tradition ( 'Are family have served the De Lys family for centuries lad. So it was and shall be) and bloodlines but it'd be a political nightmare if ruling families kept going extinct, leaving their lands to be squabbled over by every noble within range. Brettonia would be in a state of constant chaos. I mean, even more so than usual.

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Aneurin was almost correct; Louen Leoncoeur's father was not a Grail Knight, but he was and he had a bastard son who notoriously betrayed him during the End Times - The "Mordred" equivalent of the Bretonnian/Arthurian crossover.
So, Grail Knights can have kids of their own, despite being "pure" and supernatural beings.

Possibly you were thinking of Questing Knights? Grail Knights are exceptionally rare but there are many, many Questing Knights who try to live up to their ideals and examples. Questing Knights definitely are celibate by the wording of their ritual vow to undertake the Grail Quest; they foresake all mortal pleasures and even partially disown their families in order to concentrate solely on the goal of becoming a Grail Knight.

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Originally Posted by comicshorse

As for a Dwarf and Elf falling in love, the answer is obvious. The Dwarf would do their duty to the Clan and never do anything about it. :smallsmile:

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I don't know about that; I'm sure there's been far, far worse reasons for someone taking the Slayer's Oath..... :smallwink: