Third (and more) "ancient" civilizations for my Jungle regions?

Hi all,

The List of reptilian creatures thread has got my creative juices flowing again and I want some advice.

I have this vast jungle area in my work, based somewhere between the high altitude parts of the amazon, the cities of the Aztecs, and the jungle topped sea stacks found in the South China Seas. The sea stacks are already sorted. A collection of avian and aquatic races form little Caribbean pirate colonies. But I have this grand idea for at least 3 "lost civilizations" deep in the jungle, just continually at war with each other. And I want those civilizations to fit certain themes. They will be the ones occupying the "aztec" cities. Step pyramids, hieroglyphs, etc.

One of the civilizations are the lizard-folk. I am throwing in a few more "lizardy" looking bipeds to make them more varied too, so Kobolds are there, as are a few other things. They are definitely more "aztec". Large, stone cities. Often in the middle of lakes. If you cant see the Warhammer Fantasy links yet, you might need an eye test.

Another is the Yuan-ti. Again, taking an aztec theme, but pushing a little more down a darker path. The Yuan-ti have several variants so I can keep my mixed populations as I like them. I am less of a fan of mono-cultures.

But I would like at least one more civilization. O'bati are nice for little tribes in between, but there arnt enough froggy people for me to want to make them a major power broker. I had a similar problem when I tried to do "spider people". Driders are nice but its pretty much just them. I dont want formians. Too extraplanar.

So what can I use. I sort of want to stick to the "reptile/amphibian/insect" theme as it feels right for hidden, slightly alien jungle races. I dont want dragons to be major players there. Oh, and psionics become tricky for me. For lore reasons, psionics exists pretty much exclusively in another part of the world. It simply cant exist here in any large degree (which I think eliminates those mantis-people).

So, any ideas? I am happy to have more than one other civ too. Wouldnt mind an "Incan" group living on the mountain tops.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel

Hi all,

The List of reptilian creatures thread has got my creative juices flowing again and I want some advice.

I have this vast jungle area in my work, based somewhere between the high altitude parts of the amazon, the cities of the Aztecs, and the jungle topped sea stacks found in the South China Seas. The sea stacks are already sorted. A collection of avian and aquatic races form little Caribbean pirate colonies. But I have this grand idea for at least 3 "lost civilizations" deep in the jungle, just continually at war with each other. And I want those civilizations to fit certain themes. They will be the ones occupying the "aztec" cities. Step pyramids, hieroglyphs, etc.

One of the civilizations are the lizard-folk. I am throwing in a few more "lizardy" looking bipeds to make them more varied too, so Kobolds are there, as are a few other things. They are definitely more "aztec". Large, stone cities. Often in the middle of lakes. If you cant see the Warhammer Fantasy links yet, you might need an eye test.

Another is the Yuan-ti. Again, taking an aztec theme, but pushing a little more down a darker path. The Yuan-ti have several variants so I can keep my mixed populations as I like them. I am less of a fan of mono-cultures.

But I would like at least one more civilization. O'bati are nice for little tribes in between, but there arnt enough froggy people for me to want to make them a major power broker. I had a similar problem when I tried to do "spider people". Driders are nice but its pretty much just them. I dont want formians. Too extraplanar.

So what can I use. I sort of want to stick to the "reptile/amphibian/insect" theme as it feels right for hidden, slightly alien jungle races. I dont want dragons to be major players there. Oh, and psionics become tricky for me. For lore reasons, psionics exists pretty much exclusively in another part of the world. It simply cant exist here in any large degree (which I think eliminates those mantis-people).

So, any ideas? I am happy to have more than one other civ too. Wouldnt mind an "Incan" group living on the mountain tops.

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Well, for the "living on mountain tops" thing, it's not exactly lizardy but Goliaths and Yak Folk fit the environment. Raptorans or Harpies, possibly, if you're okay with birds being cousins of lizards.

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Originally Posted by Telonius

Well, for the "living on mountain tops" thing, it's not exactly lizardy but Goliaths and Yak Folk fit the environment. Raptorans or Harpies, possibly, if you're okay with birds being cousins of lizards.

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Of the lizardy races the kobolds would probably have worked best in the mountains since they're also dragony

Entomanothrope, or were-bugs, would allow really any sort of custom bug race.
If you don't want the lycanthropy aspect, just keep them in hybrid form all the time.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel

Hi all,
So, any ideas? I am happy to have more than one other civ too. Wouldnt mind an "Incan" group living on the mountain tops.

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Reskin centaurs as half=llama?

Jaguar-ish catfolk down in the lowlands? There are plenty of catfolk races to choose from, stat-wise.

What do the lizard folk and yuan-ti eat? The answer to that question might shed some light.

Well, since Thri-Kreen are out there's the Abeil, bee people.

There are non-psionic thri-keen. You could have them be the only surviving tribe of thri-keen. Them, the bee folk and some were bugs work. There are frogish people in monsters of faerun iirc, and serpentfolk are an ancient race with a few variations in pathfinder if you want to back port them.

For spider-people, there're aranea and ettercaps as well as driders. And they could hypothetically use phase spiders as mounts or allies.

In Chult, the aaracockra have a presence; you could adapt them into your mountain-top race.

Fire giants wouldn't mind the heat of the jungle; they're immune to fire.

Diopsid from dragon compendium would be cool

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
The List of reptilian creatures thread has got my creative juices flowing again and I want some advice.

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Glad I could help. :smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
I sort of want to stick to the "reptile/amphibian/insect" theme as it feels right for hidden, slightly alien jungle races.

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If you’re open to Pathfinder material, the vishkanya would be perfect. Human at first glance, but subtly reptilian, with venomous blood and a knack for spycraft.

If you want a composite or multispecies empire, pairing the vishkanya with nagaji could work well, with the nagaji forming the bulk of the labor force while the vishkanya rule and intrigue, both among themselves and against the other two empires. Nagaji are a natural fit for tropical habitat.

Alternatively, if you want to stick with 3.5, you could go full-on Dinotopia. Seriously, just compile all the dinosaurs from all corners of 3.5, give them a hidden city of wonders, and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Segev
Fire giants wouldn't mind the heat of the jungle; they're immune to fire.

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Yeah, but it’s incredibly humid. That would probably drive them nuts. :smalltongue:

Reposting from the reptilian thread. Tortles are in dragon 315. Turtle people. Pathfinder has sobeks, crocodile people. In akashic mysteries by dreamscarred press. Pathfinder has kappa stated, not sure what bestiary but link

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/mo...manoids/kappa/

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Originally Posted by Segev

For spider-people, there're aranea and ettercaps as well as driders. And they could hypothetically use phase spiders as mounts or allies.

In Chult, the aaracockra have a presence; you could adapt them into your mountain-top race.

Fire giants wouldn't mind the heat of the jungle; they're immune to fire.

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There's also the Chitine & their Choldrith priests, a pair of spider-people from Monsters of the Faerun. The first ones are small monstrous humanoids with 4 arms, and a penchant to craft almost everything out of long-lasting webbing. The second ones use their RHD to also count as cleric caster levels.

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Originally Posted by PraxisVetli

Entomanothrope, or were-bugs, would allow really any sort of custom bug race.
If you don't want the lycanthropy aspect, just keep them in hybrid form all the time.

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I'm seconding this.

Ooh. Were-wasps. They infect lizard men and abscond off with them, pressing them into labor/indoctrination. It's how they build their city: hive home.

Savage Species has the Insectile Creature template, and Underdark has the Arachnoid Creature template. Arachnoid can only be applied to animals and magical beasts, so make them some sort of heavy guardians or just predators that hunt the insectile creatures and anyone else they find.

I'd use Insectile with any Jungle race, preferably something small size. They would have their broods underground but have surface settlements for agriculture. For the arachnoid creatures, Arachnoid Girallons would be absolutely terrifying, with eight claw attacks and a venomous bite.

They could use a pheromone pod or similar to control swarms of non-sentient monstrous insects or even stirges against their enemies. Make them use Giant Bombadier Beetles as mounts maybe, and/or have some advanced to large size to use as beasts of burden.

Oooh, Insectile and Entomanothrope are perfect for at least one more civ. Primarily underground. I could build a Hallownest! And yes, were-wasps kidnapping and enslaving members of the other races would be perfect.

So thats a semi-aquatic lowland civ (lizardfolk and associated lizardlike races), another dryer lowland race (the yuan-ti and other snake things), and now an underground civ in the form of the insect people (with bug mounts, etc). Probably roll a few spiders into that just for flavor, but more likely have them hidden and preying on the nest inhabitants.

Raptorans are the ones that live in the ocean, on my tall cliff like islands, but Aarakokra in the inland mountains works for a few tribes. Not a civ though. Im sure they could work, but I would rather not.

Still sort of want something to live in cities on the tops of the mountains, hidden in the clouds (the jungle area is largely high altitude, with deep valleys and rivers cutting through, lakes that end in massive waterfalls, etc). Something Incan. Cant think though. But maybe the tortles? Less warlike. Largely ignored by the other civs. More homogenious because of it. That could work nicely.

Turtles do get a wisdom and con bonus so they are sturdy and make for pretty nice monk likes.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
And yes, were-wasps kidnapping and enslaving laying their eggs in paralyzed members of the other races would be perfect.

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Fixed that for you.

:smalltongue:

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
Probably roll a few spiders into that just for flavor, but more likely have them hidden and preying on the nest inhabitants.

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For extra flavor, make the spiders wasp-mimics, who physically look like were-wasps and are able to vibrate their pedipalps in a way that matches the buzzing of wasp wings. Chemical camouflage rounds it out, so the wasp-spiders can move at will among the unsuspecting were-wasps.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
Still sort of want something to live in cities on the tops of the mountains, hidden in the clouds (the jungle area is largely high altitude, with deep valleys and rivers cutting through, lakes that end in massive waterfalls, etc).

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If your tropical area is mainly high-altitude, then the “jungle” will primarily be cloudforest rather than lowlands rainforest. Much cooler, more humid, but still rainy, so cold-blooded creatures would be at a severe disadvantage.

I would suggest vanara, which is a little further out from your original concept, but their fur would give them a competitive advantage at high altitude. If you want monks, vanara monks would be great—reclusive, mainly peaceable, with a few individuals willing to venture down to the warm lowlands for spiritual challenge and scholastic interest. Most of their society would be organized into temple complexes like dzongs, well-organized and well-defended. One does not mess with the dzongs.

You might also look into tepuis, which could give you some additional ideas.

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Originally Posted by Palanan

Fixed that for you.

:smalltongue:

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Oh, I know thats what they tend to do IRL, and no doubt there will be a few husks in the... hatchery? But if you were an intelligent wasp-person, why risk life and limb to impregnate a lizardfolk or yuan-ti and then have to drag them back to the nest, when you could bespell them and have them walk/slither back on their own. Then you can happily spend your time working them to the bone while the egg grows, before they burn out and you can paralyze them and throw them in the birthing pit.

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Originally Posted by Palanan

For extra flavor, make the spiders wasp-mimics, who physically look like were-wasps and are able to vibrate their pedipalps in a way that matches the buzzing of wasp wings. Chemical camouflage rounds it out, so the wasp-spiders can move at will among the unsuspecting were-wasps.

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So if I go the were-vermin route, I wont have just wasps. I would want all insectoid creatures. Beetles, wasps, dragonflies (I just remembered shedlings or whatever they are called!) etc. In that context, it makes more sense for spider-folk to be part of the society, but pushed to the edges. Mercenaries, or bounty hunters, just as happy to take payment from someone else, but with a slip of loyalty to other creatures with an exoskeleton. In a war, they would side with the insects, but only out of self preservation...

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Originally Posted by Palanan

If your tropical area is mainly high-altitude, then the “jungle” will primarily be cloudforest rather than lowlands rainforest. Much cooler, more humid, but still rainy, so cold-blooded creatures would be at a severe disadvantage.

I would suggest vanara, which is a little further out from your original concept, but their fur would give them a competitive advantage at high altitude. If you want monks, vanara monks would be great—reclusive, mainly peaceable, with a few individuals willing to venture down to the warm lowlands for spiritual challenge and scholastic interest. Most of their society would be organized into temple complexes like dzongs, well-organized and well-defended. One does not mess with the dzongs.

You might also look into tepuis, which could give you some additional ideas.

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I was trying to avoid talking about other parts of the world but its hard to get a concept across without everything there.

So these rainforests of mine, they straddle the equator. Surrounded by mountains on two sides, the region is almost arrowhead shaped, the point towards the centre of the continent (and the mountains) the base falling into the sea. Several rivers join to form a proxy for the Amazon river and basin.

My areas are pretty vast. This region is something like 3x the size of the amazon. It allows me to have a general region that is homogenious that I can run a campaign in without having to invent new global lore. This time people might want a desert campaign, guess we are running in the Bejeweled Sultanate at the heart of the great Topaz Ocean. That time it may be that people want a frostburn campaign, so off to Jarlheim we go. Standard medieval fantasy land is the collection of city states that make up Ivernia.

The Clouded Forests are the jungle area. The idea is that its very mountainous, but that there is enough lowland area to support dinosaur and lizardfolk populations. I play a little fast and loose with altitude temperature given that the gods are directly interfering with latitude based temp elsewhere. So where the rivers open into the sea (the Maw of Xotli), a series of straight sided mountain islands (like those you see in the south china sea) stand in the ocean. They hide pirate coves and sea trading villages, and are inhabited by raptorans and Hadozee (and some others). Where the islands stop, a vast underwater civilization begins, which allows for lots of sea based campaigns if I so choose.

Back the other way, inland, the forests steadily climb from sea level to mountain tops. In some places it rises faster, where the mountains that cut the region off fall directly into the sea. In others, like along the length of the main river, it rises slower. Plenty of land for warm creatures. But eventually, forest meets cloud level and I would like an Incan civilization there.

While I appreciate the suggestion of Tibetan monk villages, I need to state that there is another area of the world that focuses on that. Across the globe, there is a region that is very difficult to get to. Its land boarders are ringed by my proxy for the Himalayas, while the sea is a set of mountainous islands with near constant storms between them. The world suffered a cataclysmic event some 4000-5000 years ago (which affected the memory of long lived races, conveniently!) where all sorts of stuff happened. And one of the things was in this isolated region, the gods... died. And arcane magic went a bit screwy for a while. So they developed psionics instead. Now, if travelers go there, they will find that arcane magic and divine magic work fine there (though clerics will feel a totally fluff based, non-mechanical, muffling between them and their gods), but the local inhabitants will either use psionics, or unusual forms of arcane magic (wu-jen). This area is supposed to be a loose proxy for India in the south, China in the north, with Nepal and Tibet in the mountains. So if I was to put East Asian monks anywhere, it would be there.

Thats not to say monks dont exist elsewhere, but I advise my players to think of them as a mix between the martial arts of the far east, and the warrior monk groups of the crusades (the templars, hospitlars, etc), just unarmed (or monk weapons...) and unarmoured.

Sorry for the length. I have pages and pages of this stuff somewhere, and spend ages drawing maps. This world is supposed to be designed so once I am done (haha) I can just open a book and start playing.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
*snip*

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Sounds like you have a great deal already worked out, and it’s evidently quite a feat of world-building.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
So these rainforests of mine, they straddle the equator. Surrounded by mountains on two sides, the region is almost arrowhead shaped, the point towards the centre of the continent (and the mountains) the base falling into the sea. Several rivers join to form a proxy for the Amazon river and basin.

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Depending on the details, this could be a setup for some incredible mangrove forests where the rivers meet the ocean.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel
This time people might want a desert campaign, guess we are running in the Bejeweled Sultanate at the heart of the great Topaz Ocean. That time it may be that people want a frostburn campaign, so off to Jarlheim we go. Standard medieval fantasy land is the collection of city states that make up Ivernia.

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You’ve mentioned some of these regions before, and they all sound well-thought-out and thoroughly detailed. If you ever bring out a campaign setting, I’d love to take a look.

Im never going to publish, but when I at least get all the country maps made, I will be making a website I think, with lore and stuff. Mostly as a resource for my players, but also so I can post it here and get validation and such :smallbiggrin:

I wouldnt say its hugely well thought out though. Im not bad on the big details, but then get my self bogged down in the small minutia until I get bored. Was doing really well with the Topaz Ocean right up until I decided all the cities of the Bejeweled Sultanate should be named after gem stones in Arabic. Queue me spending FOREVER trying get them to look right. I burned out hard. In the end, I walked away for a few months, came back and found other names for them that "looked" Arabic in about an hour. Much happier. Had the same problem with my favorite area, where every town, every major NPC, every geographic feature, had a name properly comprised of anglo saxon or old norse suffixes and prefixes along with something relevant. It was blood sweat and literal tears. I was so excited to run it. The players didnt care. They didnt even notice. Thats when it clicked for me. If I am putting in the effort for this and NOT enjoying it, then there is no point, because the players see a tiny, tiny fraction of the work I put in, and enjoy it all just the same as if they saw all of it.

There are easter eggs, and things that if people are interested and ask about, I can provide more info on, but I am trying not to hate myself now whenever I do things. Having a D&D playing partner helps, because if I am agonizing over the placement of a tree icon when map making, she can look and say "babe, it looks the same whether its 50 px high or 51 pix high. Go to bed. Its 3am!". I promise Ill do a post soon with some of the maps I have done, and a little bit of lore.

All this bee-folk talk makes me think of a cool idea that they built this huge above ground hive but it was vulnerable to attack so they built a huge step pyramid to nearly completely cover it. Now the only entrance is at the top of the pyramid.

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Originally Posted by XionUnborn01

All this bee-folk talk makes me think of a cool idea that they built this huge above ground hive but it was vulnerable to attack so they built a huge step pyramid to nearly completely cover it. Now the only entrance is at the top of the pyramid.

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That is cool.

Well, Sarrukhs are a progenitor race that ultimately created the reptilian races. That feels pretty appropriate for a more ancient civilization in the jungle with the lesser reptiles.

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Originally Posted by Albions_Angel

Sorry for the length. I have pages and pages of this stuff somewhere, and spend ages drawing maps. This world is supposed to be designed so once I am done (haha) I can just open a book and start playing.

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I think more than a few of us are guilty of this. I have a few hundred pages of a campaign setting on an old hard drive. A setting that was used twice, both times for campaigns that died in less then 5 sessions due to outside life.

Two things to remember,
1) The perfect is the enemy of the good.
2) Don't let it become an obsession. After all, the players will screw it up in one session.