How're these spells for flavor?

Lesser Fatum
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Clr 1
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long
Area: none
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes

Both the target and the caster automatically learn the target's maximum lifespan.

Fatum
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Clr 3
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long
Area: none
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

The target will die in 10 years. After this happens, it will become impossible to resurrect him (even by Wish or Miracle). If he dies within this time, he can be raised normally. Every day, the target must make a Will Save against a DC of 20+spell level+your relevant casting stat modifier at the time you cast the spell - how much he has left to live (in years, rounded down). If he fails, he will be shaken until the next day.

This effect cannot be removed except by casting Greater Fatum on the target, and is not magical in nature (it still takes effect if the target dies in an AMF).

Material component: the caster's life. After the spell is cast, no matter if it succeeds or fails, the caster dies.

Greater Fatum
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long
Area: none
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: no
Spell Resistance: Yes

The target will die in 366 days. If he dies within this time, he can be raised normally. After this happens, his soul will be destroyed. The target will also be permanently shaken after this point.

If Fatum was cast on the target, it is removed. Greater Fatum cannot be removed, and its effect is not magical in nature (it still takes effect if the target dies in an AMF).

Material component: the caster's life. After the spell is cast, no matter if it succeeds or fails, the caster dies.

How interesting would it be for a player to RP a character that has any of the above spells cast upon himself?

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Originally Posted by Phosphate

Fatum
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Clr 3
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long
Area: none
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes

The target will die in 10 years. After this happens, it will become impossible to resurrect him (even by Wish or Miracle). Every day, the target must make a Will Save against a DC of 20+spell level+your relevant casting stat modifier at the time you cast the spell - how much he has left to live (in years, rounded down). If he fails, he will be shaken until the next day.

Greater Fatum
Divination
Level: Sor/Wiz 6, Clr 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long
Area: none
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: no
Spell Resistance: Yes

The target will die in 366 days. After this happens, his soul will be destroyed. The target will also be permanently shaken after this point.

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How do these two interact with each other? And can they die before the set time? Also, you should add the [death] tag, because certain creatures with immunity to death effects shouldn't be affected by this.

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Originally Posted by Madara

How do these two interact with each other? And can they die before the set time? Also, you should add the [death] tag, because certain creatures with immunity to death effects shouldn't be affected by this.

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Added: "If he dies within this time, he can be raised normally"

And yes, creatures with immunity to death SHOULD be affected by this. I want it to be impossible to escape.

The spells make no sense. How does a divination spell kill someone, stop them from being brought back to life and sicken them? Even worse the spells are low level! And even worse the spells are hard to remove and are non magical!

Well, if you were trying to make the most silly and broken spells ever, then the spells will work fine. They would never work in any normal by-the-rules D20 game. For example in a normal game you can't have 'non-magical magic' and you can't make it almost impossible to remove a magic effect(and divination spells can't have the effects of necromancy spells and so on)

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Originally Posted by Phosphate

And yes, creatures with immunity to death SHOULD be affected by this. I want it to be impossible to escape.

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What about creatures with no life expectancy? Like Undead, or Golems. I'll just stick one of these on a wand(Artificer) and spam it on everyone(No save), and come back in a little over a year and loot the corpses of everyone in the country!

If you're really going to have it affect everyone, and be impossible to escape, give it at least a save. Fort: Yes

Otherwise, these are seriously overpowered(Except the first one)

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Greater Fatum cannot be removed, and is not magical in nature (it still takes effect if the target dies in an AMF).

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Just make it instantaneous rather than permanent. Also, you kinda just call a spell not magical in nature :smallsigh:

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Originally Posted by bloodtide

Well, if you were trying to make the most silly and broken spells ever, then the spells will work fine. They would never work in any normal by-the-rules D20 game. For example in a normal game you can't have 'non-magical magic' and you can't make it almost impossible to remove a magic effect(and divination spells can't have the effects of necromancy spells and so on)

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I do not intend those spells to be for PC use. They're just to give a good excuse to have PCs AFFECTED by them to see how their play modifies to keep in sync with their fast-approaching demise.

As for spells with inherently nonmagical effects...why do you think Telekinesis is the best blasting spell by far?

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Originally Posted by Madara

Otherwise, these are seriously overpowered(Except the first one)

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Which is my intent.

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Also, you kinda just call a spell not magical in nature :smallsigh:

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Every action is either EX, SP, PSI, or SU. Spellcasting is Ex.

So all level 7 (and up) clerics can kill anything that they can beat the SR of? Have fun with the party using Greater Fatum on all your BBEG and then buggering off for a year.

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Originally Posted by pffh

So all level 7 (and up) clerics can kill anything that they can beat the SR of? Have fun with the party using Greater Fatum on all your BBEG and then buggering off for a year.

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That's why houseruling is fun ;).

If these are basically DM Fiat For Plot, then why even bother giving them stats?

Setting aside power for a bit, don't you think a spell like this should be a little more... epic? Not in the sense of the epic spellcasting rules, but it feels like it should require either a certain amount of time or a ritual or a rare component or something. It would be hard to explain why the caster doesn't spam Greater Fatum on all of his enemies, if only to guarantee that they don't get away with anything.

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The target will die in 366 days. If he dies within this time, he can be raised normally. After this happens, his soul will be destroyed. The target will also be permanently shaken after this point.

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I feel like there should be some more details here. What does it mean to be 'raised normally' if your soul is destroyed? Does that mean that you die instantly after being raised, or that you become some kind of soulless creature? It seems like an interesting effect but it needs a little bit more detail or clarification for me to understand what it will do.

As far as schools go, I definitely see the second two spells as more 'Necromancy' than 'Divination'. The first one is clearcut divination, but these spells don't really reveal anything -- they actually cause the death of the caster directly. You might as well say that Fireball is a divination spell because it enables the caster to predict that someone is about to get a fireball thrown at them this round.

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I do not intend those spells to be for PC use. They're just to give a good excuse to have PCs AFFECTED by them to see how their play modifies to keep in sync with their fast-approaching demise.

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That's a very interesting concept and it seems like it would be fun to play with. Have you considered just making this a special curse that the PCs are under then? The reason to stat out things like this is if the players have some way of combating it, evading it, or managing the effects in some way. Since it's clearly designed to be invincible, you might as well just rely on DM fiat rather than trying to mechanically represent an irresistible, indomitable, inevitable fate.

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Originally Posted by PersonMan

If these are basically DM Fiat For Plot, then why even bother giving them stats?

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Because SR. And because Shaken can be overcome.

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Originally Posted by Steward

Setting aside power for a bit, don't you think a spell like this should be a little more... epic? Not in the sense of the epic spellcasting rules, but it feels like it should require either a certain amount of time or a ritual or a rare component or something. It would be hard to explain why the caster doesn't spam Greater Fatum on all of his enemies, if only to guarantee that they don't get away with anything.

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Sure. Make a setting where the heroes gotta stop the evil cleric from killing everyone.

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I feel like there should be some more details here. What does it mean to be 'raised normally' if your soul is destroyed? Does that mean that you die instantly after being raised, or that you become some kind of soulless creature? It seems like an interesting effect but it needs a little bit more detail or clarification for me to understand what it will do.

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Your soul is destroyed after 366 days. In the MEANTIME, so before 366 days pass, you are raised normally as in - Raise Dead, Ressurect and all the others work exactly as their text says they work.

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As far as schools go, I definitely see the second two spells as more 'Necromancy' than 'Divination'. The first one is clearcut divination, but these spells don't really reveal anything -- they actually cause the death of the caster directly. You might as well say that Fireball is a divination spell because it enables the caster to predict that someone is about to get a fireball thrown at them this round.

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Not the same thing. I view Divination as being able of both foreseeing and manipulating destiny. For instance an effect similar to Death Note (dead in 40 seconds or dead in 23 days, doesn't matter) would be Divination.

Necromancy is just channeling positive and negative energy - therefore unrelated.

To address your original question, I'm less than thrilled with the idea of roleplaying a character afflicted by such a spell, mostly because you seem determined to slap a mechanical penalty on something that is ultimately a plot point.
And if you're convinced you NEED have Shaken in there, do it like this;

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GM: Dust, the cleric grabs your forearm with a gnarled hand and the pain is suddenly beyond excruciating. Your eyes roll back in your head uncontrollably and you think you can even faintly smell burning flesh - it reminds you a little bit of sizzling, smoky bacon. There's sounds like shouting....your allies?...but it's from so far off. Your mind is filled with images of the future, a cruel knowledge that the Cleric has not just imparted unto you, you understand, but a destiny that he has created. You see yourself being bound and tied behind a moving cart...objects are hurled at you, leering faces loom and screech at you. Your legacy will be forgotten. You will die in 366 days.
Dust: Uh, wow. What in the name of Pelor's radiant junk was THAT?
GM: Then his hand is gone and you're back in the cathedral, and you can feel a still-smoldering black mark on your arm where he grabbed you. You're Shaken for the remainder of this encounter, and future events that remind you of what you saw might also impart that penalty.

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What if my character doesn't fear death? What if knowing the date of my demise will only help motivate me to finish everything that needs to be done before then? Why should I still take a -2 penalty to Listen and Appraise and EVERYTHING?
If you want to make this something players can use, then you've succeeded, though I'm not sure why that would be a design goal. If you wanted a plot spell, it would be way more interesting if it was a reasonable amount of time and you chose not to punish players with hefty penalties for no reason other than choosing to participate in the campaign.

Edit: This sounds more pessimistic than I intended, so to clarify - I'm all for the idea of rapidly-approaching demise via a nasty spell. That would be neat, and hell, I've done the exact same thing myself to a player. But to make it a good story you need a loophole, a way to overcome the curse or at least accomplish your goals before the time is up, and you need to ditch the descriptor that implies the PCs are under constant jittery fear, which is nonsensical knowing that they still have months of time left.

These spells seem very vindictive. If you want a spell for killing your pc's, you can make it whatever the heck you want and don't even have to write it up at all, and you certainly don't have to post it to stroke your ego.
Besides, forcing someone to play their character on a death clock is only fun if they agree to it.

Hmmm. Let's see if you understand this correctly:
These spells don't actually kill the the PCs. They just figure out when they will die/change the odds so that they die on schedule. That's why it's not a magical effect: the characters who die from this aren't killed by the spell, they're killed by the spell redirecting a meteor to their house, or something like that. That being said,

1. The duration should be instant. Immediately, you know when the sucker is going to die/the spell goes and causes that death. The spell doesn't keep working forever.

2. These spell should probably be higher level (well, the second two). You mean, a third level spell that can stop divine intervention (that is, in game terms, what miracle is)? Might want to bump that up a bit.

3. None of these are very personal. The casting time is short and you can hit someone with it from the next county. And if someone wants to hit you with it, there's nothing you can do, other than contingency (a much higher level and more expensive spell, might you add). Why not:

a. Give it a longer casting time. You usually can't just point at someone and lay your ultimate doom curse on them.
b. Include some rare material component. Like, say a piece of the intended victim. Or the caster's death.
c. Make it dependent on some external circumstance: planetary alignments, religious holidays, days when ancient prophecies are fulfilled, etc...
d. Make it a touch spell.

You do like where this goes RP wise, you just think the spell should be harder to cast than lightning bolt, not easier. You also don't mind that this is divination (if your interpretation is correct). Divination is supposed to be a really scary field, dealing with things necromancy can't or won't touch. It's past time it got some love.

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Originally Posted by Phosphate

Because SR. And because Shaken can be overcome.

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The question is, if you want to have this as a plot thing, will you really just give it up because the caster rolled a 3 on their CL check?

I have to agree with other people which have said that the Shaken isn't really the most sensible thing to attach to this, but I also don't at all see why it needs stats.

"X casts a spell, you're going to die in Y days. Oh, and you're Shaken."
"I cast Remove Fear."
"It works."

Doesn't really need stats.

Also what will you say to the PC's when they attempt to get copies of this spell for their casters, and then use it in every encounter they want?

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Originally Posted by Phosphate

Not the same thing. I view Divination as being able of both foreseeing and manipulating destiny. For instance an effect similar to Death Note (dead in 40 seconds or dead in 23 days, doesn't matter) would be Divination.

Necromancy is just channeling positive and negative energy - therefore unrelated.

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Firstly your view of Divination isn't DND's view at. In the SRD it says this:

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Divinations: Spells that reveal information.

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Only the first spell revealed information. The last two kill the person and then damage there souls. Which would be destroying life and lifeforce now lets look at what the SRD says about Necromancy:

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Necromancy: Spells that manipulate, create, or destroy life or life force.

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Spells need to be much higher level. They should cost a lot of XP to cast, and Wish or Miracle should allow them to be removed. I sort of see why they are divination but it is definitely stretching it. And divination is already slightly overpowered because diviners only need to have a single banned school (which makes sense when one only has core spells but not others).

In most contexts, this probably should be purely plot, not at all statted out.

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Originally Posted by Dust

What if my character doesn't fear death? What if knowing the date of my demise will only help motivate me to finish everything that needs to be done before then? Why should I still take a -2 penalty to Listen and Appraise and EVERYTHING?

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Simple. Because if you DO not fear death (or not fear death in a particular day) then you will make your will save. Basically that is what your save represents.

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If you want to make this something players can use, then you've succeeded, though I'm not sure why that would be a design goal.

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Um, no, I won't let players use it. There are always things that MUST be banned when you play - don't forget, you can with a hefty number of tricks become a rank 20 deity at level 1.

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If you wanted a plot spell, it would be way more interesting if it was a reasonable amount of time and you chose not to punish players with hefty penalties for no reason other than choosing to participate in the campaign.

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Which is precisely why I'll only use it on players who agree to be under it, OR botch the caster check on purpose when the Baddie casts it.

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and you need to ditch the descriptor that implies the PCs are under constant jittery fear, which is nonsensical knowing that they still have months of time left.

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Nonsensical? Have you ever talked to people with late stages of cancer?

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Originally Posted by togapika

These spells seem very vindictive. If you want a spell for killing your pc's, you can make it whatever the heck you want and don't even have to write it up at all, and you certainly don't have to post it to stroke your ego.

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This is not my intent in the least. I will NEVER use those spells in a campaign that lasts more than a year in-game. Actually, the entire point is that the character is under the gloom of death for the entire duration of the adventure, but his actual demise will take place somewhere in the epilogue.

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Besides, forcing someone to play their character on a death clock is only fun if they agree to it.

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Well, obviously :smallconfused:.

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Originally Posted by Doppelganger

the characters who die from this aren't killed by the spell, they're killed by the spell redirecting a meteor to their house, or something like that.

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Nope. They die because their maximum age has been reduced and they reach it. And that is precisely the point - the way characters can no longer be raised after a "maximum" age in D&D is entirely supernatural (and nonmagically supernatural I might add). It has nothing to do with life force or biology or whatever. In real life, for instance, if you live a lot your body WILL stop aging (senescence will halt, apoptosis will no longer happen, your yearly risk of dying will no longer increase, though obviously it is very high already). It varies from person to person, but it usually takes effect when you are about 105 years old. But that's in the REAL WORLD. In D&D, since immunity to disease is easy to get, cancer does not exist and even the lowest clerics can remove all your ailments with a couple slots in a couple rounds, there's no non-supernatural excuse for this maximum age concept existing.

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1. The duration should be instant. Immediately, you know when the sucker is going to die/the spell goes and causes that death. The spell doesn't keep working forever.

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Eh, I thought about it again and yeah, maybe I should make them instant.

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2. These spell should probably be higher level (well, the second two). You mean, a third level spell that can stop divine intervention (that is, in game terms, what miracle is)? Might want to bump that up a bit.

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If they are too high level I couldn't justify them being negated if the party member that initially agreed to be under their effect suddenly changes his mind.

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a. Give it a longer casting time. You usually can't just point at someone and lay your ultimate doom curse on them.
b. Include some rare material component. Like, say a piece of the intended victim. Or the caster's death.
c. Make it dependent on some external circumstance: planetary alignments, religious holidays, days when ancient prophecies are fulfilled, etc...
d. Make it a touch spell.

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a. Since you'd have to be within line of sight to affect someone with it, if it's anything above a full round action the caster will botch his Concentrations over and over trying to get it through.
b. Caster's death....actually, that is a BRILLIANT idea :D. Added.
c. Then I'll just be lazy and make the campaign begin on a specific day. No need.
d. How does that change anything?

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Originally Posted by PersonMan

The question is, if you want to have this as a plot thing, will you really just give it up because the caster rolled a 3 on their CL check?

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If nobody wants to be under the effect, I will ACT like he rolled a 3.

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"X casts a spell, you're going to die in Y days. Oh, and you're Shaken."
"I cast Remove Fear."
"It works."

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Yep, casting Remove Fear to get rid of shaken is perfectly valid. This is intended, though somewhat bland.

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Originally Posted by togapika

Also what will you say to the PC's when they attempt to get copies of this spell for their casters, and then use it in every encounter they want?

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Q: What do YOU say to people when they want to buy ladders and sell the poles for infinite gold and firewood? A: No :D.

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Originally Posted by Milo v3

Only the first spell revealed information etc

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Yep, because True Strike, Arcane Eye, Telepathic Bond and Moment of Prescience fit that description perfectly.

Plus, as I said, Fatum has nothing to do with life force.

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Originally Posted by JoshuaZ

Spells need to be much higher level. They should cost a lot of XP to cast, and Wish or Miracle should allow them to be removed. I sort of see why they are divination but it is definitely stretching it. And divination is already slightly overpowered because diviners only need to have a single banned school (which makes sense when one only has core spells but not others).

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I only care about PCs being overpowered. Not about enemy NPCs being overpowered. Mainly because PCs can do pretty much anything to abuse their powers, whereas NPCs are directed by you and therefore can be kept under control.

I'm not sure I like the idea of spells which can only be used by NPCs, it just seems kind of cheap. Also the first spell seems too low level. It's not very powerful but the effect is just something that a third level caster should not be able to do.

As for the other spells, they seem fair now, and I could see them working for NPCs, though PCs would probably not use them, but should still be given the option.

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Yep, because True Strike, Arcane Eye, Telepathic Bond and Moment of Prescience fit that description perfectly.

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True Strike reveals the best possible result of you attacking and how that goal was achieved. You replicate what information was given to you and you hit. Your Divinining the future to a minor extent which is revealing information.
Arcane Eye creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you visual information. Thus revealing information.
Telepathic bond sends information between two people.
Moment of Prescience is like true sight and reveals how to do it best in that specific instance.

So they do fit Divination.

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Plus, as I said, Fatum has nothing to do with life force.

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You say that it forces people to die by age and thus is non-magical. How do the targets actually die though. If you cast Fatum on a 1 year old baby, you are forcing it to die of old age at ten.

This spell forces them to die from age regardless of what age they are, this means it must reduce the maximum age of a creature. Divination can't do that. Only Necromancy (Via slow life force drain) and Transmutation (By making it age faster than normal) would be able to do it.

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Nope. They die because their maximum age has been reduced and they reach it.

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So it shouldn't work on things that don't have a maximum age, I.E. Undead or such :smallamused:

I didn't really like this the first time I read it, but the death component won me over. I can totally see the dramatic implications of that. The aged mystic, knowing that his death is near, uses up what little is left of his life to doom his killer. It works for both a hero or a villain; a heroic character -- perhaps a wise old mentor NPC -- might volunteer to sacrifice her own life as a last-ditch effort to ensure that the bad guy if more conventional attacks won't work. Or, if the caster is evil, they might be a bad guy at the end of their rope, content to ensure that the person who finally put them down won't long outlive them.

When the caster dies, can they be later resurrected? I can see a Contingency spell being used to bring the caster back to life, or else the caster may be resurrected by his or her allies. (Though if the target of the spell realizes what happened, they might find and remove/destroy the Contingency spell's focus before the caster dies to ensure that s/he doesn't come back!)

Yeah, I'm a convert too. The school logic is a little tortured for my tastes but it's not like the game rules themselves usually make sense. Divination, Necromancy... it really would only matter if the spell was available to players. Since it's NPC only, the players will never have to worry about the school and the school doesn't seem to have any effect on its mechanics. Adding the 'death of the caster' requirement is a major game-changer in my view.

It turns it into something darker and more dramatic, and frankly that's worth more to me than the school of the spell.

I think these should all be Touch range, or at very least Short. You should be able to put a curse on someone from a mile away that WILL kill him. SR isn't easy for PCs to get, and since there's no save, well, basically I'm agreeing that there's no point in statting these out. There's very few ways to defend against it, and they're not easy to get for several levels above when the villian can cast it. You want your players to be inflicted with a death-curse, then do it, you're the DM, you don't need to justify anything with an overpowered spell the PCs will never be able to cast.

What if a Lich casts this? Technically, he doesn't have a life, and he's already died. Can he sacrifice a minion?

And the save on Fatum is ridiculous. It's not at all unreasonable to assume the DC will be about 27ish, which for 5th level PCs is pretty high - A 5th level Cleric will have a base of around +9 Will, so they only save 10% of the time, and besides Clerics and Druids, everyone else is shaken 95% of the time. At 15th level, the Cleric should pass it most of the time, but any class with low Will will still be struggling to make it even half the time.

The Shaken effect does make the assumption that the target will be afraid to die, but that's not true with all cultures or people. Some people will be calm knowing their time is coming. Either way, it doesn't make terribly much sense to be fretting for 10 years every day til you die. Not to mention, since fear effects stack, they're one spell or ability away from running in terror, every day.

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Originally Posted by Phosphate

Q: What do YOU say to people when they want to buy ladders and sell the poles for infinite gold and firewood? A: No :D.

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I say that the time spent converting them to useable poles wouldn't be worth the money... or that the poles would be so crappy as to not be useable.
This situation however, is quite different.

These are absurdly overpowered, or at least Greater Fatum is.

You know this.

Why are we commenting on it? I can't really say anything about "plot device" spells that are meant to be broken because, well, there's no commentary to make. You don't want criticism on the power and we can't really tell you that they don't fit your story, so there's nothing to say.

EDIT: And yes, I know that the caster dies. So what? True res components and a friend is a lot easier to get than a new soul.

I think a mechanical evaluation isn't really going to work here. This seems like it's only meant to be evaluated for flavor (though I do agree it's a little hard to do that without knowing more details about the context of its use).