Re: Need help on monster CR
You're pretty close. I'd call it a CR 9 rather than 8, however, because its impressive AC, damage reduction, and spell immunity will tend to drag out a fight, and its ability to destroy items means that it is certain to wreak a lot of havoc during that time.
There are a couple of minor errors in your monster:
- You have listed the claws and bite at the same attack bonus, but secondary weapons take a -5 penalty to hit. The attack progression would thus be +14/+8/+8. If you want to optimize the monster, you might consider replacing Weapon Focus (bite) with Multiattack, which would produce a progression of +13/+11/+11.
- As an 8-HD monster, this should have three feats, not two. I'd recommend Iron Will for the third feat, to shore up the creature's extremely low Will save.
Also, some questions about the Eat Magic Item ability: does the monster need to be in possession of a magic item to eat it, or can it eat an item worn or wielded by an opponent? If it can eat an opponent's gear, what is the range of the ability? Does the monster need to roll to hit?
A cautionary note about this monster: because of its impressive defenses and the likelihood that the players will inadvertently give it extra hp by casting spells at it, a poorly optimized party might have difficulty harming this monster. However, because of its impressive speed and immunity to magic, they'll also have difficulty running away. You should always be cautious about using monsters that are hard to kill, hard to stop, and hard to escape from, because if the encounter proves tougher than expected, the PCs pretty much have to just take their beating.
Re: Need help on monster CR
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiriku
You're pretty close. I'd call it a CR 9 rather than 8, however, because its impressive AC, damage reduction, and spell immunity will tend to drag out a fight, and its ability to destroy items means that it is certain to wreak a lot of havoc during that time.
Yeah, CR 9 will probably be a better fit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiriku
There are a couple of minor errors in your monster:
- You have listed the claws and bite at the same attack bonus, but secondary weapons take a -5 penalty to hit. The attack progression would thus be +14/+8/+8. If you want to optimize the monster, you might consider replacing Weapon Focus (bite) with Multiattack, which would produce a progression of +13/+11/+11.
- Right you are. I always seem to forget that for some reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiriku
- As an 8-HD monster, this should have three feats, not two. I'd recommend Iron Will for the third feat, to shore up the creature's extremely low Will save.
Yeah, I think I forgot that it gets a feat at 1st level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiriku
Also, some questions about the Eat Magic Item ability: does the monster need to be in possession of a magic item to eat it, or can it eat an item worn or wielded by an opponent? If it can eat an opponent's gear, what is the range of the ability? Does the monster need to roll to hit?
The monster has to be in possession of the item, I'll be sure to clarify that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiriku
A cautionary note about this monster: because of its impressive defenses and the likelihood that the players will inadvertently give it extra hp by casting spells at it, a poorly optimized party might have difficulty harming this monster. However, because of its impressive speed and immunity to magic, they'll also have difficulty running away. You should always be cautious about using monsters that are hard to kill, hard to stop, and hard to escape from, because if the encounter proves tougher than expected, the PCs pretty much have to just take their beating.
A good point to bring up. I'm not too concerned about my party, since no one would call them poorly optimized, but it's a good caution for anyone else who might use it.
Re: Need help on monster CR
I'd say that if it needs to be in possession of the item, that makes it a far weaker threat than otherwise (since it has no good way to get said possession), but still probably a CR 10 or 11 (assuming a party for which most CRs are appropriate) simply because before that it's too difficult to get past both its extremely high (for lower levels) AC and its DR. The only reason it's not higher is because its attack is pretty weak for even that CR.
If it got Improved Disarm or some other way to steal magic weapons, I'd give it a CR of at least 14 or 15.
Re: Need help on monster CR
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jiriku
You're pretty close. I'd call it a CR 9 rather than 8, however, because its impressive AC, damage reduction, and spell immunity will tend to drag out a fight, and its ability to destroy items means that it is certain to wreak a lot of havoc during that time.
There are a couple of minor errors in your monster:
- As an 8-HD monster, this should have three feats, not two. I'd recommend Iron Will for the third feat, to shore up the creature's extremely low Will save.
of course, as its immune to most magic... what else requires a will save?
and why is the armor class so ridiculously high? Its put up their by natural armor twice as effective as plate --- and has damage reduction on top of it. It seems like a good way to extend an encounter-- hard to hit, hard to damage when you hit (really, how are you going to dammage it? magic doesn't work, including dammage, and power attacks won't hit it, yet it can't really tear the charactar apart.
then again, the best response is a dog pile. buff the fighter up, and have him pin the thing, maybe throw someone else on there as well. I don't know if you realized thats its weakness.
Re: Need help on monster CR
It is weak aginsts SR: no, touch attack spells, but other than those it would be rather hard to kill at level 10(unless the group has an adamant weapon wielding high str character[really high str, 26+(for a +8 bonus to attacks)])
Re: Need help on monster CR
Maybe tune down the A.C and damage resistance a little?
or break out the chainsaw shameless plug.
Re: Need help on monster CR
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Togath
[FONT="Book Antiqua"][SIZE="2"]It is weak aginsts SR: no, touch attack spells
True, but there are something like only 2 of those (and one a cantrip) available before extremely high levels, assuming whoever's playing it doesn't have more than Core. So if he hasn't prepared Acid Arrow that day, you're in trouble.
And an enemy that can't be beaten with just Core (plus campaign-specific homebrew) is too powerful except for use on a case-by-case basis.
Re: Need help on monster CR
I think with Absorb Magic the question is: can a 9th level fighter have an okay chance to do that thing on his own? Because then, it should be fair for party with a rogue in addition and casters to buff that fighter.
For fun, I just created a fighter.
The fighter and the "average fight" against the Frask in spoiler. A bit long and probably not interesting for everyone:
Spoiler
Show
Durin the 9th level Dwarven Fighter:
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus
Attacks: Guisarme: 9+4Str+2feat+2bonus : +17/+12 for 2d4+10 /x3
(Armor Spikes: +14/+9 for 1d4+4 /x2)
AC: 10+10AC+1Dex+1Dodge+1insight+2Nat+3def = 28
HPs: 9d10+45 = 99
Saves: 13/7/5
Expandables:
2 Tanglefoot Bags
Potions: Invisibility, 5x Cure light wounds, Shield of faith +3 (Included), Blur
Ye olde Spring attack/reach weapon fighter.
And an old fashioned dwarf wields no fantastic chain like a biker, if there are good old polearms available.
I'm taking average circumstances: The fighter has an idea of his opponents strengths and weaknesses but does not have an adamantine weapon.
The fight:
The two combatants see each other from some distance, enough for Durin to wet his pants or dring his potions of Shield of faith +3 and Blur.
Durin starts the fight with a tanglefoot bag. In 1/4 all cases the Frask is glued to the ground and needs about 2 rounds to break free. But the Frask has -2 attack and -4 Dex and half speed, what was the idea of it. With boots of speed, Durin has a slight speed advantage which he uses to get his first spring attack in (from distance back to 15 ft distance)
He uses a moderate 2 Combat expertise 2 Power attack, knowing that the monster has both Natural armor and Damage resistance.
+13 vs. 28-2 AC : 40% hit chance for 2d4+4 damage (average 5).
The Frask angrily attacks charges and suffers an AoO for his movement. Durin estimates that trip attacks might not work that goos against a strong 4-legged creature (actually, it's +17 vs +17) and attacks again, this time for 50% hit prob.
The Frask bites with +13+2-2 vs AC 30 : 20% hit for 1d8+7 damage (average 11.5) 20% of all hits are negated by the Blur potion.
After a few rounds, Durin will notice, the Frask hit's bad but not "nat 20"-bad, yet and goes to Combat Expertise 5, reducing the Frask's hit% to 5%, 15% after the two tanglefoot bags (always charges). He hits 35%, 25% later (he chooses not to change power attack (down to 25%/20% would be better, but he has only a rough knowledge of the damage reduction so he does not know)
So, let's count the HPs.
10 rounds tanglefooted:
Durin average 2 * 0.35 *5 = 3.5 damage.
Frask average 1 * 0.05 * 11.5 *0.8 = 0.46 damage
Afterwards:
Durin average 2 * 0.25 *5 = 2.5 damage.
Frask average 1* 0.15 * 11.5 *0.8 = 1.38 damage
At 25% HPs Durin 5ft-steps, drinks invisibility, followed by runs/moves to get out of sense magic range, then 5d8+5 = 25.5 hp from the cures.
So they have: Durin 124.5 hp, Frask 76 hp.
Thus, Durin needs 26.4 turns in average to kill the Frask (not counting the invisible rounds, only those he attacks)
The Frask needs 86.88 turns in average to kill Durin.
I think it's pretty sure, who you place your bets on here. Two levels down, let me estimate ... Durin's effective damage output should halve while that of the Frask doubles, considering equipment, feats and BAB.
Now with 53 vs. 43 turns (rough estimate), this is "some chance" for the fighter but with a little luck, maybe one or two lucky criticals, he could do it.
Now at level 7 buffed also with Aid, Enlarge person, Bull's strength and Heroism and possibly with a flanking buddy, or conjurations that allow no spell resistance, I see clearly enough possibilities. Not exactly save (for example: What if the fighter of the group dual-wields?), probably, but still I say:
Definitly no CR 9. Either a weak 8 or a strong 7.